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Magnificence Incarnate

Twitch Plays Pokemon Mafia NOC(15p)(GAME OVER TOWN WINS)

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3 minutes ago, SB. said:

 

@athena_57 Is KTS scummy? The rest of your post is agreeable but I’m not sure it you think he’s scummy or not.

No. From what I understood from him/Omega last game, he rarely explains himself as either town or scum. I'm interested in his thought process however.

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11 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Elaborate.

 

Randa, disregarding meta/posting style/etc., do you have any problem with the actual logic Shinori used to vote Refa, or to vote SB?

I don't think I can disregard meta when talking about Shinori's logic. I think I mentioned it earlier but I have a friend I play mafia and secret hitler with IRL. Dude is super chill outside the game, bu when somebody new is playing with us he abuses the crap out of their inexperience and unfamiliarity with the system. Which is fine, but we all understand this and are able to differentiate the ways he picks new players apart. Anyways going back to Shinori's argument my experience tells me that a player does it consistently or not at all.

11 hours ago, Killthestory said:

ice sage eurykins and randa +however many wolves would be left is what i'm sitting at

 

9 hours ago, Killthestory said:

sheeping isn't the same as agreeing with someone. i agree with their read, but my reasons are my own. 

can you elaborate on your reads or at the very least the reason for your reads. Like I got no issue if you have your own reason for scum reading me and aren't just sheeping shinori or baldrick, but I'd rather here what the reasons are.

6 hours ago, SB. said:

I'm iffy on Randa's Shinori vote (I don't think the reasoning is very strong) and I was sort of under the impression that he'd done more to figure things out beforehand but upon reexamination it looks more like justifying new stances than forward thinking. I thought the Shinori->Refa vote was odd at first too, but then I remembered that Shinori had made comments about Refa earlier and I think it's a little odd that Randa didn't catch that when he was apparently rereading. Does this skew your read on Shinori at all? I'm confused because it feels like you went horribly off-topic in your defence.

I did catch that, acknowledge it and explained my problem with the vote regardless

12 hours ago, Randa said:

In terms of your content it's the same as what I outlined above, I don't really see where you get your meta on SB from. But I'm readin the lead up into your vote on Refa I just question why you don't give even a cursory explanation to why you vote Refa. Like I get that you explain this in one of your previous posts,  but your post talks about me, SB, and Athena and then you vote Refa. It make sure it difficult to read where your scum reads line up. 

But to elaborate on this the problem I have is that the vote now blurs what Shinori's scum reads are. Like he's talking about other people and explaining his thoughts on them, but then doesn't really follow any of that up. Like even just giving a quick run down of who he thinks is scummiest, or saying where everybody lines up relative to other reads and it makes the whole thing seem forced to me. 

3 hours ago, Bartozio said:

Can you explain what you think your vote on SB accomplished again? Since I think he didn't post between you voting him and you saying your vote did it's work.

 

17 hours ago, Randa said:

Come on guys somethings got to happen it's day or the games gonna be boring as hell 1 I blame all of this on SB 

##Unvote

##Vote: SB

Since people seem confused about this, I literally point out that nothing has happened at the point where I voted SB . The point of the vote is to try and make the game more active. I originally thought this was going to be by people discussing SB's questioning of Athena not actually leading to anything and whether people thought that was intentional, instead it wound up as people scum reading me, nothing unusual for me on any given day 1, and we actually have points to discuss. So yeah I think my vote accomplished its job.

