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We Need Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 5 After All! - GAME OVER


Iris
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1 minute ago, BBM said:

i think your bottom two paragraphs are mostly ok and i'm even fine with PoEing down to refa/shinori/eclipse/athena but it's really shitty to just vote shinori without saying what puts him above the other three.

if you can barely remember what any of the 4 have done then why do you single out shinori here?

which posts by kirsche or by others made you change your opinion on kirsche?

is there any order to how you would vote between those 4 people?

this post just reinforces my opinion on weapons because he still avoids actually making a case on anyone. this is the scummy way to do PoE bc he narrowed down to a few people and then basically just picked one out of the hat as opposed to actually looking more deeply into those 4 people and trying to figure out who's scummiest.

If you had a bunch of townreads and a pool of potential scumreads that would take more effort than you're willing to put in atm to sort through, what would you do with your vote? Should I just raw unvote? I remember bits from the others that seemed town while not anything from Shinori, which was the tiebreaker. Seriously though, if I was scum, I wouldn't have any trouble casing JB or sticking to kirsche or sheeping some bullshit on anyone really and would be pretty aware that have no scumreads is bad. It's because I'm actually trying to think things through for everyone, but that it's a lot of effort that I'm stuck with no good reads.

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Oh, right.  Of the subs, the two I don't want to lynch are Kaoz and Sully.  Bibbon's claim timing was weird, but her target makes sense as town - I'm a mayor, and I shouldn't have any role to interfere with.  If I was a two-part role, it would've been blocked.  For Sully, I can't see the timing of the claim + the further role stuff as mafia.  The trade-off is more details about Sully's role than I care to know about versus knowing that kirsche isn't a passive role, maybe.

I'm also inclined to think Mack is town solely based on role.  Mafia!Macho implies that there's a scum protection role (otherwise why even bother having the modifier), and that's quite a bit of info to give out for free.  It also implies other night kills, but we've only seen one so far.

NOW I'm off to reread kirsche/Junko.

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7 minutes ago, Alette said:

I also feel like your posting is a bit off in some way D1.

That was a common sentiment early on in Day 1, yes.

1 minute ago, Omega. said:

Thanks eclipse.

Reminder to myself to read the athena case. If someone could link/quote it, that'd be appreciated.

These  two posts are the bulk of my bess fren's (Snike's) case on Athena, but I suppose you should ISO and all that too.

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11 minutes ago, Omega. said:

Makaze, you mentioned having a few people who haven't pinged you as having towny moments. Who are they?

Everyone I've mentioned reading are the people I've actually read. There are some people I have town feelings about but haven't read/mentioned, like Alette (just feels like town to me). Everyone else who hasn't posted is on that list but not really a fair comparison.

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9 minutes ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

If you had a bunch of townreads and a pool of potential scumreads that would take more effort than you're willing to put in atm to sort through, what would you do with your vote? Should I just raw unvote? I remember bits from the others that seemed town while not anything from Shinori, which was the tiebreaker. Seriously though, if I was scum, I wouldn't have any trouble casing JB or sticking to kirsche or sheeping some bullshit on anyone really and would be pretty aware that have no scumreads is bad. It's because I'm actually trying to think things through for everyone, but that it's a lot of effort that I'm stuck with no good reads.

Thought experiment to help you out: Let's assume Shinori is scum (honestly, I still need to respond to his response to my scumread lol not to mention BBM's).  Who do you think are his scumbuddies?  In general, who can you see being scum w/the most amount of people?

I can't get where you're coming from is my problem.  You're deliberately avoiding easy votes but you're also not doing anything against the wagons, which is what bothers me.

@Vi-astra @eclipse @BBM Please explain to me why you're hard townreading Snike (I know Eclipse did but in more words please, I can't follow that one sentence read) or at least RESPOND to my case on the slot.  Feels super shitty when you spend forever arguing a case and everyone is like "nah fam, that's obvious town lol". 

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3 minutes ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

Fuck this, I'm going to stop looking at this thread until tomorrow. I'm not getting anything done in game or out of game and it's not looking to improve. If you all want to lynch me then fuck it. I don't have any additional abilities.

Did I miss something in previous pages regarding the bolded?

