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Jotari

Julius and Ishtar, creepy or sweet?

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How do you interpret Julius' relationship with Ishtar? Is it his redeeming quality that shows he has some compassion left in him and hasn't been entirely taken over by Loptyr? Or is it Loptyr being a possessive and abusive boyfriend who just wanted to continue his blood line? Or perhaps somewhere in between. I've seen people express opinions both ways in the past.

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I think it's just supposed to show that he once was a genuinely good guy and that Lopto is the only reason he is the way he is now. It also helps show the inner conflict of Ishtar as she struggles against the right path of justice, or the obviously less righteous path of staying with the ones she loves despite their evils.

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I'm on the creepy camp. Most of how I view the two comes from their versions in Heroes, where Julius acts like a brat on the playground, wanting to step on bugs and kill kids. Ishtar does not raise her voice and loving the guy, I find puzzling. 

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1 hour ago, Jingle Jangle said:

I'm on the creepy camp. Most of how I view the two comes from their versions in Heroes, where Julius acts like a brat on the playground, wanting to step on bugs and kill kids. Ishtar does not raise her voice and loving the guy, I find puzzling. 

"Some time before the Liberation War, Ishtar and the Imperial Prince Julius of Grannvale fell in love with each other. Her mother was very pleased with this relationship, as she wished to benefit from their union. After Julius received the Book of Loptous, he murdered his mother and tried to kill his sister, but his love for Ishtar never changed. Despite knowing what happened to him, she remained loyal to him and continued to love him. However, once he began performing the child hunts, she became shocked and attempted to convince him to stop. After Julius ignored her protests, Ishtar began to work with Emperor Arvis to secretly free the captured children." (fewiki)

so yeah it is suppose to be fucked up, and sortta plays into ishtars motivation of love and loyalty (and grief to an extent) driving her actions and preventing her from joining the liberation armies side, even though she has perfectly valid reasons and motivation to do so.

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3 hours ago, NobodiePichu said:

 driving her actions and preventing her from joining the liberation armies side, even though she has perfectly valid reasons and motivation to do so.

It probably would be difficult to join Seliph's army regardless considering they killed both her parents and brother. 

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4 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

It probably would be difficult to join Seliph's army regardless considering they killed both her parents and brother. 

Indeed, one of the most interesting things about Ishtar as a Camus is that, while not quite showing abject hatred,, she displays a very real desire to destroy the player, even though she's nominally a good person. Not only is she on to play Julius' first to murder game, but she specifically requests to be fielded in the final map while Julius wants to bench her for her own safety. It's another theme with Brian and Scipio in the final chapter, who fight just to defend their home and avenge their fallen family members. Somehow Jugdral manages to portray the most morally grey conflict despite having the most over the top evil villains in charge.

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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Indeed, one of the most interesting things about Ishtar as a Camus is that, while not quite showing abject hatred,, she displays a very real desire to destroy the player, even though she's nominally a good person. Not only is she on to play Julius' first to murder game, but she specifically requests to be fielded in the final map while Julius wants to bench her for her own safety. It's another theme with Brian and Scipio in the final chapter, who fight just to defend their home and avenge their fallen family members. Somehow Jugdral manages to portray the most morally grey conflict despite having the most over the top evil villains in charge.

If somehow they add a Chalphy noble who still loyal to the empire to fight us in the remake.

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7 minutes ago, hanhnn said:

If somehow they add a Chalphy noble who still loyal to the empire to fight us in the remake.

Yeah, despite being our protagonist's home land, Chalphy is actually hugely underdeveloped as a place. Edda is the only place that lacks more known characters. Not sure how you'd fit more into the plot though as Chalphy serves as Alvis big climactic boss battle. They'd need to be deployed in Chapter 10 as a field boss or something. Also not sure how you'd fit it into the family tree, a cousin of Sigurd's, or a cousin's child. Or maybe a younger child of Byron's (and hopefully some info on who Byron's wife was, since she's completely unmentioned in all the games, interviews and development notes to my knowledge).

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48 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, despite being our protagonist's home land, Chalphy is actually hugely underdeveloped as a place. Edda is the only place that lacks more known characters. Not sure how you'd fit more into the plot though as Chalphy serves as Alvis big climactic boss battle. They'd need to be deployed in Chapter 10 as a field boss or something. Also not sure how you'd fit it into the family tree, a cousin of Sigurd's, or a cousin's child. Or maybe a younger child of Byron's (and hopefully some info on who Byron's wife was, since she's completely unmentioned in all the games, interviews and development notes to my knowledge).

What about Oifey's father (Well, anything along those lines)? Considering he's a Chalphy, there's another possible link and one who'd give Oifey some lategame scenes considering Lewety takes the last chapter for himself.

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I think it’s both. Ishtar in a way is dependent on Julius. By the end of the game, she lost her father, mother, brother, her bodyguard. Julius is all she has left. 

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1 hour ago, Dayni said:

What about Oifey's father (Well, anything along those lines)? Considering he's a Chalphy, there's another possible link and one who'd give Oifey some lategame scenes considering Lewety takes the last chapter for himself.

