What do you think happened in Lucina's future?

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

I've just noticed how odd it is that absolutely everyone that traveled back in time just happened to be related to the first gen...Like the entire world was put to the sword and everyone had to fight or get wiped out. Isn't it hugely coincidental that nobody that was unrelated to Chrom's group made any head way and was included on the mission back in time? Did Lucina have some kind of strict nepotism rule for joining her group? "You're only allowed in the inner circle if you're related to the following people;" The closest we get is Yen'fay, who is a sibling to one of the army members, instead of a child, and he's only relegated to Spot Pass at the very end of the game. And I believe everything is done to imply that his presence in the world is completely incidental to Lucina's efforts given he doesn't have any interactions with the other time travelers and doesn't appear in future past (which begs the question, how did he end up coming to the present, and why doesn't he look twenty years older?)

Drama CDs had it that literally everyone else in Ylisstol that were allies with Lucina and the others died. All of them. Grima made a huge assault and even personally attacked. Only the Awakening kids survived.

[Jotari]

20 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Drama CDs had it that literally everyone else in Ylisstol that were allies with Lucina and the others died. All of them. Grima made a huge assault and even personally attacked. Only the Awakening kids survived.

Yeah, which like I said, is really damn coincidental. Absolutely no one else in the world was able enough to go with Lucina. I know breeding mechanics makes the kids strong, but they're seriously not so OP that everyone else in the world is inconsequential.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, which like I said, is really damn coincidental. Absolutely no one else in the world was able enough to go with Lucina. I know breeding mechanics makes the kids strong, but they're seriously not so OP that everyone else in the world is inconsequential.

It could very well be tied to other cases, like destiny. Throughout Fire Emblem, destiny and fate is a topic that is mentioned a lot throughout it, especially Genealogy. Kaga even states in an interview that quintessence is called a force of fate, rather than merely life force. So it can be considered to be a force that allows those that are simply not yet destined to die to not die yet. Though in the cases that they do, the Valkyrie Staff can reverse that fate. 

It can be coincidence, but it could also be tied to fate and destiny.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It could very well be tied to other cases, like destiny. Throughout Fire Emblem, destiny and fate is a topic that is mentioned a lot throughout it, especially Genealogy. Kaga even states in an interview that quintessence is called a force of fate, rather than merely life force. So it can be considered to be a force that allows those that are simply not yet destined to die to not die yet. Though in the cases that they do, the Valkyrie Staff can reverse that fate. 

It can be coincidence, but it could also be tied to fate and destiny.

Kind of undermines Lucina's entire perception that she's challenging and changing fate.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Kind of undermines Lucina's entire perception that she's challenging and changing fate.

No it doesn't. In fact, it adds to it. The entire point is how much of a struggle changing your fate is. Even though she's gone back in time, Lucina keeps feeling like her efforts are not enough. She couldn't stop Emmeryn's death, she thought that she failed to stop Basilio's death, and then she sees Grima return. 

By all accounts, destiny seemed impossible to change, but the change did begin to happen. It was tough, but in the end, destiny had been altered. 

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No it doesn't. In fact, it adds to it. The entire point is how much of a struggle changing your fate is. Even though she's gone back in time, Lucina keeps feeling like her efforts are not enough. She couldn't stop Emmeryn's death, she thought that she failed to stop Basilio's death, and then she sees Grima return. 

By all accounts, destiny seemed impossible to change, but the change did begin to happen. It was tough, but in the end, destiny had been altered. 

But if fate specifically chose her and the other second gen children to go back in time to change fate, then fate was never really changed. Fate always decreed her future be ruined and another be saved. Her actions were just part of the grand plan that she had no control over.

[Soleater]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

The Drama CDs (Volume 3) actually shows that they had been together for quite some time. Several conversations in other cases also indicates that they have known each other for quite some time as well. Like Cynthia mentions how Kjelle protected her from a Risen dagger when they were kids. Lucina says that she's seen how much Severa's worked hard for so long. Hell, Severa's S support with Owain shows that she's had a crush on him since they were younger, cause her sword has his name written on it. 

Hell, Severa and Cynthia actually talk like old friends and reminiscing in Harvest Scramble. 

Kjelle and Lucina talk in Harvest Scramble and Kjelle confesses that she doesn't think the others are weak at all, since she confessed they have saved her countless times. 

When you look at these things, it really shows that they've known each other. 