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with eurykins, they make a lot of tmi reads and are waffling between a lot of wagons. "oh well, i don't really know what to make of this wagon here, but i don't like it." 10 times over. it's why i asked them if they had any scumreads due to the fact that this whole play here is just wolfy as fuck. no scumreads, heavy tmi reads, barely any REAL content or pushes, and nothing to indicate that they're town in this world. like, i don't understand if this is a purely player thing because i feel like wolves would also make a conscious effort to push SOMEONE,  but that just strikes me as over the top and very weird for the current gamestate as it stands. you have 7 pages to read. i'm almost absolutely sure if you tried hard enough, you could at least make SOME reads.  for example, here they make a lot of comments saying "this person is null, but WOW, this is weird for them!" it's a whole lot of shading, zero real thought process, and no concrete reads being made that reek of a wolf trying to look like they're solving without actually giving town anything to work with. 

however, later, they gave what they thought was ample reasoning for this, and i wasn't convinced either. they claim that there not being anything interesting to note or motivating to make them solve plus being tired (which i totally understand that reason) gives them zero reads. that's just not how reads work. when a townie reads something over, they go, "wow, that really didn't rub me the right way!" when a wolf reads something over, they go, "what's the best way to make it so i don't die today?" eurykins feels like the latter, and i think it's a good place to start from.

not altogether feeling sb, either. he makes weird pushes in places i'd like to think we'd mindmeld since sb seemed to have a strong mind for mafia being a host last game i played, but here he just doesn't pay attention to anything that makes a scumread good. he initially hits athena for which seems useless to me as athena is town to, again which i won't go into the read too much, while athena is attempting to pressure bartozio and wasn't even nervous to begin with? like, they're sort of taking scenarios and crafting narratives around them rather than actually solving, and it's very awkward. after jumping off an athena scumread suddenly without much progression in between it, he makes posts like these.

honestly, i don't find anything wrong specifically with the posts. he's asking questions that are related to the game and progress the gamestate accordingly with good answers becoming meaningful to the question asked. yet, it just rubs me the wrong way. he's not actually committing to a serious read, similar to why i was pushing eurykins above, but he doesn't push a read while also simultaneously coming off as manipulative and voting someone he doesn't even refer to in the post. his questions are good, but the timing of them feels like what you guys would call gas lighting. he keeps an athena scumread open and then makes a ??? read on refa that i'm not sure how he really got to that read through whatever thoughts he's cooking up. the post here, too is similar to what i was describing in the above post.

re: shinori v randa. yes, whoever asked, the vote from randa onto shinori was pretty bad in itself, but i'm waffling on the read. i'm townreading shinori right now, to lengths i won't discuss, and i found randa sort of scummy earlier with their appeasement and explaining "there isn't so much to go off right now" which is just wrong and might be making me biased. however, i think randa!wolf would be more self conscious about a vote there after being pushed by shinori, and they've expressed doubt over shinori already. that isn't to say some of their arguments against each other have been disingenuous, even from shinori who i'm townreading, along with the cross vote just makes it feel like an icky interaction to look into later. as far as it stands, i'm leaving it alone. i think both are making good and bad posts, and i sort of just want to see where it goes.

as for lurky players i don't altogether like in terms of how i'm reading them v, i don't like refa or ice sage just lurking and making half committed comments to the game while people are in the middle of pushing each other. refa i think i have every reason for wanting to expect more from because, well, they played a very good town game last time i played with them, and here they're laying low and just very nothing. not strong yet. as for ice sage, his entrance was the textbook entrance for a scum player trying to lay low with a simple jokepost before moving into slanking. that read is sorta strong simply because of the entrance and the absolutely wolfy nature of it. 

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Just want to point out one thing you said throughout the post, remember the first 2/3 pages or however many pages is signup/confirmation, so I wouldn't say we had a lot to go off of for a while.

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2 minutes ago, Killthestory said:

i just put links into my post, and they embedded like that lol. 

ok I thought its was one of the new things added in a site update or something.

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1 minute ago, Randa said:

Just want to point out one thing you said throughout the post, remember the first 2/3 pages or however many pages is signup/confirmation, so I wouldn't say we had a lot to go off of for a while.

yeah, that's fair, but there's at the very least 4 or 5 pages for people to look at and make proper posts on. 

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true. I think that becomes more of an issue with people who still haven't produced content tho.

