Twitch Plays Pokemon Mafia NOC(15p)(GAME OVER TOWN WINS)

[Killthestory]

17 minutes ago, SB. said:

just realised that i forgot to respond to kill earlier but i dont think i have that much to say. honestly i did not follow last game that closely because >200 pages even though i was the host, but still this shit is from trying to break out of RVS. 

can’really say anyrhing on the unmemorable front but i dont think i’ve avoided people who’ve suspected me. generally i’ve used it to get better reads on them (refa, you) and if you don’t see it that way then idk I’ve been trying to get things out of you and until now you hadn’t given me like anything to work with. also i dont think my reads are scattered except maybe today but uhh i blame alcohol for that one.

inclined to think that this is town conq because the push feels more organic reading it again and i dont think scum conq gets this frustrated because it’s not like scum!conq would need town!refa to die today. still feeling fairly confident in town!refa based on their reads and i think the way he’s been kinda demotivated makes more sense from town than scum.

don’t agree with baldrick’s refa case but i’ll let refa answer him because i should actually sleep now lol. if i come back someone please tell me to go to bed.

honestly i don't remember my past argument, but i don't think the points you addressed were apart of it.

idk, let's just lynch bart. i think that's a hit, and elemina is probably a 50/50 chance hit, too. 

[Bluedoom]

Votals

 

Bartozio(3):Athena, Sb, killthestory

Refa(2):conqueror,  baldrick

conqueror (1):refa

not voting: shinori,  eurykins, jb,  Ice sage, Bartozio, elemina

D3 ends in 54.5 hours. 

Edited May 19, 2018 by Magnificence Incarnate

[Conqueror]

Hello. Where are all the non-posters?

Looked a bit at athena's Bart case and skimmed Bart's posts a bit. Seems solid, if a bit nitpicky (ftr @athena_57 you usually don't need to quote all of someone's posts if you want to make a case on them, just picking out the main ones is fine). Willing to vote Bart. I'll look at him again before I go to sleep to see if I missed something.

Looking back at how Refa's vote on me went, I think Refa is obvscum though. I don't think suspecting me is scummy, but his push on me doesn't make any sense.

10 hours ago, Refa said:

Zzzzz, getting voted even though I'm obviously town.  Should have just played more DRv3.

Conq's case is in bad faith (if my reaction was so obviously faked, you would have mentioned it earlier, not after "thinking it over"), Baldrick's case has more of a thought process but I don't get where it says why I'm scum lol.

1) I don't genuinely buy that Refa thinks he's obvtown here. He's been a major target of suspicion ever since day 1, and the guilty gambit is the only reason several people are reading him as town. This is pretty much fake bravado.

2) THIS statement is in bad faith, because if I'd thought your reaction was so obviously faked, I'd have brought it up earlier. Refa quoting one of my posts from today and asking me why I didn't make that post yesterday is super silly, when yesterday I was sold on RAD!scum. What point are you even trying to make here?

10 hours ago, Refa said:

Conq's explanation for why he voted Randa if he thought I was guilty doesn't do it for me.  If he had to go through the ordeal of reconsidering all of his reads, then he'd have to be sure that I was scum to begin with.  

Again, this is already said in thread but it bears repeating because I'm lucky enough that the evidence is in the thread. I didn't think Refa was 100% guilty, so why is Refa harping on me for not making sure I thought he was scum? Reconsidering reads is not even remotely hard, the only hard part is making cases on people so I dunno why Refa is calling it such an ordeal.

Seriously just read the evolution of Refa's push on me today. It's super contrived.

@Refa What kill cases are you talking about? I think the only person who has really suspected KTS in thread is SB, so this ~*callout*~ to stop thunderdoming reads like you're trying to conduct an invisible symphony to stop a thunderdome that doesn't exist. I think this defense out of nowhere is REALLY fucking weird and makes me feel like Refa is trying to buddy up either KTS or SB or both. Convenient, since they're defending him.

[Conqueror]

10 hours ago, Refa said:

I don't agree with the Kill cases at all.  He's been playing very differently from his last game, where he was very reactionary.  Here, it seems like he's following his own suspicions (and I don't see why Scum!Kill would dismiss me/Ice because we're too popular lol) and there's nothing that particularly bothers me?  I'm not going to get on his case for lack of activity considering myself lol.  I also feel strongly about SB being town at this point, can explain this more if people need me too but I haven't seen anyone case him today except Kill (also, my gut reaction to the no kill was SB getting docced lol).  SB/Kill should stop thunderdoming IMO.

This is the post in question. Consider the case where Refa is town here. What exactly about this post would make SB/Kill stop suspecting each other? The logic here is super lazy too. There are reasons to find KTS town but the meta is bullshit. Last game KTS followed his own suspicions too, hell he cased YOU when no one else thought you were scum. I don't see why Scum!kill dismissing you/Ice means anything at all, why would that mean something? Likewise I agree with SB town but a defense like this might as well not be a defense at all. If you haven't seen anyone case him but kill, what's the point of even bringing this up unless you're going to engage kill to tell him why SB is town.

This entire paragraph is pretty much the definition of buddying and fake content.

[Athena_57]

Mod confirmation in, an invalid target would not result in an action failed message, which means my action failed probably through a roleblock?
Also, there was a slight mod error, my action did not just fail, it was redirected and then failed. I know who it was redirected to, but I don't think there's any point in claiming that.

 

11 hours ago, Refa said:

 

@athena_57 Why did you drop your SB case if it was bullshit?  Fair enough on lacking experience being a townie.  It's fine to state reasons that you're doubting your read on me, but it read to me like "nah, Refa could do this as town, but he's totally scum guys".  Like WTF?  I don't get how you adequately explained my issues with your lack of progression at all, please quote the exact section from your quote walls that you're referring too.  

Man, first you're like "lol, RAD is obvious scum" yesterday and say my defense is shit and today you're like "well, the ONLY reason someone wouldn't think that RAD is obvious scum is if they knew he was town" which is fucking stupid.  Why would I progress from casing the slot D1 to not being okay w/the lynch when it's up on D2 if Scum!Me was buddying with the slot?  Also, my Shinori case was hostile because I was sure that he was scum voting me (especially considering FHPOV, he should have been voting Randa).

