We Need Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 5 After All! - GAME OVER

[Fable]

2 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

Responded yes, you have not initiated conversation. 

I was the last one to post in there, how a conversation works is one person talks and then the other one responds. If you're not going to post in the QT how would a conversation happen? 

[Mackc2]

I don't even understand the point of a QT though, why would I tell my thoughts to just one person who I don't know the alignment of when I could talk in game chat instead where I know for sure that at least some town will see it? Can someone please explain this to me.

[Refa]

1 minute ago, Mackc2 said:

I don't even understand the point of a QT though, why would I tell my thoughts to just one person who I don't know the alignment of when I could talk in game chat instead where I know for sure that at least some town will see it? Can someone please explain this to me.

Getting responses from one person in real time makes it far easier to tell their alignment than heavily segmented posts.  As scum, it's harder to fake real time responses, which is why OC is considered inherently townsided in the first place.  I'd advice talking to Fable on Discord if you can, it's much more convenient than QT's and SB/Iris let me do that last game w/Via.

[SullyMcGully]

Refa feels like he's moving through reads really quickly. Like, I'm trying to react to his Athena content and then he is townreading Athena, I start to sheep his BBM logic and I was actually in the middle of writing a post about it when life happened and then I get back and Refa is agreeing with BBM's Weapons logic. I won't say for sure that this is scummy (in fact it would be really scummy to try to pull off a lynch on a major contributor like Refa when poorer-quality contributors like Mack are under suspicion) but it is giving me mixed signals. I don't really have time to develop a read on a complex situation like this so for the time being, I'm just not going to think about Refa or Snike being scum for now.

I'm also done thinking about Bibbon/Kaoz, like Makaze and Refa said is she was an actual jailer then it'll become apparent when her sub gets killed tonight. I don't want to lynch a potential jailer, but her claim still makes no sense. I think it was Fable who said it was a normal thing for her? Anyway, I'll leave it be.

I liked JB's latest post OK, I also really liked whoever it was who pointed out the timestamps on JB's posts: in my readthrough, I paid no attention to timestamps, but JB's content makes sense coming from a townie at awkward times. Like, scum would probably lack the motivation to post at inconvenient times, the fact that JB has posted despite being drowsy makes him seem more town in my book. 

I was going to vote Mack for pressure, but looks like he's back with us again. I'll look back over BBM and Kirsche tomorrow, maybe put a vote there, but I'm done for tonight. 

Today felt really unproductive for me as far as this game goes. And I'm afraid that, with my schedule, my content will only go downhill now that the weekend is over.

[SullyMcGully]

Unvote

[Fable]

I'm kind of speechless. 

Okay so one getting to question someone alone is super useful and also being able to bounce ideas off another person is also incredibly useful. It's like asking why are masons super strong. Granted it's a neighbor chat but point is private chats are a very powerful thing if the players are the same alignment and if not it can be good for figuring that sort of thing out too. . 

[BBM]

so this is basically my PoE:

obvtown people: via, refa, snike/satsuma

other town:

marth/omega: i think marth's claim is town and I also think omega has been super good since subbing in

elie/sully: don't see sully making that claim as scum. reads like newbtown getting overeager bc they thought they had something. iirc as newbscum in antihero he defaulted to asking sb/iris a lot of questions before doing anything big

bibbon/kaoz: covered why I thought bibbon's response to me was town. also don't see the jailer claim coming from scum.

fable: i don't see him defending bibbon with meta as scum ed1. everyone was pushing him for not having a lot of content at that time, doesn't make sense to reveal townmeta that nobody else knew when he could have just pushed bibbon.

leaning town/would not lynch today:

nightmare/mack: covered why this is a bad lynch at this point in the game. this might still be a scum slot but the upside is not worth the possibility of lynching a protective role that is very likely to kill itself if it's town and end this discussion for us

zeus/makaze: said a lot about zeus already. he was probably higher on this list earlier but it makes me uncomfortable that he stopped posting as soon as people stopped voting him. makaze's posts are fine so far though i think.

walrein: whenever he's around and been posting i've liked his tone.

athena: defended him a lot already.

shinori: tbh this is just a gutvibe overall but he's going to be the next person I reread.

remaining: eclipse, jb, earendil/gaius, junko/radicate, kirsche, weapons, anime/fenrir/alette

no opinions on the gaius and alette slots obviously, and they should get some more time to give content. i want to lynch either weapons or eclipse today, would consolidate on junko > jb > kirsche if I had to.

