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We Need Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 5 After All! - GAME OVER

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4 hours ago, Omega. said:

I mean, I don't find an eclipse push entirely unreasonable. She has been on bad play like a hawk, and I have very little to work with regarding her on D2. What does give me some doubt is how open she's been about punishing bad play. Like, would she be that shameless/open about it as scum? Wish I played with her more, might help me make a better call here.

Omega's quote post was broken some I'm reading backwards to find the post with Omega quotes in it and looking at Eclipse cases.  I wanted to comment on this but I feel Eclipse kind of plays like this as both alignments.  I think I'm starting to dislike her based on the fact that I'm getting some gut vibes from a previous game that was years ago though.

I want to find the post where Eclipse votes Junko; does anyone know around what page that is?

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even though I haven't said a lot about it mostly cuz I've been lazy & overwhelmed I think I'd lynch kirsche over junko too

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Rethought and discussed with Snike after Junk's claim and subsequent clarification that it's dead people only. Snike also did some thinking in our chat, and he thinks it would probably be a better idea to get an investigative role on Junk instead, and lynch Kirsche for Sully's case on him. To be honest, neither wagon is conclusively scum for either of us, but this seems to be the safer option, and would clear a bunch of confusion. Moving the vote for the two of us.

##Unvote

##Vote Zkirsche

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god I leave to focus on my work thinking I didn't need to worry about this game and I'm getting turbo'd. Refa wtf are you doing man what inconsistencies are there in my posts? I'm the other co-networker btw.

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15 minutes ago, BBM said:

that role is more commonly known as gravedigger. claim doesn't really change my opinion on junko's alignment. i've been both town and scum gravedigger.

forcing 1v1s for non-role reasons is something that I really dislike because it's basically lining up lynches. you can get two people lynched on consecutive days for the price of one case, and like 5 people are doing it, which is very frustrating because i can't even scumread anyone for it

Are you serious?

No. Kirsche absolutely dies for tunneling a villager for 2 days if Junko flips V.

 

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Quote

Okay, I've read that Sully post. I'm not sold on it, but I think he actually has reasons to suspect Kirsche.

I think that Kirsche/eclipse could also work, and it's not like I have a strong townread on Kirsche, I just think that Junko's reasons for suspecting him are bad and it could easily be OMGUS-y on both sides. In retrospect, scum also get mad when suspected for bad reasons, so this shouldn't be AI.



I think the sub out is NAI. I would totally sub back in his position as both alignments.

Scratch that I made it to lunch and this was the post I was writing before I had to leave last time.

I don't think we ever lynch Junko here with that claim, because he pretty much has to do what we say and it's confirmable.

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1 minute ago, Shinori said:

Omega's quote post was broken some I'm reading backwards to find the post with Omega quotes in it and looking at Eclipse cases.  I wanted to comment on this but I feel Eclipse kind of plays like this as both alignments.  I think I'm starting to dislike her based on the fact that I'm getting some gut vibes from a previous game that was years ago though.

I want to find the post where Eclipse votes Junko; does anyone know around what page that is?

Bottom of Page 58.

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yeah my agenda is lynching the people I find scummiest. having no agenda means you're just playing aimlessly, which probably means you don't care who gets lynched, which is scummy.

assuming that junko can only target the same dead person once (which is how I have always seen amnesiac/gravedigger implemented), this is a strictly null claim. I can literally link role PMs of me having this role as both town and scum. it's also not a role like mack's which will just get itself killed as town.

i still don't understand this 1v1 people are setting up between kirsche and junko and why people want to default to kirsche over eclipse if they don't want to lynch junko. if kirsche gets lynched and flips town, what extra info are you getting on junko? just that he was wrong. two people tunneling each other all game doesn't give you anything beyond that with regards to the others alignment if one gets lynched. the most informative interactions are when people change their opinions on things, and by definition that doesn't exist in a tunneling interaction.

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1 minute ago, Zkirsche said:

god I leave to focus on my work thinking I didn't need to worry about this game and I'm getting turbo'd. Refa wtf are you doing man what inconsistencies are there in my posts? I'm the other co-networker btw.