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Would Announcer count as an Active Ability?  @SullyMcGully Please confirm/deny.  If it doesn't, Sully can just use his action on Weapons and clear/incriminate him.  I'm tempted to say he could do the same for Eclipse but I don't know if Scum!Mayor would necessarily have a second component to it.  Mackc2 can Martyr Sully so that scum doesn't fuck w/his actions.

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Day 2.Iris does votals again, thanks SB
RADicate (4): Omega., Refa, athena_57, Mackc2
Omega (3): Walrein, eclipse
athena_57 (2): Shinori, Snike + SatsumaFSoySoy
Mackc2 (2): Jaybee, Zkirsche
Zkirsche (2): RADicate, Mackc2
Weapons (2): BBM, Alette
eclipse (1): Makaze
Jaybee (1): Via
Shinori (1): Weapons

Not Voting: Kaoz, Lord Gaius, Fable, SullyMcGully

You have ~17 hours left in the day.  With 20 alive, it takes 7 to lynch and 14 to hammer.

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Actually, I guess Scum!Weapons could have another passive in this scenario never mind, mafia sucks.

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I'm not reading weapons scum and I see his way of narrowing down scumreads as kinda how I've been doing it and I don't agree with BBM'S case on him. sorry btw refa I have been mega behind and thus haven't paid attention to your case. I'll read it.

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I feel like mack should be on kaoz tonight; otherwise kaoz is dead

I'm doing the rest of the reads; almost done but i'm getting a little tired. I don't think I'll be doing the weapons reread tonight.

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So rather than Actual Quote everything and risk losing my post, I'm going to copy-paste a quote, then say who's it's from and what page number it's on.

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o give any sort of read on BBM would mean including Junko, so have three because Elieson gets tied into it.

Junko's post is a question regarding the hydra's alignment.  Elieson reminds me of something idiotic I did in the past, and BBM responds to it.  Of the three, I'm inclined to agree with BBM's take on the hydra slot, which is that the hydra's alignment is up in the air (paraphrased).  Feels like BBM reaches a bit for a read on Junko, which gets dropped pretty fast for a vote on someone else.  While I agree with the reason for dropping Junko, I have no idea where the Rein vote came from.  Thanks, Walrein, I totally would've relegated that to later, and probably missed it~!

##Vote: BBM

Was out of RVS, then went back in?  That's weird.

(me, page 3)

Right, the move to get out of RVS.  BBM reading skills and all.  Still, I did have an early opinion on the guy.

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ughhh i know this is dumb role spec i know but i don't think scum would have both a hydra slot AND a mayor, so one of those has to be town.
because if they had both together it's basically having an extra player, because you've got the extra voice + extra vote.

(via, page 3)

Also a good point, and a bit more relevant now that there's more roles out in the open.  However, I'm not scumreading the hydra.

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my biggest problem with his BBM vote is that he's taking bbm and vias situation out of context. BBM questioned why via was voting rvs when he implied that he had a read. BBM was voting rvs because he didn't have a read so it doesn't make sense to say he's hypocritical. I also don't see what's wrong with asking questions when you have nothing else to go off of. Although that's more personal opinion I suppose but the above point still stands.

(Junko, page 5)

The good thing about something like this is that I can read backwards and figure out whether or not it's true.  So. . .

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Anyway is Rein the best use of your vote right now? You criticise Via for keeping their vote on RVS yet you're basically doing the same. I also think the way Refa approached this situation ("active players are all townie so I'll sheep one for pressure") is townie but the way you've kinda come in and asked a bunch of questions that you admitted you're doing out of obligation(like with the Via push) just for content looks scummy. This is also different to weapons who has done nothing.

(kirsche, page 5)

This is what kirsche said that prompted the Junko read.

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i agree with weaons fwiw i'm basically asking questions for the sake ofi t ucz i' townreading most of hte cativep post s

---

idk what happened to hat last post

i swear i read the past two pages two times looking for it and i can't ifnd it help

all  can find is you saying you weren't that cnfindet in ti but since yure voting rvs i dont unerstnd ihy u woudlnt just vote naywa

(BBM, page 4)

And this is what BBM said.  Jumbled text aside, I'm more in agreement with Junko's assessment of the situation.  BBM had his moments earlier (like voting Rein), but this post reads more like a side comment than anything.  Definitely wouldn't vote someone for posting something like this.