>I 'dropped my SB case' because he wasn't too hard of a scumread to begin with. He claimed he hadn't properly read my stuff in his reply and retracted his case on me. My doubts on his slot were that case, which got explained, and the weird usage of his vote, which remains an issue. My current opinion on SB is 'townie, with one or two rough edges'. Fair enough on my read on you, I admit I've been hardcore waffling on you, I suppose this is what happens when I'm lost. You're just a really confusing slot to me.

>As for progression, this is what happened:

Evan enters thread for the first time and makes some jokes
      I think at this point this is going to get followed up by a proper catchup, feel scum would be too nervous to open their catchup like that as it would take some balls, therefore I like it.

Evan doesn't make a real catchup after that
      I'm like, "Oh, those jokes were in place of a catchup, not alongside it." This invalidates my above reason for townreading him.

If you really want me to, I can go back and find quotes on when I said this (I believe I did so at least twice)

>I don't see why you think my evolution on you<==>RAD is stupid. I felt the slot was obvscum and couldn't (still can't tbh) see how a townie looks at it and thinks it's a townie.

Before flip: I think he's obvscum. You're defending him, I don't see your defense at all and don't understand why you think he's town.
After flip: He apparently was town. I still don't understand how you noticed this, so a TMI read makes sense.

Him actually being town doesn't change I think it's weird from a town POV to townread the slot.

>I don't fully understand what you're asking with the bolded line. As in, what does you buddying the sot have to do with the progression? Please clarify.

>I don't mind your Shinori case being hostile at all, I can see town!you being hostile. What I do mind is that it looks like you're trying to hide the hostility. Town!you who doesn't care too much about his image just openly attacks Shinori. Scum!you who does care about his image does the same, but feels the need to tone down the hostility by adding these remarks. They don't make sense in the thought/speech pattern of an angry townie, they make sense in the speech pattern of a scum member worrying about their image wrt them casing a consensus town.

10 hours ago, Refa said:

Also to add to why I believed Shinori, IMO as scum he'd get one of the weaker scum members to claim a guilty on me, not do it himself.  Way better 1 for 1 trade.

I don't disagree with most of your Shinori stuff (read:I agree), but this statement is wrong in my eyes. The reason people could believe his guilty is that it matched tunnel on you. IIRC there was no-one else with you as their biggest scumread leaving day 1, so no one else who would've really copped you N1. Also, he was overall regarded as town, which made it more likely his guilty would be believed, compared to his hypothetical scumbuddies, who may have just not been believed.

 

I'd like to comment on this Conq/SB/KTS clusterfuck that's happening in depth, but it's kind of confusing partly because of SB's drunkposting. I need more time I think, but my gut tells me this is a town squabble? This will be my priority to reread if I have time later.

 

10 minutes ago, Conqueror said:

Looked a bit at athena's Bart case and skimmed Bart's posts a bit. Seems solid, if a bit nitpicky (ftr @athena_57 you usually don't need to quote all of someone's posts if you want to make a case on them, just picking out the main ones is fine). Willing to vote Bart. I'll look at him again before I go to sleep to see if I missed something.

I don't really think it's nitpicky tbh, why do you think that?  Nitpicky to me would mean something like cherrypicking quotes, whereas the TL;DR of my case is basically that the overall picture is bad.

On posting style, yeah, I get where you're coming from, the reason I did it this way is

- I wanted to cover all his posts to 'prove' there was literal zero pushing.
- Quotewalling feels like a natural way of posting to me.
- I myself hate reading posts where I constantly have to click links/ search posts people are replying to

Does this style make it hard to read? In that case I'm willing to swap ofc.

 

[Conqueror]

@athena_57 When I say nitpicky I don't mean that in a bad way since most of the analysis was good. I think more concise posts are usually better though since people are more likely to agree with your Strongest Hits than if you hit someone with the entire kitchen sink.

[Conqueror]

@Killthestory Refa was pinging you yesterday as a wolf, what changed between yesterday and today? You said he was too consensus of a read here to be scum but what if he's a wolf who got caught? Also you said he responded appropriately to you after you pushed him so I looked back at his responses to your case.

On 5/16/2018 at 7:59 PM, Refa said:

People keep on calling me out for surface level reads and it's super bullshit considering none of my reads have been so.  I had to reread the whole thread and I'm still getting called out on this, which is insane.

On 5/16/2018 at 8:13 PM, Killthestory said:

your read and subsequent vote on evan was bad, and while some of your reads have been good, they haven't come from a good place. a weird thought process that can read as tmi to me for you to suddenly flip near eod to a read you didn't mention much was super weird when a lot of your reads were good! your content has been very unintrusive, and it's looked meloow and easy to skim past if i wasn't reading specifically for you. just doesn't feel like you from last game.

On 5/17/2018 at 5:58 AM, Refa said:

This is a town reaction, I feel like scum would be more likely to stay on the sidelines considering it was a reaction test (I even told the mods "now I know how Via felt in SF3" FFS) and they would know that.

I don't really get what you're saying, though.  I voted Evan because he was the scumread I felt most comfortable voting, even though I had more issues with Randa/SB.

I dunno, why did that convince you? All he did was justify his Evan vote with pretty standard reasoning, and I don't think it's anything out of his wolfrange. Think you're being pocketed here.

 

[Conqueror]

oh my god this forum software is the worst. I lost a post for no reason at all. going for a summary this time

10 hours ago, SB. said:

just to summarise your refa scumread is because of A. his randa defence and B. having different reads, right? if i missed something im sorry, but do you think scum refa benefits from being a vote hipster and sticking out? to me it seems counterproductive to go all in on shinori when nobody wanted him lynched and it was easy town wagons for the first few days. i don’t think defending radrad would have acrually gotten him cred unless somehow the lynch was avoided. it kinda feels like you’ve muddled “this doesn’t mean he’s clear” with “this means that he’s scum” in the last few pages but im not sure if thats just because you’re annoyed or not rn.

also my opinion of refa’s scumplay isn’t low but i feel like the victim of his demotivation was moreso him not being especially hard pushing with his cases, which matches with nobody listening to him last game. i can see frustrated town refa working with the lens of “nobody will listen to me anyway” subconsciously and think that scum refa would conform more and try to play lowkey because he doesn’t benefit from extra effort. i dont think refa is aways lazy but i dont think he goes above and beyond when he doesnt think thst he needs to, or at least thats my impression of his scumgame.

