We Need Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 5 After All! - GAME OVER

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

Also, as for bringing up Via's unhappiness with me, I'll remind you that we've literally had dead villas pop back in to express frustration with you. If you're to suggest anything to me, I you look ought to look in the mirror, boyo.

I'm at athena -> Evan with Evan shooting Mak for good measure, maybe Blitz. I'm off tomorrow, going to stew on my V reads and POE, try to just keep an open mind about everything without going into tinfoil mode. And want to see what Blitz says.

[Refa]

Maybe I'm townreading Evan too much for his claim and I'm totally off base on Fable, actually.  I don't know, I didn't bother rereading and I'm not doing so until tomorrow.

[Refa]

2 minutes ago, Alette said:

No, fake claiming is something that I think can get complex depending on the player. I'm not really a fan of this 

I think this is unfair considering you're basically saying that I can't read into anyones' claim unless I know their meta.

[Alette]

2 minutes ago, Refa said:

I think this is unfair considering you're basically saying that I can't read into anyones' claim unless I know their meta.

Maybe it is unfair, but even if I don't know the person I generally think fake claiming is complex

[Makaze]

3 minutes ago, Blitz said:

Okay, role analysis, this may be completely useless, but who cares, this is me being myself

 

Town flipped roles:

1. Via - 1 shot cop (that is all that matters anyways, IMO). Has to do a lot of things just to gain it and only 2 chances of getting it and is a OS, so, I would assume this role doesn't need a counter

2. Snike/Mr. Gundam - Vanilla. Pretty sure this does not need a counter

3. Kaoz - hook+doc, however doesn't prevent killing roles from acting. I assume this is to prevent ITP (who I am guessing is an SK variant?) and mafia (more near lategame for maf members) members from being caught easily. The point of time I am in, I am assuming this role is not strong enough to stop 2 killing forces every night and town has some other power role that can do something more useful than the previous 2 roles up there...

4. Mack - martyr who cannot be protected. So, basically the town safeguard, who also can die for his target. This shows mafia probably has multiple messing roles. This role kinda covers up for the 2nd kill issue that Kaoz needed back up on, however, does not fully do it due to lack of being able to be protected. I would assume some other role exists, probably OS that can protect

(Not trying to form a defense, but I can see my role working well with both these roles to stop kills)

5. Barto - Reflexive disabler. High risk, very high reward. It can in theory block mafia or SK from acting the night after. It can also ruin the roles of townies... I would say this makes up for protective role shortage mentioned for Kaoz/Mack

6. Eury - JOAT with unknown roles. Not having any idea on what each role will do is bad. It could be the best role in the game, but it certainly is not more useful in effectiveness than a vanilla. Should not need a counter

7. BBM - insomniac. Slightly better than a vanilla, but very slightly

8. Arcanite - announcer. slightly worse than an insomniac. Surely better than a vanill.... not really

 

 

Flipped Scum:

1. Junko - compulsive roleblocker - the compulsive IMO is a disadvantage for being caught by roles like tracker/watcher. Makes me think those roles are more likely town. The mass hook is really powerful, but needs two people from faction dead... 

2. Shinori - inventor with hijack/vanillizer/immunity to hijack/roleblocks along with a 3 shot delayed strongman. Strongman works well against the doctor roles and the 3 roles work very well to look townie. Except the hijack, but I would think saving that for a buddy would be more productive. Roles that can counter well would be cop types. Watcher/tracker would also help. 

3. JB - rogue and janitor - blocks people from targeting self, blocks people being killed from targeting self. 

Analysis on scum role, every role blocks or redirects in some way. Shinori is the special protection destroyer while JB creates mischief. Yes, info role is missing from maf side, but do they need it? They have enough mischief and blocks on their side, IMO Though, I would say there is a little too much and town needs better roles. I am gonna need to read up on the claimed roles sometime later, I need to sleep now.

BUT, I do want to say, the SK probably has immunity to roleblocks to protect against the mafia and a good townie sounding role to blend in to town. I would not assume it to be a neighnorizer or a vanilla esq role, it should be something better, IMO. Based on this theory, I do not see Fable as an ITP SK. The ITP's passive should be hookproof. It also should not have extra kills on it, but bookie could be a good fake claim, no?

Will try to rest of analysis tomorrow... (I am basically throwing around role specs, which I love doing)

Bookie is not a fakeclaim IMO. The way it was claimed and has been vetted makes it very likely.