Something is causing my browser to lag like crazy, so I'm going to post this for now.  Yes I'm going to be looking at everything with this kind of detail.  Figure out your read on my based off of this, since i don't think I'll have time for much else.

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He didn't have a read but by commenting on Via and I think eclipse there is something else just like with Via. It's not that he was asking questins it's that it didn't feel like the questions were going to do anything and were made just for the sake of asking questions. He even admitted as such.

(kirsche, page 7)

Response to Junko's vote.  Fair enough, for now.

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@Zkirsche I never got the impression that BBM had via as a read. It seemed like to me that he was asking via some questions wheras i'm 99% sure via explicitly said something about whatever walrein said being "antitown" or something to that effect and i'll sheep BBM's logic that asking questions is better than doing nothing especially when it's earlygame. 

@eclipseEclipse kinda bothers me although it may be i'm taking her words too literally. I think her logic on Athena is okay although imo I could see why you wouldn't want to be overly aggressive outside of pushing reads so as to not make people mad. Why does the "disconnect" make you think Athena is scummy? You mention that it's a soft tell but what exactly makes this scummy? Anyway it's your other reads that seem to bother me. Lynching someone for their attitude makes no sense (although i'm not sure if you were literal there) and although you only said it was a slight scumtell how does refa missing the point strike you as slightly scummy?

@BBM why didn't you vote weapons unless i missed something when you said he was scummy?

Most of weapons just comes off as lazy to me. Only thing that strikes me as weird is his bartozio vote. IDK why him deciding to read his role pm again makes him vote worthy.

I'll post my thoughts on other players after bed. I skimmed a lot of people's posts and the above is what stood out to me immediately. Still keeping my vote on kirsche because it seems weird to me that bbm asking via some questions means he had a read on via.

(Junko, page 10)

At this point it feels like both sides are nitpicking, and it's null.

I'm pretty sure I answered this point elsewhere.  If I really stretch it, I could argue that he's subtly pushing both BBM and Weapons, but my mind isn't made for that kind of mental contortion.

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Moving on the person I actually want to vote most right now is

##Vote: Junko

Marth's analysis of Junko's waffly wording is good and I really don't like the way he has sat on me all phase as I'm basically his only read. See his post on page 10, what's there other than me? Is eclipse scummy for those things? Is BBM scummy for those things? @Junk what are your thoughts on Bartozio? On Satsuma? On Refa? On Bibbon? Junko has committed to very little this phase despite making the posts and apparently the reading for otherwise.

(kirsche, page 12)

Disagree on Marth's analysis (waffly-wording is a scumtell in conjunction with other things), agree with kirsche's analysis that Junko's last post didn't say much about alignment.

After this back-and-forth, kirsche came out ahead.

A quick check revealed that my browser's taking up an insane amount of memory.  Next part might take a while.

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Weapons is looking for a sub.

Junko has subbed back in for RADicate but is still looking for a sub.

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yeah I basically subbed in on the limitation that my play will probably be horrible since I haven't read anything for the past 28 pages and definitely won't have time to so if someone can summraize what's going on that'd be great. The best I can do is reply to refa (which I completely forgot to do and   felt bad but at least I can tell you now). Posting this now though just in case I don't finish tn because i'm going to go to bed really soon. 

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I'm going to finish my reads post, but then I'm going to go do other things; I've been mafiaing more or less for almost 8-9 hours now.


BBM; I agreed with the JB case; I agree with the weapons case (when I was writing this; I saw new stuff and now not so sure); I thought he was the victim of BBM discrimination earlier on in the thread; I don't agree w/ the eclipse case and his defense of athena made me think that he was coaching latter out of thread, in part because I could swear some of the stuff on 42 was similar word-wise to one of his posts, particularly nitpicky/ overblown remarks; But I think his recent stuff and his casing on weapons particularly is good and his latest posts I don't really see w/ scum intent. Like Null-Town right now.


eclipse: I read her as town; I still read her as town; I think her early game was fine; BBM neglects to mention the early case on him that kicked rvs off which I see as eclipse pushing him for scummy reasons; Like even putting aside this vote change was on the IO if you put a different name on there the reasoning really doesn't change. Omitting that kinda is problematic I think.

