Best and worse skills in the games ?

[Aut]

30 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

As far as Niles outliving his usefulness, the answer is... As soon as his daughter Nina or Anna becomes relevant. Which can be really early, mind you. (Personally, I always get her [Anna] around chapter 10; Nina comes along later, but it's ALWAYS before clearing chapter 18) Also... Chapter 10, being what it is, is hardly an ideal time to try to capture mooks - missing against a sky knight can easily cost me the game. And I doubt I'd have further use for Niles after that chapter for reasons already mentioned...

Frankly, that would likely depend on if their speed growth cooperates. None of those units you mentioned are exactly speed demons... Also, getting Rally Speed, once again, relies on either sealing Selena or Azura (seal limit issues), marrying off Azura and using Shigure (he's hardly a fantastic unit), or relying on a captured mook (NWI).

TBH I don’t think you’re looking at this the right way. Honestly I’d say that Niles is significantly better than his daughter due to the fact that he has a valuable utility in capture. And Nina’s only real utility she has over her father (higher magic) is notably mitigated by her extremely low bulk. The difference between Anna and Niles is insignificant on Ch. 11, you can very easily swap Anna out for Niles for that one chapter, since their preformance isn’t significantly different. Also I’m almost certain that you gave no reason for Niles “outliving his usefulness” other than different units that you believe outclass him appearing. 

You have no idea what you’re talking about on the speed thing. Berserker pair up + speed tonic + rally speed = free +9 speed. It can get better depending on what unit’s the pair up bot. If a unit wasn’t getting doubled, they’re now doubling, and it gets even more significant when you take into account pairups that give more speed than base Berskerker (I used Berserker because they give the best overall pair-up bonuses). Like at this point a ton of units can cross the doubling threshold. On Shigure, I’d say that if he gets rally speed then he’s extremely useful, because that significantly increases the offense of many other units.

 Also what does NWI mean? Never heard it used before.

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Aut said:

TBH I don’t think you’re looking at this the right way. Honestly I’d say that Niles is significantly better than his daughter due to the fact that he has a valuable utility in capture. And Nina’s only real utility she has over her father (higher magic) is notably mitigated by her extremely low bulk. The difference between Anna and Niles is insignificant on Ch. 11, you can very easily swap Anna out for Niles for that one chapter, since their preformance isn’t significantly different. Also I’m almost certain that you gave no reason for Niles “outliving his usefulness” other than different units that you believe outclass him appearing. 

You have no idea what you’re talking about on the speed thing. Berserker pair up + speed tonic + rally speed = free +9 speed. It can get better depending on what unit’s the pair up bot. If a unit wasn’t getting doubled, they’re now doubling, and it gets even more significant when you take into account pairups that give more speed than base Berskerker (I used Berserker because they give the best overall pair-up bonuses). Like at this point a ton of units can cross the doubling threshold. On Shigure, I’d say that if he gets rally speed then he’s extremely useful, because that significantly increases the offense of many other units.

 Also what does NWI mean? Never heard it used before.

Which does not mean a damn when his offense lets him down - capture only means something if you can secure the kill... which I struggle to see Niles doing when his strength and magic both are not exactly setting the world on fire. Except if they either have wings or are squishy.

That's assuming I field a Berserker - quite the bold assumption when I deem it a lackluster class (also, I despise axe infantry with the fury of an angry god who's seen them suck and fail time and time again. Commit that to memory.). Also, there's characters that are far more worthy of a unit slot than Shigure, if I may be frank.

NWI = Not Worth It.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[NinjaMonkey]

Tempest, Ire and Bane for worst.

Eclipse, Tear and Luna (RD) for best.

[Jotari]

I can't think of anything more useless than Sure Hit in The Sacred Stones. I don't think there's a single enemy in the game that an average growth Sniper can't hit with a 100% chance and even if there was, it's entirely luck based meaning the 1 in a million times your Sniper might happen to miss, it probably won't proc. The only saving grace is that unlike potential worse skills in other games, it doesn't take up a skill slot or capacity.

[Aut]

19 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Which does not mean a damn when his offense lets him down - capture only means something if you can secure the kill... which I struggle to see Niles doing when his strength and magic both are not exactly setting the world on fire. Except if they either have wings or are squishy.

That's assuming I field a Berserker - quite the bold assumption when I deem it a lackluster class (also, I despise axe infantry with the fury of an angry god who's seen them suck and fail time and time again. Commit that to memory.). Also, there's characters that are far more worthy of a unit slot than Shigure, if I may be frank.

NWI = Not Worth It.

Niles’s offense isn’t exactly bad, he doubles just about everything, and there’s rarely a unit with both good defense and resistance. Usually it’s just one or the other, so if you need to you can switch his weapons around. If you weaken a unit, there’s a very good chance that he kills it, if he couldn’t do it himself (Admittedly there’s a number of enemies for which that is likely true). Also this is irrelevant when talking about the sky knights in Ch. 10, and in Ch.11, he can most definitely double them (I forget if they have the wing shield or not).

It doesn’t really matter how much you like or dislike the Berserker class, especially since as a pair-up bot they won’t even see any combat. Their pair up stats are the best offense spread in the game, that’s undeniable and both natural fighters improve it (Charlotte significantly). And besides, if a unit just needs the speed they could pair up with Kaze, Selena, or Laslow (there’s probably someone else I’m forgetting) since all of them give a good amount of speed. Then there’s Keaton who gives really good buffs as well.

Quite frankly, if Shigure doubles multiple unit’s offense, he’s got to be worth more than at least one of the units you have deployed, especially since ORKOing is particularly valuable in Conquest. 

[Shadow Mir]

On 4/13/2018 at 7:07 AM, DragonFlames said:

Poison Strike and Grisly Wound - In the case of the latter, when would Keaton, Kaden, Selkie or Velouria ever fail to do damage insignificant enough for this skill to make any tangible difference? In the case of the former, you want to kill your enemies, so why waste time chipping them down with useless crap like this? For both: Why aren't you just killing stuff instead?

My answer to the first one is if they get attacked from range.

