We Need Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 5 After All! - GAME OVER

[Percivalé]

sometimes I'm pretty bad at mafia games

[Bibbon]

1 minute ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

I see why it is interpreted as scummy and also why everyone was like "good read bibbon"

mm but it did

I'm good at seeing contexts and narratives, which is how I scum hunt. I don't harp on players for flaws in logic, that is, if their actions make sense.  Because I know that both village and wolf do that, since most people aren't logical all the time. This is why a more effective method of catching scum is by seeing how their narrative shifts. You have done that several times this game. You dropped your vote on Athena and now focused on two different players. Your "joke" vote earlier, the parked vote on Fable, it does not follow one consistent narrative. This is why I think you're scum. 

[Bluedoom]

I got things that happened out of game but I'd prefer another person to Hydra with me, I kinda want to lock myself out of the game while I'm away,  if not possible outright sub me out. 

[Bibbon]

This is why I disagree with the scum read on Athena, especially the Snike (?) slot is looking the worse for it. I'm not calling them scum as of yet, but you should know that poor logic is more likely to come from town than it is from scum. Anybody who has played a few games should know this.  It's so easy for scum to pull apart the reads and the logic and push for mislynches. 

[Bluedoom]

@SB.

[BBM]

anyways I reread walrein. tbh he didn't actually have many suspicions beyond athena and then marth. the former was a kind of RVSy reason that he parked on for a bit too long and the latter was a pretty shallow one-liner. but when he was active he just felt more comfortable then he did as scum in cuphead? like there was a post where he was joking about how he was planning on using his reputation as a flaker to slack in this game, and i dont think he would have wanted to draw attention to that as scum.

come back @Walrein :( just bc you realized rein's not playing doesn't mean you have to take his flaker mantle

fwiw I also assumed weapons was trolling in my reread but I can see why via might not have. refa's sheeping of sully confused me more than his sheeping of weapons though. regardless what's the scum intent there on via/refa's part eclipse? if that action of weapons is null bc the odds of a turbolynch were so low, shouldn't the same logic be applied to the people who sheeped him? especially since town weapons would presumably say he was trolling before the lynch happened?

[Bibbon]

Just now, Bibbon said:

This is why I disagree with the scum read on Athena, especially the Snike (?) slot is looking the worse for it. I'm not calling them scum as of yet, but you should know that poor logic is more likely to come from town than it is from scum. Anybody who has played a few games should know this.  It's so easy for scum to pull apart the reads and the logic and push for mislynches. 

From this perspective, does Weapons not look scummy? 

 

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

4 minutes ago, Bibbon said:

I'm good at seeing contexts and narratives, which is how I scum hunt. I don't harp on players for flaws in logic, that is, if their actions make sense.  Because I know that both village and wolf do that, since most people aren't logical all the time. This is why a more effective method of catching scum is by seeing how their narrative shifts. You have done that several times this game. You dropped your vote on Athena and now focused on two different players. Your "joke" vote earlier, the parked vote on Fable, it does not follow one consistent narrative. This is why I think you're scum. 

Ah but you forgot about the classic town narrative: mafia is hard and i'm paranoid about everything

[BBM]

1 minute ago, Bibbon said:

This is why I disagree with the scum read on Athena, especially the Snike (?) slot is looking the worse for it. I'm not calling them scum as of yet, but you should know that poor logic is more likely to come from town than it is from scum. Anybody who has played a few games should know this.  It's so easy for scum to pull apart the reads and the logic and push for mislynches. 

i think that while it's true that both town and mafia can have bad logic, I think it's going a step too far to say that town are MORE likely to have bad logic. scum can also have bad logic because they have to force reads and make up reasoning and sometimes they cant achieve that while maintaining good/consistent logic.

[Junk]

Yeah turns out i can't count and I thought the phase ended at 4:15 not 3:15 or whatever so I went to go to spanish class and by the time I got home phase was over.

