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We Need Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 5 After All! - GAME OVER

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6 minutes ago, Omega. said:

Why specifically the first 4? Also, how do these reads generally stand now?

Junk is red and Makaze and BBM are yellow otherwise it's all still the same.  Oh also shinori is green now that being said I probably have couple wrong V reads so gonna flip the wolves in the reds/yellows and try to figure out who by association. 

 

As for the other question this obviously isn't a hard rule or anything but generally in this format I think villagers are more likely the ones to be scrambling at EoD and moving thier votes a lot trying to consolidate on a lynch and wolves are more likely to sit on thier votes unless there is a wolf wagon.  Which btw is another reason I'm not sold on Wolf!Athena, really didn't feel like we had a major wolf wagon EoD1. 

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@athena_57 This is all for you;

First off, unrelated, but jailkeeper != jailor; jailkeeper is a doctor/roleblocker and @Zkirsche's favorite role. You should be able to network refa or whoever tonight as long as you're not the one being targeted.

I think you're capable of good posts but I don't see the evolution happening that fast; like I thought it was almost too good to be true; I'm not implying that you didn't write the post as much as you were given suggestions; and this part is my paranoia because like the post was written well; so my reaction was like is someone telling you what to say bc that almost exactly lines up with stuff that would ease my concerns which wasn't happening earlier or at the end of day yesterday and like if that were the case that would mean someone who I've played with and who knows my meta was in your ear and telling you what to say; It's unfair but that's what I was thinking at the time.

Like I am scumreading junko but the wagon was ??? Because at time of writing it was three scumreads and a null. You can see why I wasn't that convinced; And like, just blindly going after kirsche if Junko flips town isn't productive imo because I think kirsche is townie; so if it is v on v it would be in this scenario.  But you're logically right about it probably being scum/town at this point.

Like, auto lynching kirsche after this flip when some of his other stuff has been good strikes me as braindead and sketchy. This isn't a concrete 1v1.

I'd like to be confident but I'm as confident (before paranoia) as I was of bart being scum yesterday, and look how that turned out.

JB stuff: You're talking about the bits about his conceding parts of his criticism; like accepting that activity is his best defense? Yeah I can agree with that that the defense was shoddy. Yeah I'm inactive is ??? for a defense and the point is he was still pushing on bibbons; Like I understand throwing flak there but trying to lynch/voting there is bad + then hedging a little is suspect, especially against a doc claim.

We're not lynching you today in any case so

##Unvote

##Vote:Junk

This puts him at deadline. I have to reevaluate my other stuff but I'm not ready to just throw my scumreads out atm. Would consolidate on JB as well but like right now this is the clear lead choice.

@Junk claimtome

I'm going to bed after an aram will address other stuff when I wake up.

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14 hours ago, athena_57 said:

This isn't a hard rule but when a townie is mislynched, I'm going to assume scum had a hand in it, albeit small. This doesn't necessarily mean it's a "scumpowered" wagon, but it feels to me like at least 1 scummember would either jump on the opportunity or is the source of this wagon. None of the other people on the early wagon (so votes before 1 hour till phase end) really bothered me, so PoE led me to JB. In fact, it's the biggest reason I'm still leaning scum on him.

Do you agree with this reasoning or do you think all 4 "non-consolidation" votes are confused townies?

And if you do agree, who else besides JB makes sense as scum FYPOV?

I think it depends. Essentially, the question in my eyes isn't so much limited to who was on the wagon, but rather the wagon progression and when it actually became viable as a lynch. From what I gathered, both Fenrir and JB voted Bart pretty early on and then took different actions based on their deadline perceptions. Fenrir went actively against the wagon for consolidation purposes whereas JB doubled down on his earlier vote. But what actually made Bart a viable wagon were votes by Weapons and BBM, who brought it to 3 each and in case of the latter prompted switches from Kirsche and Refa (although Refa had already switched once earlier, curious if the Weapons vote had something to do with that?; as well as yourself, but not-me-over-me is null). I also find it noteworthy that Kirsche switched even though both the Bart and the Junko wagon had 3 votes before his change, which makes it seem as if BBM's vote held the most weight here overall and at best JB is about the same as Weapons in my eyes. For the record, I don't find Kirsche's switch suspicious in this context though because outside of votes, there seemed more vocal support for the Bart lynch, so despite the vote count his impression that his preferred lynch was unlikely strikes me as reasonable.