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

I can't think of anything more useless than Sure Hit in The Sacred Stones. I don't think there's a single enemy in the game that an average growth Sniper can't hit with a 100% chance and even if there was, it's entirely luck based meaning the 1 in a million times your Sniper might happen to miss, it probably won't proc. The only saving grace is that unlike potential worse skills in other games, it doesn't take up a skill slot or capacity.

About the only thing that MIGHT possibly make a sniper miss is a spider on a mountain peak.

Anyway, reasoning:

Spoiler

Gamble (PoR/RD) - Halving the chance to hit in exchange for doubled chance to critical... when you have to hit before you can crit in the first place... what part of this sounds like a good idea???

Sure Strike - Snipers already have the highest skill cap and use accurate weapons, they don't have need for a guaranteed hit skill

Wrath (Awakening) - if I need to be at half health or less for a skill to work, make sure the skill's effects are worth being that low in the first place...

Vantage (Fates) - See above, except note the low HP amounts most units tend to have.

Life and Death - Most Hoshidan units already are lacking defensively; taking 10 extra damage when you're already frail is not worth dealing that much more.

Quixotic - Not unlike Life and Death, it helps the enemy out more than it helps you. Giving the enemy +30 to hit chance and +15 to whatever procs they might have is only a recipe for disaster. Especially since most Hoshidans, as stated earlier, are fragile.

Profiteer - A means of generating sellable items sounds good, right? Wrong! It's based on luck, and the gold bars generated sell for chump change. Also, it stops working after seven turns. All these factors combined disqualify it from being a useful skill.

Spendthrift - Requires a gold bar to work, which means wasting an item slot that could be used for better things, like another weapon or a healing item. Also, the fact that it requires gold bars causes more problems, since the only two methods of getting them are through Lilith, which is slow, or via Profiteer, which, as stated earlier, is luck-based and only works for seven turns.

Sol (Awakening/Fates) - Regainng HP sounds great on paper, except when you realize it's only half of what you deal, and in Fates, Sol falls victim to It Only Works Once.

Salvage Blow - as stated earlier, it might've been worthwhile in another FE game, but in Fates? A chance to get iron weapons amounts to a wasted skill slot when I'm using better weapons by that point.

Good Fortune - A poor man's Renewal that is based on luck, and for most, if not all of the game, heals less than a vulnerary. Sounds to me like a wasted skill slot.

Lethality - Simply put, it's too unreliable. And in the one case where it COULD be worthwhile? Whoops, everything's immune.

Charge - Can just as easily kill you as it can help you.

Zeal - 5 extra crit likely won't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

Vengeance (Fates) - Too much risk for too little reward.

Counter (Awakening) - oftentimes, you're not taking enough damage to make it worthwhile. And ideally, you do NOT want to be in situations where it is bouncing a lot of damage back. What's more, just like Lethality, the one place where it might have use is the one where everything's immune to it. Of course, all this goes out the window when the enemy gets it... it's the biggest reason why Lunatic+ is cancerous bullshit.

Parity (PoR) - often does more harm than good

Nihil (PoR) - 15 capacity to block enemy skills in a game where almost nothing has skills? What a rip-off...

Tempest - Doubled biorhythm effects can hurt when your biorhythm is low.

Howl/Quickclaw/Shriek/Maelstrom - All four require laguz to get hit by ranged attacks, which can be really unlikely, and they're not reliable enough to make up for this. Also, this is ignoring the part where laguz don't want to be attacked by ranged attacks.

Seal Resistance - The class that gets it cannot take advantage of it, and the mage selection in Birthright is so very lacking.

Focus/Tantivy - The boosts granted aren't good enough to warrant isolating yourself from all your allies.

Prescience - It only works once a turn. Need I say more?

Astra (PoR/RD) - In the former, it's a death of a thousand cuts, which isn't exactly appealing when every blow consumes a weapon use. In the latter, it does full damage, but you cannot crit. In both games, it's associated with a class that isn't exactly good offensively.

Savage Blow - AoE Poison Strike sounds good on paper, but more often than not, it's inconsequential, and in instances where it might help, you probably just put yourself in a precarious position trying to use it.

Rally Movement - Unlike most other Rally skills, which can be useful after moving your units, this one requires using it BEFORE moving them, and one extra square of movement at the cost of a unit's turn sounds like a waste.

Misfortunate - Arthur already has awful crit evade, and this just makes it worse. The crit evade lowering effect doesn't work nearly as well on enemies, because (1) they don't have much in terms of crit evade to begin with, and (2) they're disposable anyhow.

Sweet Tooth - Requires use of the "wait" command, and if you really need the healing, you might as well just use a vulnerary instead, since it heals more.

Perfect Pitch - I find it hard enough to find uses for the Rally command in Fates. Adding a negligible healing effect isn't helping.

Unmask - Added damage and crit against female enemies... in a game where 90% of the enemies are male. Try harder, IS.

 

 

Edited April 14, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jotari]

23 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

My answer to the first one is if they get attacked from range.

About the only thing that MIGHT possibly make a sniper miss is a spider on a mountain peak.

Anyway, reasoning:

  Hide contents

Gamble (PoR/RD) - Halving the chance to hit in exchange for doubled chance to critical... when you have to hit before you can crit in the first place... what part of this sounds like a good idea???

Sure Strike - Snipers already have the highest skill cap and use accurate weapons, they don't have need for a guaranteed hit skill

Wrath (Awakening) - if I need to be at half health or less for a skill to work, make sure the skill's effects are worth being that low in the first place...

Vantage (Fates) - See above, except note the low HP amounts most units tend to have.

Life and Death - Most Hoshidan units already are lacking defensively; taking 10 extra damage when you're already frail is not worth dealing that much more.

Quixotic - Not unlike Life and Death, it helps the enemy out more than it helps you. Giving the enemy +30 to hit chance and +15 to whatever procs they might have is only a recipe for disaster. Especially since most Hoshidans, as stated earlier, are fragile.

Profiteer - A means of generating sellable items sounds good, right? Wrong! It's based on luck, and the gold bars generated sell for chump change. Also, it stops working after seven turns. All these factors combined disqualify it from being a useful skill.

