Twitch Plays Pokemon Mafia NOC(15p)(GAME OVER TOWN WINS)

[SB.]

Is that really enough to put him on the same level as Evan though?

[Athena_57]

10 hours ago, SB. said:

It's not the lack of a vote on Ice that bothers me ftr, it's the fact that you asked if you could in the first place because it looks like you're asking for permission which is really weird. You seemed fairly sure on your scumread on him beforehand and while I can get taking his newness into account the difference between the two posts still seems really jarring to me.

I'm uh... kind of confused by the start of your Evan progression. I thought your original townread on Evan came from before anyone had expressed suspicion of him? I don't see how this matches up at all. Also I don't like all of the "if I was scum" comments as a defence considering I've won a mafia game abusing them before. 

I saw he was a member of the SF mafia discord when I joined it a couple of months ago. so I just assumed he was experienced, which made me confident in the scumread. Then I was like "Wait, is he though?", which made me less certain. If I were asking for permission, I wouldn't have opened with such a hostile tone against him.

Like I said, I assumed he opened with that post and was going to follow that with a proper catchup. When he apparently made that comment in place of an actual catchup, I didn't like it anymore.

7 hours ago, Eurykins said:

Thank you for getting back to me, Athena. The Refa read here felt a little waffly though, and I find it a bit odd that you seem to compare your extent of scum read on him to other players in the game? (With your comment: "I don't think they're as scummy as some apparently do") Leaves a weird feeling to the comment, even if you end up finding him as a scum read in later posts.Mistakes/misplays happen. 

 

There's something that feels off with this post/how it's portrayed. "Personally, if I were scum with Randa, I wouldn't defend them but rather try to start an alternate wagon. Like, you know, the wagon on Evan, which you're supporting. " It's like a mix of self-meta, but also seems to either imply that Refa is doing exactly that, while wagoning off Evan? Is that what's actually happening (is that what you're seeing in Refa's gameplay regarding Evan, is what I'm asking), or was there something else you were digging at with the statements, @athena_57? I'm not sure if this post was designed to entail Refa for looking worse or not in his gameplay with how he's handling Evan.

 

Athena post feels off to me for several reasons.

1. The point against Ice Sage wrt attacking an "inactive" is kind of not true, since (Regarding the situation with Via, specifically), Evan was posting quite a bit in response and was harping at various angles during the exchange? Perhaps you may chalk him up as a more inactive player, in comparison to the other more consistently active players in the game currently, but on the same token he's already on page 2 of his ISO in sheer post quantity, as many others are already. Whether he has content to reflect the posts he has or not, however, is a different situation altogether.

2. For noting the possibility/notion that Ice's slot could be a "lost Newbie" and someone you're "leaving alone" in lieu of pursuing Randa, Ice is still #2 on your priority right behind Randa? If the Randa wagon doesn't remain supported until the end of the day phase, does this not mean you would then default to Ice Sage as your secondary choice? Or would Ice suddenly then shift to being below Evan, or the trio (Mack/Rapier/Refa)?

3. There is a LOT of self-meta being utilized for case points, as well as being projected in half-expectations of what players would probably be doing as either alignment, and that's not exactly the most stellar reasoning to excuse/validate actions in either alignment. 

4. The priority list feels off to me, especially regarding the above points. I also don't recall where the Mack (who hadn't made any posts before this post) or Rapier read came from? Why are they placed next to Refa? I've surfed your ISO, but I have yet to find anything unless I keep missing it. Please explain?

 

>Refa question
The reason I mentioned the reads of others, was sort of a reply to them. Multiple people were saying Refa's posts were scummy, I wanted to make it clear I disagreed.

>Refa/Randa question
I wouldn't classify this as self-meta, just my perspective on 'optimal gameplay' (Similar, but notably different in that this is something I expect from others) There's no real defending Randa if all the attacks are factually correct statements (about them being focused on self-preservation), so diverting the attention is in my eyes the only option a scumbuddy wanting to save them has.
The reason I brought up Refa's vote on the wagon was twofold.
- I felt iffy on Refa and could see him being scum fueling the wagon
- If Refa's town, it functions as a "Are you sure the wagon you're supporting is pure?" question.

Either way, I felt the wagon was a scum counterwagon at the time, which made me dislike Refa's vote on it, whether he's scum or not.