will find the quote for refa in a minute (or a few, on mobile) but if you ISO bart and look for his opinion on athena with a post about conq’s case looking good iirc he said athena had a good defence right before i. it was super jarring to me so it looked like he was just posting as be read without an continuous town thought process.

my refa scumread is a combination of a bunch of factors, none of which are damning individually but add up. i don't like the way he pushes his cases (not the reads necessarily but what he chooses to focus on and push as scummy, stuff like that), i don't like the way he doesn't feel super invested in pushing the lynches he wants, i don't like his general attitude when reacting to any and all suspicion on him which I'd categorize as "whiny scum" rather than demotivated town. case in point: the way he claimed he was obvtown earlier today. I don't believe he thinks that for a second. it helps that refa has done nothing that makes me thing "oh this guy must be town" - it's how I get reads on experienced players who can't really be caught through technical play - that and associative reads. ill pull up some of his posts to talk about in a bit before i sleep, although i suspect shinori has already gone over every refa post with a fine-toothed comb.

like i said earlier i don't think him getting into a vote war with shinori is alignment indicative since shinori aggressively pursued refa and refa was countering his points. I could easily see him making the vote as town (because he thinks shinori is bullshitting scum) and as scum (because if you're already countering someone's every point on you, a vote on them is pretty natural). are you making the point here that scum can't get involved in 1v1 on the side of the game? because I've seen and been in enough of those that I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

it's not about the cred refa gets when ignoring the randa wagon, it's about him getting into a good position in terms of reads for when the randa wagon flips, or just simply refa not getting the fallout from the randa wagon. like I'm sure you've done the "lightly defend flailing townie as scum" thing before right? it's probably one of the easiest things in the world to do as scum. And the way refa defended the wagon for nebulous reasons makes me think he was scum defending randa and not town defending randa.

yeah a lot of this is "refa not town for this" rather than "refa is scum for this" since I'm responding to your posts on why you think he's town. None of them are part of the reason I think Refa is scum, but none of the reasoning you've prevented for refa being town really makes sense to be tbh.

if it's easy town wagons for the first few days then that first perfectly with hipster scum who wouldn't need to push all in on any wagon. all they need to do is not make a splash and make cases on a few people who aren't getting lynched yet so that when the game state catches up to them they can just keep pushing the same people. refa was only really hipster in his votes on d2 anyway - d1 he was pretty go with the flow.

if you think refa is lowkey and not super tryhard as scum then how would that not fit his play in this game?

 

[Conqueror]

@Ice Sage Can you explain what you find fine about Refa's explanations? I'm just wondering where you are right now since you've had only a few major suspicions every day and it's incredibly difficult to see what you're thinking or where you're going. It's nice that you're rereading but what are your preliminary thoughts?

[SB.]

My head still hurts :weary: also I don't have much time before work. Going back over some stuff from yesterday with less alcohol in my system.

Eury bothers me because her reads are super up in the air right now. She scumread a lot of people yesterday but it doesn't feel like she followed up on her suspicions  very much. Where's your priority now? It's weird because I thought most of your posts today were madposts at Shinori but some were calmer and I think it's weird that the only suspicion you've really brushed on so far is "Ice Sage where did you go", which doesn't really count anyway. 

@Conqueror I think "both town" is the most reasonable reaction because I've only seen scum go for 1v1s in desperate situations (where they're gonna get lynched anyway) or LYLO. The only non-LYLO game I rememeber this happening in was me suiciding in .hack 2 because Shinori made a game with three cops. @Shinori please don't make any more mafia games with three cops.

I do agree that the thunderdome comment was weird because imo the interaction was useful (to me, at least) so it's kinda weird to just want to cut it off without giving us a new direction? I feel like if scum!Refa wanted to go for hipster cases though he would've chosen different targets, is the point that I'm getting - not me or Shinori because we've been on the louder side and he'd probably be more scared of us catching him. I feel like Eury/Bart would have been easier to push on, although I guess that's a moot point if they're scum?

Don't have time to address other stuff in depth but while your case makes sense (as in I can see that scum!Refa could possibly make those plays), I just feel like this is town Refa on tone? Which I guess isn't a good thing to say after typing this out because of how KTS got written off last game. But I still feel like a lot of what you're pushing on him for can be explained, and even makes more sense coming from town!Refa knowing last game's circumstances.

[Conqueror]

Elemina hasn't posted since Tuesday...is that slot getting prodded or replaced or what?

@Eurykins Where are you headed for today? I don't know what your lynch priority is after the RAD lynch. I dunno why you spent so much time yelling at Shinori earlier today if you think he's town.

@Jaybee I think that's a pretty weird question and it's too open ended and ambiguous for any definitive answer. What do you think, since you brought it up?

Reading Bart reminds me why I think listposts are not useful in general and just make you look bad when half your reads are unsubstantiated. Also, the post that SB pointed out about Bartozio's athena contradiction isn't really a contradiction in context. His thought on Athena was his own, but his suspicion of Athena looks like it piggybacked off of mine. @Bartozio Why'd you change your opinion on Athena so quickly, what convinced you? What's your current opinion on Refa?

Eh, I didn't see anything in Bart's posts that would be me NOT want to lynch him. There's nothing I can specifically pick out though. The main thing would probably be no unique reads or trains of thought in terms of scum suspects although he does defend some people for being town (which is easy to do)

[Conqueror]

@SB. I've had people like scum!Prims and scum!BT 1v1 me for no real reason when I'm town (and it's not like I don't bite back!) so I completely disagree that scum can't 1v1. Especially on D1 (where Refa vs Shinori started, but ended pretty quickly) and when the townie brings the fight to them (which happened on D2 when Refa makes Shinori his top scumread again after Shinori started pushing him hard). 

Yeah I'm thinking Bart could be scum here so it would make sense if Refa didn't push hard on him (dunno about Eury). But I don't really think hipster scum really has a predilection for one target over another anyway? That's what makes them hipsters. I'm going to bring scum!Prims up as an example again because he's the easiest example I can think of and I know he does this. They just have to push someone they think they can get away with.

I can buy reading town!Refa on tone from previous days (since that's where I was leaning earlier) but I think his push today has just been super contrived to the point where I don't see this coming from town. I'll probably go through Refa's posts one more time before heading to bed.