Spendthrift - Requires a gold bar to work, which means wasting an item slot that could be used for better things, like another weapon or a healing item. Also, the fact that it requires gold bars causes more problems, since the only two methods of getting them are through Lilith, which is slow, or via Profiteer, which, as stated earlier, is luck-based and only works for seven turns.

Sol (Awakening/Fates) - Regainng HP sounds great on paper, except when you realize it's only half of what you deal, and in Fates, Sol falls victim to It Only Works Once.

Salvage Blow - as stated earlier, it might've been worthwhile in another FE game, but in Fates? A chance to get iron weapons amounts to a wasted skill slot when I'm using better weapons by that point.

Good Fortune - A poor man's Renewal that is based on luck, and for most, if not all of the game, heals less than a vulnerary. Sounds to me like a wasted skill slot.

Lethality - Simply put, it's too unreliable. And in the one case where it COULD be worthwhile? Whoops, everything's immune.

Charge - Can just as easily kill you as it can help you.

Zeal - 5 extra crit likely won't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

Vengeance (Fates) - Too much risk for too little reward.

Counter (Awakening) - oftentimes, you're not taking enough damage to make it worthwhile. And ideally, you do NOT want to be in situations where it is bouncing a lot of damage back. What's more, just like Lethality, the one place where it might have use is the one where everything's immune to it. Of course, all this goes out the window when the enemy gets it... it's the biggest reason why Lunatic+ is cancerous bullshit.

Parity (PoR) - often does more harm than good

Nihil (PoR) - 15 capacity to block enemy skills in a game where almost nothing has skills? What a rip-off...

Tempest - Doubled biorhythm effects can hurt when your biorhythm is low.

Howl/Quickclaw/Shriek/Maelstrom - All four require laguz to get hit by ranged attacks, which can be really unlikely, and they're not reliable enough to make up for this. Also, this is ignoring the part where laguz don't want to be attacked by ranged attacks.

Seal Resistance - The class that gets it cannot take advantage of it, and the mage selection in Birthright is so very lacking.

Focus/Tantivy - The boosts granted aren't good enough to warrant isolating yourself from all your allies.

Prescience - It only works once a turn. Need I say more?

Astra (PoR/RD) - In the former, it's a death of a thousand cuts, which isn't exactly appealing when every blow consumes a weapon use. In the latter, it does full damage, but you cannot crit. In both games, it's associated with a class that isn't exactly good offensively.

Savage Blow - AoE Poison Strike sounds good on paper, but more often than not, it's inconsequential, and in instances where it might help, you probably just put yourself in a precarious position trying to use it.

Rally Movement - Unlike most other Rally skills, which can be useful after moving your units, this one requires using it BEFORE moving them, and one extra square of movement at the cost of a unit's turn sounds like a waste.

Misfortunate - Arthur already has awful crit evade, and this just makes it worse. The crit evade lowering effect doesn't work nearly as well on enemies, because (1) they don't have much in terms of crit evade to begin with, and (2) they're disposable anyhow.

Sweet Tooth - Requires use of the "wait" command, and if you really need the healing, you might as well just use a vulnerary instead, since it heals more.

Perfect Pitch - I find it hard enough to find uses for the Rally command in Fates. Adding a negligible healing effect isn't helping.

Unmask - Added damage and crit against female enemies... in a game where 90% of the enemies are male. Try harder, IS.

 

 

Vantage in Fates is actually pretty useful on Ryoma. It makes his chances of actually being killed much lower. You can literally throw him at most maps and expect him to solo.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Vantage in Fates is actually pretty useful on Ryoma. It makes his chances of actually being killed much lower. You can literally throw him at most maps and expect him to solo.

Except for the part where this is Murphy's Law: The Game. Are you really okay with playing Russian Roulette??? Needless to say, I sure as hell ain't, not when the reward is far outweighed by the risk. Also, the only map I can literally expect Ryoma to solo is one with nothing but axes and bows.

6 hours ago, Aut said:

Niles’s offense isn’t exactly bad, he doubles just about everything, and there’s rarely a unit with both good defense and resistance. Usually it’s just one or the other, so if you need to you can switch his weapons around. If you weaken a unit, there’s a very good chance that he kills it, if he couldn’t do it himself (Admittedly there’s a number of enemies for which that is likely true). Also this is irrelevant when talking about the sky knights in Ch. 10, and in Ch.11, he can most definitely double them (I forget if they have the wing shield or not).

It doesn’t really matter how much you like or dislike the Berserker class, especially since as a pair-up bot they won’t even see any combat. Their pair up stats are the best offense spread in the game, that’s undeniable and both natural fighters improve it (Charlotte significantly). And besides, if a unit just needs the speed they could pair up with Kaze, Selena, or Laslow (there’s probably someone else I’m forgetting) since all of them give a good amount of speed. Then there’s Keaton who gives really good buffs as well.

Quite frankly, if Shigure doubles multiple unit’s offense, he’s got to be worth more than at least one of the units you have deployed, especially since ORKOing is particularly valuable in Conquest. 

Doubling everything only counts for so much - just look.at Kaze. He has good speed, but his low strength means I cannot expect much from him if he is not going up against mages or other physically frail units. Niles is more of the same. And to be honest, Conquest is not the type of game where I can afford to rely on units that just barely scrape by. Such units will eventually become liabilities as they can no longer pick up the slack when I need them to - after all, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Anyway... While Niles might be able to double them, he needs 2 speed level ups (4 for the chapter 11 ones), which is honestly a lot when I deem him so damn unreliable. (There are other ways, but they either cost money [tonics] or units [pair up])

Being a good pair up bot is not enough for me to think they are worth using. It just isn't. It does not help that both of the natural fighters are TERRIBLE.

ORKOing in Conquest is only really worthwhile if I know my units will survive everything coming at them, else they risk ending up in a grave of their own making. And frankly, I would only really consider fielding Shigure if Azura married Corrin. And in case you forgot, this is the same Azura who has no fast supports with anyone other than Corrin...