See my post on the likely ITP claim here:

On 4/24/2018 at 12:19 AM, Makaze said:

3 minutes ago, Killthestory said:

well i'm a villa, so using him going into defense mode and comparing it to me just makes me want to townread him LOL. anyway, i think we shouldn't dismiss players, again, because of ingrown inhibitions that will fuck us over in the long run. 

anyway, yeah, i know, but that was my main thing with him. self watcher and delayer trying to draw out an nk doesn't sound bad to me at all? that's super ideal if your role isn't outted and if you're trying to help town, why does that come across as scummy? i'd imagine him going into defense mode if he felt your argument was baseless and bad, and the ate would make sense there. why is his argument bad? 

idk, if he was, he'd just push me and say "this isn't kills villa range lol" because nobody knows how i play. plus, if he were scum, he'd probably try to use my emotions against me and rile me up rather than trying to create a no drama atmosphere by saying "oh yeah kill isn't actually that angry." that doesn't feel very wolfy to me? he's tried for evan, walrein, you, and athena. that's not bad considering i disagree with you and athena on principle, so why is his poe bad either? 

what do you mean? scum struggle to have good and consistent scumreads? having no scumreads is usually a scumtell, but i don't think refa is like a super newbie. regardless of that, i was being pressed today for not having scumreads having been busy, but we give certain players passes that have reasonable potential to be ITP's when we're trying to win the game? it doesn't make sense. having trouble formulating proper scumreads is scummy, and i don't really care who you are. the only push i've seen today was this half baked shitstorm against me. 

Actually, first Marth claimed the role, all the way. Then, soon after Omega subbed in, I asked him to claim his role. He did so without complaint. His exact words were "Self-watcher/delayer".

And THEN he said that he was trying to draw the NK in his defense post.

I agree with you if he had not claimed.

3 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Why is it likely that kaoz empowered ITP, again?

Kaoz died despite being targeted by Mack, according to Walrein's claim. So whoever shot Kaoz went through a Martyr.

 

Just now, Refa said:

I think the claim is real, regardless of his alignment.  I think the way he claimed is null.  I'm more apprehensive about Fable because of his interactions w/flipped mafia and especially his Arcanite defense on D3.  Like overall, I'd say the slot is more likely to be town but he's like my weakest townread.

I simply can't accept that it's null. You have to interpret it one way or another. This attitude towards being unable to read intents is anathema to me, and it's why I am so confident in my reads. Nothing is null, except for someone commenting on role spec or giving helpful advice about site features. People claiming is always at least somewhat AI depending on timing.

Like I said, not worth debating, you're just going to keep being wrong because the reasons you should townread certain people won't stick. You might be right some of the time, but you're going to get incorrect reads a lot if you don't even have consider your empathetic instincts, let alone trust them.

[Makaze]

8 minutes ago, Omega. said:

Also, as for bringing up Via's unhappiness with me, I'll remind you that we've literally had dead villas pop back in to express frustration with you. If you're to suggest anything to me, I you look ought to look in the mirror, boyo.

I'm at athena -> Evan with Evan shooting Mak for good measure, maybe Blitz. I'm off tomorrow, going to stew on my V reads and POE, try to just keep an open mind about everything without going into tinfoil mode. And want to see what Blitz says.

I'm going to take that to heart, because I have been pretty hard to play with, but I don't think it's for not trying. I owe an apology to most people I have gotten killed. However, I don't necessarily think I could have done anything better, other than just not subbing in. Meh.

I don't buy that you're scumreading me.

[Refa]

1 minute ago, Alette said:

Maybe it is unfair, but even if I don't know the person I generally think fake claiming is complex

It is, but I'm not planning on scumreading him based on how he claimed anyways.  I'm moreso saying "I could see Scum!Fable making this claim, so I'm going to reread him on the next day to see if I'm right about him".

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I simply can't accept that it's null. You have to interpret it one way or another. This attitude towards being unable to read intents is anathema to me, and it's why I am so confident in my reads. Nothing is null, except for someone commenting on role spec or giving helpful advice about site features. People claiming is always at least somewhat AI depending on timing.

Like I said, not worth debating, you're just going to keep being wrong because the reasons you should townread certain people won't stick. You might be right some of the time, but you're going to get incorrect reads a lot if you don't even have consider your empathetic instincts, let alone trust them.

It's null for me.  I can't get a strong read off of it, and I'm not going to force it.  I used to try to force opinions on things and just ended up being wrong a lot of the time.