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36 minutes ago, Randa said:

But to elaborate on this the problem I have is that the vote now blurs what Shinori's scum reads are. Like he's talking about other people and explaining his thoughts on them, but then doesn't really follow any of that up. Like even just giving a quick run down of who he thinks is scummiest, or saying where everybody lines up relative to other reads and it makes the whole thing seem forced to me. 

Wat?

I scum read sb, with an FoS on Refa early on, this has evidence on me voting SB while questioning Refa about his weak sheep vote; speaking of which Refa needs to come back.

I then stated I felt a bit better about SB so I dropped my vote on him and moved it to Refa who hadn't responded to me yet.

I then voted you, because I'm obviously scum reading you at this point in time, and since refa has yet to respond or do anything my read on him hasn't really changed from; I want answers, this sheep was bad.

?????????????????????????

I don't even understand this.  I've been very clear with my who I'm scum reading/who I'm pressing so far in this game.  The only thing you can state that I wasn't clear on was my Athena read because I felt weird about their response to SB when I read their tone differently than they had stated.  My scum reads have not been blurred and have been very clear based on who I've voted.

Also the way you word this entire paragraph here implies that I should be 100% set in my scum reads and I should already have more when it's barely even a day in the game phase.

This is a scummy way to push me and isn't actually looking for scum intent. You are blatantly lying saying that my scum reads are blurred and further making it worse by stating at this point in time in the game I should already have a list of people who are scummy and a list of people who aren't.

If you want some sort of 'list'.

Randa > Refa since it's still not even 5 pages into the game as of yet.

Like are you really serious with this mentality of a push on me?  Should I go grab the entire player list and already have some sort of read of every single player as of right now?  Cause you for sure don't either.  In fact this is fairly hypocritical because I don't think you've stated a scum read on ANYONE except for me at this point in time really.

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I don't know if I like how defensive Bartozio seemed during RVS. He voted both both people who had voted him (Athena and I) and made up excuses (which is ok, it's RVS after all) for voting them back.

I also don't know if I like SB's post where he gets slight scum vibes from Athena because the latter had asked him if it was a serious question (in a phase where people are acting silly and fishing for reads). It's a fine vote if intended to fish for reads, but kind of flimsy and too convenient if he actually meant that gave him scumvibes. I was going to write more here but then my browser derped and I lost like 5 lines so screw it, so the tl;dr version is that yeah, his case on Athena seems to be based on contrived premises, he didn't address other players who were also "shitposting" (also, Athena did post his read on Bartozio, so saying he isn't contributing is wrong), I don't really see how his explanation shows us that Athena went farther than Bartozio on their back and forth etc. I agree with Shinori's case.

I also agree that Refa sheeping SB's vote felt unjustified. He didn't provide a proper reasoning for feeling that SB's case made sense, especially since he stated before that he was getting 'white noise' from Athena and Bartozio's back and forths, so how did he suddenly feel confident about SB's vote?

 

thinking without eating is hard, brb

 

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Uhh I've only read up to page 5 but I'll continue when I get back from lunch. Maybe something happened that made Refa super Town, but what do I know? So, for now:

Unvote

##Vote: Refa

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Really dislike Randa's catch-up post was only about defending themselves.

Shinori's response is good imo, especially the calling out on hypocrisy part, which I agree with.

Kill's post is good, Eury case is fine, though @Killthestory, did you get to my question yet? Your read appears to have evolved, but I'm curious:

- Why did you think it was TvS at the time, who did you feel was more likely scum and why didn't you elaborate on this?

- Why did you think it was SvS later on? I couldn't follow that at all

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2 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

 Why did you think it was TvS at the time, who did you feel was more likely scum and why didn't you elaborate on this?

cross voting and disingenuous arguments against each other.

2 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

Why did you think it was SvS later on? I couldn't follow that at all

11 hours ago, Killthestory said:

with shinori as in shinori and i agree in opinion. 

i talked about this where i didn't mean SvS. i mean we just agreed. 