Edited April 15, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jotari]

10 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Except for the part where this is Murphy's Law: The Game. Are you really okay with playing Russian Roulette??? Needless to say, I sure as hell ain't, not when the reward is far outweighed by the risk. Also, the only map I can literally expect Ryoma to solo is one with nothing but axes and bows.

Doubling everything only counts for so much - just look.at Kaze. He has good speed, but his low strength means I cannot expect much from him if he is not going up against mages or other physically frail units. Niles is more of the same. And to be honest, Conquest is not the type of game where I can afford to rely on units that just barely scrape by. Such units will eventually become liabilities as they can no longer pick up the slack when I need them to - after all, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Anyway... While Niles might be able to double them, he needs 2 speed level ups (4 for the chapter 11 ones), which is honestly a lot when I deem him so damn unreliable. (There are other ways, but they either cost money [tonics] or units [pair up])

Being a good pair up bot is not enough for me to think they are worth using. It just isn't. It does not help that both of the natural fighters are TERRIBLE.

ORKOing in Conquest is only really worthwhile if I know my units will survive everything coming at them, else they risk ending up in a grave of their own making. And frankly, I would only really consider fielding Shigure if Azura married Corrin. And in case you forgot, this is the same Azura who has no fast supports with anyone other than Corrin...

Well I'm more not okay with it because it's just not a fun way to play. But it is perfectly possible for him to do it. It might take two or three tries since it's heavily rng based, but in terms of expedience it does save more time than legitimately playing the map.

[DragonFlames]

20 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

My answer to the first one is if they get attacked from range.

Wait, I'm confused. Doesn't Grisly Wound only work when you initiate the attack?

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

Vantage in Fates is actually pretty useful on Ryoma. It makes his chances of actually being killed much lower. You can literally throw him at most maps and expect him to solo.

Obligatory "Ryoma can't solo Birthright and is criminally overrated anyway" comment.

20 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

  Hide contents

Gamble (PoR/RD) - Halving the chance to hit in exchange for doubled chance to critical... when you have to hit before you can crit in the first place... what part of this sounds like a good idea???

Sure Strike - Snipers already have the highest skill cap and use accurate weapons, they don't have need for a guaranteed hit skill

Wrath (Awakening) - if I need to be at half health or less for a skill to work, make sure the skill's effects are worth being that low in the first place...

Vantage (Fates) - See above, except note the low HP amounts most units tend to have.

Life and Death - Most Hoshidan units already are lacking defensively; taking 10 extra damage when you're already frail is not worth dealing that much more.

Quixotic - Not unlike Life and Death, it helps the enemy out more than it helps you. Giving the enemy +30 to hit chance and +15 to whatever procs they might have is only a recipe for disaster. Especially since most Hoshidans, as stated earlier, are fragile.

Profiteer - A means of generating sellable items sounds good, right? Wrong! It's based on luck, and the gold bars generated sell for chump change. Also, it stops working after seven turns. All these factors combined disqualify it from being a useful skill.

Spendthrift - Requires a gold bar to work, which means wasting an item slot that could be used for better things, like another weapon or a healing item. Also, the fact that it requires gold bars causes more problems, since the only two methods of getting them are through Lilith, which is slow, or via Profiteer, which, as stated earlier, is luck-based and only works for seven turns.

Sol (Awakening/Fates) - Regainng HP sounds great on paper, except when you realize it's only half of what you deal, and in Fates, Sol falls victim to It Only Works Once.

Salvage Blow - as stated earlier, it might've been worthwhile in another FE game, but in Fates? A chance to get iron weapons amounts to a wasted skill slot when I'm using better weapons by that point.

Good Fortune - A poor man's Renewal that is based on luck, and for most, if not all of the game, heals less than a vulnerary. Sounds to me like a wasted skill slot.

Lethality - Simply put, it's too unreliable. And in the one case where it COULD be worthwhile? Whoops, everything's immune.

Charge - Can just as easily kill you as it can help you.

Zeal - 5 extra crit likely won't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

Vengeance (Fates) - Too much risk for too little reward.

Counter (Awakening) - oftentimes, you're not taking enough damage to make it worthwhile. And ideally, you do NOT want to be in situations where it is bouncing a lot of damage back. What's more, just like Lethality, the one place where it might have use is the one where everything's immune to it. Of course, all this goes out the window when the enemy gets it... it's the biggest reason why Lunatic+ is cancerous bullshit.

Parity (PoR) - often does more harm than good

Nihil (PoR) - 15 capacity to block enemy skills in a game where almost nothing has skills? What a rip-off...

Tempest - Doubled biorhythm effects can hurt when your biorhythm is low.

Howl/Quickclaw/Shriek/Maelstrom - All four require laguz to get hit by ranged attacks, which can be really unlikely, and they're not reliable enough to make up for this. Also, this is ignoring the part where laguz don't want to be attacked by ranged attacks.

Seal Resistance - The class that gets it cannot take advantage of it, and the mage selection in Birthright is so very lacking.

Focus/Tantivy - The boosts granted aren't good enough to warrant isolating yourself from all your allies.

Prescience - It only works once a turn. Need I say more?

Savage Blow - AoE Poison Strike sounds good on paper, but more often than not, it's inconsequential, and in instances where it might help, you probably just put yourself in a precarious position trying to use it.

Rally Movement - Unlike most other Rally skills, which can be useful after moving your units, this one requires using it BEFORE moving them, and one extra square of movement at the cost of a unit's turn sounds like a waste.

Misfortunate - Arthur already has awful crit evade, and this just makes it worse. The crit evade lowering effect doesn't work nearly as well on enemies, because (1) they don't have much in terms of crit evade to begin with, and (2) they're disposable anyhow.

Sweet Tooth - Requires use of the "wait" command, and if you really need the healing, you might as well just use a vulnerary instead, since it heals more.

Perfect Pitch - I find it hard enough to find uses for the Rally command in Fates. Adding a negligible healing effect isn't helping.

Unmask - Added damage and crit against female enemies... in a game where 90% of the enemies are male. Try harder, IS.

 

Agreed with all of these.

[Shadow Mir]

19 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Wait, I'm confused. Doesn't Grisly Wound only work when you initiate the attack?

Nope - it works after any combat, like seal skills do.