I mean, my play has issues but it's moreso because I townread people too easily and am forced to reevaluate those townreads later on in the game, and when I do have to do that, I have a hard time sifting through which ones are actually worse.  I don't think my problem has to do with not considering my empathetic instincts, considering most of the people I trusted on instinct have flipped town or are likely to be town.  Probably should save this for postgame though, it's not really going to solve anything now lol.

[Beru]

I still don't know why Athena visited Makaze when I said I was visiting him/he asked to be watched lul

[Beru]

everyone else: guys I'm putting so much thought into this game, look at me reasoning out who the last antitownbois could possibly be, these are beautiful logical posts and will surely help us catch wolves

me: I have a night action!!!1!1!

Spoiler

I just think this is funny that's all ?

 

[Refa]

2 minutes ago, Beru said:

I still don't know why Athena visited Makaze when I said I was visiting him/he asked to be watched lul

He probably didn't read it.  His lack of activity seems to be more because he's busy than because he's scum IMO.

[Refa]

Just now, Beru said:

everyone else: guys I'm putting so much thought into this game, look at me reasoning out who the last antitownbois could possibly be, these are beautiful logical posts and will surely help us catch wolves

me: I have a night action!!!1!1!

  Hide contents

I just think this is funny that's all ?

 

y-yeah, well i have a night action too!  just because i'm not using it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. : (

[Beru]

so uh

Athena visited Makaze last night in addition to conetworking one of me/vi

it's.... something that isn't a death action? obviously. Makaze isn't dead lul.

like, if Athena is the only person remaining of their faction they'd have to have done the conetworking, whatever happened to Makaze, and the kill

?

is that.... too much

[Makaze]

@Blitz The context for that quote is this post from Marth:

On 4/12/2018 at 1:38 PM, Magnificence Incarnate said:

Actually I'll claim because people will waste their investigative roles on me.

I'm a Self Watcher Delayer. Yeah, thanks a lot guys.

This was nearing the end of D1, when Marth had three votes on him.

The rest is kind of hard to find, but I'll manage it:

On 4/22/2018 at 12:49 AM, Makaze said:

I asked Omega to claim himself later and he did it himself when I pushed him to. See here:

  On 4/19/2018 at 11:24 AM, Omega. said:

LG, Makaze, Snike, Kill, Walrein, Arcanite/Weapons look the worst here. I think it's weird that BBM was killed over an earlier voter on the Junko wagon; makes me consider a bus.

My POE is still [LG/Weapons/Makaze/Kill] at the moment. I say just kill all of these people and see what happens.

I wanted to kill Snike for ruining the dayphase earlier, but I didn't want him dead before today. I don't know why he makes this play as wolf; he's failed to sink Mackc and has instead made himself look way worse for little benefit. I don't know what he is doing really, but he's had a few villagery moments earlier in the game. That said, I don't really even grasp what all this claim stuff is; my eyes have glazed over it because we were doing perfectly fine before it was brought to the forefront. If someone wants to tl;dr this for me, I'd look over it. I've only skimmed since what happened last night: has Walrein done anything? Like a reads list or anything at all? I'm not putting up with his coasting for much longer.

I'm Jaybee, a self-watcher delayer.

On 4/21/2018 at 8:17 PM, Omega. said:

I want to give you guys some things to consider with regards to my slot. I normally don't put excessive energy into defending myself, but I think it's appropriate here because I don't want to lose this game and people are still suspecting me which I think is ridiculous. At this point villacore needs to unite and not just shit on each other out of paranoia. So here:

https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/82524-etrian-odyssey-3-mafia-game-over/&do=findComment&comment=5169075

https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-4/&do=findComment&comment=5189104

The first link leads you to the last game Marth and myself played where I pushed him when he was villa. If you look at the third paragraph, he says "Omega's case on me sucks" and proceeds to suss me. If you go to the second link, you'll see how he says "Junko's read on me sucks" when describing why he susses him as well. Now, some players use the same language regardless of alignment, but in my experience, MOST are bad at controlling/replicating their language as both alignments over a long period of time. His language choice here is one of those subtle things that tells you a lot about his alignment; most people do/say/pull the same shit as the same alignment over time.