[Conqueror]

I guess just to comment on @athena_57's case since you were wondering what I found nitpicky. I don't think stuff like Bartozio attacking Evan looks that bad tbh, a lot of people were doing similar stuff and they're not all scum - was there something about the way he approached that that you think was off? You also don't need to point out every line where Bart had filler reads or posts - you can just point out in general where he isn't saying anything of importance. It does make your case more "complete" when you quote everything but IMO the readability suffers in terms of length and formatting. Also as an aside, summarizing Bart's day 2 as "literal nothing" would probably make Bart mad and get him to tunnel you on the chance the Bart is town. I think the thing that felt the most off to me about Bart's D2 isn't his absence but how quickly he warms up to the idea of Athena scum, with reasoning similar to mine. I don't think I was that convincing? Also the way Bart makes a point Randa being possibly town so the Evan wagon isn't that scummy, but as far as I can tell he never really wavered on the Randa slot being scum? So @Bartozio I want to know what you were thinking here 

On 5/16/2018 at 2:16 PM, Bartozio said:

I'm not so much saying there's no scum on the Evan wagon, but more dissagreeing with people saying there needs to be a great amount of scum (3+) on the wagon. If Randa was town, scum had no reason to try hard and get Evan lynched either. It's also possible scum was fully intend to bus Randa and didn't find a good reasoning to switch and/or hard push Evan. Heck, maybe they were on Evan and were planning to push him like mad to save Randa, but enough town went to him on their own they didn't need to bother. I think using this reasoning to insist on lynching someone from the Evan wagon is bad and overlooking a lot of posibilities.

Basicly, I think we should lynch who we think is scummy for their play. If the consensus is that Randa/Rad is the scummiest slot, we lynch them and analyze the wagons if he flips scum (still don't think we should only lynch on the Evan wagon in this case). If we think someone outside the wagon is the scummiest, we lynch them. Same if it's someone on the wagon. We do not consolidate on someone just because he happened to be voting a scummy townie and we need to lynch someone doing that.

...

I don't dissagree with the Randa/RAD slot being scummy (which should be obvious from my vote being on them at the end of the day and my first post mentioning it). I do disagree with how scummy the rest of the wagon is. Scum can luck out sometimes, and I think Randa mostly lucked out with how bad Evan played.

I mean, I only brought it up because I thought lynching people on the Evan wagon for being scumbuddies was dumb without lynching Randa first. Why were you making such a big deal out of it?

[Baldrick]

12 hours ago, Refa said:

Why would Scum!Randa jump off of his only case?

He had other cases. As I noted in my case, you said his non-Shinori cases are lackluster.

11 hours ago, SB. said:

don’t agree with baldrick’s refa case but i’ll let refa answer him because i should actually sleep now lol. if i come back someone please tell me to go to bed.

Might as well answer me now, if you're still around.

15 hours ago, Shinori said:

http://tootsie.com/howmanylick-experiments

Still inconclusive? Too bad. I bet Refa would be smart enough to find the answer.

 

 

@Jaybee @Eurykins @Bartozio@Elemina

You've been on recently, say something.

[Conqueror]

Looking through Refa's end of D2 posts. Super dislike after how Shinori's revealed his gambit, Refa pretty much sits in the thread and hands out a bunch of townreads, but does nothing else to try and influence the game state with the day heading into the final hours and Refa still having at least one more post and still thinking the RAD lynch is bad. Where do his scumreads go from there? I assume he's still sitting on the Athena vote, but nothing is pushed. It's extremely passive.

Re: Refa's Randa defense. I'll quote what he said to me today to try and break it down.

13 hours ago, Refa said:

@Conqueror Randa's slot had decent progression on his Shinori read and when pressed by other people, his responses didn't read like scum making up excuses.  That's why I defended him on D2.  The only time the slot felt lazy to me was RAD, but even then I wasn't bothered by his posts. 

So the logic for Refa's townread was that Randa's progression on the Shinori case was good and his responses didn't read like scum making up excuses. Can't really respond to the latter but let's examine the progression that was apparently so convincing.

On 5/11/2018 at 8:06 PM, Randa said:

In terms of your content it's the same as what I outlined above, I don't really see where you get your meta on SB from. But I'm readin the lead up into your vote on Refa I just question why you don't give even a cursory explanation to why you vote Refa. Like I get that you explain this in one of your previous posts,  but your post talks about me, SB, and Athena and then you vote Refa. It make sure it difficult to read where your scum reads line up. 

I feel like overall your content seems forced, like I get that ED1 cases are almost always forced or reaches but this just seems worse than what I'm used to. Like I can understand this coming from a newer town player, but I know you've actually played is I don't feel like I can excuse this as much.

## Unvote

##Vote Shinori 

 

On 5/11/2018 at 8:13 PM, Randa said:

I haven't played on SF in a fat minute so I have no idea who's new I just know you said they've only rolled mad, which either is horrible luck or their new. So given my perspective yes it is a valid argument.

and again I literally said my actual content was going to come later. I was throwing dirt I was responding to baldrick in the vast majority of my posts. If you want to say it words without actions, I'd argue I wasn't saying that much (which again can be argued as white noise and would be a valid argument) but if I'm not saying anything substantial why should I be taking action. 

 

On 5/11/2018 at 8:32 PM, Randa said:

These are all my posts about you before my post at the top of page 5. I really don't think I'm throwing a lot of shade at you in any of these,  I see two where I'm confused and need to reread and one where I'm saying my thoughts on you are mainly gut. I don't say if I think your scummy at any point, I say I have an issue but part of that might Be on my end and then that I need to reread to check for anything scummy. I really don't see where you're coming from when you're saying I'm throwing shade.

 

On 5/12/2018 at 10:34 AM, Randa said:

No. See that's the thing I can have a different opinion on whether or not your reads are clear than you do. It doesn't mean I 'm lying just means I don't think your reads were clear relative to each other. I'm not asking you to be 100% on your scum reads, I was asking for you to explain how your reads compare to each other in terms of confidence, which I don't think was particularly clear, which is why I have an issue. Imma read the rest of whats been posted rather than just skim and get back to you on the rest.