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4 minutes ago, Killthestory said:

i talked about this where i didn't mean SvS. i mean we just agreed. 

Ah, right, my bad. I didn't realize the "with shinori as in shinori and i agree in opinion." post was referring to the "actually i just think randa is mafia with shinori lul"-post. Despite the two of them being posted right after eachother

 

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41 minutes ago, Randa said:

I did catch that, acknowledge it and explained my problem with the vote regardless

Oh, I missed that part. My bad.

That being said, I don't think that Shinori's reads have been unclear at all because his posts have a lot of depth to them that explain his thought process and I don't think his priorities have been strange either. I've blankvoted someone who I'd previously cased before as town out of laziness so I can definitely get it lol.

What makes KTS different to Shinori? I don't understand why you would treat KTS' Ice/Eury/Randa comment so... nicely I guess, when you're scumreading Shinori for unclear priorities when KTS would be infinitely more guilty of that. It seems inconsistent to me.

@Killthestory Fwiw I'm bothering a lot of people with questions because in the last game I played I struggled to get reads and what I had mostly sucked so I'm trying to give myself more information to work with early. I unvoted Athena for Randa because I feel like Randa's vote on Shinori was weak and I feel like his attachment to defending his RVS actions is weird, I thought he would have just dropped it by this point so it reads as weirdly defensive. I didn't actually have a reason to drop the suspicion on Athena though until his last post where I liked how he answered my question.

I get your Eury suspicion but don't really agree because I felt similarly last game about them iirc and they were town, and I think Eury being confused by Shinori playing differently(?) makes sense because it's Eury. I understand enough of her thoughts even if she isn't pushing strongly rn that I'm not worried about her.

@Rapier Athena only stated their opinion Bart because I asked them to so I didn't see that as an attempt to be productive on his own, and also I explained why Athena's case was different. Is your comment on Bart serious? I don't get why you think he would feel scared of RVS votes.

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15 minutes ago, Rapier said:

Uhh I've only read up to page 5 but I'll continue when I get back from lunch. Maybe something happened that made Refa super Town, but what do I know? So, for now:

Unvote

##Vote: Refa

I'm definitely town. =)

I'm not busy or anything, I've just been pretty demotivated.  Posting is hard.  Someone (Eury) asked me if I sheeped SB to pressure Randa, and that's half true.  It was for pressure, but I felt like SB's case was valid even if I didn't feel strongly about it myself.

@Killthestory What are your thoughts on Randa?  You're like the only person who's made substantive cases on other people, so I'm curious what your thoughts are there.

Baldrick/SB bother me on gut, something about their Randa push.  Not sure about Randa though, I didn't read any of his posts.

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57 minutes ago, Shinori said:

Wat?

I scum read sb, with an FoS on Refa early on, this has evidence on me voting SB while questioning Refa about his weak sheep vote; speaking of which Refa needs to come back.

I then stated I felt a bit better about SB so I dropped my vote on him and moved it to Refa who hadn't responded to me yet.

I then voted you, because I'm obviously scum reading you at this point in time, and since refa has yet to respond or do anything my read on him hasn't really changed from; I want answers, this sheep was bad.

?????????????????????????

I don't even understand this.  I've been very clear with my who I'm scum reading/who I'm pressing so far in this game.  The only thing you can state that I wasn't clear on was my Athena read because I felt weird about their response to SB when I read their tone differently than they had stated.  My scum reads have not been blurred and have been very clear based on who I've voted.

Also the way you word this entire paragraph here implies that I should be 100% set in my scum reads and I should already have more when it's barely even a day in the game phase.

This is a scummy way to push me and isn't actually looking for scum intent. You are blatantly lying saying that my scum reads are blurred and further making it worse by stating at this point in time in the game I should already have a list of people who are scummy and a list of people who aren't.

If you want some sort of 'list'.

