New Legendary Hero: Lyn, Lady of the Wind

[Tybrosion]

23 minutes ago, Roflolxp54 said:

I'm fairly certain even Lyn fans are at least a bit annoyed by the timing of Legendary Lyn's debut; there's the Combat Boosts banner which has Brave Lyn as a Focus unit. Assuming the player didn't get baited by Brave Lyn, they'd have to decide between going for Legendary Lyn (sniping is hell on Legendary Heroes banners) or Brave Lyn.

Yeah, and I don't think anyone feels even remotely bad about that when you only have five versions of your favorite to play around with now while plenty others are still waiting on their favorite to even get into the game at all, if they even do make it in. I apologize if that came off as harsh, but I really don't think this is a good time for Lyn fans to voice any complaints at all unless if you want even more ire to get thrown her way.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Tybrosion

[Ice Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Cute Chao said:

It's been shown time and time again that at the current rate, there will be a lot of characters that aren't in FE Heroes for a very long time, if ever.

It's also been shown time and time again that even without duplicate characters at all, it would not be feasible to implement every single character in a reasonable amount of time without one of the following:

• New character banners of more than 6 characters. Six characters per banner is only 144 new characters each year, which means it will still take 4 or more years to get around to everyone one time each.
• Mass character releases. Even with one 70-character release every year and 3-character banners with no character repeats at all, you're only equal to the release rate of the previous bullet point.

The addition of alts is obviously slowing things down, but isn't significantly changing the actual outcome.

[Cute Chao]

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's also been shown time and time again that even without duplicate characters at all, it would not be feasible to implement every single character in a reasonable amount of time without one of the following:

• New character banners of more than 6 characters. Six characters per banner is only 144 new characters each year, which means it will still take 4 or more years to get around to everyone one time each.
• Mass character releases. Even with one 70-character release every year and 3-character banners with no character repeats at all, you're only equal to the release rate of the previous bullet point.

The addition of alts is obviously slowing things down, but isn't significantly changing the actual outcome.

Yes, I got that, even if I always had a tiny hope they might do a mass character release (although didn't think of the figures). 

But the alts are slowing it down in the end, no matter how great or small, and that's what's annoying people. Maybe they're not slowing it down as much as it seems, but they are still doing so. So people adding 'patience' on top of that is really not helping. 

There's still the tiniest hope of mass releases, but I'm not holding my breath. 

Edit: Actually, no, at the start of the game I didn't get it. I had a naive hope. Even after the seasonals, I still thought the majority. Now I think we'll be lucky if we get half, and that's without including new games coming in. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Cute Chao

[Kurrin]

something something Lyn shilling something

Now that that's over with, on to actual thoughts:

Reds. I can live with ignoring them this time:
Ike. Mine is +4 with Summoner Support. He's plenty fine as is.
Fellica. Love her art, don't have her, but I'm not hurting for an infantry swordie.
Gleipneirika. You're not Knoll and I already have L'Arachel/better, bluer you.

Greens:
Lyn. I have nothing else to say that probably hasn't already been said. She looks like a great unit, but I have Gunnthra and she serves me quite well for Wind Blessing related stuff.
Inigo. Already got him and he has nothing I care to inherit.
Henry. Don't have him, so he's the only one I really care to get from the Greens.

Colorless:
Robin. Got her, but I wouldn't complain about getting one that isn't -RES/ is -HP, +Anything else.
Genny. Got her, and Wrathful Staff is nice and all, but I don't feel a great need for it. I'm fine with how my healers are atm.
Jakob. See Henry.

Blues:
Ephraim. At the very least I'd like to get him so I could better complete Fire Blessing quests/actually play Blessed Fountain levels.
Shigure. See Inigo. Although, I wouldn't complain about getting one that isn't -SPD.
Micaiah. ♪ Oh, Micky, you're so fine. You're so fine and still not mine. ♪ Also, Tellius bias.