 

On 5/12/2018 at 12:58 PM, Randa said:

1. Activity: Shinori was active and posting content as opposed to what was essentially non-content coming out of KTS. Which actually brings up a more notable point, @Killthestory why did you not just post your thoughts and reads when baldrick asked you to explain your view on the interaction between me and Shinori? Why did I need to specifically ask for you to justify your thoughts before you posted anything more than a sentence or two? Imma elaborate on my thoughts on KTS further down.

2. Expectations: I've played with Shinori before and I remember him being a good player. I have no idea who KTS is, have never played with him so I have no expectations.

I actually have a problem with this then. Like if you have a null read on me and your bothered by the pushes on me, then explain why. Do you have a scum read on anybody who's been pushing me? You mention Baldrick and SB off a gut read but mention nobody else who is voting me and don't really explain any specific parts about their cases. I get your demotivated but I feel like I expect more.

 

Here's My problem with how KTS has been playing:

1. You go on about Eury for the entire post and you don't mention anywhere that your read on Eury swings to town. The parts I bolded I feel are saying you still scum read Eury and then you just like never explain why you change to Eury is ObvTown

2. You vote Ice Sage after barely mentioning him, and you really don't give us any reason for this. Like what makes Ice Sage worse then like SB, myself, Refa, or EvanManMan. It just seems completely arbitrary. 

This is the same thing I have an issue with Shinori's Refa vote for and I don't think this is just me being confused this time or misreading something. I feel like this is so much worse than Shinori's though, because you had more to work off of.

##Unvote

##Vote: KTS

I feel confident with this for now. 

Yeah I think I posted like 5 minutes after you did cause I forgot to prepost check.

Honestly I agree with this point not gonna lie. 

So basic rundown. I'm leaning more towards a null/town reading on Shinori. I am mostly null on SB and slightly scum on Refa. I'll address Eury and Bartozio and whoever else has posted since I started writing when I get around to it.

Even after knowing Randa was town I still can't see where Randa's interaction with Shinori obviously came from a town mindset (sorry Randa). Like, first he pushes Shinori for having forced ED1 cases, fair enough. But after that Randa's thought process on Shinori is almost unreadable. In hindsight it looks like he was just confused, but I don't really see any progression of a read on Shinori here. He just suddenly dropped Shinori to harp on KTS for his vote changes. @Refa I'm having difficulty seeing how you thought this was a good progression at all. At most it's a null read because he makes no sense. This is why your Randa defense feels disingenuous.

12 hours ago, Refa said:

Why would Scum!Randa jump off of his only case?  It didn't seem to have scum motivation from me, which is why I wasn't bothered by it.

When people called him out on making fluff posts and he explained why he didn't see where they were coming from.

Because as quoted above, he jumped onto KTS where he had something more solid whereas he never had anything solid on Shinori, just gut. Why would scum Randa stay on Shinori in this position?

I can tell this discussion isn't going to go anywhere because you're just going to disagree with me, but something like that can easily come from scum? But in any case I looked back for this and I actually can't find what you're referring to. As far as I can tell, Randa knew he was making fluff posts and he understood why people were calling him out for it. There are all his posts I could pull up on the matter:

On 5/11/2018 at 8:06 PM, Randa said:

Yeah it was more of a gut read I'd say. Problem is I don't think a gut read has a lot of weight at this time. And like I said I needed to actually read the thread to try and get a more clear opinion on people. And here's the thing if I plan to actually make content I see no reason to change my vote before I actually form a solid opinion, barring extenuating circumstances of course. 

As for the last part that's not really faking activity, you can say it's faking content or creating a bunch of white noise but faking activity would more so be if I were trying to lurk without seeming like I'm lurking I guess, but I'm too egotistical too lurk tbh.

On 5/11/2018 at 8:13 PM, Randa said:

and again I literally said my actual content was going to come later. I was throwing dirt I was responding to baldrick in the vast majority of my posts. If you want to say it words without actions, I'd argue I wasn't saying that much (which again can be argued as white noise and would be a valid argument) but if I'm not saying anything substantial why should I be taking action. 

 

On 5/11/2018 at 8:32 PM, Randa said:

Now to be completely off topic and talking about the egotistical thing. Yeah no I'm an egotist 100% I don't doubt myself and act with complete confidence. I love the spot light and never shy away from being The center of attention. That is I'm pretty sure the definition of an egotist. At the same time I'm realistic about my capabilities.  Compared to most of the people who play on this site I don't think I'm particularly smart, I don't think I'm particularly good at mafia, doesn't mean I'm going into a game lacking confidence in myself. I don't know my thoughts on myself tend to be complicated. Like don't get me wrong I love myself but I know as well as anybody else my flaws.

 

On 5/12/2018 at 8:49 AM, Randa said:

Since people seem confused about this, I literally point out that nothing has happened at the point where I voted SB . The point of the vote is to try and make the game more active. I originally thought this was going to be by people discussing SB's questioning of Athena not actually leading to anything and whether people thought that was intentional, instead it wound up as people scum reading me, nothing unusual for me on any given day 1, and we actually have points to discuss. So yeah I think my vote accomplished its job.

It's all Randa admitting that he's been posting stuff but hasn't really gotten into the game. So yeah I don't see what you said you saw. I think you're justifying a read after the fact.

[Baldrick]

Read Athena's case on Bart, and I agree that he has no presence at all. He doesn't try to push anything, just sheeps the wagons on Randa and Evan. The only proactive thing he's done was grill Athena for analysing the Evan wagon, but he was also voting Rad so being so vehement about it is weird.

[Killthestory]

@Conqueror more like i don't want to take a chance in lynching refa over someone like bart

[Ice Sage]

Sorry RL has been taking up a lot of my time. I'll get back asap

[Shinori]

On 5/13/2018 at 8:57 AM, Ice Sage said:

I'm liking KTS's and Via's take on this. Reading back through I found Evan's posts going against Via pretty antagonizing. it felt like it came out of nowhere. I don't really have that much reads, but i do think KTS, Via, and Eury are town. Eury's posts read town to me imo. I don't blame KTS for voting me at all. I have been inactive.

I also don't think Refa is scum either. Him being demotivated i feel the same. feeling down myself recently so I find it hard to motivate myself to get things down too. It looks like he is trying to find reads as well.

Out of everything i feel like evan might be scum. it was pretty weird and looked wolfy. I don't see any explaination from him.

##vote Evan

1 scum read

On 5/13/2018 at 10:29 AM, Ice Sage said:

Randa: He is being defensive a lot, but at the same time he was being ganged up on. I can see him being defensive as scum, but my gut feeling just doesn't think so yet.