I'd also tell you, why the hell would Marth claim at that point in the game as mafia/SK? Here's the votecount:

  On 4/12/2018 at 1:40 PM, Iris said:

athena_57 (5): Snike + SatsumaFSoySoy, Shinori, Bartozio, eclipse
Bartozio (3): Fenrir, Jaybee, WeaponsofMassConstruction
Junk (3): Zkirsche, Magnificence Incarnate, Refa
Magnificence Incarnate (3): Walrein, vi-astra, BBM

First off, this village was largely bad D1, so LOL @ thinking we had possibly 3 wolves (I'm not townreading athena) being wagoned. That's just ridiculous with the nonsense that was happening in this thread D1. His role as mafia/SK would be EXTREMELY useful, so claiming it and effectively making it worthless when he didn't have to is such a bad play that I argue he never pulls as scum/ITP. Also, in the last game we played, Marth got frustrated and actually posted his role PM so he'd die. I think he was probably annoyed that he was getting wagoned/pushed here for shitty reasons (I read him as wolf last game, but once I learned he was innocent, I understood his town play more. I was reading him V as I was spectating this game, and I really don't think anyone who has played with him before should have been reading him wolf here), and claimed to get people off of his back. I don't want to link/quote where Marth did that in the last game or even discuss it because I don't want him to get a bad rep for it; I'm only bringing it up to illustrate that his behavior here in this game is consistent with what he's done as villa before.

Also, I don't come/replace into the thread and put 3 of my bros on my wolf list, and I don't have that interaction with Shinori where he gets salty with me. I think everyone was calling him V for shitty reasons as well, so I would have just left him alone and proceeded to powerwolf with him. I also don't try to change the dynamic of the gameflow to go between Junko/kirsche; I don't think any of them were being wagoned/voted when I replaced in.

It's silly that so many people have come at me today and some, maybe all, are actually villa. I've been trying to draw the kill, and y'all are pretty much ensuring that never happens out of paranoia instead of anything reasonable.

On 4/21/2018 at 11:36 PM, Makaze said:

  On 4/12/2018 at 1:41 PM, Magnificence Incarnate said:

Well I guess I should explain the delay part: any action on me including the scum kill gets delayed by a phase.

 

  On 4/21/2018 at 8:17 PM, Omega. said:

I want to give you guys some things to consider with regards to my slot. I normally don't put excessive energy into defending myself, but I think it's appropriate here because I don't want to lose this game and people are still suspecting me which I think is ridiculous. At this point villacore needs to unite and not just shit on each other out of paranoia. So here:

https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/82524-etrian-odyssey-3-mafia-game-over/&do=findComment&comment=5169075

https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-4/&do=findComment&comment=5189104

The first link leads you to the last game Marth and myself played where I pushed him when he was villa. If you look at the third paragraph, he says "Omega's case on me sucks" and proceeds to suss me. If you go to the second link, you'll see how he says "Junko's read on me sucks" when describing why he susses him as well. Now, some players use the same language regardless of alignment, but in my experience, MOST are bad at controlling/replicating their language as both alignments over a long period of time. His language choice here is one of those subtle things that tells you a lot about his alignment; most people do/say/pull the same shit as the same alignment over time.

I'd also tell you, why the hell would Marth claim at that point in the game as mafia/SK? Here's the votecount:

First off, this village was largely bad D1, so LOL @ thinking we had possibly 3 wolves (I'm not townreading athena) being wagoned. That's just ridiculous with the nonsense that was happening in this thread D1. His role as mafia/SK would be EXTREMELY useful, so claiming it and effectively making it worthless when he didn't have to is such a bad play that I argue he never pulls as scum/ITP. Also, in the last game we played, Marth got frustrated and actually posted his role PM so he'd die. I think he was probably annoyed that he was getting wagoned/pushed here for shitty reasons (I read him as wolf last game, but once I learned he was innocent, I understood his town play more. I was reading him V as I was spectating this game, and I really don't think anyone who has played with him before should have been reading him wolf here), and claimed to get people off of his back. I don't want to link/quote where Marth did that in the last game or even discuss it because I don't want him to get a bad rep for it; I'm only bringing it up to illustrate that his behavior here in this game is consistent with what he's done as villa before.

Also, I don't come/replace into the thread and put 3 of my bros on my wolf list, and I don't have that interaction with Shinori where he gets salty with me. I think everyone was calling him V for shitty reasons as well, so I would have just left him alone and proceeded to powerwolf with him. I also don't try to change the dynamic of the gameflow to go between Junko/kirsche; I don't think any of them were being wagoned/voted when I replaced in.

