We Need Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 5 After All! - GAME OVER

[Eurykins]

Uh..... I wouldn't mind if someone could summarize, tbh. But I figure I may as well read in the meantime as well and get some idea of what went on, so long as my right eye holds up alright. It's gotten slightly better/less painful thanks to pain meds, but still stupid annoying.

[Snike]

Is this a fair summary?: Zeus comes in. Is prodded to content. Steadfastly refuses to content. Zeus leaves.

I'm a little busy rn but will get to above stuff.

[BBM]

2 hours ago, Fable said:

Oh.

Yeah I super disagree with what people are saying about him then. I think his posts have been reasonable and I really don't see a wolf trying to reach out to me the way that he did. 

what do you think was particularly townie about that? i think people giving advice is generally pretty null because it's easy to fake for scum. it doesn't require scum to think like a townie to give a townie advice.

[Bibbon]

15 minutes ago, BBM said:

it's not that you promised to do one, it's that you SHOULD do one. you mentioned that you thought there was scum voting/suspecting athena. okay, so who is that scum? if you don't follow up on a statement like that, it's just useless fluff. that's why your defence of athena reads like a white knight to me.

and although you didn't promise a wagon analysis on athena, you DID promise a long post with scumreads and allude to having several others other than zeus, but barely talked about any of them

this is basically the only non-zeus content you ever ended up posting, on weapons:

even though I don't agree with weapons, I don't think that there's a lack of progression here because weapons gives reasons for his change of mind in the post that you're quoting, which you don't address. but even setting that aside it's not very much given you said you had a few other scumreads and you were preparing a long post.

i don't really care about your quantity of posts. fwiw after your spree of posts earlier today (last night for you) you might even be in the upper half wrt post count. i care about quality and a lot of your posts just seem like they're just responding to whatever posts are happening in the thread at that moment, or were directly addressed to you, rather than looking for scum.

it's also hypocritical for you to bag on weapons for asking a player to self-meta because self-meta is useless, while you just gave me self-meta.

I have problems with you which is why I don't interact with you. But here goes.  

1) There's nothing illogical about assuming there's scum in the top wagon on D1. It's quite natural actually. And, as I said, votes aren't the only thing that matters, which is why I did do an "ISO" of sorts of a few players. If you can't tell, I'm having a hard time navigating the site and I can't post the ISOs like I do on MU.  

2) It's quite strange that you use the term "white knigting" here, just for Athena and not for any of my other reads. What exactly is "white knighting?" Do you even understand the meaning of the term? How is me defending a town read the same as "white knighting"? By that logic, anyone who defends anyone must be  a "white knight" in your eyes. 

What are you even implying by using this term? Are you implying that I believe Athena is scum and am still defending them? Contextually it makes no sense. Maybe you could find easier words to describe exactly what it is I'm doing. 

3) I talked about Weapons. I do suspect one more player, but they're widely town read, which is why I'm reluctant to accuse them of being scum.  I'm not trying to be deceitful. I just don't want to be wrong about it. 

4) No, it is a logical switch. He did explain his motivation. I did not miss/ignore it. It's almost like he switched world views. I'm not impressed by the explanation and I have pointed that out. I wasn't asking for an explanation for the read, I was asking for an explanation in change in narrative. If you don't understand what that means, don't comment on it. 

5)I am looking for scum. If you expect me to describe my thoughts on every single player, you're not going to get that. If you have noticed, I have been saying things. Don't tell me how I should play the game. So what if I respond to the thread as it happens? So what if I answer the questions directed at me? I tend to play my way, and nothing else. 

6) I never self meta'd. I said this is how I play, regardless of alignment. Did I even once claim alignment in this game? 

This is a gross misrepresentation of my content and this isn't the first time I've seen you do this.  If you make similar posts, I'm just going to completely ignore them. It's frustrating and an absolute waste of my time. 