 

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well I'm more not okay with it because it's just not a fun way to play. But it is perfectly possible for him to do it. It might take two or three tries since it's heavily rng based, but in terms of expedience it does save more time than legitimately playing the map.

Then why bring it up??? Because honestly, if my unit's low enough that Vantage is activating, there's also a good chance I'm in a very bad position, and don't want to be making more openings to allow enemies to attack. Besides, having to actively rely on luck is not a very good position to be in... Also, Ryoma is nothing but an overrated fraud. Birthright already has a major durability problem among most of its cast, and adding Ryoma to my team is not helping anything whatsoever.

[DragonFlames]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Nope - it works after any combat, like seal skills do.

Oh, then I've been totally wrong about Grisly Wound. I always assumed it worked like Savage Blow or Poison Strike. Okay, I'll scratch it from my list of worst skills, then. Thanks for clearing that up for me!

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Then why bring it up??? Because honestly, if my unit's low enough that Vantage is activating, there's also a good chance I'm in a very bad position, and don't want to be making more openings to allow enemies to attack. Besides, having to actively rely on luck is not a very good position to be in... Also, Ryoma is nothing but an overrated fraud. Birthright already has a major durability problem among most of its cast, and adding Ryoma to my team is not helping anything whatsoever.

Words like these are music to my ears...

[Aut]

18 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Doubling everything only counts for so much - just look.at Kaze. He has good speed, but his low strength means I cannot expect much from him if he is not going up against mages or other physically frail units. Niles is more of the same. And to be honest, Conquest is not the type of game where I can afford to rely on units that just barely scrape by. Such units will eventually become liabilities as they can no longer pick up the slack when I need them to - after all, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Anyway... While Niles might be able to double them, he needs 2 speed level ups (4 for the chapter 11 ones), which is honestly a lot when I deem him so damn unreliable. (There are other ways, but they either cost money [tonics] or units [pair up])

Being a good pair up bot is not enough for me to think they are worth using. It just isn't. It does not help that both of the natural fighters are TERRIBLE.

ORKOing in Conquest is only really worthwhile if I know my units will survive everything coming at them, else they risk ending up in a grave of their own making. And frankly, I would only really consider fielding Shigure if Azura married Corrin. And in case you forgot, this is the same Azura who has no fast supports with anyone other than Corrin...

This seems to be under the assumption that most enemies have high defense and resistance, when really only Generals would be put under there (even then, their resistance isn’t amazing). Niles is usually strong enough to 2rko a given enemy, if not straight up ORKO it with the proper pair-up. He can easily capture weakened enemies. Also, the weakest link metaphor really doesn’t work for Fire Emblem. A weak team can be carried by a single strong unit, just look at early game Fe6 or Fe7. There’s been situations in Conquest where I could’ve ignored everyone else for a single strong unit. 

2 speed is free lol. Tonics are pennies, and you get plenty of money in Conquest. And a pair-up is free for the Ch. 11 enemies, due to their lack of move. So I fail to see how that is an effective argument against capturing them.

You seem to be under the impression that a good-pairup bot isn’t that good, and that is simply not true. Imagine, for example, a mage who is 3rko’d by enemies, doesn’t double, and has that lowered to a 2rko if an enemy activates a skill (I.E. seal defense, poison strike, etc.). First of all, if this unit ORKO’s with a strong pair-up, this already goes to a 3rko, since the enemy can’t activate their skill. Then we can consider guard stance. If the unit isn’t Orkoing, then they need to have 6 guard points built up already to deflect the second attack. But if the unit is ORKOing, then if they attack a unit from zero, the second unit to attack them on enemy phase will be deflected, and same with the fourth unit to attack them on enemy phase. This unit has gone from being able to partially damage 1-2 enemies to killing five to six enemies on enemy phase. Then consider a unit that’s already bulky like Xander. Let’s say for example, he’s getting naturally 7rko’d by enemies, and when taking into account their skills that goes down to a 5rko. With a powerful pair-up, he ORKOs the enemies on enemy phase. Automatically his durability goes up two hits. Then we take into account guard stance. If Xander wasn’t doubling, and enemy skills activate when he attacks, he probably won’t attack initially, so he can activate a block once before going down (twice if attacking first doesn’t lower his ORKO threshold. So that’s 6-7 attacks. If Xander has a powerful pair-up, he can attack first, and activate a guard on every other enemy. That’s 12 attacks. So that means Xander would go from dealing some damage to 6-7 units to killing 13 units. That’s a powerful change. The point of all of this? Berserkers have the best pair-up stats, so they are the most likely to push a unit into the territory that the examples would be in. It would be preferable if a class that gives +move would suffice, but sometimes that’s not possible.

You can know if a unit will survive a group of enemies, if you do the math and take into account guard stance, and considering how much bulk guard stance gives you, there’s a very good chance the unit survives. And I don’t know how Corrin parentage is relevant, considering that rally speed just gives Shigure a lot of utility to increase the offense of the units around him

Edit: also really on Ryoma? 36 Hp, 15 Def, 13 res is plenty respectable and 17 Def and 15 res are basically free (with tonics it’s 41hp, 19def, and 17 res). Give him a good bulk pair-up like GK Silas, Chieftan Rinkah, or Scarlet and his bulk is pretty good. Not to mention his offense. 24 strength with an 11 might unpenalized 1-2 range sword is broken (26 str is free, and it’s 28 with tonics, pair up can increase it more). And vantage and astra synergies well with his 1-2 range, high crit, decent bulk, and good avoid.  All in all he’s a really good unit and easily one of birthrights best.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Aut

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Aut said:

This seems to be under the assumption that most enemies have high defense and resistance, when really only Generals would be put under there (even then, their resistance isn’t amazing). Niles is usually strong enough to 2rko a given enemy, if not straight up ORKO it with the proper pair-up. He can easily capture weakened enemies. Also, the weakest link metaphor really doesn’t work for Fire Emblem. A weak team can be carried by a single strong unit, just look at early game Fe6 or Fe7. There’s been situations in Conquest where I could’ve ignored everyone else for a single strong unit. 

