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Voting Gauntlet: Heroes and Legends!


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Voting Gauntlet: Heroes and Legends!  

165 members have voted

  1. 1. Whom are you going to support?

    • Alfonse, Prince of Askr
    • Sharena, Princess of Askr
    • Anna, Commander
    • Fjorm, Princess of Ice
    • Ryoma, Supreme Samurai
    • Gunnthrá, Voice of Dreams
    • Robin, Fell Vessel
    • Ike, Vanguard Legend

This poll is closed to new votes

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  • Poll closed on 06/07/2018 at 05:00 AM

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6 minutes ago, Lemmy said:

 

Don't repeat giving everyone a free 5 star unit?

It’s the way they did it: Show of V!Ike as the next Legendary Hero and immediately after that show the unit voting thing with him being basically the poster boy for it. 

 

@Anacybele...The two Ikes are literally the same person with less than 5 years of difference between each other. This isn’t the case of the avatar characters like Robin and Corrin that each gender is different enough for them to get treated as different characters. 

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Let me interrupt the never ending circle argument for a second

I am at the end of my rope with the Ike ally’s but this is probably my favorite thing that has happened so far this gauntlet. 

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29 minutes ago, Motendra said:

OR, new alternative: some peeps don't like the idea of how "overhyped" or "shoved down our throats" Ike has been, via IS's apparent special treatment given only to him, at that time, as the first non-OC legendary hero to suddenly spring out of nowhere and effectively steal the event

To be fair; that's what was asked of them. They have NOT given Ike any special treatment themselves. His Rd alternative was voted 5th so he was bound to appear and they gave him the laziest treatment from all the legendary heroes.

Edited by Skylorella Con
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6 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

...The two Ikes are literally the same person with less than 5 years of difference between each other. This isn’t the case of the avatar characters like Robin and Corrin that each gender is different enough for them to get treated as different characters. 

When they're both considered Grima and are Grima though, that's different.

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27 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

It’s the way they did it: Show of V!Ike as the next Legendary Hero and immediately after that show the unit voting thing with him being basically the poster boy for it. 

 

@Anacybele...The two Ikes are literally the same person with less than 5 years of difference between each other. This isn’t the case of the avatar characters like Robin and Corrin that each gender is different enough for them to get treated as different characters. 

Exactly thank you....

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20 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

When they're both considered Grima and are Grima though, that's different.

M!Grima is still classified as a M!Robin variant, same with F!Grima classified as a F!Robin variant. 

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3 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

M!Grima is still classified as a M!Robin variant, same with F!Grima classified as a F!Robin variant. 

Still both Grima Robin to me, and they function pretty much the same aside from their color and movement type. So personally, I consider this one a potential repeat winner.

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9 hours ago, ZeManaphy said:

5559303656. My lead is B!Tharja. I can't send a request because I'm in Tempest Trials, but I would prefer something not Ninian, simply because I had two the other round. 

Alrighty, I'll try Brave Lucina (+spd/-res, +6), or I can also use Fjorm (+res/-spd, +5). I'm guessing you're running into Falchion a bunch and Ninian can't do a whole ton to help against that

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22 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

When they're both considered Grima and are Grima though, that's different.

I've already made my case for the problem with male and female Robin earlier in a different thread:

On 4/27/2018 at 9:24 PM, Ice Dragon said:
On 4/27/2018 at 7:58 PM, SlipperySlippy said:

You may not agree with it and feel that them being possessed or being different genders are justification for their alts, but I don't and probably will never see these reasons as justification for the egregious amount of alternate Robin's. 

Now that I'm home from work, I've done a bit more thought into where and how I draw the line between two entities being considered the same character or not, and... it's really messy. I'm working this out as I type, so apologies if it's a bit too train-of-thought.

 

My baseline I am beginning with for avatar characters is the male-female player character pairs in Pokémon. I'm going to begin by asserting that each such pair of characters is a pair of two separate characters, e.g. that Red and Leaf are different characters.