[Refa]

Fable, Mackc2 is a relatively new player so I think his stance is fine.

2 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

Refa feels like he's moving through reads really quickly. Like, I'm trying to react to his Athena content and then he is townreading Athena, I start to sheep his BBM logic and I was actually in the middle of writing a post about it when life happened and then I get back and Refa is agreeing with BBM's Weapons logic. I won't say for sure that this is scummy (in fact it would be really scummy to try to pull off a lynch on a major contributor like Refa when poorer-quality contributors like Mack are under suspicion) but it is giving me mixed signals. I don't really have time to develop a read on a complex situation like this so for the time being, I'm just not going to think about Refa or Snike being scum for now.

I can get your problems w/my Athena read since I did 180 on the slot but I don't really see what's wrong w/my BBM read...BBM made several huge posts that should have (and did) have an impact on my read on him.

I don't think it's fair to townread people for how much they're contributing.  Some people don't have the time to post as much as I do, and they shouldn't be regarded as lesser reads just because of that.

2 minutes ago, BBM said:

so this is basically my PoE:

obvtown people: via, refa, snike/satsuma

other town:

marth/omega: i think marth's claim is town and I also think omega has been super good since subbing in

elie/sully: don't see sully making that claim as scum. reads like newbtown getting overeager bc they thought they had something. iirc as newbscum in antihero he defaulted to asking sb/iris a lot of questions before doing anything big

bibbon/kaoz: covered why I thought bibbon's response to me was town. also don't see the jailer claim coming from scum.

fable: i don't see him defending bibbon with meta as scum ed1. everyone was pushing him for not having a lot of content at that time, doesn't make sense to reveal townmeta that nobody else knew when he could have just pushed bibbon.

leaning town/would not lynch today:

nightmare/mack: covered why this is a bad lynch at this point in the game. this might still be a scum slot but the upside is not worth the possibility of lynching a protective role that is very likely to kill itself if it's town and end this discussion for us

zeus/makaze: said a lot about zeus already. he was probably higher on this list earlier but it makes me uncomfortable that he stopped posting as soon as people stopped voting him. makaze's posts are fine so far though i think.

walrein: whenever he's around and been posting i've liked his tone.

athena: defended him a lot already.

shinori: tbh this is just a gutvibe overall but he's going to be the next person I reread.

remaining: eclipse, jb, earendil/gaius, junko/radicate, kirsche, weapons, anime/fenrir/alette

no opinions on the gaius and alette slots obviously, and they should get some more time to give content. i want to lynch either weapons or eclipse today, would consolidate on junko > jb > kirsche if I had to.

I'm curious as to what you think about mine/Snike's interactions then.  Why is Snike obvious town FYPOV?  Why isn't Kirsche town FYPOV?

Can you explain what posts on Shinori gave you a gut town read on him?  Don't even have to link the posts, just give me something here.

I would consolidate on Weapons, I don't know about Eclipse.  This time, I don't think it's your case that has issues but I'm just...uncomfortable w/it.

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

I still say lynch Radicate for sure today, then vig kirsche if he's town. But I feel good about a Radicate lynch.

Otherwise, kirsche and I are just going to continue to tunnel him into D3 lol.

[SullyMcGully]

OK, this might make me more suspect, but can I say something? Yeah, I was terrible as scum in Antiheroes. BUT I was overworked and flooded with IRL stuff. And I was really just demotivated during that game because I didn't like having to be scum and really only played it because I felt like BBM needed players to start it. And TBH I hated having to check with IriSB every time I wanted to do something because I thought it made my posts feel unnatural. I didn't like the anonymous aspect either, Mafia is a social event for me and that kind of ruined it. And honestly, a lot of those mistakes are things I don't see myself doing a second time.

So when people hold that game up as the "Sully scum standard", I don't feel like it's very accurate. I guess I shouldn't care because it is helping me to get townread a little better, but when I see reasoning I don't agree with being used to make any sort of case, I just feel like some players are going for an easy read.

How I played as scum in Antiheroes should be of very little value in considering how I would play as scum in this game. Scum needs easy reads, these include townreads, and if people are going to townread me, I want them to get it straight.

This post was probably a mistake.

[Makaze]

1 hour ago, Alette said:

This vote is really bad with Bartozio flipping town

I actually agree. But I still think that he is unlikely to be Mafia based on the earlier post I quoted.