I also don't want to lynch a mayor early, so I am NOT OK with consolidating on this today even if I was convinced otherwise.

Fable: I moved him to town after this post because that looks honestly like he's trying to solve the gamestate; I'm also more inclined to think he's townier over mack in the networker claims. I don't 100% get his thought process but talking about the quicktopic like that

Jaybee: How do I put it; I don't think he's been that townie; I think the bbm case on him is good, and I think pushing the jailkeeper claim (which is basically a doc) despite the claim is suspicious; I understand the player's play's been suboptimal but DO NOT LYNCH PROTECTIVES EARLY is a motto I could live by. Especially jailkeeper because there's a chance they could block scumkill too.

And then he jumps to the other protective claim;.

but then the nightmare case is good;

But I think the weapons case is bad; I don't think 2 where he's flaming a readspost is that bad?

I scumread the slot but not as strongly as my other stuff.


Mackc2: I was scumreading nightmare and tbh I can't shake that feeling here. There's the combination of lack of qt use, and the random defend on junko, and uh wtf was the me association with kirsche??? DO NOT LYNCH TODAY THIS IS A PROTECTIVE ROLECLAIM IDK IF IT NEEDS TO BE MADE MORE CLEAR. I should've read this memo earlier but at least I got it. I feel like play is scummy, role's null-town because of stuff I've listed earlier.


Omega Part II: I feel like he is playing to townself but I can't help but being paranoid here because of previous things and I didn't like the reaction to my criticizing your slot. See my other post. Role's unproven but this can be rectified tonight by a certain gull. I'd say null here even though I said scum earlier bc I think I was overreacting on this bit. I don't see a need to lynch this today in any case.


RADicate (replacing Junko): Like the reason I'm hesitating is paranoia; Athena's on the wagon; mack's now on the wagon; Refa's on the wagon; I was previously biased against him being scum  because it was kirsche posting + I think marth's case on him was bad  and suspicious d1; I don't think there's a convincing reason (logically) not to lynch him today from what is out in thread because the flip would be huge associations-wise.

refa II (this is more arguing than the readstuff but I think I've made myself clear on the slot: I think the jumping around is wild and not entirely what I think town does; to elaborate on my chainsaw bit, I thought that was a smear which is why I called it out;

-point about scum wanting lynches but I think my moving there last minute is another thing that draws attention.

Bolded was more why I turned from townie to worrying to scum; like I feel like it was like omega sub in makaze sub in refa flips and we're all on the scumread shinori/eclipse/snike train and I view the other two as null; and I read you as scum. So I should've like looped it in there, my bad; Lastly, maybe my reads suck but I felt super good about the other two the whole game.

-reads thing was to disprove the lol 1 other scumread 1 other townread thing but like i am interacting with the rest of the gamestate (to a lesser degree) so you accusing me of not doing that feelsBad.

-not today, in any case

-Thought. Let's put aside the current dispute: How do we know that athena didn't just network nightmare, and nightmare claimed the martyr for towncred? I don't think it's very likely but I'm scumreading both slots; One issue w/ this being that makes nightmare a target if he doesn't die in the near future.

-the coaching point I can agree with somewhat but like I still don't think Athena's post evolution is natural. Like look at satsuma; people have been remarking on the quality of his posts today and that might be because I've been advising him. I noticed a similar improvement from Athena but as far as we know he's alone; which is what makes it suspicious IMO. It's unfair but it's what I genuinely believe right now.

-I can accept that. I don't think godfather's a really good fakeclaim but I can kinda accept that you think my pushes are bad at it's core, the problem being I think your case is misleading on me.

And then I guess on the backing down and later the networker bits; I read those as trial balloons for the pending push on me. The first one in particular is why I went worried on 48.

Lastly, we should totally be networked together; it'll end up like we're the three Musketeers or Satsuma will popcorn while we're at each other's throats. More seriously OC would probably help sort this out; Anonymous Networker and Athena should be networking via or me/sats with as many people as possible because via's obvtown and so will be able to scumhunt and in my case getting networked means 3 people in oc at once. If whoever's with us is town that's even stronger than just normal network and I don't have to try and translate my discord thoughts to actual postthoughts.