This makes obvious sense in the cases where both characters are present in the narrative, such as Brendan and May. If you choose to play as one of the pair, the other is your rival, and choosing to play as the other simply switches your roles.

And so that brings us to the mutually exclusive pairs, like Red and Leaf. What's giving me trouble is the fact that I don't see the selection of gender for Robin being any different than the selection between playing as Red or Leaf. Red and Leaf naturally feel like two separate characters despite actually being identical to each other mechanically and within the narrative of the story. And yet, male and female Robin are more different from each other than Red and Leaf are.

If I consider the two Robins to be the same character, than it necessarily follows that Red and Leaf are the same character and that Brendan and May are the same character within their role (i.e. player Brendan and player May are the same character, rival Brendan and rival May are the same character, player Brendan and rival Brendan are not the same character, etc.). This much works fine logically.

 

So now I get to Genealogy's substitute characters. All of the substitutes serve identical roles to their non-substitute versions. The mechanical differences between the substitutes and their non-substitute versions are no more pronounced than the differences between a non-substitute and the same character with a different father. In the narrative, the only differences are the characters' back stories and, presumably, their epilogues, the differences in which do not impact the narrative of the story at all. This can be contrasted with the fact that the two Robins have the same back stories; however, the Robins necessarily must have the same back story to keep the story the same.

So the problem now is that if I consider the two Robins to be the same character, I'm having trouble finding a clear-cut reason why they can be the same character while, say, Lakche and Radney are considered different characters, which I assume is how people treat them.

 

So can someone reconcile that for me? By starting the the assumption of the two Robins being the same character, what is it about the two of them that makes their relationship fundamentally different from the relationship between Genealogy's children and their corresponding substitutes?

 

On 4/27/2018 at 7:58 PM, SlipperySlippy said:

Just as I would never consider a female Ike or male Lyn to be a "different character",

And here's the weird part. I also wouldn't consider a female Ike a different character from a male Ike. There is something fundamentally different about a non-canon genderswap of an established character from a genderswap situation where both genders are canon, determined by the choice of the audience, but I don't know what it is.

It's actually rather irksome right now to know that I can't rationalize my gut feel on something that feels like it should be capable of being rationalized.

I had a few questions from that post that went unanswered, but as far as I got:

  • If you consider male and female Robin to be the same character, you absolutely must also consider player-controlled Brendan and May (Pokémon (Omega) Ruby and (Alpha) Sapphire) and Sun and Moon (Pokémon (Ultra) Sun and (Ultra) Moon) as the same character as each other (within the pair). In all three cases, the choice of the characters' genders does not have any effect on the narrative or on gameplay whether or not they have the same name.
  • If you consider male and female Robin to be the same character, what is it about them that make them the same character, but the Genealogy substitutes to be different characters as their non-substitute counterparts? They serve the same purpose in the narrative and gameplay, and the only real differences are their backstories.
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Eh. In the first CYL gauntlet, Ike was Ike. Can't beat Ike. And this was the "more popular" version of Ike in the gauntlet, too. When over half the gauntlet is made up of red sword units on foot, it's okay to be a red sword infantry unit.

RD!Ike is an infantry sword in a gauntlet with a flying kinshi prince, a mounted blizzard-throwing princess who can't sit on her horse right, and the first colorless dragon added who happens to fly. RD!Ike is in a gauntlet with units who are much more interesting than an infantry sword (sorry Alfonse), and f!Grima is especially powerful. So yeah, I think that RD!Ike can still be a more popular character than f!Grima, but still lose a voting gauntlet because he's a much more boring unit type. M!Grima and f!Grima are obscenely powerful as units and therefore appealing as units. Character ... is more up-in-the-air. (Personally, I am not a fan lol.)

Edited by Sunwoo
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Not to sound too rude, but I'll be frank. People always find a reason to complain if things don't go their way or aren't what they quite hoped for. If Tharja won, we'd have people complain about *insert the stereotypical fan service manipulating people criticism*. If Axezura then there'd be criticism for votes being wasted on a uninteresting character (that's one example, not my opinion) just because she's kinda hot. If Hector then people shittalking Hector fanboys because only 10-year olds like him (not my opinion, just an example). People complain about how Ike was showed down our throats? And no one mentions that fan service of certain characters was being showed down our throats for "choose a hero" in the same argument (would be an argument I'd see be mentioned if some of the more fanservicey characters had won)?