 

I reread refa cuz i felt like i was forgetting about him and i usually don't forget about refa and he does bother me. Think eclipse addressed already how refa's lynch priority on page 12 was bizarre because he was voting satsuma yet had two other people higher than him one which was zeus whom refa called null. Moving onto page 19 I guess he accidentally voted Satsuma? This doesn't seem to make any sense though considering he said that'd he'd be fine with voting for either of them on his vote on Satsuma and somehow Zeus is above Satsuma.  Zeus is still up, but only for consolidation which gives me the impression that zeus dropped for ??? He also notes that he thinks the cases on me are good but that I wouldn't be able to make the big "reads" post as scum when the cases on me were criticizing me for my lack of meaningful reads outside of kirsche. Part of his on athena also makes no sense. He says that he dislikes athena's interactions with zeus because athena is "obviously" scumreading him when that's not blatantly true. Athena at worst calls Zeus' posts bad and explicitly states that he found Zeus null (before he came to the concslusion that Zeus was townie). It just feels like he's trying to twist athena's words into something they aren't.  His vote on me is a misrep (for the same reason as kirche who i'll explain below). His end of the day play can be excused by him trying to catch up although it does frustrate me that we never got to see a response to Bartozio's answer. Main thing I've seen from his D2 is that he somehow forgot about his Athena and Zeus reads and somehow he's not confident on me despite the fact that he had a good amount of conviction aside from the play style issue. Maybe it's because he's super busy or something but refa feels disconnected and I feel like he's just fine with whatever.

Also this isn't really scummy but funny is that a lot of refa's athena read comes from a post from satsuma (page 16) which i'm inclined to believe is a fuckup.

I STILL feel the worst about kirsche tho. Again I feel he's misrepresenting me. Implies that i've kept on saying i'll update with reads later ("can't keep getting away") when i've said that once. States that I never read his interpretation and unless I missed something I already explained how it doesn't make sense to come to the conclusion that BBM had a read on via based on what BBM said. Furthermore it's extremely frustrating that he says i'm "coasting" on my reads when i've barely been active. I'd say up to this point i've made maybe 3 significant posts: kirsche vote, kirsche and eclipse stuff, and finally my marth/athena reads so I feel like he's been trying to paint me as more active who's done nothing. Also he states that I never updated my read beyond his BBM vote when I literally stated that I was keeping my vote on him was because I was also bothered how he sheeped Marth's logic about my waffling where 2 of the 3 quotes had nothing to do with waffling. He also just handwaves one of my reads as OMGUS without actually looking at the logic behind it. (assuming he's referring to my read on marth)? Also his reasoning for voting bartozio over athena doesn't seem very good. He doesn't want to lynch co networker because ??? and a comment about his vote switch looking like flailing scum which i'm not sure how. How does scum benefit from switching to a person with far less votes on them? While he had stated before that he was stuck between the two it bothers me how he asks snike  for why athena was scummy, ignores snike's response and votes bart because of really vague reasons. 

Marth is still the same based off play, his last few posts seemed to just be reiterating how i've done nothing which is frustrating when i've barely been active. IDK about his claim since I suck at rolespec. 

Another  scummy thing I noticed with athena is that his vote switch from Satsuma to Nightmare (page 21) seems unnatural. Athena's vote according to Athena is because Satsuma wasn't providing reads (or I guess definitive opinions would be better) yet athena quotes a post from Satsuma where he does the exact same thing where he says some stuff but isn't able come to a definite conclusion yet this time Athena likes it? Looking at the context of the situation the pressure on Satsuma seemed to be dying down and it feels like athena was trying to look for a new target. Also says he doesn't like the marth wagon but I'm 99% sure somewhere that he said that he found Marth's entrance to be "mediocre" which was what the cases on Marth were about so that also makes no sense. This makes his bartozio vote look much worse IMO because he later prioritizes bartozio over marth over a disappointing post from bart when we're never given the reason why he doesn't like the marth wagon (when he seemingly agreed with the marth cases before). Regarding athena's response to me, the main thing that gave me the impression you were trying to avoid confrontation was the removal of your vote when you had no reason to. 

Kirsche>refa=athena>marth

Kirsche gives me the worst vibes because i feel like his whole case is a gigantic misrep and considering that seems to be his biggest read that's a red flag to me and also his end of the day play is super vague and it's really bad how he just ignored snike's response. Refa and athena both have a lot of inconsistencies in their logic which bug me alot. Marth is basically the same as before. He hasn't been very active.