[Lewyn]

Well I fully expected seasonals to be alts when I started heroes.  I never played gacha, but I knew enough to know that seasonal units are big money makers and are usually popular characters in silly costumes or whatever.  Anyways with the first seasonal banner they set a precedent, and I had no problem with.  Yes seasonal banners are going to be existing characters in silly seasonal attire.  Fine.  I don't want new heroes do debut in a silly costume, I'd rather them come similar to their existing form in the main game. 

However they also set a precedent with new hero banners throughout the year, though the number of characters changed it was always brand new characters.  Characters that weren't already in the game in any form.  So last year many people felt that we would be seeing fresh faces at a very good pace and these new hero banners were exciting events to see what new individuals from our beloved fire emblem universe would get in.

So why so many people are pissed, is after Zelgius, Eirika, this tradition was broken and seemingly permanently.  Now new hero banners will always have alts, not only that the alts will be the centerpiece or star attraction of the banner not the new heroes we get.  This is not something that was done in the beginning, this is something that started in January.  Never mind the Thracia nonsense where they show Leif, Nanna, and Finn as a "Hey don't worry guys, we hear you!  Thracia is coming, Leif is coming, and it is going to be all new characters!"  Yeah pulled the wool over most peoples eyes.  Leif was an after thought, Reinhardt alt was the big reveal, and we get Olwen alt on top of that.  Finn is not on the banner at all, rather gets absolutely shafted as a generic TT lance unit. 

Not only that.  The first two legendary heroes were original characters in Fjorm and Gunnthra.  However then we got Vanguard Ike, then Ephraim, then Robin, now Lyn.  Yeah at first it seemed legendary heroes would be important characters to the main storyline.  There was also a hope that maybe use the spot for unplayable god characters like Naga and such.  Instead it became yet another place to feature alts.  

In short if they were doing things like last year, new hero banners would be bigger and they would be alt free.  Just new characters debuting from the first time.  Exciting events to find out who will get in next!  So yeah doesn't mean every character would get in, but a lot more new characters would be in already and there would generally be a lot more hope that characters who aren't top 10 or 20 most popular could get in.   

[Sunwoo]

7 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Everyone knew Lyn was gonna get a fifth variant. Everyone KNEW she was getting a Legendary, just like we know characters like Marth and Eirika will at some point. Is it just the timing of this that has people up in arms? Would people still be upset if she got her Legendary later in December instead of now?

I'd be much less annoyed about it, at the very least. I don't think Lyn needed a fifth alt until at least two years after the game had been out -- especially when freaking Marth has not gotten anything. We figured she was going to get a legendary hero variant. It just didn't need to be this soon. Her last alt variant was in February. It hasn't even been three months, and there are lots of choices for a legendary hero besides yet another Lyn.

For the record, getting a Lucina alt would probably get the same reaction from me because even if it's been a while since her last alt, she is still yet another character who has three alts.

[SniperGYS]

Cool the new Lyn, gonna try for her.

There is green bow now... How I wish an Innes for the blue bow, but I  would love a color bow Takumi too.

For now gonna try for Lyn, specially since I couldn't get Mama Gunthra on the other banners and Surtr burned my hopes for a free one, so I'm lacking my Wind legendary :/

[XRay]

7 minutes ago, SniperGYS said:

Surtr burned my hopes for a free one, so I'm lacking my Wind legendary :/

Surtr will eventually feel the fires of pain and humiliation, not from Múspellflame, but from Reinhardt's Meisterschwert and Thunder Fists.

Send the developers Feedback asking for Gunnthrá to be revived! While you are at it, ask them for a free copy of Gunnthrá too when she gets revived! She should totally join us cause we brought her back to life ya'know. I already sent my feedback regarding reviving Gunnthrá and to stop killing our favorite characters, but I forgot to include the free Gunnthrá part and I did not want to spam them with the same feedback again and asking for a free unit at the same time.

[Poimagic]

Anyways, I’ll say it now, I don’t mind the Lyn alt at all. I would’ve been more unhappy with a Marth alt since he probably would’ve been another infantry sword unit, which would’ve been boring in my eyes

[Ice Dragon]

5 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

tradition

Because less than one year a tradition makes.