Shinori: Voteswaps, but he is trying to find more scum reads so i can understand that.

SB: He is putting out questions and having good answers  to others.

Bartozio: Nothing Bartozio said so far seems scum to me. I have to see more.

Randa is a town lean based on words.

I'm a town lean here.

SB is a town read

Bart is a town read

On 5/14/2018 at 9:22 AM, Ice Sage said:

At the moment yes. There's still stuff i am unsure about, but only evan stuck out.

KTS is providing good cases, reasons and questions against others is one of the things. it reminds me of like a town leader. When it comes to you Via Nothing you said has made me think of scum. Like you said if you were scumbuddies with evan there would probably be hard bussing. You're helping out with other cases as well. Just seeing you get antagonize like that makes me think you're town also.

Only evan as scum still, explains KTS town read.

On 5/14/2018 at 11:21 AM, Ice Sage said:

1. Eury is looking at info and is trying to find more reads to find scum. She has showing some good posts and logic to them.

2. For now I'm thinking Rapier because of his earlier posts talking about different time zones and Bartozio saying rapier lynched him that one game because of that too. He's been inactive though

Explains Eury town read

Wtf is that reasoning for a rapier scum read?

On 5/16/2018 at 4:08 PM, Ice Sage said:

Elemina/Mack2, and Refa. I'm suspicious of Elemina because of his former slot joining in easily on the evan vote. as JB said he gave reasons for RAD too, But went for evan. now that we know the flip it looks bad. Refa is the one im iffy about. His post did go with voting evan though it was sheeping.

1. Elemina, Refa though I'm still not fully sure, and Randa/RAD.

2. Bartozio's other posts look good. Him being defensive of refa is kinda weird, but the same could be said for me since I am still unsure myself on refa's case also. I'm holding off for now.

3. Could be, but I could also being really wrong on that.

4. RAD is one of my scumreads now. Refa is leaning there, but i need to see more. Haven't read him fully. I still don't think SB is scum, and Shinori  Hasn;t done anything suspicious imo.

5. It was pretty weird he went at via like that. I thought it looked wolfy too.

Refa is leaning on scum for me but still unsure. I can see why others think he is scummy. he hasn't posted in D2 at all and i want to see more. RAD/Randa is the one I think the most that is scum. Their posts in D1 were extremely defensive like others said, but i didn't want to vote him first because i wanted to give the benefit of the doubt. That went really bad now that we know what happened. we lost Via and Evan and I'll take the blame on it since at the time i thought evan was really scummy.

RAD, Refa and Elemina for the reasons i state above.

My gut feeling was wrong and i don't want to make the same mistake again

##Vote: RAD

Oh hey more scum reads.  Also where Ice's content would actually start to pick up, but don't get your hopes up, there's only two of this type of post.

The Refa read in this post really bothers me, it's a super on the fence read.

On 5/17/2018 at 9:55 AM, Ice Sage said:

Elemina's post was good and gave a lot of questions. I think Mack's reasoning looks bad now after the flip. he had both views as scum but i think now he might've just join the wagon.

I thought it was wolfy that he would just go after via like that. I was thinking he was trying to get a negative response from via and start a battle right there.

Not suspecting Refa atm. I think refa's vote goes along with what he was posting. townies can yeah.

I'm was with the others that he's was just being defensive right from the start. I thought evan was more scummy and i didn't want to attack rad because part of me felt like he could've been town and there was a misunderstanding so i went with that. it has nothing to do with the alignment there you're right. I'm not sure if it will be right, but i still don't another mislynch happening, though it could happen again.

Elemina because of mack's post where he was talking about both evan and randa and it looked like he joined up evan because he had more votes? refa was going with via's but that's fair. I should've you're right about that.

well shit, meant to post earlier but i passed out.

Hey the refa scum read's gone!

22 hours ago, Ice Sage said:

I'm fine with Refa after looking back at his posts. I was always unsure, but at least for now his explaining makes me feel comfortable on not lynching. When it comes to mack/elemina now I think i got it wrong. I'm really not sure anymore. i need to look at more info.

Now that Rad was also town I honestly don't know on reads. I'm going back to reread.

Wasn't around much yeah.

So Ice effectively has no reads. as of this post.

IF we go by Ice's reads posted through this list of quotes it would be something along the lines of:

Scum reading:
Elemina

Oh that's it.

Town reading:
Myself
SB
KTS
Refa
Eury

I don't see this as scum hunting. I don't see this as helping town and I feel Ice is a good lynch target.

Also during my reread I noticed this:

Quote

 

Randa: He is being defensive a lot, but at the same time he was being ganged up on. I can see him being defensive as scum, but my gut feeling just doesn't think so yet.

RAD/Randa is the one I think the most that is scum. Their posts in D1 were extremely defensive like others said, but i didn't want to vote him first because i wanted to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

First part from D1 second part from D2.  Yeah a read can change on someone but how do you use the same exact reasoning for why you are town reading them as the same reason you are scum reading them?

 

I just downloaded the ISO script so I'll ISO Bartozio/baldrick/Eury soon as well.

##Vote: Ice sage

For now.

[Refa]

16 hours ago, Conqueror said:

In a scum!Randa world, he jumped off because he was getting pressure for it, and he jumped onto kts instead. Seems pretty straightforward to me, I dont see how or why scum wouldn't jump off their only case.

And...? How is that alignment indicative at all?.

Nope. I've explained this already. I wasn't sure that you were scum at all. When I said I redid my reads, I was rethinking the game state to consider you as scum, but I didn't think it was a sure thing. But since you being scum torpedoed my previous scumpicks, I had to come up with new reads to fit. I didn't feel like posting reads just to retract them later, so I was thinking about your alignment first before I came to an decision on who to vote.

Explain why my thought process is ingenuine and I'll give you a cookie.

Because it's easier for lazy scum to make a case rather than invent a new case.

...Seriously?

If you reconsidered all of your reads, why did you vote Randa over me?  "Because they made sense as scumbuddies" But you clearly had no issue voting me even after Randa flipped town.

Yesterday, you said I was probably town.  Today, you're framing everything I did yesterday as "oh, it was actually scummy all along".  This is something scum does.  Town rereading doesn't need to completely change their stance on things unless they're genuinely out of scumreads or lost, neither of which you seem to be.