That said, I didn't get the impression that BBM was scum from the cases he made since my last post.

14 hours ago, Zkirsche said:

W.r.t. Shinori's post, that was a post that he made after I prompted him to make it so it wasn't really a random post. I didn't like his reads list and the fact that he didn't comment on Junko at all as I've been trying to think about who Junko's scumbuddies are likely to be and stuff like that is what you have to look out for. Apparently the lack of Junko pressure is just gut which is obviously dubious.

The expansive reads are a little on the basic side for my liking, stuff like people voting Bibbon (which is really just bad play rather than scummy play), Athena sheeping (sheeping isn't scummy guys), and I definitely feel like there should be more than "gut" determining your Junko read as well given everything. Has anything changed here with Refa's mega post @Shinori? I felt like he did a good job putting everything together in a bitesize piece. Would like to know what @Kaoz thinks too.

 

I hope you're not expecting me to address everything Refa wrote because that's not going to happen. I'll grant you opinions on Junko and Shinori though.

Junko: To be frank, I'm not really getting anything from his posts. I guess what I find the most interesting is that he keeps holding on to the suspicion on you when he seems perfectly willing to change his mind on other stuff like how he went from not getting eclipse's reasoning to leaning town on her upon hearing an explanation. Coupled with the frustration eclipse (in my eyes correctly) pointed out in her assessment of your exchanges, it reads to me as if there's something going on in his mind beyond purely game content. That would also make sense in the context of his dismissal of your pg 18 post on pg 19. If he feels that strongly about you as scum, it would make much more sense to actually get into why your post doesn't do anything for him to get people on his side rather than hand waving it. In the same vein it's weird to me how he insists on the read when he had other options to switch to. That said, since we're close to deadline and he's easily the leading wagon right now, I'm still willing to lynch him without much of a second thought.

Shinori: I think his ED1 stuff was fine. Even if you don't agree with the way he went about it, it reads to me as if he tried to push stuff he took issue with, even if it was more minor, to get more content out of the people he attacked and form better reads. For early in the game that's a legitimate strategy in my eyes. The post responding to Satsuma also makes sense to me. Satsuma gave reasons for the other reads, but when it came to Shinori it was just a "yeah, town" kinda deal, so being inquisitive about that is fine. There are some interesting points regarding the reads list though. I'm curious how much you and Refa took into account that those reads are apparently (?) better supported in previous posts. Or is the issue that he only talked about you and Athena before and the scum leans seemed to come out of nowhere? In that case, would it make sense to push those leans over the two hard scum reads he had? Finally, the fact that he left out Junko in the explanations might be telling, but only if Junko flips scum, so it's something to remember for later and not worth pushing right now.

7 hours ago, SullyMcGully said:

I'm also done thinking about Bibbon/Kaoz, like Makaze and Refa said is she was an actual jailer then it'll become apparent when her sub gets killed tonight. I don't want to lynch a potential jailer, but her claim still makes no sense. I think it was Fable who said it was a normal thing for her? Anyway, I'll leave it be.

Just quoting this post to address the general trend. Overall this line of reasoning is nonsensical. If the general consensus was to lynch a slot if it doesn't die within a given time frame, the mafia certainly benefits from not killing it off and get an easy mislynch out of it. It's not like there are no other dangerous roles or players either, so at best this is meaningless and at worst you'll end up running in circles in your own head.

I'm leaving it at this for today since I already spent about twice the amount of time in this thread I had originally intended. Like I said above, I'm fine with lynching Junko today, almost regardless of his claim. If you guys pull some giant shift as a result of it, you better be very confident about the new target and not do it as a panic reaction. If not Junko, my second candidate for today would probably be Weapons/Anime. As mentioned in the first paragraph, I find his position on the wagon yesterday interesting, remember thinking BBM's case on him was solid and Bibbon left me with him at the top of her lynch priority.