 

6 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Leif was an after thought, Reinhardt alt was the big reveal, and we get Olwen alt on top of that.

Reinhardt was "the big reveal" only because they had already revealed Leaf.

Leaf himself is currently one of the best sword infantry units in the game, ranking only under Ayra (because of Regnal Astra) and Alm (because of Double Lion).

 

15 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Yeah at first it seemed legendary heroes would be important characters to the main storyline.

Remember when we thought Tempest Trials rewards would all be alternate version characters with no non-weapon skills based on exactly one example?

Boy, did they sure fool us!

 

18 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

new hero banners would be bigger

Which is not a good thing. No one remembers the hell that was pulling for focus characters in the Blazing Shadows banner? Do we need a reminder?

Furthermore, I actually see a decent amount of posts along the lines of "I can keep saving my orbs" when a banner comes out without characters individual players are interested in. The faster characters are released, even if they're released as double 3-character banners, the fewer opportunities players will have to stockpile orbs, and the fewer orbs players will have to try for those characters.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the developers are now releasing all non-Legendary Hero banners as 3- or 4-character banners.

 

17 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Exciting events to find out who will get in next!

You say that as if getting one fewer new character in each banner somehow makes it impossible to do this.

 

26 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

but a lot more new characters would be in already

If you replace all of the standard-banner alts we've gotten this year with new characters, we'd have a whopping 6 more characters. Woo. So many.

[XRay]

16 minutes ago, Poimagic said:

Anyways, I’ll say it now, I don’t mind the Lyn alt at all. I would’ve been more unhappy with a Marth alt since he probably would’ve been another infantry sword unit, which would’ve been boring in my eyes

He does not have to be another boring sword unit though. The Hero King will automatically turn into an axe unit against blue units by wielding the Falchion by the blade and pummeling his enemies with the Falchion's pommel.

[Vince777]

1 hour ago, Kurrin said:

Ephraim. At the very least I'd like to get him so I could better complete Fire Blessing quests/actually play Blessed Fountain levels.
 

What do you mean? You do not need a Legendary Fire Hero to play the fire Blessed Fountain levels. 

[Lemmy]

8 minutes ago, XRay said:

He does not have to be another boring sword unit though. The Hero King will automatically turn into an axe unit against blue units by wielding the Falchion by the blade and pummeling his enemies with the Falchion's pommel.

why not just have him throw his tiara as a dagger weapon, it has the added bonus of not cutting off his fingers ...

[Cute Chao]

54 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

If you replace all of the standard-banner alts we've gotten this year with new characters, we'd have a whopping 6 more characters. Woo. So many.

And yet it will begin to add up. That's six of someone else's favourites that could be in the game. 

I know, I've heard all the money for costs, etc, but even so, six may not seem like a lot, but it could be. It would also create a lot more goodwill. I'm not saying it will affect the profits, and I know that's the side you're arguing, but I wouldn't do down six units just because. 

[XRay]

18 minutes ago, Lemmy said:

why not just have him throw his tiara as a dagger weapon, it has the added bonus of not cutting off his fingers ...

That is because wielding the sword by the blade and using it as a blunt weapon is a real historical technique, and here is a Wikipedia article on the subject, as well as a YouTube video by Skallagrim.

[Vince777]

I'm wondering what archers are even left to add to the game to fill the colour spots. Will they all (or nearly all) be alternate units? 

Who is the highest profile not yet introduced bow user in the game right now? ... Brigid? Louise? Shinon? Rath? 

Edited April 28, 2018 by Vince777

[Thane]

2 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Who is the highest profile not yet introduced bow user in the game right now? ... Brigid? Louise? Shinon? Rath?

Give Noire a red, dark magic bow please. 

It's pretty interesting to see the dislikes for this Legendary banner on Youtube. Not that I think it'll change much and I know it practically can't especially in the short term, but I wonder if they pay it any mind. 