Randa > Refa since it's still not even 5 pages into the game as of yet.

Like are you really serious with this mentality of a push on me?  Should I go grab the entire player list and already have some sort of read of every single player as of right now?  Cause you for sure don't either.  In fact this is fairly hypocritical because I don't think you've stated a scum read on ANYONE except for me at this point in time really.

No. See that's the thing I can have a different opinion on whether or not your reads are clear than you do. It doesn't mean I 'm lying just means I don't think your reads were clear relative to each other. I'm not asking you to be 100% on your scum reads, I was asking for you to explain how your reads compare to each other in terms of confidence, which I don't think was particularly clear, which is why I have an issue. Imma read the rest of whats been posted rather than just skim and get back to you on the rest.

29 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

Really dislike Randa's catch-up post was only about defending themselves.

Shinori's response is good imo, especially the calling out on hypocrisy part, which I agree with.

Kill's post is good, Eury case is fine, though @Killthestory, did you get to my question yet? Your read appears to have evolved, but I'm curious:

- Why did you think it was TvS at the time, who did you feel was more likely scum and why didn't you elaborate on this?

- Why did you think it was SvS later on? I couldn't follow that at all

To be fair most of what was posted while i slept was about me iirc.

6 minutes ago, Refa said:

Not sure about Randa though, I didn't read any of his posts.

Sounds about right. I don't even blame you for it given some of the games I've played in with you. That being said tell me why I'm scum and not just me.

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I'll only be here for about an hour or two today, so skimmed through the thread. Gonna be re-reading to post some thoughts/hopefully more clarified reads.  However, on a side note:

1 hour ago, Killthestory said:

with eurykins, they make a lot of tmi reads and are waffling between a lot of wagons. "oh well, i don't really know what to make of this wagon here, but i don't like it." 10 times over. it's why i asked them if they had any scumreads due to the fact that this whole play here is just wolfy as fuck. no scumreads, heavy tmi reads, barely any REAL content or pushes, and nothing to indicate that they're town in this world. like, i don't understand if this is a purely player thing because i feel like wolves would also make a conscious effort to push SOMEONE,  but that just strikes me as over the top and very weird for the current gamestate as it stands. you have 7 pages to read. i'm almost absolutely sure if you tried hard enough, you could at least make SOME reads.  for example, here they make a lot of comments saying "this person is null, but WOW, this is weird for them!" it's a whole lot of shading, zero real thought process, and no concrete reads being made that reek of a wolf trying to look like they're solving without actually giving town anything to work with.  

...What??? There was only one case/"wagon" at the time, and that was SB's case on Athena?????? How is that me bouncing/waffling between wagons, when only one remotely existed at the time that I was voting? I don't even understand this logic.

Underlined: YOU DO REALIZE THAT MY POST WAS MADE ON PAGE 5 RIGHT? And that I already responded towards the SB case on Athena on page 4, which meant that there was very little else occurring at the time of interest/me posting? I'm not sure how I was supposed to have "7 pages to read" when that would've literally been impossible at the time...

I'm sorry null reads exist a lot in ED1? I'm generally not able to pull any strong town reads or scum reads during the first 24hrs of the gamephase. Maybe that's just me personally, but I don't exactly work like that. Also, I also asked questions towards the people I wanted to for more clarifications so I could attempt to get better reads on them. Hence the @ notions in my post to make sure they got pinged for it.

*Also regarding Shinori specifically, I have had multiple games in which I either gut read him one way or another, but I had a difficult time in explaining WHY via in-game content. (IE. Last game, I actually moreso scum read him than town, but because he wasn't doing anything scummy D1, I had no IN-GAME reason/means to logically label him as scum. And because I was pretty sure he was, saying he was aloud when everyone else thought he was town just makes my PoV/casing look odd as fuck and plausible means for me being shot on scum side to remove someone actually suspecting a majority town read legitimately.) So now I'm being a little more open with my gut vibes, if it'll actually help any. 