The thing nagging me right now is I think this is like the third game straight where I've scumread you and you've ended up town so I'm a mess thinking-wise and this is part of what prompted the heated remarks. But like at the same time I think his conduct is really suspect.


SatsumaFSoySoy + Snike: I am thinking about changing my screenname to Reubens Almanac; y/y Solid townread here imo. Would not lynch. More seriously, I am glad I have a buddy who is taking in the game w/me.

Shinori I can understand his frustration w/ omega; this is kinda how I was feeling before I went ragey earlier. I don't think he is scum; like I don't agree with the cases on him and his reads being mediocre and his pushes but I'm in the minority. Like, again, this is a meta reason, but I have been reading his stuff like he was playing back in the game immediately prior to this; He smashed scumteam in that. So maybe it's recency bias but town is what I'm reading.

SullyMcGully: I mentioned the shade but then you went and clarified. I'm inclined to believe town based off of the immediately NA claim against kirsche and it looks like he's been reading; I think that clarification about scum!You reads more townie even if it's WIFOM.

Via: Townread; both because of hunting the rolenames/being open with his role when he knew that it would draw attention and because I think he's just town by tone. I was hesitant a little early bc of the paragraphs of content but I really feel like he isn't scum in any sense. I would peg via the universal townread of the game so far.

Walrein: I thought his posts were town; then he flaked and I can't say I wasn't concerned a little; but then he came back and I felt good about him again; waiting for him to post more however. Townread rn.

Weapons: So here's the thing; I agree that he hasn't been pushing hard; I agree that he feels really odd this game; but I feel like the stuff he did just before subbing out (the readspost + the kinda ate thing) were more townie than not; but like the readspost outside of picking on shinori I thought was ok and JB another scumread of mine had what I thought is a bad case on him.

Like I still don't know how exactly to read his style shift but I think it was most townie? But then Weapons usually isn't this emotional and I feel like I remember a scumWeapons along those lines?

I don't know, man, so it would have to be null right now.


Makaze I wanted to vig this slot for the d1 antics; I think other people like BBM have more or less explained some more of why it's suspicious; I don't know makaze meta but I feel like his stuff has been OK so far. Like I don't think his play has been scummy but I don't agree with a good part of it, notably eclipse.


Zkirsche: BBM push early was kinda dumb but like on reread I think it went w/ the aforementioned eclipse push which makes more sense; I felt like esp. end of day it was a junko tunnel because he hadn't directly responded to my stuff. His latest post wherein he actually responded to me felt better. And that's saying a lot; usually when I sub into a game with kirsche I hard-tunnel him  but like this time I'm honestly thinking he's townie. If junko flips town I don't think it reflects that poorly on him bc his other stuff is good outside of the shinori read; I agree that he's throwing shade that way but I honestly think Shinori's town.

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*because I honestly think shinori's town; not but

@Junk I think you should claim rn; Could others agree or disagree with this? Like the thing is it's less than a day away from deadline and you're lynch target #1 collectively.

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@Refa once Snike subbed in for Poly my approach has been to not let Satsuma's posts affect my reads on the slot (barring like a major slip or something). reading players with mafia experience is a lot easier than reading players without it, so yeah I could find flaws in satsuma's posts, but it would be really hard to know how much of it is due to him being scum vs being new. there's no reason to try to make the newbtown vs newbscum distinction for satsuma when I can read snike instead. now, I think the things you point out about Snike's Athena read are valid, but that's only a part of his athena read, which is itself only one part of snike's play. i haven't really gotten the sense that he's trying to push everything athena does as scummy, and i thought his nightmare case was decent. and more than that, just... i don't know, he just seems super involved and pro-town. sorry man.

not to mention, you say that you think any half-decent scumteam would have told satsuma to claim how his role sounded fishy, and it was something to keep in mind if someone like me flipped scum. but I'm not the only person who would tell him to do that- eclipse, via, kirsche, marth, shinori, etc. would all say similar stuff.

the weapons sub out request is really frustrating. inclined just to lynch this slot so the mods don't have to find another sub. it's annoying that his defence was basically just wifom. i don't know what to do with that because weapons is definitely someone whom I could see using a wifom defence as scum.