People diss him because he won. The same thing would have happened if another character had won.

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33 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I've already made my case for the problem with male and female Robin earlier in a different thread:

I had a few questions from that post that went unanswered, but as far as I got:

  • If you consider male and female Robin to be the same character, you absolutely must also consider player-controlled Brendan and May (Pokémon (Omega) Ruby and (Alpha) Sapphire) and Sun and Moon (Pokémon (Ultra) Sun and (Ultra) Moon) as the same character as each other (within the pair). In all three cases, the choice of the characters' genders does not have any effect on the narrative or on gameplay whether or not they have the same name.
  • If you consider male and female Robin to be the same character, what is it about them that make them the same character, but the Genealogy substitutes to be different characters as their non-substitute counterparts? They serve the same purpose in the narrative and gameplay, and the only real differences are their backstories.

Those characters aren’t the same because they have different names, and thus are counterparts. Brendan and May also play a supporting role in their games. In the case of Robin and Corrin, there considered the same character because they share the same name and have exactly the same role. The only difference is a gender swap.

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4 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Eh. In the first CYL gauntlet, Ike was Ike. Can't beat Ike. And this was the "more popular" version of Ike in the gauntlet, too. When over half the gauntlet is made up of red sword units on foot, it's okay to be a red sword infantry unit.

RD!Ike is an infantry sword in a gauntlet with a flying kinshi prince, a mounted blizzard-throwing princess who can't sit on her horse right, and the first colorless dragon added who happens to fly. RD!Ike is in a gauntlet with units who are much more interesting than an infantry sword (sorry Alfonse), and f!Grima is especially powerful. So yeah, I think that RD!Ike can still be a more popular character than f!Grima, but still lose a voting gauntlet because he's a much more boring unit type. M!Grima and f!Grima are obscenely powerful as units and therefore appealing as units. Character ... is more up-in-the-air. (Personally, I am not a fan lol.)

I agree that Robin's advantage here is how cool a unit she is. If this were regular Female Robin, she'd be eatin dirt

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38 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I've already made my case for the problem with male and female Robin earlier in a different thread:

I had a few questions from that post that went unanswered, but as far as I got:

  • If you consider male and female Robin to be the same character, you absolutely must also consider player-controlled Brendan and May (Pokémon (Omega) Ruby and (Alpha) Sapphire) and Sun and Moon (Pokémon (Ultra) Sun and (Ultra) Moon) as the same character as each other (within the pair). In all three cases, the choice of the characters' genders does not have any effect on the narrative or on gameplay whether or not they have the same name.
  • If you consider male and female Robin to be the same character, what is it about them that make them the same character, but the Genealogy substitutes to be different characters as their non-substitute counterparts? They serve the same purpose in the narrative and gameplay, and the only real differences are their backstories.

Thing is, I'm talking more about Grima, not Robin. Both are Grima, just in different bodies. That's how I see it. Brendan and May aren't being possessed by a single identity or anything of the such.

Edited by Anacybele
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1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

Wow, a lot of power, that's SO interesting. :/

You're looking at it wrongly. It's hype. Let me give you an example:

For a lot of people, fire is generally considered to be bad ass. Anyone who happens to have some sort of pyrokinesis then becomes bad ass by association. Roy for example, who doesn't have an international appearance barring Smash & [initially] being a Marth clone, has a sword that lights on fire and shoots flames. Ergo Roy = bad ass on a basic design/aesthetic level that his Smash incarnation capitalizes on.

The same can be applied to Ryoma: a bad ass samurai warrior prince with a lightning katana. Add that concept with ample and/or meaningful screen time of being awesome and any character can be an instant favorite on a casual level

It's not rocket science and doesn't need much thought put into it; only a casual level of personal appeal. If basic personal appeal isn't enough for you or isn't within your own tastes, then that's you're own problem, not the character, said character's writing, nor the people who like 'em.