[Percivalé]

3 minutes ago, Bibbon said:

I do suspect one more player, but they're widely town read, which is why I'm reluctant to accuse them of being scum.  I'm not trying to be deceitful. I just don't want to be wrong about it. 

be honest........is it me

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

6 minutes ago, Bibbon said:

3) I talked about Weapons. I do suspect one more player, but they're widely town read, which is why I'm reluctant to accuse them of being scum.  I'm not trying to be deceitful. I just don't want to be wrong about it. 

I'd like to hear who that is tbh. It's strange to do only show half of your hand when you're not ready to play it.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Let go of the fear of being wrong! It's only holding you back

[Percivalé]

I think it's strange to be afraid to voice a scum read on anyone; are you worried town will berate you for it, or specifically because you might be wrong? you imply it may be both and the self-consciousness here intrigues me.

someone  (kirsche?) voiced suspicion on eclipse earlier and she's highly read as town atm so it's not something that hasn't been already done.

[BBM]

first off i apologize for frustrating you. that wasn't my intention. but I'm going to be pushing you for at least a while so if you feel like i'm being a dick or something i'd rather you say that so I can try to rephrase, than just not interact with me.

my definition of white knighting is scum defending town to look good after they get mislynched. i think that this is the case vs your other townreads because those townreads aren't being up for lynch. but more specifically i think it's white knighting because as far as I can tell you never actually responded to a case against athena at any point or actually tried to directly change peoples minds about him. you just said that he's new and that being defensive and opportunistic is NAI. i think it's scummy because it doesn't feel to me like you're actually trying to prevent his lynch or find which scum if any might be responsible for athena being a wagon considering you thought all the votes against him sucked, which leads to the next point-

sure, obviously there are going to be scum on a large wagon. i agree with that statement. but it doesn't contribute anything to the game to say that in a 22p game which probably has 5-6 anti-town players, at least one out of 5 players are scum. you could take any random group of 5 people and have a good shot of that being the case. you're only contributing something to the game if you say who of those group of people you think is more or less likely to be scum. and i'm harping on it because I find that this is a particular form of fake content that scum often use, because it's easy to say and looks to be more helpful than it actually is.

i also don't think i'm misrepresenting your content or telling you how you should play the game, and again i'm sorry if that's how it came off. i'm not looking for your thoughts on every player. but if you say "yeah i'm making a long post" I expect you to make a long post (or a bunch of short posts with that content in it). if you say "i have a few other scumreads" I expect you to talk about those scumreads.

also yeah the new forum software (we call it "new" but it's been around for years now) sucks for playing mafia. have you tried using makaze's script? it's linked in the mafia hq I think. alternatively most of the people in this game don't really post outside the mafia forum, so you can go to their profile to see their latest activity

[BBM]

SHRUG bibbon is probably town whose playstyle annoys me i guess

[BBM]

bibbon, i know you're saying that you addressed weapons's change in read on athena but it doesn't feel to me like you did, and weapons felt the same way. can you quote the post where you said that or say it again bc I might have missed it. to me it looks like you're just saying that it doesn't look natural. but he shows evidence of rereading and is bringing up points to find athena scummy that he hadn't addressed earlier while finding athena scummy. also i think in context it seems like a weird time for scum!weapons to change his read on athena. i know a lot of people were expressing suspicion against him but it's not like there was a wagon to take advantage of.

[Snike]

@EurykinsOh also I had to write a double limerick to sub in. That's on Page 16. Skip IMO

@eclipse I can understand it but as I pointed out some of it is scummy to me. what do you think about the JB interaction in particular?

 

I'm a little tired but I think BBM looks better than bibbons out of this mess. She has a lot of words to use in her defense when they could be used to hunt scum/ explain why there are scum on athena wagon. I am not asking for walls but something more than (paraphrasing) "athena cases are bad and people who push him are scum"

going to bed rn.