2 speed is free lol. Tonics are pennies, and you get plenty of money in Conquest. And a pair-up is free for the Ch. 11 enemies, due to their lack of move. So I fail to see how that is an effective argument against capturing them.

You seem to be under the impression that a good-pairup bot isn’t that good, and that is simply not true. Imagine, for example, a mage who is 3rko’d by enemies, doesn’t double, and has that lowered to a 2rko if an enemy activates a skill (I.E. seal defense, poison strike, etc.). First of all, if this unit ORKO’s with a strong pair-up, this already goes to a 3rko, since the enemy can’t activate their skill. Then we can consider guard stance. If the unit isn’t Orkoing, then they need to have 6 guard points built up already to deflect the second attack. But if the unit is ORKOing, then if they attack a unit from zero, the second unit to attack them on enemy phase will be deflected, and same with the fourth unit to attack them on enemy phase. This unit has gone from being able to partially damage 1-2 enemies to killing five to six enemies on enemy phase. Then consider a unit that’s already bulky like Xander. Let’s say for example, he’s getting naturally 7rko’d by enemies, and when taking into account their skills that goes down to a 5rko. With a powerful pair-up, he ORKOs the enemies on enemy phase. Automatically his durability goes up two hits. Then we take into account guard stance. If Xander wasn’t doubling, and enemy skills activate when he attacks, he probably won’t attack initially, so he can activate a block once before going down (twice if attacking first doesn’t lower his ORKO threshold. So that’s 6-7 attacks. If Xander has a powerful pair-up, he can attack first, and activate a guard on every other enemy. That’s 12 attacks. So that means Xander would go from dealing some damage to 6-7 units to killing 13 units. That’s a powerful change. The point of all of this? Berserkers have the best pair-up stats, so they are the most likely to push a unit into the territory that the examples would be in. It would be preferable if a class that gives +move would suffice, but sometimes that’s not possible.

You can know if a unit will survive a group of enemies, if you do the math and take into account guard stance, and considering how much bulk guard stance gives you, there’s a very good chance the unit survives. And I don’t know how Corrin parentage is relevant, considering that rally speed just gives Shigure a lot of utility to increase the offense of the units around him

Edit: also really on Ryoma? 36 Hp, 15 Def, 13 res is plenty respectable and 17 Def and 15 res are basically free (with tonics it’s 41hp, 19def, and 17 res). Give him a good bulk pair-up like GK Silas, Chieftan Rinkah, or Scarlet and his bulk is pretty good. Not to mention his offense. 24 strength with an 11 might unpenalized 1-2 range sword is broken (26 str is free, and it’s 28 with tonics, pair up can increase it more). And vantage and astra synergies well with his 1-2 range, high crit, decent bulk, and good avoid.  All in all he’s a really good unit and easily one of birthrights best.

I don't really agree that Niles being fast is enough to make up for his lacking offenses - if anything, his not being strong either physically or magically is only hurting his case for deployment. Why in the seven hells should I bother with Niles when he's always outclassed in terms of offensive power??? Capture? Too bad mooks that are actually worth giving up unit slots for are as scarce as hen's teeth. Also, it doesn't help that one of the units that might be a big help if you capture him (Haitaka) is also a serious pain in the ass to deal with even without trying to set up such that a weakling with shaky hit rates can land the final blow. Also, FE6 and FE7 are completely different games. And they don't punish low-manning to the extent that Fates does. In addition, as far as FE7 is concerned, enemies tend to be pretty weak stats wise. So I don't see the analogy.

Tonics are cheap, yes, but cheap != free. And I say again, mooks are not really worth giving up unit slots for, for one, and second, that's assuming I built a prison by then. When there's better stuff to get asap. No thank you.

I'm not quite under that impression - rather, I'd prefer if everyone I deploy can be used as an active contributor. Got a problem with that?! And see below for dual guard stuff.

I see dual guards as unreliable - I cannot guarantee that the attack I want blocked is the one that gets blocked. Let's say your unit is in range of both a Sorcerer and a Berserker, and you have a dual guard ready. Of course, which one you're better off having blocked is dependent on the unit, but either way, there's a 50/50 chance you wind up at the mercy of the RNG. As for Shigure, once again, Azura has Corrin for a fast support and no one else. Meaning I might (and in fact most likely will) have to go out of my way to ensure he even exists because he is in the same unenviable - and unlucky - position Inigo was in Awakening.

Yes, really. Good offense isn't something I'm so desperate for in Birthright. Good defense, on the other hand, is. Also, Astra is unreliable af, and ditto for dual guards for reasons I already mentioned. And Vantage? I don't see that being a big help without lots of luck, and being in a position where you have to actively rely on luck is not a good thing, last I checked. Anyway, Silas has a severe case of mediocre, and Rinkah stinks. Scarlet, on the other hand, I'm more than happy to welcome with open arms, and not for the sake of that overrated fraud of a Hoshidan prince.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Nope - it works after any combat, like seal skills do.

 

Then why bring it up??? Because honestly, if my unit's low enough that Vantage is activating, there's also a good chance I'm in a very bad position, and don't want to be making more openings to allow enemies to attack. Besides, having to actively rely on luck is not a very good position to be in... Also, Ryoma is nothing but an overrated fraud. Birthright already has a major durability problem among most of its cast, and adding Ryoma to my team is not helping anything whatsoever.

Because Vantage does have a use. If you can kill the enemy before they have a chance to hit you, then you completely avoid any damage, or, if you're only one attack away from charging the Guard Stance bar (and with Ryoma doubling everything, he charges that bar really quickly), you also completely avoid damage that round. It's not the best skill in the world, in fact, I think it should be 100% activation ratio instead of half health (it was in Path of Radiance and it wasn't broken there), but it's a far cry from useless or actively damaging to the player like Gamble or something. Especially in Fates where it does a decent job of helping the durability issue you're complaining about. Now in Radiant Dawn, where its activation rate is based on Speed, I think it's pretty useless as it has no reliability (though I do keep it on Mia as she has it innate, and also give her Disarm, and once in a blue moon both of them activate at the same time and it's very satisfying to see the enemy unable to go through with the attack they initiated. It's usage is also bumped up once you get a Mastery Skill, but I still find the random activation to make it less useful in any tactical way).