I can be okay with there being some friction. Fate of the world and the hell they've experienced being on their heads, so they forced themselves to work together. So when they are alone, I can understand them having annoyances. But its the lack of indication in their actual supports about how they've gone through hell that bothers me. Everything in these other conversations tends to somehow indicate they've known each other not just for a little bit, but practically since they were kids. 

I smell retconning...But perhaps that's why in the first place, they made them bring up their past in DLC rather than the support conversation?  Because they messed that up, realized, but instead of idk patching it out, they made a bunch of DLC that gives them more backstory?  I actually don't mind this too much, since the intention was still there - and the support conversations themselves don't feel out of place to me, and could still reasonably happen.

Also, how canon are the drama-cds?  I can see the first one being canon, since it took place in between a time skip, but as much as I love the second one, the event of Robin getting sick was kind of a big deal in there?  And the fact Lucina ran into Henry, and yet it doesn't come up in game at all that he helped her out or anything?

Edited May 1, 2018 by Soleater

[omegaxis1]

13 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But if fate specifically chose her and the other second gen children to go back in time to change fate, then fate was never really changed. Fate always decreed her future be ruined and another be saved. Her actions were just part of the grand plan that she had no control over.

That's incorrect. The issue with that is that fate can rewrite fate itself, but fate only allows events to unfold as per it was meant to. It cannot alter what is destined to be. Grima was destined to return and bring ruination to the world. Lucina was likely destined to fight Grima in a clash, as per Future Past. 

So when Lucina went back in time, fate wasn't guiding her to change what happened, but rather what happened there was fate trying to prevent Lucina from altering it in the end. So the theme of Awakening, which is to change fate still plays through. 

1 minute ago, Soleater said:

Also, how canon are the drama-cds?  I can see the first one being canon, since it took place in between a time skip, but as much as I love the second one, the event of Robin getting sick is kind of a big deal?

I would say the events of volume 3 are also likely canon or the narrative is, cause it ties in to the cutscene where Ylisstol castle is attacked and Grima almost kills Lucina.

Edited May 1, 2018 by omegaxis1

[Soleater]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I would say the events of volume 3 are also likely canon or the narrative is, cause it ties in to the cutscene where Ylisstol castle is attacked and Grima almost kills Lucina.

Ah, that makes sense then - I watched the first bit I think, but never got farther, so thanks for correcting me

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's incorrect. The issue with that is that fate can rewrite fate itself, but fate only allows events to unfold as per it was meant to. It cannot alter what is destined to be. Grima was destined to return and bring ruination to the world. Lucina was likely destined to fight Grima in a clash, as per Future Past. 

So when Lucina went back in time, fate wasn't guiding her to change what happened, but rather what happened there was fate trying to prevent Lucina from altering it in the end. So the theme of Awakening, which is to change fate still plays through. 

If fate chooses Lucina to be a vehicle to change fate, then she's not changing fate, that's fate changing itself. Either fate didn't choose the children and it's a massive coincidence that those specific people ended up on the mission to change the past, or fate did choose the children and thus their efforts to change fate were in itself a part of fate's design. The two things can't simultaneously be true.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

If fate chooses Lucina to be a vehicle to change fate, then she's not changing fate, that's fate changing itself. Either fate didn't choose the children and it's a massive coincidence that those specific people ended up on the mission to change the past, or fate did choose the children and thus their efforts to change fate were in itself a part of fate's design. The two things can't simultaneously be true.

Who knows. I'm really just spitballing here. Perhaps fate was that they were always destined to die in that event. But their own will and struggle made them survive. 

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Who knows. I'm really just spitballing here. Perhaps fate was that they were always destined to die in that event. But their own will and struggle made them survive. 

Yeah, but then what about all the other people with their own will and struggle that just didn't happen to have parents that hung out with Chrom? Were they just not struggling hard enough?

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Jotari said:

Yeah, but then what about all the other people with their own will and struggle that just didn't happen to have parents that hung out with Chrom? Were they just not struggling hard enough?

One thing to understand is that there were a lot more people in the army. The named ones we know are the ones that are connected to the kids. We see how there are generic soldiers that are with us. 

In other words, the kids survival and going back in time is showing us the parents of the kids that survive. If there were any other survivors, we would see the kids or people connected to them. But we don't. 

[Jotari]

16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

One thing to understand is that there were a lot more people in the army. The named ones we know are the ones that are connected to the kids. We see how there are generic soldiers that are with us. 

In other words, the kids survival and going back in time is showing us the parents of the kids that survive. If there were any other survivors, we would see the kids or people connected to them. But we don't. 