15 hours ago, Baldrick said:

I don't buy this. You said that you were demotivated because, "I put a hella lot of effort into the last game and felt like I lost through no fault of my own".  (from the 1/6 post).

If you thought Randa's lynch was bad and inevitable,  that quote doesn't fit with the detail you put into the post.

Uh...it definitely does.  I don't even get where you're seeing a discrepancy.

15 hours ago, SB. said:

inclined to think that this is town conq because the push feels more organic reading it again and i dont think scum conq gets this frustrated because it’s not like scum!conq would need town!refa to die today. still feeling fairly confident in town!refa based on their reads and i think the way he’s been kinda demotivated makes more sense from town than scum.

It's a scum push because he's not looking for scum, he's just looking for additional issues with my slot.  I really don't buy that he didn't have time to push other people considering his amount of issues with my slot, and I feel like he's reread so many issues that I have a hard time believing how he could be townreading me in the first place.

Also if Bartozio is scum, who would you be pushing as a counterwagon SB?  This doesn't implicate Conqueror, but IMO I'm the only counterwagon and scum would push me.

Responding to Page 25 now.

[Refa]

*keep tunneling, not make a case lol

[Refa]

Also didn't finish my second point but I was going to add "His responses didn't seem like scum making up shit to get by to me.".

[Killthestory]

ice sage is a good hit, too. i'd rather go bart, though.

[Conqueror]

51 minutes ago, Refa said:

Because it's easier for lazy scum to make a case rather than invent a new case.

...Seriously?

If you reconsidered all of your reads, why did you vote Randa over me?  "Because they made sense as scumbuddies" But you clearly had no issue voting me even after Randa flipped town.

Yesterday, you said I was probably town.  Today, you're framing everything I did yesterday as "oh, it was actually scummy all along".  This is something scum does.  Town rereading doesn't need to completely change their stance on things unless they're genuinely out of scumreads or lost, neither of which you seem to be.

I responded to the first few points in full more on page 25, which I assuming you're getting to now.

I reconsidered all my reads in light of you being possibly scum and I still wanted to vote Randa anyway because I thought he was, on balance scummier. Why would I switch to you right away?

I said you were null leaning town, yeah. But I'm not framing everything you did yesterday as "it was scummy all along." I've only brought certain things up because people are bringing up things they thought make you town yesterday. I didn't think they made you town yesterday and I don't think they make you town today - a lot of the things people are bringing up are NAI, and I was explaining as such.

57 minutes ago, Refa said:

Town rereading doesn't need to completely change their stance on things unless they're genuinely out of scumreads or lost, neither of which you seem to be.

Even if I were to buy the rest of your argument, this is seriously bunk. You're saying you've never ever changed reads as town and seen things in a new light as the game state changed? I call bullshit. I haven't even done a complete 180 here so this statement is laughable.

[Refa]

6 hours ago, Conqueror said:

Hello. Where are all the non-posters?

Looked a bit at athena's Bart case and skimmed Bart's posts a bit. Seems solid, if a bit nitpicky (ftr @athena_57 you usually don't need to quote all of someone's posts if you want to make a case on them, just picking out the main ones is fine). Willing to vote Bart. I'll look at him again before I go to sleep to see if I missed something.

Looking back at how Refa's vote on me went, I think Refa is obvscum though. I don't think suspecting me is scummy, but his push on me doesn't make any sense.

1) I don't genuinely buy that Refa thinks he's obvtown here. He's been a major target of suspicion ever since day 1, and the guilty gambit is the only reason several people are reading him as town. This is pretty much fake bravado.

2) THIS statement is in bad faith, because if I'd thought your reaction was so obviously faked, I'd have brought it up earlier. Refa quoting one of my posts from today and asking me why I didn't make that post yesterday is super silly, when yesterday I was sold on RAD!scum. What point are you even trying to make here?

Again, this is already said in thread but it bears repeating because I'm lucky enough that the evidence is in the thread. I didn't think Refa was 100% guilty, so why is Refa harping on me for not making sure I thought he was scum? Reconsidering reads is not even remotely hard, the only hard part is making cases on people so I dunno why Refa is calling it such an ordeal.

@Refa What kill cases are you talking about? I think the only person who has really suspected KTS in thread is SB, so this ~*callout*~ to stop thunderdoming reads like you're trying to conduct an invisible symphony to stop a thunderdome that doesn't exist. I think this defense out of nowhere is REALLY fucking weird and makes me feel like Refa is trying to buddy up either KTS or SB or both. Convenient, since they're defending him.

0) So both me and Bartozio are scum?  Do you think these are scum/scum wagons and scum just haven't pushed anything?

1) Cool.  I don't need to explain myself on this one, for now.

2) That's the point.  Why didn't you bring it up earlier?  Why did you think the reaction was okay (or not worth commenting on earlier) and what changed your mind?  You're just backpedaling hard here, and somehow expecting me to think it's perfectly natural lol.

If you were on the fence on me, it makes sense that you'd want to make sure if I was scum or not...That includes analyzing my reactions to the guilty.

Pretty sure Shinori/Ice/Baldrick had suspicions about Kill.  Anyways, my issue is that they're wasting space scumreading each other when they need to get to the scumteam of Conq/Eury/Bartozio/Elemina and they need to do it yesterday.

6 hours ago, Conqueror said:

This is the post in question. Consider the case where Refa is town here. What exactly about this post would make SB/Kill stop suspecting each other? The logic here is super lazy too. There are reasons to find KTS town but the meta is bullshit. Last game KTS followed his own suspicions too, hell he cased YOU when no one else thought you were scum. I don't see why Scum!kill dismissing you/Ice means anything at all, why would that mean something? Likewise I agree with SB town but a defense like this might as well not be a defense at all. If you haven't seen anyone case him but kill, what's the point of even bringing this up unless you're going to engage kill to tell him why SB is town.

This entire paragraph is pretty much the definition of buddying and fake content.

Kind of want to get lynched just to see how you'll justify this post when I flip LOL.

Kill tunneled me because he thought I was SK lol.  There's no reason Scum!Kill would dismiss mislynches, which is not something scum would do in this situation.  Especially Ice, why would Scum!Kill tunnel on Ice for two days but stop voting him today?  Makes no sense.  I mean, yeah I just told Kill I was pretty sure SB was town, because he's more likely to trust me over SB.  Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

Not sure where to put this but uh...what happened to your Athena read?  I legitimately think I missed something here, because you went from hard scumreading him to not and I don't remember when that happened.

