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Would you trust any other developer with FE?


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2 hours ago, OakTree said:

Durability adds no strategy, but it adds to inventory balance, an earlygame Silver Weapon would be too good and too dominating if it could be used throught the entire game, but because of durability, most FE games help balance that out, in Fates meanwhile, we have stuff like the earlygame prepromote starting off with an Iron Dagger and there only being one single Killing Edge in the entire game.

I would chalk that up to necessity - given the debuffs inflicted by one when it hits, giving the first servant a silver dagger would be really nuts. And the Killing Edge mention makes me want to bring up Path of Radiance, which was not much better in that regard - you only get two killing edges in the whole game.

2 hours ago, OakTree said:

No, Birthright is a Corrinfest until it turns into a Ryomafest, even in Lunatic, all you need is two other units to be Dual Guard fodder for both of them and there, you beat the game, the EXP cut does nothing to change that. Rev also is not better about this, many players just use the royals plus Corrin and Azura and even that can be a little overkill.

I would call BS here - outside of an HP or defense boon, Corrin cannot really take many hits. Also, this goes without saying, but they cannot be everywhere at once. What's more, what about the forest level where you get Takumi? Constant debuffs and damage would likely take their toll when you have no range outside of a weak Kodachi. It does not help that katanas, like Corrin's personal weapon, drop your defenses. Nor does it that the Yato upgrades do not boost defense. How is exp not stopping lowmanning from being effective when Corrin WILL eventually stagnate (which is to say, get to a point where they're only getting 1 exp a kill) whereas the enemy improves? Because I honestly don't see how fielding, say, 5 units and dual guard fodder is helping more than fielding 13 units that can hold their own. This isn't Awakening, which had a generous exp floor.

2 hours ago, OakTree said:

There is a reason lowmanning is considered a constant problem throught the series.

I agree with this, and I think something needs to be done about it. But I think fatigue is only good for adding more problems. A "solution" that adds more, worse problems than the one it was meant to address is no solution in my book.

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On 20/05/2018 at 7:34 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I would chalk that up to necessity - given the debuffs inflicted by one when it hits, giving the first servant a silver dagger would be really nuts. And the Killing Edge mention makes me want to bring up Path of Radiance, which was not much better in that regard - you only get two killing edges in the whole game.

There is only one, and i mean one, Killing Edge the player can obtain without RNG throught the entire game, if no durability is what caused that, then i believe FE needs durability back as fast as possible.

On 20/05/2018 at 7:34 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I would call BS here - outside of an HP or defense boon, Corrin cannot really take many hits. Also, this goes without saying, but they cannot be everywhere at once. What's more, what about the forest level where you get Takumi? Constant debuffs and damage would likely take their toll when you have no range outside of a weak Kodachi. It does not help that katanas, like Corrin's personal weapon, drop your defenses. Nor does it that the Yato upgrades do not boost defense. How is exp not stopping lowmanning from being effective when Corrin WILL eventually stagnate (which is to say, get to a point where they're only getting 1 exp a kill) whereas the enemy improves? Because I honestly don't see how fielding, say, 5 units and dual guard fodder is helping more than fielding 13 units that can hold their own. This isn't Awakening, which had a generous exp floor.

Okay, you need Corrin and two or three Ninjas (Plus the eternal champion Vulnerary) until it becomes a Ryomafest, what a giant damn difference.

On 20/05/2018 at 7:34 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I agree with this, and I think something needs to be done about it. But I think fatigue is only good for adding more problems. A "solution" that adds more, worse problems than the one it was meant to address is no solution in my book.

Maybe you should try having a different perspective and separating units you like as characters and units you that are fun to use, because when you do that, Fatigue becomes little problem, you start to see it as an interesting way of making you use units you would've never used otherwise, making for a far more fun experience.

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12 hours ago, OakTree said:

There is only one, and i mean one, Killing Edge the player can obtain without RNG throught the entire game, if no durability is what caused that, then i believe FE needs durability back as fast as possible.