##Vote: Junko

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On 4/11/2018 at 6:17 AM, eclipse said:

As for your brother, his fate is in his own hands.  In mafia, it's sink or swim, and the last thing I want is laziness in the later stages of the game.

Rather than respond to Wonky Post, I quoted this.  It's a little odd that you're talking about Junko being wishy-washy, then do the exact same thing with your Weapons read.

For now:

##Unvote
##Vote: zeus_112

So, votes on you makes you do things.  Have two, and start talking.

Will wait for Weapons to make a coherent post after he wakes up.  Will also wait a bit for Marth to finish up his reads and whatnot.  These are two null reads that should be non-null by the time I come back.

Everyone that I didn't mention either needs to post more, or is at least a null leaning town.

eclipse votes zeus page 10

On 4/11/2018 at 3:10 PM, zeus_112 said:

okay, it may be a bit hypocrtitical, but: ##Vote: Fable

I'm not sure abaut satsuma and bartiozo being town, but they made up for it in their last posts

zeus votes Fable page 11

The below shows athena questioning zeus on page 13. The groundwork for the zeus push has been laid with eclipse/athena voting there and more people becoming attentive to his lackluster posting

On 4/11/2018 at 3:14 PM, athena_57 said:

Also @zeus_112, how do you respond to the criticism on your play? Not the inactive part, but the rest.

the above is page 13 where the pressure on zeus escalates. I'll summarize in the following with posts directly related to the gamestate here but recommend you open up the page yourself and scroll through it to get a better understanding of what's happening.

We see Bibbon question zeus in a post here: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188094

Fables come in and contradicts zeus' reasoning for voting him here: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188104

athena continues questioning here: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188108

 

Bibbon follows up with, I believe, a couple of decent points here: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188110

and here: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188118

here as well: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188135

Done quoting. Over the course of page 14 we see Bibbon, athena, and eclipse push zeus in different ways. Bibbon's pretty straightforward and consistently gives reasoning as to why she believes zeus is wolfy. athena tries to get him more involved with the game by suggesting he make a case and explain himself better. eclipse says he should be vigged and tells him to step it up.

The above is page 15 where this continues. The zeus beatdown continues here where Bibbon/athena/eclipse tagteaming at different points and gets zeus to name Fable as a suspect. Fable comes in and shows skepticism towards zeus sussing him.

The above page 16 where zeus says "sorry guys but I gotta go" and Fable votes him which I REALLY like because the timing was quite convenient.

Basically, Bibbon, eclipse, athena, and Fable all went at zeus from pages 10 or so and it dominates the thread from page 13-15, with the pressure ending near the top of page 16. I was REALLY surprised to see the whole dynamic of the game turn into a rebellion against zeus. I would also be surprised if all the players involved in this were villa. The thread really heated up in a way I found interesting. I think zeus looks bad for this, and the way Makaze came in with some weird villa reads is pretty much how I would approach the game if I subbed into a wolf slot. I also don't really like how he voted me and pressed me; he came to the right conclusion eventually but meh, I'm inclined to think a wolf was voting Marth/myself at some point today and wouldn't be surprised if it was him. Would be curious to see what other people thought of this whole thing; it's one of the more telling/interesting moments in the game.

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1 minute ago, Omega. said:

Basically, Bibbon, eclipse, athena, and Fable all went at zeus from pages 10 or so and it dominates the thread from page 13-15, with the pressure ending near the top of page 16. I was REALLY surprised to see the whole dynamic of the game turn into a rebellion against zeus. I would also be surprised if all the players involved in this were villa. The thread really heated up in a way I found interesting. I think zeus looks bad for this, and the way Makaze came in with some weird villa reads is pretty much how I would approach the game if I subbed into a wolf slot. I also don't really like how he voted me and pressed me; he came to the right conclusion eventually but meh, I'm inclined to think a wolf was voting Marth/myself at some point today and wouldn't be surprised if it was him. Would be curious to see what other people thought of this whole thing; it's one of the more telling/interesting moments in the game.

The above meant to be posted outside of spoiler tags.

This is probably the worst forum software I've ever seen in my life.