Oifey's father would probably be only a few years older than Alvis, so that could work really well if he became a trusted companion of Alvis over the years following his lords betrayal and son's disappearance.

Edited by Jotari

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I'm definitely in the creepy camp, and Thracia seems to imply an emotionally abusive relationship between them. Personally, I don't believe that Ishtar is actually in love with the guy. They don't really have any chemistry, at least on Ishtar's half of the relationship. He's literally orchestrating the child hunts that Ishtar and her family find utterly reprehensible (except for her mom, she's relishes it because... evil). Hell, it felt like Ishtar had more tender feelings than Reinhardt, which is why Julius hates the guy so much. It seems like she's being forced into a relationship with Julius by her mother as a power grab. Personally, I think this adds more tragedy to her tale, as she's only doing these horrible things because she is forced to, and it's really her only way to protect her loved ones like Reinhardt and various children, and fails at it. Otherwise she's another in a line of Camuses (how would you say Camus as a plural while using the correct pronunciation? Somebody please help) that make bad choices in their continued allegiance (though Ishtar has pretty good reason to hate the liberation army, but her reason didn't stop Lex, Azel, Tailtyu, Tinny, or Olwen).

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1 hour ago, AlphaZero said:

I'm definitely in the creepy camp, and Thracia seems to imply an emotionally abusive relationship between them. Personally, I don't believe that Ishtar is actually in love with the guy. They don't really have any chemistry, at least on Ishtar's half of the relationship. He's literally orchestrating the child hunts that Ishtar and her family find utterly reprehensible (except for her mom, she's relishes it because... evil). Hell, it felt like Ishtar had more tender feelings than Reinhardt, which is why Julius hates the guy so much. It seems like she's being forced into a relationship with Julius by her mother as a power grab. Personally, I think this adds more tragedy to her tale, as she's only doing these horrible things because she is forced to, and it's really her only way to protect her loved ones like Reinhardt and various children, and fails at it. Otherwise she's another in a line of Camuses (how would you say Camus as a plural while using the correct pronunciation? Somebody please help) that make bad choices in their continued allegiance (though Ishtar has pretty good reason to hate the liberation army, but her reason didn't stop Lex, Azel, Tailtyu, Tinny, or Olwen).

I think the relationship might have been written in a more positive light in Genealogy and then retconned in Thracia to be more twisted. I can't think of any real examples of Julius being particularly controlling or abusive to her in the former.

Regarding Camus, it's French, so there would be no change to the word to make it plural (it would be more clear in French as you'd use a different article like les instead of le). And for those of you that don't know, the S is silent.

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I don't view it as creepy or sweet, but just painfully tragic. There was probably a sweet and wonderful love between them one time, but with Loptyr in Julius' hands, he's become a monster, and yet Ishtar still loves him and hopes he can be well again somehow. Almost every scene between them in FE4 breaks my heart.

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4 minutes ago, TadpoleSuperHero said:

I don't view it as creepy or sweet, but just painfully tragic. There was probably a sweet and wonderful love between them one time, but with Loptyr in Julius' hands, he's become a monster, and yet Ishtar still loves him and hopes he can be well again somehow. Almost every scene between them in FE4 breaks my heart.

Well Julius did start getting possessed as like a seven year old. So that sweet and wonderful love would have been just plain old love of everything that children have.

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2 minutes ago, TadpoleSuperHero said:

I don't view it as creepy or sweet, but just painfully tragic. There was probably a sweet and wonderful love between them one time, but with Loptyr in Julius' hands, he's become a monster, and yet Ishtar still loves him and hopes he can be well again somehow. Almost every scene between them in FE4 breaks my heart.

I second this view, I think Ishtar is stuck in the grieving over what could have been if Julius had not turned evil stage and is hoping for a miracle.  Ishtar is a bit delusional when it comes to Julius and she may have been hoping to save his soul some how.  Of course even though she wants to save the children being hunted, she would never join the liberation army because they killed of her family and she may stick by Julius because he is the last person she cares about who is "alive" (him being evil incarnate not withstanding).

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It's neither while both, It feels like the two were betrothed together to begin with. Especially given how Ishtars mother talk to her about it. It's sad in that I imagine a younger Julius liked Ishtar and thus wanted to stay with her, then the killer evil Loptous Julius crept in and started seeing Ishtar as just another tool to further their ambitions. It's probably why Ishtar seems to have an understanding with Arvis. The two once loved Julius then he became a arrogant brat who wanted to watch the world burn and they couldn't do anything about, Both likely had Ideas that they could save him.

52 minutes ago, EricaofRenais said:

Almost every scene between them in FE4 breaks my heart.

 I mean, It would if I had any establishment between the two prior to evil Julius. But since It just comes across as "I love the Big bad because" It's harder to care since I only know them as a monster.  (An FE 4 Echos with similar memory prism scenes would really help this...one day)

7 hours ago, Vince777 said:

It probably would be difficult to join Seliph's army regardless considering they killed both her parents and brother. 