And go back to the days of hoarding and the Too Awesome To Use trope reigning supreme? Sounds like a massive step backwards if you ask me... just look at Awakening. I had brought this up in another thread, but I generally see effective weapons as too niche because they tend to have low uses, and in some games, can't be bought; it doesn't help their case that I could dispose of the units that they're meant to be used on by other means. Awakening might not have been one of those games, but barring merchants and spotpass shenanigans, the only shops where you could buy hammers and beast killers required you to clear chapter 25 first. For your information, Fates was a bad game for killer weapons in general (thanks to them having underwhelming might and not enough crit to make up for it; I would say that situations where a killer would be a better option than a forged iron or a steel are as rare as hen's teeth). So I would consider one killing edge to fall under "nothing of value was lost". Anyway, sure, there are some issues with no durability, but I would consider stuff like braves gathering dust in the convoy and never seeing use no better. Like I said, I would be more receptive of durability if it was anything more than a shackle that inhibits strategy... which it is not.

12 hours ago, OakTree said:

Maybe you should try having a different perspective and separating units you like as characters and units you that are fun to use, because when you do that, Fatigue becomes little problem, you start to see it as an interesting way of making you use units you would've never used otherwise, making for a far more fun experience.

Three words: No. Thank. You! I find that the units I like as characters and the ones I find fun to use tend to be the same. The only thing fatigue is good for is being a headache. And extra headaches is the last thing I need.

12 hours ago, OakTree said:

Okay, you need Corrin and two or three Ninjas (Plus the eternal champion Vulnerary) until it becomes a Ryomafest, what a giant damn difference.

Because needing to waste your turn healing constantly is a great position to be in, right? Oh, wait, no it ain't. Especially when vulneraries are rather expensive for how little they heal. Sorr-ee! Also, the ninjas have the durability of wet tissue paper.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And go back to the days of hoarding and the Too Awesome To Use trope reigning supreme? Sounds like a massive step backwards if you ask me... just look at Awakening. I had brought this up in another thread, but I generally see effective weapons as too niche because they tend to have low uses, and in some games, can't be bought; it doesn't help their case that I could dispose of the units that they're meant to be used on by other means. Awakening might not have been one of those games, but barring merchants and spotpass shenanigans, the only shops where you could buy hammers and beast killers required you to clear chapter 25 first. For your information, Fates was a bad game for killer weapons in general (thanks to them having underwhelming might and not enough crit to make up for it; I would say that situations where a killer would be a better option than a forged iron or a steel are as rare as hen's teeth). So I would consider one killing edge to fall under "nothing of value was lost". Anyway, sure, there are some issues with no durability, but I would consider stuff like braves gathering dust in the convoy and never seeing use no better. Like I said, I would be more receptive of durability if it was anything more than a shackle that inhibits strategy... which it is not.

That sounds like a problem with you learning to manage weapons. Short of things like FE6's ending, there's no point in not using them when they'd be of use other than some notion that they might be of use down the line. You shouldn't be frivolous with them, but never using them is just as much a failing on the part of the player as over-using them and running out.

Effective weapons do face issues in some games, but that's far more to do with them not actually being superior to more generalized alternatives. Ones that actually are, like the Wolf Beil, I've never actually met someone who's not new to the series and unsure of what to expect that doesn't use them quite a bit when necessary. What reason do I have to save uses of the Wolf Beil when odds are Hector will get stronger faster than his enemies and eventually not even need the effective damage to deal with armored enemies?

That said, I don't hate the idea of durability staying gone, but Fates clusterfuck of effects just turned the system more toward typical RPG combat complexity, which is the opposite of one of FE's major draws: the simplicity and intuitiveness of the combat. Yeah, it's still comparatively easy to keep track of, but you're just substituting one level of complexity for another and arguably a less easily apparent one.

Personally, 4 and Echoes had my favorite takes on the whole durability and inventory management things.

 

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Three words: No. Thank. You! I find that the units I like as characters and the ones I find fun to use tend to be the same. The only thing fatigue is good for is being a headache. And extra headaches is the last thing I need.

Are there seriously only ever 12 characters a game you like? It's not like all of your party members are going to be fatigued simultaneously and you'll be forced to use a bunch of units you hate. Even having 18 would almost certainly get you by just fine.

Edited by bottlegnomes
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Durability leads to only 1 thing: hoarding. Fates did the right thing by removing durability. They just needs to balance it. Removing Forging would go a long way towards balancing, as you can't just make an Iron weapon +7 that surpasses everything and has no drowbacks. The difference between Silver and iron will be huge then. The drawbacks also need a rework, but it's still much better then durability.

It's not like durability ever matters anyway. The only game where it really matters is RD due to limited resources. 