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4 minutes ago, Omega. said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

eclipse votes zeus page 10

zeus votes Fable page 11

The below shows athena questioning zeus on page 13. The groundwork for the zeus push has been laid with eclipse/athena voting there and more people becoming attentive to his lackluster posting

the above is page 13 where the pressure on zeus escalates. I'll summarize in the following with posts directly related to the gamestate here but recommend you open up the page yourself and scroll through it to get a better understanding of what's happening.

We see Bibbon question zeus in a post here: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188094

Fables come in and contradicts zeus' reasoning for voting him here: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188104

athena continues questioning here: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188108

 

Bibbon follows up with, I believe, a couple of decent points here: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188110

and here: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188118

here as well: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188135

Done quoting. Over the course of page 14 we see Bibbon, athena, and eclipse push zeus in different ways. Bibbon's pretty straightforward and consistently gives reasoning as to why she believes zeus is wolfy. athena tries to get him more involved with the game by suggesting he make a case and explain himself better. eclipse says he should be vigged and tells him to step it up.

The above is page 15 where this continues. The zeus beatdown continues here where Bibbon/athena/eclipse tagteaming at different points and gets zeus to name Fable as a suspect. Fable comes in and shows skepticism towards zeus sussing him.

The above page 16 where zeus says "sorry guys but I gotta go" and Fable votes him which I REALLY like because the timing was quite convenient.

Basically, Bibbon, eclipse, athena, and Fable all went at zeus from pages 10 or so and it dominates the thread from page 13-15, with the pressure ending near the top of page 16. I was REALLY surprised to see the whole dynamic of the game turn into a rebellion against zeus. I would also be surprised if all the players involved in this were villa. The thread really heated up in a way I found interesting. I think zeus looks bad for this, and the way Makaze came in with some weird villa reads is pretty much how I would approach the game if I subbed into a wolf slot. I also don't really like how he voted me and pressed me; he came to the right conclusion eventually but meh, I'm inclined to think a wolf was voting Marth/myself at some point today and wouldn't be surprised if it was him. Would be curious to see what other people thought of this whole thing; it's one of the more telling/interesting moments in the game.

 

PLEASE read this post or at least skim over pages 13-15 with cursory glances at page 10-12. It won't take anyone more than 10 minutes. I'm saying this because A) I think when people make quotes/spoilers/whatever it's easy to just gloss over it but that point in the game is worth a look and B) I'm trying to bring some interesting moments from earlier in the game to the forefront since it's easily forgotten with such a large game.

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Hey ya'll. I'm kinda rushed right now, and I'm basing this all off of a very minimal reread, but here are some points:

-When Eclipse first got on, I thought she wasn't doing very well defending herself and I thought it might be scummy but then she started the whole in-depth thing and I think I'm OK with that slot for now.

-OK, so on the whole Kirsche/Junko deal: I'm... kinda cool with Omega's big plan here, EXCEPT I really think we oughtta lynch Kirsche instead of Junko. First off, if I had been subbed out of a scum slot I don't think I would offer to sub back in for any amount of time! Second, the logic on the Junko case is based off of a bunch of posts and reads that neither RAD nor Junko has had time to defend against. In the meantime, Kirsche has made multiple defense posts which have failed to get rid of the suspicion on him. He's had time to defend himself. We should all feel better about this, but it seems like very few people do and the fact that so many people would rather lynch MIA Junko than has-time-to-post-but-still-feels-scummy Kirsche bothers me. 

-Mack also bothers me. The way he's posting is kinda weird compared to his Kemono Friends and P5 play. In those games, he made much larger and more frequent posts, addressed many more issues, and while he was at times scummy-seeming and some of his better moves can be attributed to a certain secret player who shall remain unnamed, I still feel like he could be doing better. So he's unmotivated? IMO scum are more likely to be unmotivated. If I were scum, I would certainly feel less motivated. And I know Mack pretty well, I don't think there's anything going on for him right now that gives him a great excuse to be as low-content as he is here.

I would vote Mack right now, but I don't think it's a good lynch and I might not make it back before deadline. So instead

##Vote: Kirsche

I'm assuming we're gonna settle on either Junko or Kirsche. I'd prefer to lynch Kirsche. I'm pretty sure ya'll can lynch Junko without my help anyway.