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Nah, I'm fine with you disagreeing, it's just impossible to reevaluate for me if I don't get another perspective.  I dunno, I'll sleep on it.

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I don't think well of Athena but i'm scumreading kirsche still and now marth. My biggest problem with Marth's case is that it feels like he didn't even read my post and there's a lot of misrep. He said I was tunneling on kirsche which doesn't make any sense considering I literally stated that some things bothered me about eclipse. I also stated that I'd give my thoughts on other players later so i'm confused as to how that's tunneling. He also said that I just disagreed with how kirsche felt about BBM's actions when I explicitly stated that I'm keeping my vote on kirsche because I find it weird how he came to the conclusion that bbm had a read on via. 

(Junko, page 18, part 1)

Despite the wording, this somehow comes off as Junko's generally meek tone, and I don't know how he does it.  The first part of this quote is reads on Bart/Satsuma, along with Zeus/Fable.  Of these, Bart's is somewhat noncommittal, and Satsuma seems to be a pretty clear town read.  The sentiment of antitown actions without being antitown is something I don't agree with - if someone's actions are that bad, then they should be booted post-haste.  Otherwise, it becomes a sticking point later on.

Junko's comments on Marth are weird, because this is a matter of interpretation.  If Junko thinks that tunneling means ignoring everyone else, and Marth thinks that it means only one case, then they're both right.  My interpretation is that there's not enough posts out of Junko at this point.

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the latter at least implies that via felt that walrein did something anti town whereas the former just seems inquisitive which is why I felt it was weird that kirsche came to the conclusion that bbm had a read on via. I already stated in my og case on kirsche that I felt the scum intent came from him misrepping via's and BBM's context.

(Junko, page 18, part 2)

I didn't care for kirsche's case way back when, but he'd mentioned other things at this point.

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I'll admit i can't really respond to the waffly thing about eclipse lol. I thought her statement seemed kind of ridiculous (although her explanation clarifies it) and I didn't want to look dumb just incase it was sarcasm or a joke since i'm horrible at detecting sarcasm. IDK how the first and last statements you quoted are waffly though. The former simply states that i have a difference in opinion in regards to the second part of kirsche's case on bbm but the above point (the misrep i pointed out) still stands. The last statement is just asking why BBM didn't vote weapons. This bothers me a bit because it feels like he's trying to just add evidence that doesn't really fit. Also seems weird how he tries to say how I should have had better people to vote when I don't see who else I could have voted? 

Although one important thing is that marth's start feeling weird ("unfinished" as someone put it) makes sense because he said he had to work or something. I really don't see what's bad about that. His progression makes sense to me. He hinted that he felt off about my posts and later expanded on it when he had time. 

Kirsche's case seems to mainly rely on the fact that i've "sat" on him all game and didn't give thoughts on other players when I literally said i'd give thoughts on other players when I had more time and he sheeps marth's logic about my waffling which I already explained above why I don't feel good about that.

(Junko, page 18, part 3)

Don't like the helplessness at the end of the first paragraph.  It's up to you to figure out who to vote.  Could've explained himself better earlier, though.

Junko said that he'd get to everyone later, and that his last post was a skim, so that part is true, at least.

The biggest problem I'd normally have in response to this would be tone - or the fact that it somehow stays the same despite all the different jumps in suspicion.  However, it's not a scum tone that I'm reading, so instead of poking, I just made note of it.  I'm more impressed than anything.

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Junko comes in and doesn't bother to read my version of events regarding the interpretation of BBM's via comment made at the start of the phase. I'm his biggest scumread for a vote on BBM made at the start of D1 and he clearly has no interest in updating it. All my posts since then have been fine apparently but I'm not convinced he's read them.

(kirsche, page 22, part 1)

This doesn't align with what Junko said at the end of his page 18 post, which I'm assuming is the reason why Junko continues to suspect kirsche.

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You can't just say this and get away with it forever. You're not the only one guilty of it but that doesn't clear you. Your comments about eclipse/ weapons and BBM felt like padded stuff added to make the post look more like it wasn't just sitting on me.