Edited April 15, 2018 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Because Vantage does have a use. If you can kill the enemy before they have a chance to hit you, then you completely avoid any damage, or, if you're only one attack away from charging the Guard Stance bar, you also completely avoid damage that round. It's not the best skill in the world, in fact, I think it should be 100% activation ratio instead of half health (it was in Path of Radiance and it wasn't broken there), but it's a far cry from useless or actively damaging to the player like Gamble or something. Especially in Fates where it does a decent job of helping the durability issue you're complaining about. Now in Radiant Dawn, where its activation rate is based on Speed, I think it's pretty useless as it has no reliability (though I do keep it on Mia as she has it innate, and also give her Disarm, and once in a blue moon both of them activate at the same time and it's very satisfying to see the enemy unable to go through with the attack they initiated. It's usage is also bumped up once you get a Mastery Skill, but I still find the random activation to make it less useful in any tactical way).

If I score a lucky critical hit, or if the attacker was weak enough to one shot before they could launch their attack. One is actively relying on luck, and the other is a situation that might not crop up too often. The other situation you mentioned is a pretty specific one. There's also the part where dual guards are not that reliable.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

If I score a lucky critical hit, or if the attacker was weak enough to one shot before they could launch their attack. One is actively relying on luck, and the other is a situation that might not crop up too often. The other situation you mentioned is a pretty specific one. There's also the part where dual guards are not that reliable.

You're thinking of Awakening, not Fates. Dual Guards are 100% reliable in Fates. They happen on every fifth time you're attacked/attack (which for Ryoma, is about every third time he's attacked). If you'd specified Awakening instead of Fates on your first comment, I probably wouldn't have bothered replying, but I do think Vantage is a useful skill to have on Ryoma.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

You're thinking of Awakening, not Fates. Dual Guards are 100% reliable in Fates. They happen on every fifth time you're attacked/attack (which for Ryoma, is about every third time he's attacked). If you'd specified Awakening instead of Fates on your first comment, I probably wouldn't have bothered replying, but I do think Vantage is a useful skill to have on Ryoma.

No I am not - sure, I do know when it'll activate, but I don't have control over what does get blocked, as I said earlier.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

No I am not - sure, I do know when it'll activate, but I don't have control over what does get blocked, as I said earlier.

It still completely negates an attack. And as you said, Birthright has durability issues, you don't want to get hit by anything. And reliably blocking roughly a third of all attacks going his way is really good. Vantage just pushes the buffer to block the attack before the enemy strikes, rather than sitting with a full defense bar and waiting for the next round of combat (and thus potentially wasting four shields on the gauge by Ryoma doubling when the bars already full).

Or, to list everything this way.

-Ryoma has about 30% crit chance (thanks to high skill, class bonus and Bushido)

-Ryoma has a 15% chance of activating Astra (roughly 30 skill divided by 2). If Astra activates it will fill the shield gauge regardless.

-I've also given my Ryoma Aether (a DLC skill, but one you can get for free) further boosting his kill chance by another 15% plus a recover.

-If the Shield Gauge is 4/5 of the way filled, he will immediately fill it before being attacked. Let's say the odds of this happening are 15% (it's one of five states the shield gauge can be in and any given time, knocking off 5% because a full shield guage is more likely than any other state due to only being expended when attacked).

Given all of these factors, if Ryoma is attacked while under half health, add up all those percentages and you have a 57% chance of immediately negating any attack thrown at him (if my maths is right and assuming Aether and a Crit are powerful enough to kill the enemy, which with Ryoma is good bet). If you want to discount Aether because it takes extra effort, then the chances are still at 50%.

So in other words, Vantage has a ~50% chance of negating any damage that comes at a paired up Ryoma when he's at less than 50% (and that's not even taking into account the chances of Ryoma simply killing a weakened enemy  without a crit or proc). I, for one, think that's a pretty decent skill.

EDIT: Just remembered the Dual Guard Gauge has six states including empty. So you might want to knock the chances of that occurring down to about 10%. Still, even if you ignore that altogether and any proc skills you might have on him, his Crit rate alone makes give Vantage decent utility.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Jotari

[MyBoyHector]

Top 3 best would have to be Aether, Nihil and Astra. Aether just flat out owns people, Nihil is annoying and Astra is just death by a thousand cuts.

Worst..... Id say either swap or Replicate, as Shove/smite is just better than Swap, and Replicate while makes a duplicate of someone, also increases your death rate. One thing I will say about Replicate though, if used correctly can be very funny, as if you keep one half back next to a healer and you send another in, you can heal the half that is at the back with a healer without putting a healer in harms way.

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, MyBoyHector said:

Top 3 best would have to be Aether, Nihil and Astra. Aether just flat out owns people, Nihil is annoying and Astra is just death by a thousand cuts.

Worst..... Id say either swap or Replicate, as Shove/smite is just better than Swap, and Replicate while makes a duplicate of someone, also increases your death rate. One thing I will say about Replicate though, if used correctly can be very funny, as if you keep one half back next to a healer and you send another in, you can heal the half that is at the back with a healer without putting a healer in harms way.

I think Replicate is really good (possibly the best in Fates). Sure it increases your death rate, but it also allows you to field another unit and put in an extra attack each turn which is a massive boon. It's a bit higher risk, but some potentially much higher rewards. And even if you don't want to make that risk, you can just use the replica as Pair Up Bonus fodder (well actually you should use the replica as the attacker and the actual unit as the Pair Up fodder as the replica can't build supports). They also share the same inventory, so you can have a bit of fun warping items across the map for trading, especially if you replicate Corrin (and by extension, the convoy).

Edited April 15, 2018 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

32 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It still completely negates an attack. And as you said, Birthright has durability issues, you don't want to get hit by anything. And reliably blocking roughly a third of all attacks going his way is really good. Vantage just pushes the buffer to block the attack before the enemy strikes, rather than sitting with a full defense bar and waiting for the next round of combat (and thus potentially wasting four shields on the gauge by Ryoma doubling when the bars already full).