Tinfoiling that he could be ITP.

I am reading but have been out for the night. I am still on Omega for now but am willing to move to rad/junk's slot with rad subbing out. Unless we think it will get modkilled.

Omega you are pinging me as overly aggressive. You got very defensive when someone rolespec'd and tried to shut down any notion of aolcong by that route. You also dislike anyone giving "easy" town reads. In general you seem to be against PoE itself. Is that wrong? What kinds of PoE do you believe we can do?

[BBM]

yeah i didn't realize you actually thought snike was scummy until just now. i'll reread your case but uh this feels like town v town to me

[Refa]

2 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

OK, this might make me more suspect, but can I say something? Yeah, I was terrible as scum in Antiheroes. BUT I was overworked and flooded with IRL stuff. And I was really just demotivated during that game because I didn't like having to be scum and really only played it because I felt like BBM needed players to start it. And TBH I hated having to check with IriSB every time I wanted to do something because I thought it made my posts feel unnatural. I didn't like the anonymous aspect either, Mafia is a social event for me and that kind of ruined it. And honestly, a lot of those mistakes are things I don't see myself doing a second time.

So when people hold that game up as the "Sully scum standard", I don't feel like it's very accurate. I guess I shouldn't care because it is helping me to get townread a little better, but when I see reasoning I don't agree with being used to make any sort of case, I just feel like some players are going for an easy read.

How I played as scum in Antiheroes should be of very little value in considering how I would play as scum in this game. Scum needs easy reads, these include townreads, and if people are going to townread me, I want them to get it straight.

This post was probably a mistake.

FTR, I don't think you'd play scum exactly like in Antiheroes but I feel like your posts would still read very differently if you were scum.

Also in what world does Scum!You not use the "I'm playing way better than my last scum game, ergo I'm not scum!" as a crutch lol.

[SullyMcGully]

@Omega. here's an idea! Why don't we lynch you and if you flip scum, we'll be able to assume both Kirsche and Junko are town!

That was a joke, however, Omega's confidence almost would suggest that he already has a fair idea how things are going to turn out. Could be trying to take out two townies in fast motion. 

Could be his personality though.

Question: 

How do we know for certain that there is a vig this game?

 

[Refa]

2 minutes ago, BBM said:

yeah i didn't realize you actually thought snike was scummy until just now. i'll reread your case but uh this feels like town v town to me

if we're town/town then you're going to have to explain that further before we stab each other buddy

[Makaze]

Back at PC.

That post feels genuine from Sully and I don't see any point in making it as Mafia, but it's largely NAI. Just that he'd probably avoid drawing too much attention in this situation.

I definitely dislike Omega pushing only two worlds.

Omega, on top of my PoE question, who would be your third Mafia suspect? And which of your two suspects do you think make more sense as that person's partner?

[Refa]

2 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

@Omega. here's an idea! Why don't we lynch you and if you flip scum, we'll be able to assume both Kirsche and Junko are town!

That was a joke, however, Omega's confidence almost would suggest that he already has a fair idea how things are going to turn out. Could be trying to take out two townies in fast motion. 

Could be his personality though.

Question: 

How do we know for certain that there is a vig this game?

That's how Omega plays as both alignments as my understanding.  The difference to me is that as town his arguments are less contrived and when he's pushed on his reads, he has convincing responses.

Not at all.

[Makaze]

Based on the content I've seen, there are only a few people who I haven't felt any town vibes about. One of them is eclipse; I would still like to explore that wagon, partially because I would be stoked if I correctly lynched eclipse right after subbing in.

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

7 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Omega you are pinging me as overly aggressive. You got very defensive when someone rolespec'd and tried to shut down any notion of aolcong by that route. You also dislike anyone giving "easy" town reads. In general you seem to be against PoE itself. Is that wrong? What kinds of PoE do you believe we can do?

I'm aggressive regardless of alignment. I've been rather tame this game in comparison to how I usually like to play.

But yeah, I came in and stirred the pot with some strong stances. This game was boring; the biggest wagon was a bunch of people being wrong about Marth, so I wanted to stir the pot and get some discussion going and get people thinking.

Yeah, rolespeccing in the way Snike tried to do it was bad. I stand by it. This is role madness, SB has literally done games where rolespeccing will lead Town no where. It might have some use later in the game, but not in the way he tried to present it on D2.