6 hours ago, athena_57 said:

>As for progression, this is what happened:

Evan enters thread for the first time and makes some jokes
      I think at this point this is going to get followed up by a proper catchup, feel scum would be too nervous to open their catchup like that as it would take some balls, therefore I like it.

Evan doesn't make a real catchup after that
      I'm like, "Oh, those jokes were in place of a catchup, not alongside it." This invalidates my above reason for townreading him.

If you really want me to, I can go back and find quotes on when I said this (I believe I did so at least twice)

>I don't see why you think my evolution on you<==>RAD is stupid. I felt the slot was obvscum and couldn't (still can't tbh) see how a townie looks at it and thinks it's a townie.

Before flip: I think he's obvscum. You're defending him, I don't see your defense at all and don't understand why you think he's town.
After flip: He apparently was town. I still don't understand how you noticed this, so a TMI read makes sense.

Him actually being town doesn't change I think it's weird from a town POV to townread the slot.

>I don't fully understand what you're asking with the bolded line. As in, what does you buddying the sot have to do with the progression? Please clarify.

>I don't mind your Shinori case being hostile at all, I can see town!you being hostile. What I do mind is that it looks like you're trying to hide the hostility. Town!you who doesn't care too much about his image just openly attacks Shinori. Scum!you who does care about his image does the same, but feels the need to tone down the hostility by adding these remarks. They don't make sense in the thought/speech pattern of an angry townie, they make sense in the speech pattern of a scum member worrying about their image wrt them casing a consensus town.

I don't disagree with most of your Shinori stuff (read:I agree), but this statement is wrong in my eyes. The reason people could believe his guilty is that it matched tunnel on you. IIRC there was no-one else with you as their biggest scumread leaving day 1, so no one else who would've really copped you N1. Also, he was overall regarded as town, which made it more likely his guilty would be believed, compared to his hypothetical scumbuddies, who may have just not been believed.

Fair enough on your Evan progression.

It's frustrating for me because I'm getting scumread for being right and having to defend myself from it.  Yes, I know everyone else thought he was obvious scum but it sure didn't seem that way to me lol.

Okay, so you're saying I'm townreading a consensus scumread.  The only reason for me to do that is to make me look better, right?  The nebulous goal of towncred.  The problem is, why would I only start doing this on D2 and not on D1?  Not only would this make my Evan vote look better, it'd make me look better than if I waffled on the slot D1 and only started townreading the slot after a reread on D2.

Scum!Me wouldn't be hostile in the first place, or would be hostile for different reasoning (mad that Shinori voted me for a perceived bad case) and wouldn't need to tone it down.

Elemina could say she copped me.  If Scum!Shinori claimed a guilty on me, I flipped town, and Shinori got lynched, it'd fuck over the scumteam.  I'm not that good of a player (especially in this game) that scum needs to potentially sack Shinori to get rid of me.

6 hours ago, Conqueror said:

oh my god this forum software is the worst. I lost a post for no reason at all. going for a summary this time

my refa scumread is a combination of a bunch of factors, none of which are damning individually but add up. i don't like the way he pushes his cases (not the reads necessarily but what he chooses to focus on and push as scummy, stuff like that), i don't like the way he doesn't feel super invested in pushing the lynches he wants, i don't like his general attitude when reacting to any and all suspicion on him which I'd categorize as "whiny scum" rather than demotivated town. case in point: the way he claimed he was obvtown earlier today. I don't believe he thinks that for a second. it helps that refa has done nothing that makes me thing "oh this guy must be town" - it's how I get reads on experienced players who can't really be caught through technical play - that and associative reads. ill pull up some of his posts to talk about in a bit before i sleep, although i suspect shinori has already gone over every refa post with a fine-toothed comb.

it's not about the cred refa gets when ignoring the randa wagon, it's about him getting into a good position in terms of reads for when the randa wagon flips, or just simply refa not getting the fallout from the randa wagon. like I'm sure you've done the "lightly defend flailing townie as scum" thing before right? it's probably one of the easiest things in the world to do as scum. And the way refa defended the wagon for nebulous reasons makes me think he was scum defending randa and not town defending randa.

1) This just seems like "oh, well I don't like the way Refa is playing, so he's scum".  Why are these scummy?

2) Get off my dick, the Randa wagon would have zero fallout because literally everyone was scumreading the slot.  Case in point, today.  Literally no one is being scumread for being on the Randa wagon.  There's literally zero reason for Scum!Me to avoid it and make a light defense (if I was sure that he was town, then I could easily have hard defended him, done nothing to prevent the lynch, looked better today) and you're literally saying "well, Scum!Refa could have done this" without explaining why it's more likely to come from Scum!Me.

5 hours ago, Conqueror said:

@SB. I've had people like scum!Prims and scum!BT 1v1 me for no real reason when I'm town (and it's not like I don't bite back!) so I completely disagree that scum can't 1v1. Especially on D1 (where Refa vs Shinori started, but ended pretty quickly) and when the townie brings the fight to them (which happened on D2 when Refa makes Shinori his top scumread again after Shinori started pushing him hard). 

None of these people are me though.  I actually did push an obvious town in my last scum game, but that was only after all of my lynch options were exhausted on the previous night.

4 hours ago, Baldrick said:

He had other cases. As I noted in my case, you said his non-Shinori cases are lackluster.

His only substantial one.

3 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Read Athena's case on Bart, and I agree that he has no presence at all. He doesn't try to push anything, just sheeps the wagons on Randa and Evan. The only proactive thing he's done was grill Athena for analysing the Evan wagon, but he was also voting Rad so being so vehement about it is weird.

TBH, I wouldn't vote Bartozio over lacking presence because he gets called out for that shit literally every game and flips town.  What makes him make more sense as scum to me is that his pushes seem very conformed and he doesn't really go anywhere with them.  Also the contradiction SB pointed out in his Athena read was weird as fuck.

I don't think I have it in me to read another wallpost about how I'm scum.  I'll do it later.

5 minutes ago, Killthestory said:

ice sage is a good hit, too. i'd rather go bart, though.

Why the change of read?