Or, to list everything this way.

-Ryoma has about 30% crit chance (thanks to high skill, class bonus and Bushido)

-Ryoma has a 15% chance of activating Astra (roughly 30 skill divided by 2). If Astra activates it will fill the shield gauge regardless.

-I've also given my Ryoma Aether (a DLC skill, but one you can get for free) further boosting his kill chance by another 15% plus a recover.

-If the Shield Gauge is 4/5 of the way filled, he will immediately fill it before being attacked. Let's say the odds of this happening are 15% (it's one of five states the shield gauge can be in and any given time, knocking off 5% because a full shield guage is more likely than any other state due to only being expended when attacked).

Given all of these factors, if Ryoma is attacked while under half health, add up all those percentages and you have a 57% chance of immediately negating any attack thrown at him (if my maths is right and assuming Aether and a Crit are powerful enough to kill the enemy, which with Ryoma is good bet). If you want to discount Aether because it takes extra effort, then the chances are still at 50%.

So in other words, Vantage has a ~50% chance of negating any damage that comes at a paired up Ryoma when he's at less than 50%. I, for one, think that's a pretty decent skill.

EDIT: Just remembered the Dual Guard Gauge has six states including empty. So you might want to knock the chances of that occurring down to about 10%. Still, even if you ignore that altogether and any proc skills you might have on him, his Crit rate alone makes give Vantage decent utility.

Negating an attack is fine... If the attack that's getting blocked is actually threatening, that is. Am I going to be okay with a dual guard kicking in on a fighter that most likely would've whiffed anyway? No way, because my dual guard just got wasted, leaving me at the mercy of the RNG because now I don't have a dual guard ready for attacks that would actually pose a threat. As for Astra, not only is it unreliable, but the shield gauge filling is only if the enemy survives long enough for all attacks to play out. Aether is unreliable too, and requires DLC. Oh, and for your information, the free Aether is on a female only class you can only get one of. Crits, needless to say, are unreliable. Goddesses, I should NOT need to tell you this... But for whatever reason, I do.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[MyBoyHector]

6 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Negating an attack is fine... If the attack that's getting blocked is actually threatening, that is. Am I going to be okay with a dual guard kicking in on a fighter that most likely would've whiffed anyway? No way, because my dual guard just got wasted, leaving me at the mercy of the RNG because now I don't have a dual guard ready for attacks that would actually pose a threat. As for Astra, not only is it unreliable, but the shield gauge filling is only if the enemy survives long enough for all attacks to play out. Aether is unreliable too, and requires DLC. Oh, and for your information, the free Aether is on a female only class you can only get one of. Crits, needless to say, are unreliable. Goddesses, I should NOT need to tell you this... But for whatever reason, I do.

Well its also on most lords in Fire Emblem, Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't just all games in general that feature skills (like Holy war, PoR, etc?)

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Negating an attack is fine... If the attack that's getting blocked is actually threatening, that is. Am I going to be okay with a dual guard kicking in on a fighter that most likely would've whiffed anyway? No way, because my dual guard just got wasted, leaving me at the mercy of the RNG because now I don't have a dual guard ready for attacks that would actually pose a threat. As for Astra, not only is it unreliable, but the shield gauge filling is only if the enemy survives long enough for all attacks to play out. Aether is unreliable too, and requires DLC. Oh, and for your information, the free Aether is on a female only class you can only get one of. Crits, needless to say, are unreliable. Goddesses, I should NOT need to tell you this... But for whatever reason, I do.

Ah, you're right about Aether being female only from DLC (that slipped my mind, I gave Ryoma Aether via Vanguard). Yes, it's all unreliable, but unreliable doesn't mean its useless. Otherwise you might as well relegate all skills with a proc rate to the slush pile, and hey, if that's your strategy then good for you. But RNG is a part of Fire Emblem. Lack of reliability is part of the game. You try to reduce that as much as you can, but unless you only ever use Iron Swords and nothing else 100% of the time, percentages being less than 100 is going to happen in the game. 50% of avoiding damage on all attacks is great, especially when Ryoma is such a fantastic dodge tank to begin with. If it avoided 100% of all attacks on enemy phase then it'd be the best skill there is. But failing that, even evading 30% of all damage is decent. Unreliable, yes, and yes, the more reliable a skill is the better (that's explicitly why I said the Fates version is better than the Radiant Dawn version), but avoiding such a large number of attacks is a far cry better than the likes of Sacred Stone's Sure strike or Radiant Dawn's Howl/Shriek etc.

[Shadow Mir]

23 minutes ago, MyBoyHector said:

Top 3 best would have to be Aether, Nihil and Astra. Aether just flat out owns people, Nihil is annoying and Astra is just death by a thousand cuts.

Worst..... Id say either swap or Replicate, as Shove/smite is just better than Swap, and Replicate while makes a duplicate of someone, also increases your death rate. One thing I will say about Replicate though, if used correctly can be very funny, as if you keep one half back next to a healer and you send another in, you can heal the half that is at the back with a healer without putting a healer in harms way.

I don't see what's so great about Nihil or Astra, at least in Tellius - in both games, Nihil was wasted capacity for most of the game, especially in PoR. Astra, I went over in a post earlier.

22 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I think Replicate is really good (possibly the best in Fates). Sure it increases your death rate, but it also allows you to field another unit and put in an extra attack each turn which is a massive boon. It's a bit higher risk, but some potentially much higher rewards. And even if you don't want to make that risk, you can just use the replica as Pair Up Bonus fodder (well actually you should use the replica as the attacker and the actual unit as the Pair Up fodder as the replica can't build supports). They also share the same inventory, so you can have a bit of fun warping items across the map for trading, especially if you replicate Corrin (and by extension, the convoy).

Here's something that's a hoot - Replicate is a level 15 skill. You know what that means? You aren't getting much mileage out of it since the game is practically over by then.

7 minutes ago, MyBoyHector said:

Well its also on most lords in Fire Emblem, Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't just all games in general that feature skills (like Holy war, PoR, etc?)

Um... What...? Are you talking about Aether? If so, then no, because it didn't exist until PoR.