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9 hours ago, Refa said:

Would Announcer count as an Active Ability?  @SullyMcGully Please confirm/deny.  If it doesn't, Sully can just use his action on Weapons and clear/incriminate him.  I'm tempted to say he could do the same for Eclipse but I don't know if Scum!Mayor would necessarily have a second component to it.  Mackc2 can Martyr Sully so that scum doesn't fuck w/his actions.

I have no idea, @Iris @SB. ???

8 hours ago, Snike said:

I feel like mack should be on kaoz tonight; otherwise kaoz is dead

I'm doing the rest of the reads; almost done but i'm getting a little tired. I don't think I'll be doing the weapons reread tonight.

I don't think a martyr would be very well used on my role, it kinda sucks. I agree with Snike here.

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@Omega. Good summary, except you say: "The groundwork for the zeus push has been laid with eclipse/athena voting there and more people becoming attentive to his lackluster posting ", when I didn't vote him there. My vote was placed (and removed) in RVS and ED1 respectively, way before this happened.

Also I stand by my null-read on the slot and don't think Makaze's opening was that bad? Could you point me towards some specific posts that bother you, cause I'm not seeing it.

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1 hour ago, Omega. said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

eclipse votes zeus page 10

zeus votes Fable page 11

The below shows athena questioning zeus on page 13. The groundwork for the zeus push has been laid with eclipse/athena voting there and more people becoming attentive to his lackluster posting

the above is page 13 where the pressure on zeus escalates. I'll summarize in the following with posts directly related to the gamestate here but recommend you open up the page yourself and scroll through it to get a better understanding of what's happening.

We see Bibbon question zeus in a post here: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188094

Fables come in and contradicts zeus' reasoning for voting him here: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188104

athena continues questioning here: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188108

 

Bibbon follows up with, I believe, a couple of decent points here: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188110

and here: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188118

here as well: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-2/&do=findComment&comment=5188135

Done quoting. Over the course of page 14 we see Bibbon, athena, and eclipse push zeus in different ways. Bibbon's pretty straightforward and consistently gives reasoning as to why she believes zeus is wolfy. athena tries to get him more involved with the game by suggesting he make a case and explain himself better. eclipse says he should be vigged and tells him to step it up.

The above is page 15 where this continues. The zeus beatdown continues here where Bibbon/athena/eclipse tagteaming at different points and gets zeus to name Fable as a suspect. Fable comes in and shows skepticism towards zeus sussing him.

The above page 16 where zeus says "sorry guys but I gotta go" and Fable votes him which I REALLY like because the timing was quite convenient.

Basically, Bibbon, eclipse, athena, and Fable all went at zeus from pages 10 or so and it dominates the thread from page 13-15, with the pressure ending near the top of page 16. I was REALLY surprised to see the whole dynamic of the game turn into a rebellion against zeus. I would also be surprised if all the players involved in this were villa. The thread really heated up in a way I found interesting. I think zeus looks bad for this, and the way Makaze came in with some weird villa reads is pretty much how I would approach the game if I subbed into a wolf slot. I also don't really like how he voted me and pressed me; he came to the right conclusion eventually but meh, I'm inclined to think a wolf was voting Marth/myself at some point today and wouldn't be surprised if it was him. Would be curious to see what other people thought of this whole thing; it's one of the more telling/interesting moments in the game.

 

I may be a bit biased, but what I notice about these cases is that they were easy and not based on actual reads (which didn't exist). I can only speak to what I know, which is that I'm town, so zeus looks ever better for being shaded by everyone from my POV. I also felt that the only person who was actually pushing it was eclipse. I still don't buy that eclipse is trying to solve the game. It's mid d2 and she has no reads.

I'm willing to consolidate on Weapons (suspicion of ITP) or JB before Rad/Junko if eclipse is still not a thing. I still think eclipse should be a thing. I haven't gotten any genuine reads from her. I have given some pretty subjective, hard to justify reasons for town reading some people, because I have felt that they had something that sounded like a town perspective and were actually solving.

eclipse has none of that even after coming and finishing her entire contributions for this phase. I have evolved into full casing. I believe the eclipse is Mafia and we should lynch her.