> Numbers

1. At the time of the vote and my comment, all Evan had was the 'catchup' and Via exchange. After that he became more active, but at the time I made this comment Evan was very much an inactive.
2. I would default to Ice Sage, and am scumreading them. The lost town thing is something in the back of my mind, not the most likely scenario, which places them below Randa.
3. Self-meta was mostly as a reply to people saying my play was similar to last two. My cases have mostly been driven by other stuff. Side note, if I'm writing "I would, ...", it's not self meta, it's just a way I tend to write/talk. If I use self-meta, I explicitly state it.
4. Mack and Rapier are amongst the inactives. I previously mentioned I felt there was scum to be found amongst them. I feel it's pretty much a coin toss, and thus they're below actual scumreads, but I am definitely not nullreading them.

7 hours ago, Baldrick said:

I think you make some good points on Athena, baa. In particular, this quote "Personally, if I were scum with Randa, I wouldn't defend them but rather try to start an alternate wagon. Like, you know, the wagon on Evan, which you're supporting. " doesn't seem genuine to me. If that's what he really thought, why would he bring up Refa and not comment on the people who actually started the counterwagon? He said earlier, I'm liking the Via-Kill exchange on page 10, both look good because of it., so shouldn't he be taking another look at that exchange?

Via and KTS weren't my scumreads, I disliked the other two people there at the time, Ice Sage and Refa. Me liking their exchange doesn't mean I agree with it, I merely felt their thought and discussion felt natural/townie.

5 hours ago, Shinori said:

Focusing on just RAD/Evan I'd like people to post why they prefer one over the other if they are currently voting them.  Personally I'd prefer Rad because Randa's play had more scum-intent behind it I feel and even though Evan's play hasn't been great, I'm getting a slight 'Weapons' vibe from him if that makes sense which makes it a pain in the ass to read.  He's definitely playing differently than last game but I don't think that's a tell in itself considering what the last game was and how play in that game devolved.  I think there's only one post form Evan that I liked overall and that was like the one big content post he made.  That is, however, more than I can say WRT Randa.

Randa also brings more associative reads to the table upon a flip I feel.  Kinda felt like this Evan wagon built pretty quickly as well and it's not really having anyone against it which is suspect to me.

I prefer RAD over Evan, because I can't help but feel Evan's wagon is a scumfueled counterwagon to save RAD. Assuming this scenario, Ice Sage looks worse as well. If Evan is town, I'd say both RAD and Ice Sage are nearly confirmed scum.

 

I'm happy where I am, voting RAD. Ice Sage and Evan remain next scumreads, in that order.

[Iris]

VOTAL BOT SIRI:
(6) Evan: Vi-astra, Killthestory, Ice Sage, Refa, Jaybee, Elemina
(4) RADicate: Athena_57, Baldrick, Eurykins, Bartozio
(2) Refa: Rapier, Shinori
(1) Kill: RADicate
(1) Ice Sage: EvanManManMan
(1) Athena_57: SB

DAY 1 ENDS IN ~6 HOURS.

[SB.]

4 hours ago, SB. said:

@Shinori post about inactives is kind of bothering me because he has a lot of people he would kill today. Also Refa hadn’t posted since I explained the read so I really don’t get what you’re going for here? Also I don’t understand what you’re getting at with Refa, why is the fact that he’s defending himself better now invalidated?

IGNORE THIS the post was so short I competely missed it on phone the first time around but the rest would still be good to have answered.

[SB.]

I’m mixed on Athena’s response to me. It’s possible that you realised the Ice push could get you into trouble between posts and so you backtracked a bit, which would explain why the tone is so different and I still think using that as a defence is scummy. However the stance on Evan makes a bit more sense now and I can kinda see why the Ice thing could affect your read overall?

Haven’t read the rest of the post because I just escaped class and honestly I’m too lazy to read wallposts on phone. @EvanManManMan should claim. I have uni work to do this afternoon but I’ll be back before deadline.

[Baldrick]

SB, I hadn't read Evan's case, I was just going off what Via said. So I don't think my read on Evan was any stronger.

RAD was on a couple of hours ago, and didn't even post. SB, you said before you were worried about Randa not posting, are you OK with letting this slot off the hook?

[SB.]

That kind of explains it but I don’t know why you would put them in your lynch prio if you hadn’t actually read them? Can you summarise your current Evan read? I’m getting kind of mixed signals here on what you think of them now.

RAD is somewhere in the US iirc with a non-degenerate sleep schedule so I can understand why they haven’t posted yet. It doesn’t make me feel better about them but I wouldn’t lynch them just for that when they prob need time to get a real catchup done.

[Baldrick]

Well, I read him soon after that, and wouldn't vote either of them without building a case first.