##vote kirsche

 

 

I still need to reread a few people.  playing games with a large amount of people is really difficult. I keep on forgetting about people.

 

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

14 minutes ago, Bibbon said:

I'm good at seeing contexts and narratives, which is how I scum hunt. I don't harp on players for flaws in logic, that is, if their actions make sense.  Because I know that both village and wolf do that, since most people aren't logical all the time. This is why a more effective method of catching scum is by seeing how their narrative shifts. You have done that several times this game. You dropped your vote on Athena and now focused on two different players. Your "joke" vote earlier, the parked vote on Fable, it does not follow one consistent narrative. This is why I think you're scum. 

FTR, I agree that focusing on correctness of logic kinda sucks on its own, but it is still indicative as BBM said. But the same can be said about consistent narrative, or really any soft scumtell; none of them are outright indicative by themselves, and relying on only one leads you to tunneling. When I played on this site before, I focused a lot more on tonality and how nervous players appeared to be, which was pretty effective, but it lead to some games where I was really confident about some reads which turned out to be wrong, and which I didn't have a good justification for. Since coming back (as of 3 games ago), I've tried to be more balanced in reading in terms of considering logic, meta, narrative (I need to work on this admittedly), tone, etc cause for someone to be scum the whole puzzle has to make sense. Unfortunately, this is really fucking hard to do, and I end up really unsure about thing, plus I'm just piloting, but I think you should see that if you go back and read my posts; there's a lot of places where I try to weigh things against each other, eg many many cases where I disagree with logic but don't conclude that that's coming from scum.

[eclipse]

26 minutes ago, Bibbon said:

I'm good at seeing contexts and narratives, which is how I scum hunt. I don't harp on players for flaws in logic, that is, if their actions make sense.  Because I know that both village and wolf do that, since most people aren't logical all the time. This is why a more effective method of catching scum is by seeing how their narrative shifts. You have done that several times this game. You dropped your vote on Athena and now focused on two different players. Your "joke" vote earlier, the parked vote on Fable, it does not follow one consistent narrative. This is why I think you're scum. 

Were you able to read the announcement at the beginning of D2?

21 minutes ago, BBM said:

fwiw I also assumed weapons was trolling in my reread but I can see why via might not have. refa's sheeping of sully confused me more than his sheeping of weapons though. regardless what's the scum intent there on via/refa's part eclipse? if that action of weapons is null bc the odds of a turbolynch were so low, shouldn't the same logic be applied to the people who sheeped him? especially since town weapons would presumably say he was trolling before the lynch happened?

It's odd behavior from two players who I expect better from.  The obvious answer is "an easy lynch".  Looks slightly worse on Refa due to the generally detached tone he has.

However, my vote is on neither.

4 minutes ago, Junk said:

Yeah turns out i can't count and I thought the phase ended at 4:15 not 3:15 or whatever so I went to go to spanish class and by the time I got home phase was over.

 

I reread refa cuz i felt like i was forgetting about him and i usually don't forget about refa and he does bother me. Think eclipse addressed already how refa's lynch priority on page 12 was bizarre because he was voting satsuma yet had two other people higher than him one which was zeus whom refa called null. Moving onto page 19 I guess he accidentally voted Satsuma? This doesn't seem to make any sense though considering he said that'd he'd be fine with voting for either of them on his vote on Satsuma and somehow Zeus is above Satsuma.  Zeus is still up, but only for consolidation which gives me the impression that zeus dropped for ??? He also notes that he thinks the cases on me are good but that I wouldn't be able to make the big "reads" post as scum when the cases on me were criticizing me for my lack of meaningful reads outside of kirsche. Part of his on athena also makes no sense. He says that he dislikes athena's interactions with zeus because athena is "obviously" scumreading him when that's not blatantly true. Athena at worst calls Zeus' posts bad and explicitly states that he found Zeus null (before he came to the concslusion that Zeus was townie). It just feels like he's trying to twist athena's words into something they aren't.  His vote on me is a misrep (for the same reason as kirche who i'll explain below). His end of the day play can be excused by him trying to catch up although it does frustrate me that we never got to see a response to Bartozio's answer. Main thing I've seen from his D2 is that he somehow forgot about his Athena and Zeus reads and somehow he's not confident on me despite the fact that he had a good amount of conviction aside from the play style issue. Maybe it's because he's super busy or something but refa feels disconnected and I feel like he's just fine with whatever.