Can I get some ##Votals?

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Day 2.NP for the votals
Junko (8): Omega., Refa, athena_57, Mackc2, eclipse, Snike + SatsumaFSoySoy, Kaoz
Mackc2 (2): Jaybee, Zkirsche
Weapons (2): BBM, Alette
Zkirsche (2): Junko, SullyMcGully
athena_57 (1): Shinori
eclipse (1): Makaze
Jaybee (1): Via
Omega (1): Walrein
Shinori (1): Arcanite

Not Voting: Lord Gaius, Fable

You have ~6.5 hours left in the day.  With 20 alive, it takes 7 to lynch and 14 to hammer.

Edited by Iris

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Happy that Mack made the 180 but then he scumreads the hydra because Junko townread them and Refa scumreads them for tunneling me. I don't think Snike has really tunnelled me, nor do I think that has any relation to Refa's scumread on Snike. (Which is mainly about Snike tunnelling Athena). @Mackc2 What do you think of Athena, eclipse and Omega whose slots were all targetted by Junko at one point or another. What about the other people Junko townread? Really lazy play here but I suppose it could come from either alignment. @Fable should ask him this stuff in the QT if he doesn't in thread.

Eclipse's word walls about me vs Junko feel really contrived to leave with essentially no strong opinons on either of us. Basically sheeping BBM here. To clarify some things because you seemed to have missed it but my bit about BBM is found in the spoilers here. Junko ignored this this and continued to spout that there was no way for me to interpret BBM's actions the way I did even into D2 and it was more than a little frustrating. I don't like how you ignored this too. Were you saying that Junko's actions could be explained by Apathy or your actions could be explained by Apathy? My biggest grievance with this suspicion is that I don't see why you would go through all these hoops to keep Junko null but then vote him anyway? @BBM thoughts?

@Omega. what parts of eclipse's tone do you find towny? Can you give a quote for anything in particular? I thought her interactions with Zeus were some of the worst at the time you posted(and that was the only bit of paranoia I had about the slot D1, otherwise I thought she was town). I felt like Fable had genuine frustration with the slot but eclipse was sort of going through the motions of scolding him and kind of egged on other players.

@Snike which of Shinori's opinions do you like and why? @Refa Does Snike's content this game not remind you of Antihero? There he tunnelled me really hard in what was a really nitpicky OMGUS but he was just angry town. Here he reads the same kind of anger at getting cased with while tunnelling Athena the same way he kind of tunnelled me. How do you think his behaviour here is different, if at all?

@SullyMcGully Junko had plenty of time to defend himself before, in fact part of my grievance with him this phase was his defence of his actions D1. What do you think about my content itself? The analysis I make, the arguments that I made, the questions that I ask? Everyone suspecting someone doesn't necessarily indicate that they're scum (although tbh I don't feel very suspected right now. I think the only people with suspicions on me are Shinori, BBM and now you).

@Makaze What are you thoughts on eclipse's summaries here? She does have a couple of town reads albeit not explained in great detail.

##Unvote
##Vote: Junko

Should've done this yesterday.

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3 minutes ago, Zkirsche said:

Happy that Mack made the 180 but then he scumreads the hydra because Junko townread them and Refa scumreads them for tunneling me. I don't think Snike has really tunnelled me, nor do I think that has any relation to Refa's scumread on Snike. (Which is mainly about Snike tunnelling Athena). @Mackc2 What do you think of Athena, eclipse and Omega whose slots were all targetted by Junko at one point or another. What about the other people Junko townread? Really lazy play here but I suppose it could come from either alignment. @Fable should ask him this stuff in the QT if he doesn't in thread.

Eclipse's word walls about me vs Junko feel really contrived to leave with essentially no strong opinons on either of us. Basically sheeping BBM here. To clarify some things because you seemed to have missed it but my bit about BBM is found in the spoilers here. Junko ignored this this and continued to spout that there was no way for me to interpret BBM's actions the way I did even into D2 and it was more than a little frustrating. I don't like how you ignored this too. Were you saying that Junko's actions could be explained by Apathy or your actions could be explained by Apathy? My biggest grievance with this suspicion is that I don't see why you would go through all these hoops to keep Junko null but then vote him anyway? @BBM thoughts?