 

[Snike]

I can also clarify that I do understand the zeus vote but I am going to reiterate that zeus should be vigged. The slot simply does not provide as much info interactions-wise as-is.

Good night, thread.

[Bibbon]

1 hour ago, BBM said:

bibbon, i know you're saying that you addressed weapons's change in read on athena but it doesn't feel to me like you did, and weapons felt the same way. can you quote the post where you said that or say it again bc I might have missed it. to me it looks like you're just saying that it doesn't look natural. but he shows evidence of rereading and is bringing up points to find athena scummy that he hadn't addressed earlier while finding athena scummy. also i think in context it seems like a weird time for scum!weapons to change his read on athena. i know a lot of people were expressing suspicion against him but it's not like there was a wagon to take advantage of.

Well, here's the thing about Weapons. He says at first, that Athena looks towny for backing off, then the next post he says, no he's scummy. 

So, in the first world, Athena is towny and Weapons would have backed off like that also and it's no cause for concern. But in the next post, he's reread the thread and suddenly it is a cancern. Yes, he's giving reasons, but it feels unnatural. Exactly what could have he seen on rereading the thread that does 180 flip on his worldview? Nothing substantial had happened in the time gap. The development from "I would do this myself" to "he's scum for doing the exact same thing" is shady. 

To me, this feels opportunistic. Like, oh I think he looks good for this.  No, he actually looks bad (a few posts later). I don't want to know the reason for the read, I want to know the reason for the change in worldview. How was one thing not a concern last post, but is on reread? If so, then what caused him to see his action in a different light? 

@WeaponsofMassConstruction  can you address this. 

I hope you can understand what I mean by this 

[Bibbon]

Also, I'm in class right now. I'll post better later. 

[eclipse]

25 minutes ago, Snike said:

 

@eclipse I can understand it but as I pointed out some of it is scummy to me. what do you think about the JB interaction in particular?

Eh.

Issue is that JB's pretty unmemorable.  Athena being snarky about that unvote is null in my eyes, since I have no idea why JB would do that.

8 minutes ago, Bibbon said:

Well, here's the thing about Weapons. He says at first, that Athena looks towny for backing off, then the next post he says, no he's scummy. 

So, in the first world, Athena is towny and Weapons would have backed off like that also and it's no cause for concern. But in the next post, he's reread the thread and suddenly it is a cancern. Yes, he's giving reasons, but it feels unnatural. Exactly what could have he seen on rereading the thread that does 180 flip on his worldview? Nothing substantial had happened in the time gap. The development from "I would do this myself" to "he's scum for doing the exact same thing" is shady. 

To me, this feels opportunistic. Like, oh I think he looks good for this.  No, he actually looks bad (a few posts later). I don't want to know the reason for the read, I want to know the reason for the change in worldview. How was one thing not a concern last post, but is on reread? If so, then what caused him to see his action in a different light? 

@WeaponsofMassConstruction  can you address this. 

I hope you can understand what I mean by this 

Stuff like this is awesome, and I enjoy reading it.

Honestly not reading either of BBM/Bibbon as scum, so I'm not bothered by the kerfuffle.

I'm tired, so I'm gonna go to bed.  Will try to catch this tomorrow, but it'll be 5ish hours before phase end.

[Athena_57]

Weapons is

9 hours ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

 @athena_57, do you really not find anything different between your play this game and the last?

Nothing stands out to me in particular, but I'd say you'd be a better judge of that than I am.

7 hours ago, Snike said:

I'm on the athena wagon still. Aforementioned reasons and the back and forth between him and my other head where the omgus accusation came out was kind of hypocritical. 'Don't take my words seriously' (paraphrased) when one is cracking down on someone over (partially) joke votes is ??? at best, and bringing OMGUS into the conversation feels like an attempt to dismiss the other side. Then on zeus, he doesn't feel like he's really scumhunting imo. Like it's pushing zeus to try and content, but reads more like filler than town on a case. Lastly, I feel like when he has come up with reads, it's almost always after being pressured. It's not proactive, it's reactive, and I do not like it one bit. Vote stays.