Also this isn't really scummy but funny is that a lot of refa's athena read comes from a post from satsuma (page 16) which i'm inclined to believe is a fuckup.

I STILL feel the worst about kirsche tho. Again I feel he's misrepresenting me. Implies that i've kept on saying i'll update with reads later ("can't keep getting away") when i've said that once. States that I never read his interpretation and unless I missed something I already explained how it doesn't make sense to come to the conclusion that BBM had a read on via based on what BBM said. Furthermore it's extremely frustrating that he says i'm "coasting" on my reads when i've barely been active. I'd say up to this point i've made maybe 3 significant posts: kirsche vote, kirsche and eclipse stuff, and finally my marth/athena reads so I feel like he's been trying to paint me as more active who's done nothing. Also he states that I never updated my read beyond his BBM vote when I literally stated that I was keeping my vote on him was because I was also bothered how he sheeped Marth's logic about my waffling where 2 of the 3 quotes had nothing to do with waffling. He also just handwaves one of my reads as OMGUS without actually looking at the logic behind it. (assuming he's referring to my read on marth)? Also his reasoning for voting bartozio over athena doesn't seem very good. He doesn't want to lynch co networker because ??? and a comment about his vote switch looking like flailing scum which i'm not sure how. How does scum benefit from switching to a person with far less votes on them? While he had stated before that he was stuck between the two it bothers me how he asks snike  for why athena was scummy, ignores snike's response and votes bart because of really vague reasons. 

Marth is still the same based off play, his last few posts seemed to just be reiterating how i've done nothing which is frustrating when i've barely been active. IDK about his claim since I suck at rolespec. 

Another  scummy thing I noticed with athena is that his vote switch from Satsuma to Nightmare (page 21) seems unnatural. Athena's vote according to Athena is because Satsuma wasn't providing reads (or I guess definitive opinions would be better) yet athena quotes a post from Satsuma where he does the exact same thing where he says some stuff but isn't able come to a definite conclusion yet this time Athena likes it? Looking at the context of the situation the pressure on Satsuma seemed to be dying down and it feels like athena was trying to look for a new target. Also says he doesn't like the marth wagon but I'm 99% sure somewhere that he said that he found Marth's entrance to be "mediocre" which was what the cases on Marth were about so that also makes no sense. This makes his bartozio vote look much worse IMO because he later prioritizes bartozio over marth over a disappointing post from bart when we're never given the reason why he doesn't like the marth wagon (when he seemingly agreed with the marth cases before). Regarding athena's response to me, the main thing that gave me the impression you were trying to avoid confrontation was the removal of your vote when you had no reason to. 

Kirsche>refa=athena>marth

Kirsche gives me the worst vibes because i feel like his whole case is a gigantic misrep and considering that seems to be his biggest read that's a red flag to me and also his end of the day play is super vague and it's really bad how he just ignored snike's response. Refa and athena both have a lot of inconsistencies in their logic which bug me alot. Marth is basically the same as before. He hasn't been very active.

##vote kirsche

 

 

I still need to reread a few people.  playing games with a large amount of people is really difficult. I keep on forgetting about people.

 

It is against SF rules to post on multiple accounts, Eury.

Ahem. . .

With Marth asking for a hydra/sub, does this change your read on him?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I thought Eury died

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

FUCK eclipse got there first

[Percivalé]

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

from two players who I expect better from.

 

31 minutes ago, Vi-astra said:

sometimes I'm pretty bad at mafia games

 

[Junk]

not really. My read on him is because of his misrep on me. Asking for a sub/hydra doesn't really change that.