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5 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And go back to the days of hoarding and the Too Awesome To Use trope reigning supreme? Sounds like a massive step backwards if you ask me... just look at Awakening. I had brought this up in another thread, but I generally see effective weapons as too niche because they tend to have low uses, and in some games, can't be bought; it doesn't help their case that I could dispose of the units that they're meant to be used on by other means. Awakening might not have been one of those games, but barring merchants and spotpass shenanigans, the only shops where you could buy hammers and beast killers required you to clear chapter 25 first. For your information, Fates was a bad game for killer weapons in general (thanks to them having underwhelming might and not enough crit to make up for it; I would say that situations where a killer would be a better option than a forged iron or a steel are as rare as hen's teeth). So I would consider one killing edge to fall under "nothing of value was lost". Anyway, sure, there are some issues with no durability, but I would consider stuff like braves gathering dust in the convoy and never seeing use no better. Like I said, I would be more receptive of durability if it was anything more than a shackle that inhibits strategy... which it is not.

Again, this is a clear case of "Don't hate the game, hate the player", there is rarely, if not never a reason to hoard, players only hoard because they get overly paranoid and insecure about their weapon uses, and that's their fault, we shouldn't remove durability just because some dumb players handle the mechanic badly, should we remove the earlygame prepromotes just because new players refuse to use them even though they are often great units?

5 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Because needing to waste your turn healing constantly is a great position to be in, right? Oh, wait, no it ain't. Especially when vulneraries are rather expensive for how little they heal. Sorr-ee! Also, the ninjas have the durability of wet tissue paper.

Okay, add the earlygame butler/maid to heal too, and it's not as if ninjas being frail matters when enemy quality is so low, so yeah, you can lowman until Ryoma is recruited pretty easily, and afterwards you won't ever need any other unit besides him, and no, EXP cuts do nothing to slow him down.

2 hours ago, Shrimperor said:

Durability leads to only 1 thing: hoarding. Fates did the right thing by removing durability. They just needs to balance it. Removing Forging would go a long way towards balancing, as you can't just make an Iron weapon +7 that surpasses everything and has no drowbacks. The difference between Silver and iron will be huge then. The drawbacks also need a rework, but it's still much better then durability.

It's not like durability ever matters anyway. The only game where it really matters is RD due to limited resources. 

Anyone who hoards is a bad player who shpuldn't participate in gameplay discussion to begin with.

And durability again balances weapon availability, so even if there is no strategy involved, it still adds to the game's overall design and is thus a valuable mechanic.

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36 minutes ago, OakTree said:

Anyone who hoards is a bad player who shpuldn't participate in gameplay discussion to begin with.

Wow. Just... Wow. You seriously could not have sounded more elitist with that comment if you tried.

36 minutes ago, OakTree said:

Again, this is a clear case of "Don't hate the game, hate the player", there is rarely, if not never a reason to hoard, players only hoard because they get overly paranoid and insecure about their weapon uses, and that's their fault, we shouldn't remove durability just because some dumb players handle the mechanic badly, should we remove the earlygame prepromotes just because new players refuse to use them even though they are often great units?

Apples and oranges. That perfectly sums up this comparison. I don't really see much reason to use, say, brave weapons when my best units do not need them to wreck face. Or in games like FE7 or Sacred Stones, where enemy units are weak to the point where they're generally overkill.

3 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

Are there seriously only ever 12 characters a game you like? It's not like all of your party members are going to be fatigued simultaneously and you'll be forced to use a bunch of units you hate. Even having 18 would almost certainly get you by just fine.

That is dependent on the game. But I doubt I would be able to find even 9 characters worth liking in Jugdral.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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No. There's not many games similar to Fire Emblem and not many developers have actually made games like Fire Emblem before. I don't think any other company has the right experience with making that kind of game and other companies I'm sure would do Fire Emblem in a different way than IS to an extent. I'd rather stick with IS, I wouldn't trust another developer to actually make a good Fire Emblem game.

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45 minutes ago, OakTree said:

And durability again balances weapon availability

Does it? When i can kill everything with Iron and Steels, why should i ever use silver and waste precious resources? 

 

45 minutes ago, OakTree said:

it still adds to the game's overall design and is thus a valuable mechanic

It adds only hoarding and annoyance, since outside of FE10 you have enough money to buy whatever you need (or capturing in case of FE5). Atleast with Fates there is drawbacks with using stonger/effective weapons.

9 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

But I doubt I would be able to find even 9 characters worth liking in Jugdral.

without playing the games you can't say that.

Edited by Shrimperor
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1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

without playing the games you can't say that.