I think the reasoning Evan uses is alright, but I don't know how he reached his conclusion from it. I want to give him a chance of explain himself, but he hasn't been on since I woke up and there's not much time until I need to sleep.

You have a point, I don't know how busy RAD is, but I feel they should have given an update at the very least. I feel like people are defaulting to Evan just because his posts have been more recent.

[Baldrick]

*I want to give him a chance to explain himself before jumping on it

[Ice Sage]

10 hours ago, Eurykins said:

Ice Sage's opening post leaves me in a state of wanting more, I guess you could say? I can understand and agree with the vote on Evan, but the lone casing/voting of Evan feels... too easy? This could be chalked up to a first NOC gaming coming from this slot, but was Evan really the only person who initially stood out to you in a scummy manner? @Ice Sage

 

At the moment yes. There's still stuff i am unsure about, but only evan stuck out.

7 hours ago, Vi-astra said:

I can't decide if Ice Sage's Evan vote is bad or not. on initial skim I thought it was pretty bad and I don't like how he attaches to KTS and I so easily as townreads. that's been said and done. I think mostly it's because I don't know what his thought process is there. have KTS or I done anything else that reads town to you @Ice Sage? agreeing w/ someone's case doesn't mean you also have to be townreading the person(s) making the case, though it does help. HOWEVER I like that he addresses the current other viable wagon (Refa). yeah he only has one scum read but there's effort here and also here, his answers to things are short but he's answering them. I don't find it odd he thinks shinori's voteswitching is scummy I see that as more a new player thing. he has his reasons and they read fine. Evan's response (throwing away all of his other reads to jump on Ice Sage??without any self-awareness about it?) feels worse to me than Ice Sage sheeping Evan.

I don't think Eury is scum anymore but I disagree about Refa having done nothing but sheep people ??

i'm already dreading it

KTS is providing good cases, reasons and questions against others is one of the things. it reminds me of like a town leader. When it comes to you Via Nothing you said has made me think of scum. Like you said if you were scumbuddies with evan there would probably be hard bussing. You're helping out with other cases as well. Just seeing you get antagonize like that makes me think you're town also.

[Bartozio]

Sup guys, I'm back. Did a quick skim of the thread.

On 13-5-2018 at 1:37 AM, SB. said:

 

@Bartozio What do you mean by Eury would abuse being busy irl more as scum? How do you think scum!Eury would do this and why is it different to town!Eury? It feels like a kind of arbitrary read to me as it is. Also what do you mean about Refa not sharing reads again? It's late so its possible that I missed this but I don't really get what you mean at all.

 

I think scum!Eury would just post less lol. After she posted she'd barely have time, she made some posts with barely any reads in them. I think Scum!Eury would use being busy as an excuse to not post until she had some decent reads to share.

I meant Refa saying he had a gut scumread on people (think it was you and Shinori) but not pursuing it at all. I think that if he was feeling bad about you guys he'd have quite a lot to talk about, so it's weird to me he didn't. (Admittedly, he has made cases since I made that readpost though.)

On 13-5-2018 at 3:30 AM, Refa said:

 

@Bartozio You're townreading two of my scumreads, why are SB and Shinori not scum?  Nothing they've done is something I can't see them doing as scum.

I mean, I admit they could be playing like this as scum, but that's kind of a mood point cause I could see them round up half the scum teama s scum in an attempt to look good. I feel like their current actions are a lot more likely to come from town and didn't really see anything bad in their posts (I already explained what I found good about their posts in my readup). I'll have to reread them to properly respond to your cases though.

Refa acutally making cases on Shinori and SB makes me feel a bit better about him, because it seems like he actually had stuff he didn't like about them, instead of just trowing around accusations without any thought behind it. As I said, I'll have to actually read up on stuff to respond to it properly, but they seem like decent cases at first glance.

Evans case on Ice Sage looks pretty bad, since it's basicly just accusing him of not having any reads, while Evan doesn't really seem to have those himself either (apart from this case I guess). I find it a bit disturbing he didn't look into SB at all after trowing shade at him for his initial case, and came back with an easy case on Ice Sage instead.

Wouldn't mind lynching this slot tbh.

I think Ice Sage makes more sense as a vig target tbh, since his only meaningful interaction is with Evan (could say the same about Mack, but he's getting a sub).

I made this post around page 14, but then my internet died and I could only post it now. fml, but have some comments anyway.