[Ampharos]

hi i'm back sorry

been taking care of rl shit (didn't help that i was working+sleeping for literally the last 17 hours of d1)

will reread

[Refa]

22 minutes ago, Junk said:

I reread refa cuz i felt like i was forgetting about him and i usually don't forget about refa and he does bother me. Think eclipse addressed already how refa's lynch priority on page 12 was bizarre because he was voting satsuma yet had two other people higher than him one which was zeus whom refa called null. Moving onto page 19 I guess he accidentally voted Satsuma? This doesn't seem to make any sense though considering he said that'd he'd be fine with voting for either of them on his vote on Satsuma and somehow Zeus is above Satsuma.  Zeus is still up, but only for consolidation which gives me the impression that zeus dropped for ??? He also notes that he thinks the cases on me are good but that I wouldn't be able to make the big "reads" post as scum when the cases on me were criticizing me for my lack of meaningful reads outside of kirsche. Part of his on athena also makes no sense. He says that he dislikes athena's interactions with zeus because athena is "obviously" scumreading him when that's not blatantly true. Athena at worst calls Zeus' posts bad and explicitly states that he found Zeus null (before he came to the concslusion that Zeus was townie). It just feels like he's trying to twist athena's words into something they aren't.  His vote on me is a misrep (for the same reason as kirche who i'll explain below). His end of the day play can be excused by him trying to catch up although it does frustrate me that we never got to see a response to Bartozio's answer. Main thing I've seen from his D2 is that he somehow forgot about his Athena and Zeus reads and somehow he's not confident on me despite the fact that he had a good amount of conviction aside from the play style issue. Maybe it's because he's super busy or something but refa feels disconnected and I feel like he's just fine with whatever.

-I forgot to vote Bartozio.

-I didn't accidentally vote Satsuma.

-When did I say that Zeus was up purely for consolidation?

-I don't get why my defense of you is scummy...Like, this is some next level shit.  Do you think me making a BAD defense of you is more likely to come from scum when FYPOV you know that you're town?  What?  FTR, I don't think my defense was bad but you're saying it is and also adding it to your scumread.

-Athena's tone and language came across as a scumread to me and I was too lazy to reread.  You're ascribing to scum intent that would make way more sense just me being lazy (and me being lazy doesn't mean I'm town, it's just null).

-I didn't respond to Bartozio's answer because updating my case on a dead guy is not helping anyone.  I think his thing is dumb though, obviously my issues w/his thing were based on his followups like ???  I don't get his point.

-Again, you're ascribing to scum intent me forgetting my reads, even though...why would I do that as scum?  Also like, my conviction on a read can change over time, especially when I'm doubting myself after a mislynch on someone I felt pretty confident was scum.

I'm like genuinely amazed at your read on me.  I'm pretty sure most of my reads have been consistent and have had logical progressions.  You can argue that a lot of my reads haven't evolved much and that I haven't been proactive at all which would be true (this game is hard), but saying that my reads are inconsistent or made in bad faith is incorrect.

33 minutes ago, Junk said:

I STILL feel the worst about kirsche tho. Again I feel he's misrepresenting me. Implies that i've kept on saying i'll update with reads later ("can't keep getting away") when i've said that once. States that I never read his interpretation and unless I missed something I already explained how it doesn't make sense to come to the conclusion that BBM had a read on via based on what BBM said. Furthermore it's extremely frustrating that he says i'm "coasting" on my reads when i've barely been active. I'd say up to this point i've made maybe 3 significant posts: kirsche vote, kirsche and eclipse stuff, and finally my marth/athena reads so I feel like he's been trying to paint me as more active who's done nothing. Also he states that I never updated my read beyond his BBM vote when I literally stated that I was keeping my vote on him was because I was also bothered how he sheeped Marth's logic about my waffling where 2 of the 3 quotes had nothing to do with waffling. He also just handwaves one of my reads as OMGUS without actually looking at the logic behind it. (assuming he's referring to my read on marth)? Also his reasoning for voting bartozio over athena doesn't seem very good. He doesn't want to lynch co networker because ??? and a comment about his vote switch looking like flailing scum which i'm not sure how. How does scum benefit from switching to a person with far less votes on them? While he had stated before that he was stuck between the two it bothers me how he asks snike  for why athena was scummy, ignores snike's response and votes bart because of really vague reasons. 

Marth is still the same based off play, his last few posts seemed to just be reiterating how i've done nothing which is frustrating when i've barely been active. IDK about his claim since I suck at rolespec. 