Yeah, I guess that's possible. Still, it means no one noteworthy from the future that isn't connected to the group. It'd be kind of nice if there were some set units that come from the future regardless that can actually influence the plot, kind of like how you'll always Hannibal in Genealogy of the Holy War.

[Soleater]

@Jotari@omegaxis1 (I'm not going to quote the entire conversation ^^")

Or perhaps it has something to do with Naga's protection?  Since the Naga in Awakening is different from the Naga in Marth's time, it's possible she has different ideals than the "original" Naga.  For example, I don't think Marth's Naga would have belittled the avatar by calling them "Fellblood" or trying to get them to sacrifice themselves like Awakening Naga did - Marth's Naga probably would have tried to protect every human she could, while Awakening!Naga might have some bias towards holy bloods (such as Owain and Lucina) and their group, and Divine Dragons such as Nah, even if just half

[ZeManaphy]

 

31 minutes ago, Soleater said:

I smell retconning...But perhaps that's why in the first place, they made them bring up their past in DLC rather than the support conversation?  Because they messed that up, realized, but instead of idk patching it out, they made a bunch of DLC that gives them more backstory?  I actually don't mind this too much, since the intention was still there - and the support conversations themselves don't feel out of place to me, and could still reasonably happen.

Also, how canon are the drama-cds?  I can see the first one being canon, since it took place in between a time skip, but as much as I love the second one, the event of Robin getting sick was kind of a big deal in there?  And the fact Lucina ran into Henry, and yet it doesn't come up in game at all that he helped her out or anything?

At the end of the CD featuring Lucina and the children, it ends when they go into the future, so I would say that its complete canon. 

You know what bugs me? Lucina and all the future kids should have been erased from history because their future would have ceased to exist. I can't be the only one who gets bugged that all of them resume their lives in the past as if it never happened.

[Soleater]

1 minute ago, ZeManaphy said:

At the end of the CD featuring Lucina and the children, it ends when they go into the future, so I would say that its complete canon. 

You know what bugs me? Lucina and all the future kids should have been erased from history because their future would have ceased to exist. I can't be the only one who gets bugged that all of them resume their lives in the past as if it never happened.

Actually, if you don't get Lucina married to anyone (like I did), you get this ending for her:

"Lucina disappeared after whispering these words to her infant self: "Yours will be a happy future." Did she journey to another land or back to her own time? ...No one knows for certain."

Same goes if she becomes "Companions" with Owain:

"Owain set off on a lengthy quest with Lucina to "stay his sword hand." Did they simply journey to another land, or did they return to their own time? None know for certain."

I actually think it's kind of sweet that the Awakening kids finally get to live a normal life - something they were robbed of in their own time

[ZeManaphy]

1 minute ago, Soleater said:

Actually, if you don't get Lucina married to anyone (like I did), you get this ending for her:

"Lucina disappeared after whispering these words to her infant self: "Yours will be a happy future." Did she journey to another land or back to her own time? ...No one knows for certain."

Same goes if she becomes "Companions" with Owain:

"Owain set off on a lengthy quest with Lucina to "stay his sword hand." Did they simply journey to another land, or did they return to their own time? None know for certain."

I actually think it's kind of sweet that the Awakening kids finally get to live a normal life - something they were robbed of in their own time

But even if they did disappear, their "selves" from that era would enjoy a normal life, so technically yes, the Awakening kids would have gotten a normal life even they had been erased. 

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Soleater said:

@Jotari@omegaxis1 (I'm not going to quote the entire conversation ^^")

Or perhaps it has something to do with Naga's protection?  Since the Naga in Awakening is different from the Naga in Marth's time, it's possible she has different ideals than the "original" Naga.  For example, I don't think Marth's Naga would have belittled the avatar by calling them "Fellblood" or trying to get them to sacrifice themselves like Awakening Naga did - Marth's Naga probably would have tried to protect every human she could, while Awakening!Naga might have some bias towards holy bloods (such as Owain and Lucina) and their group, and Divine Dragons such as Nah, even if just half

That's... far from accurate. Naga wasn't belittling Robin by calling him Fellblood, but rather addressing it for what it was. She even says that his power resembles much like her own. If you were belittling someone, you would not compare yourself to them. She also was not trying to get him to sacrifice him to stop Grima. In fact, she made it clear that if Robin did this, he would most certainly die, and leaves it purely up to them. Hell, Chrom is against Robin trying to sacrifice himself, and Naga did nothing to argue against it, saying that it was Robin's choice. 