@Omega. what parts of eclipse's tone do you find towny? Can you give a quote for anything in particular? I thought her interactions with Zeus were some of the worst at the time you posted(and that was the only bit of paranoia I had about the slot D1, otherwise I thought she was town). I felt like Fable had genuine frustration with the slot but eclipse was sort of going through the motions of scolding him and kind of egged on other players.

@Snike which of Shinori's opinions do you like and why? @Refa Does Snike's content this game not remind you of Antihero? There he tunnelled me really hard in what was a really nitpicky OMGUS but he was just angry town. Here he reads the same kind of anger at getting cased with while tunnelling Athena the same way he kind of tunnelled me. How do you think his behaviour here is different, if at all?

@SullyMcGully Junko had plenty of time to defend himself before, in fact part of my grievance with him this phase was his defence of his actions D1. What do you think about my content itself? The analysis I make, the arguments that I made, the questions that I ask? Everyone suspecting someone doesn't necessarily indicate that they're scum (although tbh I don't feel very suspected right now. I think the only people with suspicions on me are Shinori, BBM and now you).

@Makaze What are you thoughts on eclipse's summaries here? She does have a couple of town reads albeit not explained in great detail.

##Unvote
##Vote: Junko

Should've done this yesterday.

Now that you mention it, she did mention some town reads...

I just think all of her town reads besides Weapons -- a pretty consensus bad slot; this is one of the things making me doubt my Weapons can't be mafia if eclipse is -- are specifically worded to be "I'm not scumreading them" instead of "I don't think they can be mafia".

I think she setting herself up to scumread or town read anyone at a moment's notice, basically.

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Are you saying you're going to case her? That'd be interesting.

zeus I wasn't crazy about, but I did have some thoughts that it may not be as easy as just being him with all the pushback towards him. That's a slot that, if villa, is ripe for the picking.

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5 minutes ago, Omega. said:

Are you saying you're going to case her? That'd be interesting.

zeus I wasn't crazy about, but I did have some thoughts that it may not be as easy as just being him with all the pushback towards him. That's a slot that, if villa, is ripe for the picking.

I genuinely feel I already have. The fact is, I've read all of her posts, and literally not one has struck me as having strong town intent. Her cases have not had even one comment about what she thinks has scum intent. At this point I can cite her entire ISO and just by the lack of actual hunting I can believe that she is Mafia, unlike people like Via who have no content but feel genuine all the same.

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TL;DR -- I can case her, but it's just going to me quoting almost every post and going "She could have done this here, but she didn't, and also, I read this as forced and non-genuine." If you think that kind of case would sway you, I'll do it, but I have to go to work in about an hour.

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Instead I urge everyone to read her ISO. If you find a reason to disagree with me, alright, but if you don't find anything that makes you think she is town, please ask yourself why, when she has more than enough experience to have made progress after two whole Days in the game.

Pedit: Cool.

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Wow there are a lot of votes on Junko, more than I thought.

Quote

I'm curious how much you and Refa took into account that those reads are apparently (?) better supported in previous posts.

Forgot this in the post above but I never really knew why Shinori was scumreading me (I thought it was solely on the fact that I commented on his post count) so that was where my problems with it started.

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I don't get why so many people are voting Junk when it takes 7 to lynch at deadline.  Just makes it harder to switch if he claims an obvious town role...

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@Zkirsche I'll skim Antihero, I don't really feel like I have a solid meta handle on Snike because I've never played with Scum!Snike outside of an OC game.

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3 minutes ago, Refa said:

I don't get why so many people are voting Junk when it takes 7 to lynch at deadline.  Just makes it harder to switch if he claims an obvious town role...

What do you make of this Makaze push on eclipse?

I still think wolf between Junko/kirsche in all worlds.

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Just now, Omega. said:

What do you make of this Makaze push on eclipse?

I still think wolf between Junko/kirsche in all worlds.

My opinion is that eclipse/Junko if both, because that makes the most sense with her wall post result, so Junko is alright with me, I'm just overall more confident on eclipse.

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