Another  scummy thing I noticed with athena is that his vote switch from Satsuma to Nightmare (page 21) seems unnatural. Athena's vote according to Athena is because Satsuma wasn't providing reads (or I guess definitive opinions would be better) yet athena quotes a post from Satsuma where he does the exact same thing where he says some stuff but isn't able come to a definite conclusion yet this time Athena likes it? Looking at the context of the situation the pressure on Satsuma seemed to be dying down and it feels like athena was trying to look for a new target. Also says he doesn't like the marth wagon but I'm 99% sure somewhere that he said that he found Marth's entrance to be "mediocre" which was what the cases on Marth were about so that also makes no sense. This makes his bartozio vote look much worse IMO because he later prioritizes bartozio over marth over a disappointing post from bart when we're never given the reason why he doesn't like the marth wagon (when he seemingly agreed with the marth cases before). Regarding athena's response to me, the main thing that gave me the impression you were trying to avoid confrontation was the removal of your vote when you had no reason to. 

Kirsche>refa=athena>marth

Kirsche gives me the worst vibes because i feel like his whole case is a gigantic misrep and considering that seems to be his biggest read that's a red flag to me and also his end of the day play is super vague and it's really bad how he just ignored snike's response. Refa and athena both have a lot of inconsistencies in their logic which bug me alot. Marth is basically the same as before. He hasn't been very active.

##vote kirsche

FTR, this is why I defended you.  I think your Kirsche read is good and IMO it has conviction that I can't see Scum!You faking.  Also your frustration at Marth/Kirsche is understandable.  This isn't really something you can control but I'm kind of frustrated that your top four scumreads are people who are okay with lynching you and Athena.

Also yeah, that's actually a good point on Athena.  Would vote there now.  I know he said that Zeus was null to him, but those interactions still bother me.  Don't really remember anything else he did before, and it feels like he's less of a presence today (not scummy, but makes it hard to keep my read updated).

I'd vote Zeus as well.  I read BBM's JB case and I'm like...I could definitely see JB being scum, but there's nothing in that case that makes me think "YES THIS IS THE ONE".  The Shinori paranoia is real lol.  I feel like at least 2 of Snike/BBM/Eclipse/Walrein/Kirsche/Shinori are going to flip scum but Snike's claim is good, BBM's tone is good, Walrein's ED1 was good and he'll probably be an easy read when he gets back, and I...can't get a good read on Eclipse/Kirsche/Shinori.

@Fenrir Aesir What happened bro

##Vote: Athena

[Refa]

I didn't sheep Weapons BTW, I thought he was trolling and Sully was the Tracker...

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, Refa said:

I didn't sheep Weapons BTW, I thought he was trolling and Sully was the Tracker...

Now I'm confused.

[Refa]

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

Now I'm confused.

I thought Sully was implying a GUILTY by asking Kirsche what he did, not that his role was to literally check if Kirsche had a night action (useful!).

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Refa said:

I thought Sully was implying a GUILTY by asking Kirsche what he did, not that his role was to literally check if Kirsche had a night action (useful!).

 First Eury steals Junko's account, then BBM gets to Refa.

I have a lot of people to ban. ;/

[Refa]

Just now, eclipse said:

 First Eury steals Junko's account, then BBM gets to Refa.

I have a lot of people to ban. ;/

The best part about me making mistakes is that I can cover for them by saying that I'm roleplaying as my character.

[Refa]

1 hour ago, Bibbon said:

This is why I disagree with the scum read on Athena, especially the Snike (?) slot is looking the worse for it. I'm not calling them scum as of yet, but you should know that poor logic is more likely to come from town than it is from scum. Anybody who has played a few games should know this.  It's so easy for scum to pull apart the reads and the logic and push for mislynches. 

FTR, I don't care about Athena's logic being poor.  I think his tone during his Zeus back and forth was weirdly passive, his reasons for backing down off the Satsuma wagon are questionable (as in, they're not internally consistent for him), and him not voting Marth over himself but then voting Bartozio over himself despite having a weak Bartozio vote is crazy.  Why does Town!Athena have a double standard like this?  Why are these in general more likely to come from town?

[Mackc2]

How do I find all the messages from specific players?