[Ice Dragon]

21 minutes ago, Cute Chao said:

And yet it will begin to add up. That's six of someone else's favourites that could be in the game. 

I know, I've heard all the money for costs, etc, but even so, six may not seem like a lot, but it could be. It would also create a lot more goodwill. I'm not saying it will affect the profits, and I know that's the side you're arguing, but I wouldn't do down six units just because. 

It will add up, but nowhere near as fast as people seem to be making it out to be. At the current pace, we'll be short by 16 characters by the end of the year compared to if there were no standard-banner alts, and that's roughly 2 characters per game.

[Troykv]

6 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

I'm wondering what archers are even left to add to the game to fill the colour spots. Will they all (or nearly all) be alternate units? 

Who is the highest profile not yet introduced bow user in the game right now? ... Brigid? Louise? Shinon? Rath? 

Ah... Noire, Louise and Nina I guess?

[Cute Chao]

6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It will add up, but nowhere near as fast as people seem to be making it out to be. At the current pace, we'll be short by 16 characters by the end of the year compared to if there were no standard-banner alts, and that's roughly 2 characters per game.

Again, sixteen characters that could have been someone's favourites, and that's if they stick to the current rate. I mean, we've already had one new characters banner that was nearly fully alts (depending on how you view Grima - Hardin was clearly new, Celica and Takumi were alts). That could happen again. And sixteen characters can still make a whole lot of difference to the people whose favourites they are or who are just plain sick of alts being everywhere. 

Edited April 28, 2018 by Cute Chao

[Kaden]

15 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

I'm wondering what archers are even left to add to the game to fill the colour spots. Will they all (or nearly all) be alternate units? 

Who is the highest profile not yet introduced bow user in the game right now? ... Brigid? Louise? Shinon? Rath? 

I figured that colored archers would all be alternate units and Heroes originals while colorless archers are the "normal" archers. My reasoning is that I can't think of many archers who are heavily with an element or wield some sort of elemental bow which apparently Mulagir is according to wikia since it's known as "The Bow of the Winds". The only person to come to my mind is Takumi because of his Fujin Yumi as Fujin is a Shinto wind god. Hilariously enough, I guess possessed Takumi could work too since Skadi is a giantess and goddess associated with winter among other things and I guess whoever is possessing is associated with water as well -- I haven't played Fates yet.

Otherwise, I have no idea since I don't think any of the other personal or legendary bows are associated with an element. Maybe Mikoto as a legendary hero of water with a colored bow? I think they're going to have to make up bows and characters or just slap them into colors and basically have them be physical versions of mages which they and other colorless units are, but now they're involved in the weapon triangle.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Kaden

[TheWill]

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

The fact that they have different support options is enough of a tell that they should be considered different characters: Changing Robin's gender completely changes how they interact with others in a meaningful way, whereas changing Robin's appearance and voice does not.

I don't agree with this summation at all. I understand the semantics behind saying the Robin genders are two different characters, but ultimately they are still the exact same person. If you feel that Robin's gender impacting how she interacts with other characters is justification for considering them different characters, that's absolutely fine. You do you. But there's definitely no definitive answer to the topic and is entirely dependent on viewer interpretation.

Just as I would never consider a female Ike or male Lyn to be a "different character", or Celica possessed by Duma (I know it's not the same case as Grima, I'm only bringing it up for comparisons sake), they're all alternate versions of pre-existing characters. To say Robin has 6 versions... isn't wrong. You may not agree with it and feel that them being possessed or being different genders are justification for their alts, but I don't and probably will never see these reasons as justification for the egregious amount of alternate Robin's. 

[ShadowAlchemist]

After thinking about it, a fifth alt was definitely a bad move. (It never really bothered me before since I’m relatively new to the game, and I still only have one Lyn and she’s one of my best characters so far). As much as I’d like to have Marth Emblem, Berkut Emblem, etc, if they got loads of alts, I’d be pissed if everyone started hating them and judging me for liking them, just because of IS’ bad decisions. It’s not any of the characters’ fault that IS gives them too much exposure.