There's no telling whether the Naga in Awakening is the same Naga in the Archanea series. Because this Naga could be Nagi, the reincarnation of Naga from the Archanea series. Also, the Naga in Archanea series wasn't better at all. She literally considered killing her own daughter, Tiki, because she worried that she would degenerate and destroy the world. And even if she didn't kill Tiki in the end, she condemned the girl to an eternal sleep that was only stopped because Bantu pitied Tiki. 

Also, Naga in the Archanea series went to Jugdral, but despite Forseti wanting to stay behind and protect them, Naga said that it was "silly" to stay with the humans. 

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, I guess that's possible. Still, it means no one noteworthy from the future that isn't connected to the group. It'd be kind of nice if there were some set units that come from the future regardless that can actually influence the plot, kind of like how you'll always Hannibal in Genealogy of the Holy War.

The SpotPass could connect to that. Yen'fay is highly considered to be from the original future. And the Aversa that got the Einherjar cards could very well be from the original future as well. 

8 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

You know what bugs me? Lucina and all the future kids should have been erased from history because their future would have ceased to exist. I can't be the only one who gets bugged that all of them resume their lives in the past as if it never happened.

Multiverse theory. The linelines are not linear at all. Their future world actually remains unchanged. But they merely created an alternate timeline where they saved the world.

Also, if Lucina ceased to exist, that means Robin wakes up to find out his wife is gone. XP

[Lightchao42]

13 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

At the end of the CD featuring Lucina and the children, it ends when they go into the future, so I would say that its complete canon. 

You know what bugs me? Lucina and all the future kids should have been erased from history because their future would have ceased to exist. I can't be the only one who gets bugged that all of them resume their lives in the past as if it never happened.

Actually FE time travel works on Dragon Ball time travel logic, a recent Dragon Ball Super episode even went out of its way to explain how time travel works in that setting. Essentially, "time travel" just creates another timeline instead of actually changing the past, so Lucina's future and the people from that future were unaffected by events in the "present."

Edited May 1, 2018 by Lightchao42

[Soleater]

11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's... far from accurate. Naga wasn't belittling Robin by calling him Fellblood, but rather addressing it for what it was. She even says that his power resembles much like her own. If you were belittling someone, you would not compare yourself to them. She also was not trying to get him to sacrifice him to stop Grima. In fact, she made it clear that if Robin did this, he would most certainly die, and leaves it purely up to them. Hell, Chrom is against Robin trying to sacrifice himself, and Naga did nothing to argue against it, saying that it was Robin's choice. 

There's no telling whether the Naga in Awakening is the same Naga in the Archanea series. Because this Naga could be Nagi, the reincarnation of Naga from the Archanea series. Also, the Naga in Archanea series wasn't better at all. She literally considered killing her own daughter, Tiki, because she worried that she would degenerate and destroy the world. And even if she didn't kill Tiki in the end, she condemned the girl to an eternal sleep that was only stopped because Bantu pitied Tiki. 

Also, Naga in the Archanea series went to Jugdral, but despite Forseti wanting to stay behind and protect them, Naga said that it was "silly" to stay with the humans.

Okay, I misremembered the sacrifice thing - I forgot that she wasn't trying to push Robin into that and I don't know why.  And maybe the belittling thing is more up to interpretation, since the whole Future Past DLC showed Robin being VERY upset at his lack of humanity, but I thought it was pretty much confirmed that SD!Naga and Awakening!Naga were two different people?  I mean it's not like Tiki ever refers to Awakening!Naga as her mom or anything.  And I wasn't advocating for SD!Naga being better - just that she tends to value humanity over her own kind, and probably wouldn't let Robin do something like that, or leave the choice up to them.  I mean, how she treated Tiki is just one example, and the way she condemned Duma and Mila to killing each other by giving Duma Falchion isn't indicative towards someone who cares about her own kind.  But you can't deny that she cared for humanity - perhaps her leaving humanity was her way of saying that humanity would be for the best; now I will fully admit that I've never played Shadow Dragon or Mystery of the Emblem (unfortunately), and most of my knowledge comes from potentially dubious wikis, so I could be completely wrong about all the stuff I'm saying about Shadow Dragon, but in the Future Past DLC, you see Tiki ascend to the title of "Naga", so it's HIGHLY likely that Awakening!Naga isn't SD!Naga

Closer to on topic, one thing I'd like to explore is how the surviving Manakete's handled Grima's rise - we know from Nowi that there are some tucked away villages of them left, but since it seems like mostly humans and Divine Dragons that Grima despises (and the latter most likely because it was Naga that sealed him in the first place more than anything else), so do you think Grima may...spare?  The other dragons?  Or do you think he'd strike them down too?  This is something I'd like to know about Lucina's future

[Light Strategist]

What do I think happened in it?