[Percivalé]

@Bartozio how do you feel about ice sage's recent posts that aren't his Evan vote

[RADicate]

I meant to wake up earlier this morning and do a catch up post but that didnt really happen and I have to go to work. ##Vote Evan

Obvi reasons if you check votals

[Bartozio]

2 minutes ago, Vi-astra said:

@Bartozio how do you feel about ice sage's recent posts that aren't his Evan vote

Crap, did he make a post like that that's not on this page? Gonna go look for it right now!

[Shinori]

I'm here phase ends soon let me do some posting hopefully before it ends.  I meant to wake up like 2 hours ago.

[Shinori]

8 hours ago, SB. said:

 

@Shinori post about inactives is kind of bothering me because he has a lot of people he would kill today. Also Refa hadn’t posted since I explained the read so I really don’t get what you’re going for here? Also I don’t understand what you’re getting at with Refa, why is the fact that he’s defending himself better now invalidated?

MY 'post about inactives' has a list of 2 main people that I would prefer to lynch.  And me stating I'm okay with this Evan lynch.  The comment about me being okay with Ice being shot is simply because he's been my third scumread thoughout this day phase.  I commented on this a bit ago in this phase.  My priorities have looked like this:

Refa > Rad > Ice > Evan

Rapier/JB just need to post more and I want to see more out of them.  Or a mod prod or a poke or something.  How is this exactly too many people that I want to kill?

[Shinori]

Refas unvote on me made me feel slightly better of him though so maybe he's under Rad.  I'm trying to do some last minute catch ups before this phase ends.

[Percivalé]

tbh baldrick lazy was poor word choice. I don't think refa is being lazy

[Shinori]

About the refa defending himself not really making me super happy @SB. It's more or less I feel he might do that more as scum than demotivated town.

He claimed demotivated at the start of the game and I would see demotivated Refa not caring about me pushing him, especially when it's just me pushing him.

Scum refa would want to attempt to bite it in the butt and stop any pressure or stop any people looking at him early on so that the wagon doesn't actually build on him.  Because once a wagon does start building it's hard to actually get rid of it after a certain point.

[Bartozio]

@Vi-astra Done reading his posts.

Him coming in the thread townreading you, KTS and Eury is pretty null to me. You guys were pretty much consensus town I think, so it's a pretty safe read.

His gutread on Randa could be intresting for associative reads later on, but it doesn't really mean anything right now imo. Read on me is basicly saying I should post more, which is NAI.

His reasoning for finding SB town and finding Shinori odd at least had some reasoning behind it, though he dropped suspision on Shinori rather easily.

My problem with his content isn't so much that any of it is bad, but there's just not a lot that's really telling to me. Definitly don't want to lynch him before Evan or Rad right now, since those two I find actually scummy if that's why you asked.

[Jaybee]

i'm not getting off the evan train without a claim. Am alright with swapping over to Randa/RAD, the sudden swap on the Shinori read feels unnatural and sounds like a scumbuddy told him to back off on a more townread player. I don't understand what was the point of voting KTS as town either.

can the people townreading me explain why i'm being townread lmao i'm doing the exact same shit i did in sfmm5 (post once a day, be otherwise invisible)

@Ice Sage

1. Why is Eury town?

2. Who else is scum aside from Evan?

[Iris]

Apparently phase ends in 23 minutes, or something.

[Jaybee]

can the people townreading the Via/KTS exchange on p10? explain why they think it's townie also

[Athena_57]

Looking at the Evan wagon again, I like it even less. Excluding Rad's vote as it's just a not!me>me vote, it contains

- 4 of the least active people (perhaps Via less so than the others)
- KTS, who to me read like mostly (=/= only) inactive hunting
- Refa, who I'm iffy on

That's 6 people among who I expect at least 2 scum. So either

1- This is a scumwagon meant to save Randa
2- Both Evan and RAD are scum, which is wishful thinking imo
3- This is scum bussing one of their buddies instead of going for town!randa
4- My reads on the people on the wagon are terrible, there is at most 1 scum there

Could the people voting Evan tell me what they think about this? Cause in case of 2, a RAD vote is a scum vote as well, 3 is unlikely (and I myself think 4 is unlikely as well)

 

I agree Evan looks bad, but I just can't ignore the unpureness of the wagon on him, especially considering the speed it built up with

[Shinori]

I'm still not a fan of Ice and his lack of scum reads.  Apparently this is their first NoC game though so it could be newbie town not understand how to perform or it could be newbie scum not knowing how to properly fake scum reads so he's just reading a lot of people as town.

The fact that their not used to NoC is the only thing stopping me from raising them higher in my lynch pile.  I still firmly believe absurd amount of town reads while having like 1 scum read is really scummy gameplay and scum intent.