His Athena suspicion is also based around his play at the start of the phase too. Out of his 4 scum reads, two are based around ED1 play, 1 is an OMGUS and 1 is Bartozio who I don't recall posting in like 10 pages. It is not a good reads post. he's been coasting on tehse reads all phase.

(kirsche, page 22, part 2)

Yet despite posting reads on other people at this point, kirsche focuses on something Junko posted earlier.  There's a certain irony to this.

It also feels like kirsche is dismissing Junko's reads by summarizing that they're bad, instead of explaining it.  It's something I don't like, because it's easier to hid bad logic by slapping a label on it (and a preemptive "I hate Serious Discussion" here).  For example, Junko scumreads Marth because of the latter's case. and how he feels it's a misrep.

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Junko usually being flaky and making a large post does not excuse the mediocre content of said posts and I woudl really like it addressed a bit more. It's very frustrating because the people most likely to be lynched are people who I haven't really cared about and while the cases on them are fine I'm just not convinced.

Honestly, I expect more effort besides writing off the post as "mediocre".  IMO the most mediocre part was the Zeus/Fable read, but that's because I don't like having dead weight in the game (that's Zeus, not Fable).

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Then again, I'm doing a food test, and I think my lunch failed.

(me, page 18)

Spoiler alert: My lunch failed.  Ever get a migraine because your stomach was that sore?

Figured this would be a peek into my life as of now.

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I STILL feel the worst about kirsche tho. Again I feel he's misrepresenting me. Implies that i've kept on saying i'll update with reads later ("can't keep getting away") when i've said that once. States that I never read his interpretation and unless I missed something I already explained how it doesn't make sense to come to the conclusion that BBM had a read on via based on what BBM said. Furthermore it's extremely frustrating that he says i'm "coasting" on my reads when i've barely been active. I'd say up to this point i've made maybe 3 significant posts: kirsche vote, kirsche and eclipse stuff, and finally my marth/athena reads so I feel like he's been trying to paint me as more active who's done nothing. Also he states that I never updated my read beyond his BBM vote when I literally stated that I was keeping my vote on him was because I was also bothered how he sheeped Marth's logic about my waffling where 2 of the 3 quotes had nothing to do with waffling. He also just handwaves one of my reads as OMGUS without actually looking at the logic behind it. (assuming he's referring to my read on marth)? Also his reasoning for voting bartozio over athena doesn't seem very good. He doesn't want to lynch co networker because ??? and a comment about his vote switch looking like flailing scum which i'm not sure how. How does scum benefit from switching to a person with far less votes on them? While he had stated before that he was stuck between the two it bothers me how he asks snike  for why athena was scummy, ignores snike's response and votes bart because of really vague reasons. 

(Junko, page 37, part 1)

Oh, it's a tone change to slightly frustrated.  A quick scroll up to the other stuff I covered earlier means that this checks out--

Wait, did kirsche really do that WRT to Bart/Athena?

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Bart's Athena vote makes me much more unhappy with him, it's a graspy vote made on a big counterwagon (lots of pressure building against Athena the past 24 hours). Criticising someone for their play doesn't mean you find them scummy. Zeus' actions were very anti-town but that doesn't mean I'm scumreading him. His Bibbon stuff is thrown on there, we're talking about one or two lines from Bibbon and while I disagree with Bibbon on Zeus being manipulative I think the comment is made more out of frustration (as is Fable's case on Zeus) than logical thinking and that isn't scummy. I'd almost argue it's townie tbh, scum are much more likely to enjoy Zeus' posts and kinda do what eclipse has done. Don't vig Zeus please guys.

I'm only around for the next 90 minutes. Can Junko wagon happen? @eclipse @BBM @Zeus @Bartozio @anyone else not voting Junko.

I'd probably vote Bart over Athena right now but I keep flip flopping on Athena, Athena should claim and state their reads. Would like a more general reads spectrum from Bart too.

Marth's roleclaim is throwing me through a loop because it's an awful role, almost no town benefit, but it kinda sucks as a scumclaim? He could be hiding something but it's very provable as a role as well.