'Don't take my words too seriously' was purely directed at my manner of speaking, not at the content.

About Zeus, the reason it doesn't look like I'm scumhunting there is because I wasn't. I was indeed trying to push him to make more content and it wasn't a case I was pushing. I don't see your point, did I ever claim I was scumreading him?

7 hours ago, Fable said:

Choosing to leave instead of engaging with me over his read on me and trying to have actual content is disgusting and the final nail for him IMO.

To be fair, it was 11 PM for us at the time and he said he was tired. However, your post was made an hour earlier and he definitely could've responded there.

6 hours ago, Junk said:

> About Bartozio
Athena sheeped his logic so that goes against him too (cuz i think bart's logic looks scummy). This is all  early game stuff though so he's not a huge priority

 

Athena's response to Satsuma isn't very good because he misreps Satsuma's situation. He states that he finds it weird how Satsuma is critcizing others for being non confrontational despite not being super confrontational himself. However, the key difference is that Athena unvoted despite not being satisfied?

 

I didn't sheep his logic, I specified so 2/3 times, I merely agreed that Satsuma was a good person place my vote on.

Let me clarify why I unvoted there. The original vote was placed to push Satsuma into talking. After it became apparent Satsuma wasn't going to give more reads, apparently didn't have them, I decided that was the best answer I was going to get for the time and wanted to apply pressure somewhere else.

5 hours ago, Snike said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Here's the exchange, minus the quotes inside and I think one satsuma post. Y'all should follow the links to the actual context; it makes more sense there + it'll catch stuff I'm missing

Basically Satsuma admits to making jokeposts (In RVS) and is getting pushed for lack of content. (On Page 5 before admitting to these things) Satsuma suggests that athena's lynch happy.

Athena says not to take his words seriously, when he made the first comment (presumably in earnest) about satsuma's chance to redeem himself. That's backpedaling + hypocrisy.

Setsuna calls Athena on indecisiveness and that dissonance, as well as following bartozio. Explains his reasoning

Call me out if you think I'm misrepresenting this, but that's what I'm reading.

Just wanted to point out the stuff inside the spoilers is kind of misleading, it looks like I'm responding "fair point" to that one line of Satsuma, when Satsuma's post had a bunch more stuff. Not saying you're trying to misrep me, just that the formatting is kind of awkward. (So yeah, check the links, not the spoiler)

I was earnest about wanting Satsuma to start producing. It's just the "chance at redemption" part which was a bit over the top and meant as a joke, which I attempted to clarify there.

Also, Satsuma implies there that my case on them consists of them being indecisive, when what I actually said was that I was afraid his indecisiveness was "clouding my vision" so to speak.

4 hours ago, Snike said:

I don't think the argument about confrontation holds bc they're obviously in a confrontation : Not voting is a separate matter in a sense. I mean I'm kinda flaming marth but I'm not voting him; does that mean I'm averse to confronting him?

The vote itself makes sense if he thinks satsuma's stuff is bad; the read on the bartozio case is ??? because he goes from agreeing with the conclusion to saying he's scummy but no need to wagon. I'd like to see more about that.

Bro defense on zeus is null, but it's telling that his read stays the same after the zeusShow of like 13-16. It doesn't evolve despite the pushing.

to JB's unvote before he contented, and this is what actually set me on him while I was reading in anticipation of the inevitable polysub.This is kinda a cheap shot, and the fact that he does not go to respond to JB's followup post, instead moving on to zeus, makes it look worse.

The zeus stuff I believe I've expressed my concerns about, but afterwards, when I sub in, he responds to Satsuma + my role thing, but not to my stuff on him, when I'm directly voting him. This goes against the confrontation point from above, though maybe I'm just the Bogeysnike or something to him.