Who did you target and why?

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guys who are your characters!! I need this info

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fuck it shinori stuff has to wait here's what I had so far

-page 6; shinori points at athena;bbm; I can get the cases for both here even if the rein thing is stupid; reads a walrein post as tonally town
-page 7; argues with via; I think he's clarifying don't blindly discount itp's not trying to doubt townreads
-pushing athena; calls kirsche out on the bit and scumreads him over the bbm vote; they resolve former.
-Bart stuff; this is obviously wrong but at the same time I agreed with it; I can sheep it; so did a lot of the thread.
-Page 8; lightens bbm read; agrees with bibbon push
-explains AND asks questions of satsuma ; this isn't just theoretical
-forgets about walrein defensive read
-explains more of athenastuff
-page 18; sticks to his guns on athena; bart voting motivation, softens read on bart.
-reads on bibbon (agree with some points but then calls her out on weirdness surrounding zeus) and athena (morescum bc he was like a bystander) I agree with these.
-misses why fable voted zeus; I think I explain it later
-I think pressure on sats is fine; I wasn't and am not scripting him
-scumreads nightmare; Like yeah I am ok with this.
-cases nightmare; this is also in line with a JB post later on in day 2. I like this he's actually pushing cases.
-

we need a discussion about networkers, now

I think 1 is town 1 is scum;

Kirsche why did you pick fable

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Day 2.woke up from a nap is sleepy
Junko (7): athena_57, Mackc2, eclipse,  Kaoz, Zkirsche, Fable
Zkirsche (5): Junko, SullyMcGully, Omega., Refa, Snike + SatsumaFSoySoy
eclipse (4): Makaze, Lord Gaius, BBM, Jaybee
Jaybee (1): Via
Omega (1): Walrein
Shinori (1): Arcanite
Arcanite (1): Alette

Not Voting: Shinori

You have ~24 minutes left in the day.  With 20 alive, it takes 7 to lynch and 14 to hammer.

Edited by Iris

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Fable because they are a solid townread who I thought would benefit greatly from a calmer one v one situation. Felt like they were getting too frustrated at the stuff in thread.

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1 minute ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Rethought and discussed with Snike after Junk's claim and subsequent clarification that it's dead people only. Snike also did some thinking in our chat, and he thinks it would probably be a better idea to get an investigative role on Junk instead, and lynch Kirsche for Sully's case on him. To be honest, neither wagon is conclusively scum for either of us, but this seems to be the safer option, and would clear a bunch of confusion. Moving the vote for the two of us.

Do you think Junk is lying about Amnesiac?

2 minutes ago, Zkirsche said:

God Amnesiac is the classic scum fakeclaim wtf is this why is everyone buying it.

Do you think Junk is lying about Amnesiac?

3 minutes ago, Zkirsche said:

god I leave to focus on my work thinking I didn't need to worry about this game and I'm getting turbo'd. Refa wtf are you doing man what inconsistencies are there in my posts? I'm the other co-networker btw.

2 hours ago, SullyMcGully said:

OK, the Shinori voteswitch here bothers me a bit, as I already stated. I found a post of Omega's which covers this as well, he says it sounds like Kirsche is just picking out a post to find problems with. IMO it was a weak read and his defense of it later was unsatisfactory. Like, yeah, those were all problems that could be pointed out with the post, but was it really worth a voteswitch? What was scummy about it as opposed to just bad townplay? Why couldn't he just ask Shinori honest questions if all he wanted were answers?

Then Kirsche switches to Mack and he goes back and digs up old Nightmare suspicions as if he's had a serious scumread there all along. But I just read over Kirsche's D1, and Kirsche's first Nightmare read is pretty insubstantial. Most of his problems with Nightmare come from his posts dealing with Mack, not from back when Nightmare was actually a player. 