Also this is mildly hypocritical as well expecting me to have "some" reads at the point of my post when most other players didn't during that time. Oddly picking of me and my posts, especially since I already stated the disinterest of not much happening in the thread at the time not really pinging me much.

Anyways, off to re-read the rest of the thread.

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*One case that was being super loud, is a better way of wording the first part. I saw one post regarding SB and/or Randa, but those did not seem very loud when I was initially making the post on Page 5.

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28 minutes ago, SB. said:

What makes KTS different to Shinori? I don't understand why you would treat KTS' Ice/Eury/Randa comment so... nicely I guess, when you're scumreading Shinori for unclear priorities when KTS would be infinitely more guilty of that. It seems inconsistent to me.

how? my intentions and thought process are already pretty out there in the game thread right now. i'm not trying anything especially crazy this game, so this is another one of those sort of weird comments that have been irking me all game regarding your alignment. 

30 minutes ago, SB. said:

Fwiw I'm bothering a lot of people with questions because in the last game I played I struggled to get reads and what I had mostly sucked so I'm trying to give myself more information to work with early. I unvoted Athena for Randa because I feel like Randa's vote on Shinori was weak and I feel like his attachment to defending his RVS actions is weird, I thought he would have just dropped it by this point so it reads as weirdly defensive. I didn't actually have a reason to drop the suspicion on Athena though until his last post where I liked how he answered my question.

questions in themselves aren't bad. it's the phrasing and timing of such, especially in the early game, that generally bothered me. i'm mostly fine with the interaction with randa however and find my scumread to be located in your interactions with athena after hosting a game in which she feels completely different here. what exactly was your full thought process there, and if you've already stated it, you can go ahead and quote it or tell me to go find it lol. i don't want to make you repeat yourself, i just sort of want to understand the gamestate. 

20 minutes ago, Refa said:

What are your thoughts on Randa?  You're like the only person who's made substantive cases on other people, so I'm curious what your thoughts are there.

at first, i didn't really like his play from a purely game perspective as in i thought a lot of what he was saying was wolf motivated and not exactly helping the town cooperate and solve the game. with time though, i felt his abrupt behavior and going against what people considered norms for mafia made me waffle on the read. i actually like him voting shinori after initially getting pressured with shinori because i think he doesn't care about his image. i'd feel in his position i'd be a lot more calculated and searching for ways to push mislynches while also evading townies who wanted him dead, i.e., shinori. instead of evading or trying to discredit and increase his image in the eyes of others, he directly confronts it in an albeit weird way but one that sort of tells of being a townie. 

 

going to take a whole different post to respond to eurykins. 

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@Randa I meant, I literally don't have a read on your slot despite being bothered by the pushes on you.

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10 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

...What??? There was only one case/"wagon" at the time, and that was SB's case on Athena?????? How is that me bouncing/waffling between wagons, when only one remotely existed at the time that I was voting? I don't even understand this logic.

i don't really think this is the case lol.

Still don't see SB's case against Athena. Nothing Athena did directly was noted with scum intent IMO, and the fact that it was still within RVS timing makes the criticism of "Not really scum hunting" applicable to most of the player base at that time. 

Refa ez sheeping of SB's case is null, since Refa seems to excel at sheeping cases in general. What does bother me though is his asking of myself, Randa, and Evan to comment on said SB  case when I didn't even see much contribution from his own slot sans 1 question and "Ok sheeping" response thereafter? 

> Assuming at this point that Refa was just moving to apply more pressure on the first case rendered to encourage moving the rest of the player base out of RVS, but not sure? Can you confirm or deny, @Refa? Anything else on the other players so far since the SB case?

Why is Shinori posting (mini)wall posts before I do so this game? 