I don't think people giving easy town reads is scummy in itself. I just caution people against doing it towards people who really haven't done much to warrant them. I've lost a lot of games because people give some town reads on D1 then fail to reevaluate the reads; I've done it myself too and with this gamestate (I sense a lot of infighting and some good scum play) I think almost anything is possible.

People are going to make town reads and try to PoE their way to victory, whatever. I'm not playing sheriff to people's playstyles and how they want to approach the game.

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, Omega. said:

I'm aggressive regardless of alignment. I've been rather tame this game in comparison to how I usually like to play.

But yeah, I came in and stirred the pot with some strong stances. This game was boring; the biggest wagon was a bunch of people being wrong about Marth, so I wanted to stir the pot and get some discussion going and get people thinking.

Yeah, rolespeccing in the way Snike tried to do it was bad. I stand by it. This is role madness, SB has literally done games where rolespeccing will lead Town no where. It might have some use later in the game, but not in the way he tried to present it on D2.

I don't think people giving easy town reads is scummy in itself. I just caution people against doing it towards people who really haven't done much to warrant them. I've lost a lot of games because people give some town reads on D1 then fail to reevaluate the reads; I've done it myself too and with this gamestate (I sense a lot of infighting and some good scum play) I think almost anything is possible.

People are going to make town reads and try to PoE their way to victory, whatever. I'm not playing sheriff to people's playstyles and how they want to approach the game.

I like this post and it was better than I expected, but I still can't fully get behind your kirsche/rad wagons.

[Refa]

Omega, what is your read on Snike?  I agree his reasoning for wanting to lynch you is not good, but it's not scummy.

[Makaze]

6 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Omega, on top of my PoE question, who would be your third Mafia suspect? And which of your two suspects do you think make more sense as that person's partner?

@Omega. Still curious about this, though.

[eclipse]

I need a bookmark.  This is a bookmark.

Reread from page 46.  And then redo reads, because this is now Unlimited Sub Works.

[Snike]

I am still making a reads post but I'm going to go make supper. I think I got a little heated there; sorry if i offended anyone.

@Makaze We don't know for sure but I lowkey think we might get one if we don't have it already

Hint: Town Akruru

posting the ones I have and I'll work on the others later

Alette: I got a strong townread from fenrir when he subbed in end of day 1 like I don't think the interactions from 25-26 come from scum disinterested in the lynch or pushing an ML. I can't say more because the slot flaked (again). Slight town.

athena_57 I think the slot's still scum even if I'm having my doubts; I have spoken my mind on this so it doesn't need to be said again. I really think my points about what I think is coaching are still valid; it feels like too much of a jump. I was going to say some 48 stuff was throwing shade on satsuma but that's more a correction so I'm just going to leave it be. But if you're aware this isn't satsuma's first game, what do you think about the delayed role claim?

Kaoz The jailkeeper claim; I was honestly scumreading this as a unit with fable but the claim doesn't make sense as scum + it checks out on one end. My question to eclipse, had she answered yes, would've been an easy catch on this slot bc jailkeeper hooks and docs; I want to see more from kaoz but at the same time  this is Town as of now.

Lord Gaius Needs to show up more; he posted a summary of like pages 1-6. He has a slight scumread on athena but then doesn't later bc he disagrees with shinori? I also don't agree with the omgus stuff; it's part of my satsuma case; I don't know what else to say here. Null.

Omega (incomplete):  I feel like the recent stuff was really weird initially but I think tonally he's been town. Like first bigpost on sub-in, go on junko/ kirsche, that was solid. I wasn't trying to shade you w/ my disagreements it was more I was explaining my thoughts there? I feel like

Refa (Incomplete):  godfather as a fakeclaim??? On a Hydra, a slot more likely to get more suspicion??? (I use discord dark)

I'm getting heated; so I want to back away

 

Makaze I wanted to vig this slot for the d1 antics; I think other people like BBM have more or less explained some more of why it's suspicious; I don't know makaze meta but I feel like his stuff has been OK so far. Like I don't think his play has been scummy but I don't agree with a good part of it, notably eclipse.

 

The others I'll post on when I come back, as well as finish the refa/omega reads;

I do want to say that I feel like the fable/mack interaction feels town/scum; but it could be town/town over misunderstanding of the oc quicktopic. I just think that mack looks a little worse over it rn.

[Snike]

asdf that is not what I wanted to post

small :knife: is what I wanted to post