(kirsche, page 25)

That doesn't look vague to me.  It also looks like whatever Snike posted wasn't as strong as this, hence the Bart vote.

And that's the first big thing against Junko.  I don't like how kirsche is handling Junko's case, but he's pretty clear over here.

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Kirsche gives me the worst vibes because i feel like his whole case is a gigantic misrep and considering that seems to be his biggest read that's a red flag to me and also his end of the day play is super vague and it's really bad how he just ignored snike's response. Refa and athena both have a lot of inconsistencies in their logic which bug me alot. Marth is basically the same as before. He hasn't been very active.

(Junko, page 37, part 2)

Now, the second thing is how his reads list is more-or-less the same, except with Refa a bit higher than Bart was.  I'm having a hell of a time reading this game, but that's because juggling this many interactions is a recipe for a headache.  I'm sorting them, but it'll going to spill into the next day phase.

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It doesn't matter how many times you post or say these things, it's all about the time spent sitting on them. It shouldn't take you all phase to come up with 4 reads where 3 of them are based on ED1 content and the fourth is someone voting you. Making three posts doesn't excuse the posts being bad in quality and your reads staying the same in them. Those three posts were made over the course of the day so if there's no change or boost in opinions it's a big tell.

##Vote: Junko

I don't care if you explained it doesn't make sense I explained why it made sense so address that please instead of substituting your own reality and version of events. Bolded shows complete lack of an attempt to think things through from my perspective.

(kirsche, page 39)

The final post of this chain, because Junko requested a sub.

The last bit was what I took issue to.  I really don't like the fact that he's trying to dismiss Junko's case by phrasing it this way.  Junko's done a better job of explaining himself than kirsche has.

---

After this entire debacle, I'm at a loss.  On one hand, Junko's worst things are non-evolving reads and that one large misrep of kirsche.  On the other hand, kirsche's defense is poorly explained.  What's jarring is that I don't have a problem with the rest of kirsche's content.

Worst case scenario for Junko is that he's forcing his content, which would explain his relatively unchanging reads.  But I'm also forcing a lot of my content, because I'd rather be sleeping than making my last few posts of the phase.

Worst case scenario for kirsche is that he's forcing a Junko mislynch.  But then there's stuff like this:

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Omega I think I was one of the first to scumread nightmare after that listpost and it might've been me you were thinking of before you scumread Shinori for it. It was just a bad post at the time that wasn't paid much attention to made worse by the fact that he ended up voting me. At the time I was facing a fair amount of criticism so it felt a bit like he was piggybacking off of that.

I don't think Shinori's big response to Refa really changes much it's mostly self-defence. Is there anything of Refa's not about yourself that you agree/disagree with? Why? I think my vote is better spent here for now though:

##Unvote
##Vote: Mackc2

@Mackc2 Thoughts on Junko? Is there a reason you're not engaging with Fable?

@Snike I just feel like it's nitpicky I'm afraid. Why is Athena being coached now but not before when his content was bad? Can you give a general thoughts post on other people with reasoning?

@BBM I expected more from you because it's a 22p game so PoEing someone down D2 is kinda ridiculous. But then you come in with a bunch of well thought out cases on eclipse and wepaons which is definitely more of what I expected.

Still glossing over JB's content but he voted Mack for not commenting on Junko when he has openly admitted to not really reading me vs Junko. While I appreciate the Mackc vote @Jaybee Can you read Refa's case (page 51), my post here D1 and my post here coming into D2. The Junko posts these were scrutinising were one and two.

I need to go back and re-evaluate what made me townread weapons and eclipse D1 because agreeable cases against them are building fast and furiously but I recall thinking eclipse was surefire to be town D1 and weapons to be likely town. A problem I have with eclipse is that her quote walls are huge and that is a big turn off for me.

(kirsche, page 53)

where my issue is a disagreement on conclusion, not logic.  In this case, I wouldn't lynch Mackc2 on role alone.

If I absolutely had to vote this very minute, it would probably be towards Junko, because I'm null on him, and null-leaning-town on kirsche.  Agree with @Snike regarding Junko's claim, so people can talk about it.

Meanwhile. . .

##Unvote

I want to case Omega on his own merits, even if reading subs is not fun.

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