1 hour ago, Skylorella Con said:

To be fair; that's what was asked of them. They have NOT given Ike any special treatment themselves. His Rd alternative was voted 5th so he was bound to appear and they gave him the laziest treatment from all the legendary heroes.

"Ike, the strongest of heroes". Ike, who also apparently crossed between worlds before it was even a thing and sired a descendant whose sole existence seems to be an extension of Ike, himself.

At the time prior, there were only two legendary heroes and both of them were OCs, leading many to believe that all of them would be OCs. Then suddenly Ike joins the legendary club, when he could have just been a regular alt, like we were expected to believe he'd be, with only a matter of time for him to show up. This is what I mean by special distinction. Again, at the time, and especially when the one most deserving of legendary status for having an actual tangible legacy [Marth] didn't. Keyword at the time.

Not like A Hero Rises ever really mattered to me anyway, as I didn't even vote. Twas only how I saw the backlash for him winning

Edited by Motendra
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3 minutes ago, Motendra said:

At the time prior, there were only two legendary heroes and both of them were OCs, leading many to believe that all of them would be OCs. Then suddenly Ike joins the legendary club, when he could have just been a regular alt, like we were expected to believe he'd be, with only a matter of time for him to show up. This is what I mean by special distinction. Again, at the time, and especially when the one most deserving of legendary status for having an actual tangible legacy [Marth] didn't. Keyword at the time.

Not like A Hero Rises ever really mattered to me anyway, as I didn't even vote. Twas only how I saw the backlash for him winning

Thing is, RD Ike still made some sense at the time.

He was the most popular character in CYL 1 not yet in the game.

He had the earth affinity in his games, and that week was an earth week.

He is treated as a legendary hero already at the end of RD and in Awakening.

Don't get me wrong, I think Marth should've been a legendary hero already too, honestly. Before Lyn, before Grima Robin, before Ryoma even, and I love Ryoma. And also, I think people took too much stock in the idea that legendaries would only be OCs. IS never said or promised that they would or wouldn't be just OCs. There was always a possibility of them being already established characters.

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5 minutes ago, Nowi's Husband said:

I believe Ike qualifies as a legendary hero by the end of RD.

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I don't know how this Post-Credits Ending's name... But I like to name it "The Legend of the Blue Flames Hero"...

 

I was sure if we would ended up getting actual FE characters as Legendary Heroes, Vanguard Ike would be one of them... regardless of what would be the actual focus with the Legendary Heroes.

Edited by Troykv
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22 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Thing is, RD Ike still made some sense at the time.

He was the most popular character in CYL 1 not yet in the game.

He had the earth affinity in his games, and that week was an earth week.

He is treated as a legendary hero already at the end of RD and in Awakening.

Don't get me wrong, I think Marth should've been a legendary hero already too, honestly. Before Lyn, before Grima Robin, before Ryoma even, and I love Ryoma. And also, I think people took too much stock in the idea that legendaries would only be OCs. IS never said or promised that they would or wouldn't be just OCs. There was always a possibility of them being already established characters.

Aye, don't me wrong either. I'm not saying his win wasn't deserved nor that he doesn't deserve legendary status. Every lord has grounds to be a legendary, only that the timing was reeeaaally convenient for him to win A Hero Rises, considering how desirable legendary heroes are, along with him being the first non-OC legend and released seemingly right before the event even began. Coincidence much? No one can say for sure, but the evidence is there which can suggest that outcome

Edited by Motendra
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4 minutes ago, Motendra said:

Aye, don't me wrong either. I'm not saying his win wasn't deserved nor that he doesn't deserve legendary status. Every lord has grounds to be a legendary, only that the timing was reeeaaally convenient for him to win, considering how desirable legendary heroes are, along with him being the first non-OC legend and released seemingly right before the event even began. Coincidence much? No one can say for sure, but the evidence is there which can suggest that outcome

Yeah, that I'll give you. You're right. He was the newest unit at the time and a very popular character. He wouldn't have won if he'd been released much sooner or if it had been, say, Grima Robin as the legendary at the time instead of him. Heck, I bet Ryoma would've won if it'd been him too. Hot new legendary is something that would've always won in that kind of position.