Then there's Junko. In the process of reading back over Kirsche I read the Junko posts he seemed to have the most trouble with. While I wasn't paying much attention earlier, Junko seems legitimately frustrated with Kirsche. Kirsche tunneling I can get, but I feel like he blew the actual issues with Junko's posts out of proportion. Then, when players get on his case for tunneling on Junko, Kirsche throws out two weak, short-lived cases on players he wasn't very adamant about before. Then returns to tunneling Junko. 

I'm starting to question Omega's logic that either Junko or Kirsche needs to be scum. I'm not picking that up from my own reading, but I have a poorer sense for that sort of thing. I'm not completely averse to the idea that they're both town, but Junko actually feels town to me while Kirsche is bothering me a lot more.

I forgot why I quoted this one, actually. This doesn't really bother me too much, but I'm pretty sure Kirsche was calling Zeus null in the posts I read from that time period. 

 I should address this: I was referring to D2 with my post, while Kirsche has been active D2 and, IMO, suspicious (I recall a few other players saying Kirsche was suspicious at the time I wrote that post, but I could be wrong), Junko and his ill-fated sub have not.

I get that Kirsche has been asking town-friendly questions. He's the one who brought the whole stupid neighborhood deal to people's attention, along with other things. But I remember P5 Mafia. Kirsche was one of my top townreads in the early portions of that game. He was a decent contributor and asked good questions. It was only once scum flipped and we got further with associative reads that we managed to put the pieces together. And then I got mislynched in Kirsche's place because Via was too high to save my butt. I'm worried Kirsche could pull another game like that. 

As far as other stuff goes: I feel like leaving my vote where it is. Ya'll can lynch Eclipse or Junko without me if you need to, though I really don't think Junko is scum. I see some of the logic on Eclipse. I actually didn't want her to be lynched because I figured I could use my role on her tonight (her being mayor and all), but now that I think of it, chances that she (assuming she's Mafia) would carry out the NK tonight are pretty low. 

However, if she does flip town, then my suspicion would fall on BBM. Like I said earlier, getting a player like Eclipse mislynched would be a major win for the mafia, and I would bet that one of the players highly proactive in bringing it about would be scum. 

I'd really like it if Eclipse herself would say something. JB and LG's votes in particular feel kinda sheepy, but both of those slots have promised rereads and better info D3. We'll just have to see what happens.

Kaoz's recent post where he talks about how we shouldn't lynch him if he doesn't die tonight makes sense, I guess. It would also make sense for scum trying to get the most out of their jailer claim to say that as well, though. Honestly, that statement made that slot seem scummier to me.

That's all I've got for now. I need to take a break. I won't be back before deadline most likely because our dear hosts scheduled it right over milking time. :cow:

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Spoiler

 

Manix/grace also there aren't any limitations from what I understand. Each night I can respond and take a dead persons role for that night.

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Satsuma's skeptical I think it's weird enough to be a thing

But like I don't think both networkers can be town???

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Nobody had actually made a defense of Eclipse and I think people are staying on Junko / this BS Kirsche wagon out of laziness and being afraid to change. Junkos play doesn't make sense from a scum slot but I don't see why that makes Kirsche scum, since most ppl are flipping away from Junko on tone / meta / playstyle as opposed to any form of analysis like what Kirsche was pushing him for, so the fact that one of these has to be scum is not true imo.

Nobody I've seen has reservations for eclipse beyond I'm not feeling it as much and I think junko / Kirsche are town town .

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ok my gf is in this game but where the fuck am i

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2 minutes ago, Snike said:

we need a discussion about networkers, now

I think 1 is town 1 is scum;

same

you know my perspective on athena, i know your perspective on athena, here we are

earlier you floated the idea of nightmare lying about martyring but i'm like 100% sure he wasn't

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3 minutes ago, Vi-astra said:

guys who are your characters!! I need this info

hear me out here
supposing your role is useful
how are you going to use it without reads

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He could easily be lying it was less than like 4-5 hours into phase when I left and he hadn't claimed. Even if it gets him lynched later down the line it makes sense to make a claim that noone likes lynching. Look at how successful it has been!

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