It's silly that so many people have come at me today and some, maybe all, are actually villa. I've been trying to draw the kill, and y'all are pretty much ensuring that never happens out of paranoia instead of anything reasonable.

  Quote

... It's silly that so many people have come at me today and some, maybe all, are actually villa. I've been trying to draw the kill, and y'all are pretty much ensuring that never happens out of paranoia instead of anything reasonable.

  Quote

... I've been trying to draw the kill, and y'all are pretty much ensuring that never happens out of paranoia instead of anything reasonable.

 

@Refa You're right, I'm sorry for snapping at you. I'm just really, really sure you're wrong. Even if I've been wrong about my reasons for suspecting people, please trust me on these. You can sheep me on these. Promise.

[Makaze]

3 minutes ago, Beru said:

so uh

Athena visited Makaze last night in addition to conetworking one of me/vi

it's.... something that isn't a death action? obviously. Makaze isn't dead lul.

like, if Athena is the only person remaining of their faction they'd have to have done the conetworking, whatever happened to Makaze, and the kill

?

is that.... too much

It doesn't make a lot of sense, which is why I think Athena could still be town, if they have a good reason for this.

It needs to be really good though.

[Refa]

2 minutes ago, Beru said:

so uh

Athena visited Makaze last night in addition to conetworking one of me/vi

it's.... something that isn't a death action? obviously. Makaze isn't dead lul.

like, if Athena is the only person remaining of their faction they'd have to have done the conetworking, whatever happened to Makaze, and the kill

?

is that.... too much

I don't think so, especially if Athena is ITP.  Him hiding his claim on threat of lynch + the other Co-Networker just being a Co-Networker does not look good on him.

1 minute ago, Makaze said:

@Refa You're right, I'm sorry for snapping at you. I'm just really, really sure you're wrong. Even if I've been wrong about my reasons for suspecting people, please trust me on these. You can sheep me on these. Promise.

No worries, I'm being obstinate and it's probably frustrating.  I can sheep a Fable townread because I don't value my read too much on the slot, but I really can't see Omega flipping scum...Maybe I'm picking the wrong hill to die upon, but it's not something I'm going to budge on ATM.  I'll rethink my reads tomorrow after flips to see where my head's at.

[Makaze]

23 minutes ago, Refa said:

It is, but I'm not planning on scumreading him based on how he claimed anyways.  I'm moreso saying "I could see Scum!Fable making this claim, so I'm going to reread him on the next day to see if I'm right about him".

It's null for me.  I can't get a strong read off of it, and I'm not going to force it.  I used to try to force opinions on things and just ended up being wrong a lot of the time.

I mean, my play has issues but it's moreso because I townread people too easily and am forced to reevaluate those townreads later on in the game, and when I do have to do that, I have a hard time sifting through which ones are actually worse.  I don't think my problem has to do with not considering my empathetic instincts, considering most of the people I trusted on instinct have flipped town or are likely to be town.  Probably should save this for postgame though, it's not really going to solve anything now lol.

I'm just saying, don't vote them based on someone quoting one posts and framing it a certain way.

Build your own case. I said this before about the Kill thing.

I'll be mad if you just sheep Omega, who literally doesn't care who gets lynched, as long as it's not him, because he's smart enough to find something that could be construed as bad, when you didn't read it yourself/don't trust yourself.

This is one of the reasons I townread Evan so strongly. He trusts his insticts and seems to have the, while still considering other ideas. He reminds me of me.

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, Refa said:

I don't think so, especially if Athena is ITP.  Him hiding his claim on threat of lynch + the other Co-Networker just being a Co-Networker does not look good on him.

No worries, I'm being obstinate and it's probably frustrating.  I can sheep a Fable townread because I don't value my read too much on the slot, but I really can't see Omega flipping scum...Maybe I'm picking the wrong hill to die upon, but it's not something I'm going to budge on ATM.  I'll rethink my reads tomorrow after flips to see where my head's at.

Just hear me out.

What makes you think Omega is town? Have none of his posts made you doubt his intentions? What do you think his approach to the game is right now?

[Refa]

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I'm just saying, don't vote them based on someone quoting one posts and framing it a certain way.

Build your own case. I said this before about the Kill thing.

I'll be mad if you just sheep Omega, who literally doesn't care who gets lynched, as long as it's not him, because he's smart enough to find something that could be construed as bad, when you didn't read it yourself/don't trust yourself.

This is one of the reasons I townread Evan so strongly. He trusts his insticts and seems to have the, while still considering other ideas. He reminds me of me.