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51 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

who can't sit on her horse right

She sits side-saddle, which is the correct way to sit on a horse when you are wearing a long skirt without split legs.

 

45 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

Those characters aren’t the same because they have different names, and thus are counterparts. Brendan and May also play a supporting role in their games. In the case of Robin and Corrin, there considered the same character because they share the same name and have exactly the same role. The only difference is a gender swap.

Avatar characters can have whatever name the player wants them to have. You also especially cannot argue that Sun and Moon have different names from each other when both "Sun" and "Moon" are fan names used for convenience (so that they don't have to be referred to as "the male protagonist of Sun/Moon" and "the female protagonist of Sun/Moon") due to the fact that they do not have official canon names.

 

45 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

Brendan and May also play a supporting role in their games.

If you consider player-controlled Brendan and player-controlled May as the same character, then rival Brendan is decidedly not the same character as player-controlled Brendan, and rival May is decidedly not the same character as player-controlled May.

If player-controlled Brendan and player-controlled May are considered different characters with the exact same role and backstory, then why can it not be argued that male Robin and female Robin are different characters with the exact same role and backstory who also happen to share a name?

I hate to be cliche and quote Shakespeare, but in no truer words than these, "What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other word would smell as sweet." In the same way that one thing called by a different name is not different, two things called by the same name are not necessarily the same. A name can be meaningful in telling us something about the person who created the name, but ultimately, it is but a label.

 

45 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

and thus are counterparts.

If two counterparts with the exact same role and function cannot exist simultaneously, what makes them two different entities instead of one entity with two different appearances?

 

44 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Thing is, I'm talking more about Grima, not Robin. Both are Grima, just in different bodies. That's how I see it. Brendan and May aren't being possessed by a single identity or anything of the such.

And that's the other problem with the two fallen Robins. They are both possessed by the same entity. There's really no way to argue against that the one in control of the bodies is the same entity between the two, but the physical vessel that a puppeteer uses is significant as it serves as a limitation to the possessor's actions and as an interface by which they interact with others and the world.

 

If we pull a Tucker and make a chimera out of Eliwood and Hector, is it an Eliwood alt, a Hector alt, both, or neither? If we make a chimera of Eliwood and his horse, does Eliwood get his name stamped on his name tag? Should the monster of Victor Frankenstein be treated as the individuals he was composed of instead of as an entity of his own?

 

I have a lot of questions and very few answers.

Considering male Robin and female Robin to be the same characters opens up too many questions that considering them to be different is a much simpler path to follow. Things do not need to be complicated when a simple solution is sufficient.

Edited by Ice Dragon
Missed a word
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2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

And that's the other problem with the two fallen Robins. They are both possessed by the same entity. There's really no way to argue that the one in control of the bodies is the same entity between the two, but the physical vessel that a puppeteer uses is significant as it serves as a limitation to the possessor's actions and as an interface by which they interact with others and the world.

 

If we pull a Tucker and make a chimera out of Eliwood and Hector, is it an Eliwood alt, a Hector alt, both, or neither? If we make a chimera of Eliwood and his horse, does Eliwood get his name stamped on his name tag? Should the monster of Victor Frankenstein be treated as the individuals he was composed of instead of as an entity of his own?

 

I have a lot of questions and very few answers.

Considering male Robin and female Robin to be the same characters opens up too many questions that considering them to be different is a much simpler path to follow. Things do not need to be complicated when a simple solution is sufficient.

Hmm. Yeah, I can see all of that. I guess one can look at it either way then, really.

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3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

She sits side-saddle, which is the correct way to sit on a horse when you are wearing a long skirt without split legs.

Oh, I know, it's just a joke-reference to what my friend calls her.

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