And not a single damn was given that day. Seriously, think: if I despise almost everything Jugdral as it is, what in the seven hells makes you think I'm gonna do a complete 180 assuming I gave the games a chance???

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1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

That is dependent on the game. But I doubt I would be able to find even 9 characters worth liking in Jugdral.

That seems rather baised, given that I get the sense you've interacted with about 10% of the cast, but fair enough. That said, I wasn't speaking solely In Jugdral, rather generally across the series. Generally, it only takes about a dozen units to fill deployment on any one map, and there are generally 40+ characters.

 

6 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And not a single damn was given that day. Seriously, think: if I despise almost everything Jugdral as it is, what in the seven hells makes you think I'm gonna do a complete 180 assuming I gave the games a chance???

Nothing per se, but I think the issue people are taking is that you're being rather presumptuous by saying that they are horrible without ever having given them much of a chance. Again, there's a difference between saying something sounds awful and something is awful.

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4 hours ago, OakTree said:

Okay, add the earlygame butler/maid to heal too, and it's not as if ninjas being frail matters when enemy quality is so low, so yeah, you can lowman until Ryoma is recruited pretty easily, and afterwards you won't ever need any other unit besides him, and no, EXP cuts do nothing to slow him down.

Yay for more fragile units that need to be babysat... Which cannot be done when you're low manning. In all seriousness, most of the Birthright cast is rather fragile, and the less units I have, the harder I am making it on myself because there's less units that can take a hit (which I find paramount when you cannot rely on dodging to stay alive; this isn't FE7 or Sacred Stones after all). As for Ryoma, I consider him overrated - he is one of the best units in Birthright, sure, but I do not buy into the hype that he's some god of war. I just don't see what makes him worth a unit slot when glass cannons and fragile units are already dime a dozen in Birthright... and he's just another one of the former.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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  • 4 weeks later...

I think it depends on the developer and the type of game. If it is to make a traditional fire emblem then no. But I'd like a fire emblem take made by atlus (the persona team) or even bioware (the old one) for a more medieval opera kind of thing (awakening and fates type os support but done right) .

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36 minutes ago, Vinicius Salerno said:

But I'd like a fire emblem take made by atlus (the persona team)

Considering what we got with TMS, I'd rather Atlus stay far, far away from Fire Emblem.

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On 6/18/2018 at 10:36 AM, NinjaMonkey said:

Considering what we got with TMS, I'd rather Atlus stay far, far away from Fire Emblem.

Only because they tried to do an experimental crossover that had wildly different in setting/aesthetics/worldbuilding etc, instead of crossing over with, say, Radiant Historia. If it was a straight up FE game with non-Persona/non-P-Studio people writing the plot, they'll probably be more successful. Atlus has games other than modern-day Japanese SMT or Persona...

On 6/18/2018 at 9:59 AM, Vinicius Salerno said:

I think it depends on the developer and the type of game. If it is to make a traditional fire emblem then no. But I'd like a fire emblem take made by atlus (the persona team) or even bioware (the old one) for a more medieval opera kind of thing (awakening and fates type os support but done right) .

Yeah, I'd like the medieval opera thing too.

Edited by henrymidfields
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My answer is YES. With a catch.

I would love to see the likes of Square Enix and Monolith Soft work on Fire Emblem.

However, I did say there was a catch. Square Enix, Monolith Soft, and Intelligent Systems/Nintendo MUST all work on it together. I feel if that happens, we get the storytelling prowess from all 3 of aforementioned companies, the phenomenal world building of Monolith Soft, as well as the wonderful traditional RPG elements from Square Enix. And Intelligent Systems sort of just helps where needed to keep the game feeling like, well, Fire Emblem.

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I'd be down to see it just out of curiosity. I don't really know how the game would turn out, it could be very similar to the current games, it could instead imitate and older one, it could be radically different from anything we've seen before. Or it could just be a remake, who knows. Still, I'd like to see someone else's take on the series. I'm not sure how likely or necessary that is, though, given Intelligent Systems is making good money on Fire Emblem, but Zelda wasn't exactly unprofitable when Capcom produced some games for the series.

I mean ultimately I skipped Fates/Echoes and I'm not sold on Three Houses so I really don't have much other to say on the matter than that.

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First off..no.

Saying that IS is absent for an FE game is like saying creatures and game freak are absent for a Pokemon game.