Yes we're in a confrontation, but it's mostly Satsuma defending themselves so I wouldn't give them credit for that.

I approved of the wagon, but it already had a bunch of votes, whereas Satsuma didn't. Don't see what's weird about that.

My read didn't change because he doesn't produce content. He ended up basically where he started, e.g. not producing, explain/making excuses as to why and asking people not to kill him.

I didn't follow up because I didn't think it was scummy. I didn't think the unvote post was scummy either, just felt it was funny.

I didn't respond to your stuff because the only thing you'd voiced at the time on me was a gutread, and there's no point in arguing with gutreads.

4 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I think Nightmare is trying to be a bit lurky. Their posts are often long because they said they only post in short bursts after most things have already finished, but he doesn't seem to give much reasoning to his thoughts. His list of reads has a lot of uncertainty, which is fine to me, but when he does say something he never goes into specifics. For example, he says Athena has pulled himself out of suspicion and gets a townread from him, but it's a sentence that essentially says nothing because he doesn't point to what Athena has done or said. He also said BBM's posts felt lackluster, but again, doesn't really point to anything. Granted, his wording implied he might not know how to describe it, but I'd still like to see something more specific from him. Not really going to file him under anything yet since he's basically not telling us how he's thinking.

I'm conflicted about Magnificence. On one hand, he based his entire Junk case on something that could just be a verbal tic, which is just strange. On the other hand, he has yet to get on and defend his case in any manner, so I don't know what he's trying to do. I'm interested to see if he'll just bail out of this Junk thing.

Speaking of, Junk has been inactive too, but he's reading and commenting deeply into issues when he posts, much more so than Magnificence. If the patterns continue, I'd find Junk to be the more believable one.

I really like this post and agree with most of it tbh.

2 hours ago, Snike said:

I mean yes that post is the instigator  but he had some stuff p12 and never really evolved his scumreads in between the two posts. He also doesn't bring up a notable spat and instead relegates the two individuals as null/scum when he was definitely backing athena previously.

 

This line contradicts itself:
> His reads didn't evolve
> He says bot are null, whilst first agreeing with 1 the other is scummy

Which of the two is it?

2 hours ago, Bibbon said:

But to those asking me why I'm voting Zeus, it's because his play is incredibly manipulative. He plans on coasting and his "don't vig me" post was disguised as him asking a question as if he doesn't know what we're even talking about. This along with him asking the thread for the meanings of basic English words has me thinking he is fake, and for that reason, he should be lynched.  

It's not just bad play, it's manipulative and that's my problem with it. 

I don't think it's manipulative tbh, he isn't really a manipulative person/player in any game I've ever played with him. Him asking the meaning of words isn't too weird, he's 16 years old and not a native speaker. And most of his questions have been specifically about mafia related terminology.

 

Okay, TL;DR

I feel better about the hydra now. I still think Satsuma's early content was bad, but their recent stuff is better. I'm also liking Snike's tone, though he's mostly been tunneling on me.

##Unvote

Still null on Zeus. Don't think he should be lynched, I'd rather see him get vigged. (Or produce content)
Still townreading Eclipse and Via.
Bibbon's content has been good imo, I like their questioning of weapons.
Speaking of weapons, I can't see scum acting like this, so he's among the people I'm townreading.

I don't really like the Marth wagon tbh and am not considering joining it atm.
The bartozio wagon is fine, but there's just very little to go on. Awaiting more posts before joining this. If nothing happens before consolidation time, this is probably where I'm going as I don't like the other wagons that much.

Of the little-posters I'm mostly bothered by Nightmare. He's been posting these very surface-level "summaries" without actually engaging with people, asking questions or anything. It doesn't help his summaries have mostly been repeating the same townreads. I'd like to hear more.

##Vote: Nightmare

I'm also iffy on Fable on gut.

I don't think I've mentioned this before, but I'm leaning town on BBM.