[Kurrin]

2 hours ago, Vince777 said:

What do you mean? You do not need a Legendary Fire Hero to play the fire Blessed Fountain levels. 

...

 

 

Uhhhhh, I feel stupid now. Somehow, I was under the impression that the Fountain levels required a Blessed Legendary Hero on the team. Welp, I guess I've got a few extra orbs for the banner then. :\

[Ice Dragon]

33 minutes ago, SlipperySlippy said:

You may not agree with it and feel that them being possessed or being different genders are justification for their alts, but I don't and probably will never see these reasons as justification for the egregious amount of alternate Robin's. 

Now that I'm home from work, I've done a bit more thought into where and how I draw the line between two entities being considered the same character or not, and... it's really messy. I'm working this out as I type, so apologies if it's a bit too train-of-thought.

 

My baseline I am beginning with for avatar characters is the male-female player character pairs in Pokémon. I'm going to begin by asserting that each such pair of characters is a pair of two separate characters, e.g. that Red and Leaf are different characters.

This makes obvious sense in the cases where both characters are present in the narrative, such as Brendan and May. If you choose to play as one of the pair, the other is your rival, and choosing to play as the other simply switches your roles.

And so that brings us to the mutually exclusive pairs, like Red and Leaf. What's giving me trouble is the fact that I don't see the selection of gender for Robin being any different than the selection between playing as Red or Leaf. Red and Leaf naturally feel like two separate characters despite actually being identical to each other mechanically and within the narrative of the story. And yet, male and female Robin are more different from each other than Red and Leaf are.

If I consider the two Robins to be the same character, than it necessarily follows that Red and Leaf are the same character and that Brendan and May are the same character within their role (i.e. player Brendan and player May are the same character, rival Brendan and rival May are the same character, player Brendan and rival Brendan are not the same character, etc.). This much works fine logically.

 

So now I get to Genealogy's substitute characters. All of the substitutes serve identical roles to their non-substitute versions. The mechanical differences between the substitutes and their non-substitute versions are no more pronounced than the differences between a non-substitute and the same character with a different father. In the narrative, the only differences are the characters' back stories and, presumably, their epilogues, the differences in which do not impact the narrative of the story at all. This can be contrasted with the fact that the two Robins have the same back stories; however, the Robins necessarily must have the same back story to keep the story the same.

So the problem now is that if I consider the two Robins to be the same character, I'm having trouble finding a clear-cut reason why they can be the same character while, say, Lakche and Radney are considered different characters, which I assume is how people treat them.

 

So can someone reconcile that for me? By starting the the assumption of the two Robins being the same character, what is it about the two of them that makes their relationship fundamentally different from the relationship between Genealogy's children and their corresponding substitutes?

 

1 hour ago, SlipperySlippy said:

Just as I would never consider a female Ike or male Lyn to be a "different character",

And here's the weird part. I also wouldn't consider a female Ike a different character from a male Ike. There is something fundamentally different about a non-canon genderswap of an established character from a genderswap situation where both genders are canon, determined by the choice of the audience, but I don't know what it is.

It's actually rather irksome right now to know that I can't rationalize my gut feel on something that feels like it should be capable of being rationalized.

 

13 minutes ago, ShadowAlchemist said:

As much as I’d like to have Marth Emblem, Berkut Emblem, etc, if they got loads of alts, I’d be pissed if everyone started hating them and judging me for liking them, just because of IS’ bad decisions.

It's a controversial decision, not necessarily a bad one.

To be extremely honest and blunt, I'm suspicious of the motivations of the players who are arguing against alts. They are saying "I don't like alts because they are slowing down the release of less popular characters", but what I'm hearing is "I don't like alts because they are slowing down the release of my favorite characters, some of whom happen to be less popular". I've yet to see anyone argue that alts are slowing down Macellan and Dolph's release, but I hear Flora and Astrid and Sety a lot.

I don't think anyone is seriously motivated to hate alts out of the altruism of having every character appear in the game.