Intelligent systems has been an affiliate for Nintendo for so damn long. Heck, many staff from Nintendo moved to IS. Whatever gave you an idea that a third party dev would take over a franchise?

IS is the only dev I know that makes strategy games. And while there are many devs out there who can outclass IS talent, Nintendo would rather do it in house or handle it to someone like monolith soft to make an FE game simply because Nintendo rarely let's third parties use their IP and are very reluctant to them.

 

 

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I don't even trust IS with Fire Emblem lol. the only way they can succeed is if they faithfully remake the older Kaga games. With the newer ones I just expect that they won't have the same brilliant design and balancing that Kaga was known for (and currently is still doing with Vestaria Saga).

Basically there is no one who can make a proper Fire Emblem game besides Kaga.

Edited by bufkus
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1 hour ago, bufkus said:

I don't even trust IS with Fire Emblem lol. the only way they can succeed is if they faithfully remake the older Kaga games. With the newer ones I just expect that they won't have the same brilliant design and balancing that Kaga was known for (and currently is still doing with Vestaria Saga).

Basically there is no one who can make a proper Fire Emblem game besides Kaga.

I disagree - sure, Mystery of the Emblem was good, but "brilliant design and balancing" is a phrase that I would NOT consider the Jugdral games worthy of. And I'd rather a remake of those games actually be playable than faithful.

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2 hours ago, bufkus said:

I don't even trust IS with Fire Emblem lol. the only way they can succeed is if they faithfully remake the older Kaga games. With the newer ones I just expect that they won't have the same brilliant design and balancing that Kaga was known for (and currently is still doing with Vestaria Saga).

Basically there is no one who can make a proper Fire Emblem game besides Kaga.

So your telling me kaga created the best most "balanced games in the franchise. I find that hard to believe with a game like FE4, where each unit has their own money unlike EVERY PAST GAME, where if you don't have a horse you are automatically a low tier unit, and where it throws you a unit that can solo literally the entire first half of the game on his own, and the game that got rid of trading?! Yeah imma have to disagree with you there 

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6 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

So your telling me kaga created the best most "balanced games in the franchise. I find that hard to believe with a game like FE4, where each unit has their own money unlike EVERY PAST GAME, where if you don't have a horse you are automatically a low tier unit, and where it throws you a unit that can solo literally the entire first half of the game on his own, and the game that got rid of trading?! Yeah imma have to disagree with you there 

I give FE4 some slack in that regard because it was... let's say experimental. When Kaga's like "Fuck it, I'm going to do something different", it tends to be very... quirky and imbalanced(Gaiden and FE4). But when he sticks to the core FE experience that we now know and think of, he tends to make the games pretty balanced, and he's still doing so. The one standard FE-like game that I can think of where he fails at this with is FE1, which, you know. First try and everything.

Edited by Slumber
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4 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I give FE4 some slack in that regard because it was... let's say experimental. When Kaga's like "Fuck it, I'm going to do something different", it tends to be very... quirky and imbalanced(Gaiden and FE4). But when he sticks to the core FE experience that we now know and think of, he tends to make the games pretty balanced, and he's still doing so. The one standard FE-like game that I can think of where he fails at this with is FE1.

Alright fair enough 

I still think that IS is completely capable of doing and trying new things while keeping good game design without Kaga. One of my main problems with Kaga is that almost all of the games he made were so radically different that each game was broken in its own ways. While I applaud the guy for trying new things he took it too far. Gaiden has very low growth rates, Genealogy for the reasons above, and thracia in general has a lot of BS associated with it. Mystery was the only game that he sat down and balanced the mechanics from the previous games.

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1 minute ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

thracia in general has a lot of BS associated with it. Mystery was the only game that he sat down and balanced the mechanics from the previous games.

The thing with Thracia is that its BS tends to go both ways(Barring fog of war and warp tiles).

As much as FE5 has BS, knowing how that stuff works cuts down on a lot of the "BS". It's not like FE4 where there are just things that are inherently bad/inferior in your hands, and I'd argue(And I know quite a few people who have played FE5 a lot would also agree) that it also has the most balanced cast of characters in an FE game, gameplay-wise. Due to the mechanics of the game, just about everyone has a use, or something that makes them different in a positive way from their competition.

There are still cases where some units are better(Dagdar being a better capture bot than Marty), but even Shanam, the joke character, is your best merchant and he can save you a ton of money in the late game if you're hurting on supplies or really want good stuff for the last chunk of the game.

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