Too much death...
So much pain and suffering...
The lack of any and all hope...
Life was nothing more than torture and despair...
The tales of a hero stepping forth and freeing them from the chaos ultimately turned out to be false... nobody stepped forward and the world was left to ruin.
Nothing remained but the crushed hopes of broken corpses and the ruins of a beautiful world...

Sure, Anankos saw the aftermath of Grima's defeat but is that really justice for that future?

The people that would lead the restoration of the world disappeared never to be seen again...

Imagine having lived in that hellscape...

I couldn't have dealt with it...

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Soleater said:

Okay, I misremembered the sacrifice thing - I forgot that she wasn't trying to push Robin into that and I don't know why.  And maybe the belittling thing is more up to interpretation, since the whole Future Past DLC showed Robin being VERY upset at his lack of humanity, but I thought it was pretty much confirmed that SD!Naga and Awakening!Naga were two different people?  I mean it's not like Tiki ever refers to Awakening!Naga as her mom or anything.  And I wasn't advocating for SD!Naga being better - just that she tends to value humanity over her own kind, and probably wouldn't let Robin do something like that, or leave the choice up to them.  I mean, how she treated Tiki is just one example, and the way she condemned Duma and Mila to killing each other by giving Duma Falchion isn't indicative towards someone who cares about her own kind.  But you can't deny that she cared for humanity - perhaps her leaving humanity was her way of saying that humanity would be for the best; now I will fully admit that I've never played Shadow Dragon or Mystery of the Emblem (unfortunately), and most of my knowledge comes from potentially dubious wikis, so I could be completely wrong about all the stuff I'm saying about Shadow Dragon, but in the Future Past DLC, you see Tiki ascend to the title of "Naga", so it's HIGHLY likely that Awakening!Naga isn't SD!Naga

I'll expain some things then. Yes, Future Past 3 shows that Naga can be a title to inherit. However, in SD, it's heavily implied that Nagi is Naga that has reincarnated. This is due to how in SD, if Nagi fights Medeus, Medeus comments that he was not the only dragon that revived, and talks like he knows her. Not only that, but Nagi's title is referred to as Divine Dragon King Incarnation or Holy Avatar. 

Naga does value humanity a great deal. However, this doesn't mean that SD Naga wouldn't do anything that Awakening did. Because frankly, we never saw SD Naga. We only just hear about her. 

[Soleater]

11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'll expain some things then. Yes, Future Past 3 shows that Naga can be a title to inherit. However, in SD, it's heavily implied that Nagi is Naga that has reincarnated. This is due to how in SD, if Nagi fights Medeus, Medeus comments that he was not the only dragon that revived, and talks like he knows her. Not only that, but Nagi's title is referred to as Divine Dragon King Incarnation or Holy Avatar. 

Naga does value humanity a great deal. However, this doesn't mean that SD Naga wouldn't do anything that Awakening did. Because frankly, we never saw SD Naga. We only just hear about her. 

...I forgot about Nagi - but doesn't that mean it's even more likely Awakening!Naga isn't the SD!Naga?  Unless Nagi ascended to "Nagahood" and...Idk there aren't enough details on how Divine Dragon ascension works, and we'll probably never get those details :/

Wait you never see SD Naga?...Weird, with how important of a character she is, but I suppose she was supposed to play a god-like figure, and it was only Awakening that demystified her
 

15 minutes ago, Light Strategist said:

What do I think happened in it?


Too much death...
So much pain and suffering...
The lack of any and all hope...
Life was nothing more than torture and despair...
The tales of a hero stepping forth and freeing them from the chaos ultimately turned out to be false... nobody stepped forward and the world was left to ruin.
Nothing remained but the crushed hopes of broken corpses and the ruins of a beautiful world...

Sure, Anankos saw the aftermath of Grima's defeat but is that really justice for that future?

The people that would lead the restoration of the world disappeared never to be seen again...

Imagine having lived in that hellscape...

I couldn't have dealt with it...

And that's why it would make a great game!  Or at least some form of side content that's largely focused on Lucina's trials through her future...Idk we just need more stuff on this part of Awakening imo ^^

Edited May 1, 2018 by Soleater