Fair enough to the first two.

I'm not planning on sheeping Omega.  Even if he's town, he could still be wrong.

I see.

1 minute ago, Makaze said:

Just hear me out.

What makes you think Omega is town? Have none of his posts made you doubt his intentions? What do you think his approach to the game is right now?

His tunnel on you made me doubt his intentions.  I still think he's town because overall his pushes have aligned with my thoughts (it felt like he was the only one who agreed with me about Snike yesterday, for example), and I think his case on you more reads as frustration on his part over scum intent.  Overall, your interactions w/him don't read as scum/scum or scum/town to me because the way you're both arguing reads to me as "I KNOW I'm town, so this guy death tunneling me is either an idiot or scum".  Basically, you're both like Kill.  You can't see why town would presumably make a "shit" case on you, so you default to reading the other person as scum despite it being illogical.  For example, your read on Omega.  You're disregarding a lot to say that he's only focused on lynching you.  On Omega's end, he's focused on you being consistently wrong instead of WHY you're wrong (is your read ingenuine? does it come from a scum mindset? would Town!Makaze push these mislynches).  I agree with you that he went into self preservation mode for the middle part of D4, but that's not enough to make me scumread his slot. 

[Refa]

I know you're also scumreading Omega because you caught him on his claim, but I think you're ignoring the simpler explanation of "he didn't know that Marth claimed that his role would delay the scum kill".  I agree that Marth's claim was antitown (and I mean, harmful to town), but I can get his mindset because he gets cased so much as town and probably figured he'd get turboed at that point.  Basically, that part doesn't really bother me.  I think it's more likely to come from town.

[Refa]

Also I'd say his approach has been "okay, these are the people I feel the worst about, I'll push them".

[Fable]

Refa's stance on me is super frustrating. Like he refused to talked to me in our QT and doesn't really read my posts but wants to tunnel my slot anyway like wtf? 

Also has athena really not posted yet? What do we do if he just flakes out of the phase? Just lynch him?

[Makaze]

6 minutes ago, Refa said:

Fair enough to the first two.

I'm not planning on sheeping Omega.  Even if he's town, he could still be wrong.

I see.

His tunnel on you made me doubt his intentions.  I still think he's town because overall his pushes have aligned with my thoughts (it felt like he was the only one who agreed with me about Snike yesterday, for example), and I think his case on you more reads as frustration on his part over scum intent.  Overall, your interactions w/him don't read as scum/scum or scum/town to me because the way you're both arguing reads to me as "I KNOW I'm town, so this guy death tunneling me is either an idiot or scum".  Basically, you're both like Kill.  You can't see why town would presumably make a "shit" case on you, so you default to reading the other person as scum despite it being illogical.  For example, your read on Omega.  You're disregarding a lot to say that he's only focused on lynching you.  On Omega's end, he's focused on you being consistently wrong instead of WHY you're wrong (is your read ingenuine? does it come from a scum mindset? would Town!Makaze push these mislynches).  I agree with you that he went into self preservation mode for the middle part of D4, but that's not enough to make me scumread his slot. 

I very, very strongly believe he is playing on you to pocket you. He's been over the top about everything. "Look who's voting Refa, everybody. Best player on this site Makaze, that's who!"

It's all for show. I'm like... floored, that you're just looking at the actual result of what he's doing and not getting the feeling he is being slimy about how. He's literally said he will just sheep you for the rest of the game.

[Makaze]

I think that him reading Snike town is possibly genuine. I also believe he doesn't give a shit if Snike is town.

Not sure if you get what I'm saying, but I get the distinct impression that he doesn't care who town is. He might not know, and I think he really doesn't know, which makes it easy for him to appear to solve. But I get the very strong impression that he genuinely doesn't care, as long as he's alive. So any solving he does, is just for brownie points, and his votes reflect that reality.

[Makaze]

I think that this is true regardless of if he is Mafia or not, and if he is town and still doesn't care, then I am actually more angry instead of just convinced he is ITP; I will be mad that he subbed into the game if he's not going to take it seriously.

[Makaze]

6 minutes ago, Fable said:

Refa's stance on me is super frustrating. Like he refused to talked to me in our QT and doesn't really read my posts but wants to tunnel my slot anyway like wtf? 

Also has athena really not posted yet? What do we do if he just flakes out of the phase? Just lynch him?

We have to... We can't just let him make us wait forever.