Shinori feels really loud with his activity so far this game already. My  gut read on his slot is already making a :huh: currently, because it's pretty rare for me to see him to be THIS loud this EARLY in the day phase, even as town!nori.

regardless of if these were wagons or not,  you waffled on a lot of reads here. i poorly articulated my thoughts by describing them as wagons, but the initial point stands that you're sort of tmi while also simultaneously not committing to reads and not making any concrete pushes. comes off as a lot of manipulative shading that i don't really find the greatest in the world to look at. like, i want to challenge you to figure out who you find to be the likeliest scum instead of saying, "well, he could do this, but HE COULD ALSO DO THIS." doubting yourself on reads makes me doubt you on your reads, and when i doubt you on your reads, i doubt you on your alignment. i like not to be doubtful in mafia games. :)

18 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

Underlined: YOU DO REALIZE THAT MY POST WAS MADE ON PAGE 5 RIGHT? And that I already responded towards the SB case on Athena on page 4, which meant that there was very little else occurring at the time of interest/me posting? I'm not sure how I was supposed to have "7 pages to read" when that would've literally been impossible at the time...

it was more of a blanket statement, but it doesn't come across that way when there's few pages. i was aware that there wasn't 7 pages when you were posting at the time, but at the same time, i'm also aware there was still content to look into and formulate reads upon instead of coasting in the background and giving the image that you're gamesolving when you're not. 

19 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

I'm sorry null reads exist a lot in ED1? I'm generally not able to pull any strong town reads or scum reads during the first 24hrs of the gamephase. Maybe that's just me personally, but I don't exactly work like that. Also, I also asked questions towards the people I wanted to for more clarifications so I could attempt to get better reads on them. Hence the @ notions in my post to make sure they got pinged for it.

can you show me direct examples of this within your town meta? 

19 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

Also this is mildly hypocritical as well expecting me to have "some" reads at the point of my post when most other players didn't during that time. Oddly picking of me and my posts, especially since I already stated the disinterest of not much happening in the thread at the time not really pinging me much.

i also dislike this self awareness. scum typically have more thoughts on their image and how they look to other people, so him just stating that he realizes it doesn't look good on him gives the implication that he's been paying attention to how he's looked with the rest of his posts as well.

yet... ##vote Ice Sage

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I want to state one thing because I feel that this is slightly important WRT Randa/myself.

Randa's vote on me came in the middle of a very big post that focused at me.  It was also posted very shortly after my post voting him.

With this in mind I think he was already working on his post/already had his vote on me in his post when I voted him.

Therefore I fill that @Killthestory's reasoning for saying that it seems he doesn't care about his image (Cause scum wouldn't just vote the person who voted you generally because they are wary of image) isn't as big of an argument.  I don't feel his vote was OMGUS and I basically feel we actually voted each other at about the same time.

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47 minutes ago, Refa said:

I'm definitely town. =)

I'm not busy or anything, I've just been pretty demotivated.  Posting is hard.  Someone (Eury) asked me if I sheeped SB to pressure Randa, and that's half true.  It was for pressure, but I felt like SB's case was valid even if I didn't feel strongly about it myself.

@Killthestory What are your thoughts on Randa?  You're like the only person who's made substantive cases on other people, so I'm curious what your thoughts are there.

Baldrick/SB bother me on gut, something about their Randa push.  Not sure about Randa though, I didn't read any of his posts.

Bolded doesn't make sense.  I assume you mean to pressure Athena cause that's who you're vote is on.  That's who you sheeped SB no and that's who you're still sitting on now.  What about SB's case was valid to you WRT Athena? I asked these questions before and you have yet to answer them.  When you stated you felt it as white noise and then suddenly you felt that SB's case was valid enough to sheep I want to hear reasonings for it.

Not reading Randa's posts yet disliking Randa push.  Attacking people for pushing someone based on 'gut' while not actually providing reasons as to why they are actually scummy while also not reading or commenting on the person they are pushing.  This is a classic chainsaw defense and this combined with Refa's earlier sheep vote makes him stay right at my #2 for scum reads at the moment.

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