I'll reread the Kirsche/Junko thing later today but am kind of busy now.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

14 minutes ago, Bibbon said:

Well, here's the thing about Weapons. He says at first, that Athena looks towny for backing off, then the next post he says, no he's scummy. 

So, in the first world, Athena is towny and Weapons would have backed off like that also and it's no cause for concern. But in the next post, he's reread the thread and suddenly it is a cancern. Yes, he's giving reasons, but it feels unnatural. Exactly what could have he seen on rereading the thread that does 180 flip on his worldview? Nothing substantial had happened in the time gap. The development from "I would do this myself" to "he's scum for doing the exact same thing" is shady. 

To me, this feels opportunistic. Like, oh I think he looks good for this.  No, he actually looks bad (a few posts later). I don't want to know the reason for the read, I want to know the reason for the change in worldview. How was one thing not a concern last post, but is on reread? If so, then what caused him to see his action in a different light? 

@WeaponsofMassConstruction  can you address this. 

I hope you can understand what I mean by this 

Oh I see what you're saying. Actually yeah that is weird, I think on first read through, I was more implicitly responding to some cases on athena that I didn't think were that good and on second read through I was thinking more and in particular considered last game where I was townreading athena and so needed to factor in that he had that in his scum range. I think as I was making the post I wasn't scumreading him in the beginning due to the gut remnants of the day before, but then I felt I should've been scumreading him based on the reasons I came up. In making the second post, I definitely did not care to take into account what I said in my first reads post, so I guess yeah I did do a legit 180.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

18 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

Nothing stands out to me in particular, but I'd say you'd be a better judge of that than I am.

If you're playing the same as last game, then why shouldn't we lynch you?

[Athena_57]

16 minutes ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

If you're playing the same as last game, then why shouldn't we lynch you?

Perhaps I'm just incredibly good at mimicking what town!me would do as scum.

On a more serious note, I suppose last game I just voted someone at the start of each day and attempted to "ride that vote to victory" if you get what I mean? I am quite a tunnely/stubborn person though, so I could see town!me doing the same thing. And I have to assume there are tonal differences, but once again, it's really hard for me to judge those about myself.

[BBM]

BBM DOES VOTALS BECAUSE THE MODS DONT
Magnificence Incarnate (5): Walrein, eclipse, vi-astra, BBM
Snike + SatsumaFSoySoy (3): Bartozio, Eurykins, Refa
athena_57 (3): Snike + SatsumaFSoySoy, Shinori, WeaponsofMassConstruction
Bartozio (2): Anime27Arts, Jaybee
Junk (2): Zkirsche, Magnificence Incarnate
zeus_112 (2): Bibbon, Fable
Jaybee (1): Nightmare
Zkirsche (1): Junk
Shinori (1): Elieson
Fable (1): zeus_112
Nightmare (1): athena57

Not Voting: Eärendil

You have ~12 hours and 45 minutes left in the day. With 22 alive, it takes 8 to lynch and 15 to hammer.

[BBM]

just wanted to get an idea of where the wagons were. satsuma wagon is outdated I think. there are a lot fewer votes on zeus than I would expect? it feels like the most suspected people are probably marth, athena, zeus, and bartozio.

I think at least marth should claim once he gets on. people not voting one of those four people should probably give opinions on them and who they'd want to consolidate on.

athena, why don't you like the marth wagon?

i think i'll probably be around sporadically tomorrow before phase end but it'll be in between classes so yeah

[BBM]

i lied I didn't go to sleep yet. i'd probably be okay consolidating on bart above zeus and athena just cuz I think he's more likely to be scum due to vague gutvibes of his play being lurkier than normal and his main content being focused on easy targets, which reminds me of persona 5 mafia where he was scum. but I just don't feel like I have enough posts from him to be confident in a read, and I think from an interactions perspective his lynch wouldn't really generate as much.

[Shinori]

Btw.

Eury's been typing for the past 4 hours.

[Percivalé]