Clearly I know how to make it work, FE 4 and 5 are one game, to get Ishtar, while doing the FE 5 section of the game, you have to capture Reinhardt and he stays as permanent prisoner who you can't let escape or die, Keep Olwen alive, have recruited Saias and kept him alive, and then the 3 join you on the last chapter you have to have Rien and Olwen talk to her 3 times. It's perfectly convoluted and terrible, also make Tinne have to talk to her too. 

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2 hours ago, DemolisherBPB said:

you have to have Rien and Olwen talk to her 3 times. It's perfectly convoluted and terrible, also make Tinne have to talk to her too. 

That's a lot of turns of leaving her alive to smite your party with mjolnir. I'm usually in a rush to kill her as fast as possible because darn she's powerful (although if I recall well, the 3 peg sisters that charge just ahead were the actual biggest threat). 

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I still hold the view that both the marriage and the poessesion take place at too young an age. I don't think that the "loyal to him due to his old self" argument works properly when they could not have known each other very long and as basically only child friends besides.

FE4 Ishtar mine as well be as bad as her mother imo, but it is where Julius is nicest to her

FE5 Ishtar is somewhat sympathetic, although, I do feel like the Rhineheardt thing was more one sided (from Rhinehardt) than people make it out to be, although she does seem to care/protest a little, the lack of a resolution, such as her mourning him post battle or during the epilougue kind of dampens it. FE5 portrays Julius as less nice to her.

The Endgame Camus angle always feels bizzare since all these royals subsumed their country's soveringnity to the granvalle in the first place (reading into the gen1 name change from kingdom to empire) It also seems redundant to have even more Camus in the game after already having enough with Eltshan, some of the Chapter 6-7 Lenster-Thracia generals, etc.

Honestly, I think the narrative would benefit from definately taking the creepy angle... although I kind of want a general Julius rewrite into a (darker) Pokemon Entei movie detached child villian. I would like Julius to think of Ishtar more as an idea than something concrete, much like when Molly has the unknown create a magical adult body for her - I think that emphasizing Julius's lack of knowledge of how to act around women and attempting to to deal with her the way he imagines romance is supposed to work (granted we can't use the expression the way he saw romance in the movies for this setting, but you get the point) 

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Both, and tragic.

It's heavily implied that Yurius was actually really a super nice kid, but then he touched the Lopto Tome... congratulaton, Yurius has promoted to Dark Prince and became possessed by Lopto.
But in FE4, they don't take the shortcut of possession equal "Mwahaha, I'm X reborn in this new body !", nope not of that crap, it's really more like a perfect, definitive fusion between two persons with one being seemingly being more present than the other.

It's sweet that despite everything evil he has done, child hunt, killing his mother and trying to kill his sister, it's his affection toward Ishtar that remained. It's showed in various forms, both sweet and creepy. And Ishtar loves him, or what remained of him, or the memory of him, or him no matter the form. Of course it's tragic and ended as a tragedy, because, Final Boss. Camus Archetype.

It's such cool writing man, like, really really cool.

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A bit of both. Julius does really seem to care for her otherwise he wouldn't have gotten so angry when you kill her. A lot of the time Julius sounds more like a smitten teen around Ishtar rather than a diabolical mastermind. Instead of plotting to use her powers he talks with her about visiting flower gardens or how he's going to spoil her with gifts. Even when it comes to fighting Julius either considers it the two of them ''playing'' together in Miletos or prefersshe'd stay away from the fighting. But Julius is also a big creep too. Ultimately he's being nice to Ishtar because he enjoys her but considering the Reinhart incident I doubt he actually takes her opinion into account. Ishtar's feelings or consent probably don't entirely matter to Julius.

As for Ishtar, she probably loves Julius or who Julius was supposed to be. She wouldn't be so worried when Julius gets sick or go out of her way to fetch Cyas as opposed to Manfroy if she wasn't. Despite Julius being controlling she's also not completely without her own agency. She goes behind Julius back with the child hunt and she has her own reason to oppose Seliph since at the time of their last fight he wiped out most of her family. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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5 hours ago, Reality said:

FE5 Ishtar is somewhat sympathetic, although, I do feel like the Rhineheardt thing was more one sided (from Rhinehardt) than people make it out to be, although she does seem to care/protest a little, the lack of a resolution, such as her mourning him post battle or during the epilougue kind of dampens it. FE5 portrays Julius as less nice to her.

I don't think Reinhardt ever once mentions Ishtar during his brief appearance in the game. That's all hearsay from others. The way I always interpreted it, the whole thing was entirely in Julius' head.

7 hours ago, DemolisherBPB said:

It's neither while both, It feels like the two were betrothed together to begin with. Especially given how Ishtars mother talk to her about it. It's sad in that I imagine a younger Julius liked Ishtar and thus wanted to stay with her, then the killer evil Loptous Julius crept in and started seeing Ishtar as just another tool to further their ambitions. It's probably why Ishtar seems to have an understanding with Arvis. The two once loved Julius then he became a arrogant brat who wanted to watch the world burn and they couldn't do anything about, Both likely had Ideas that they could save him.

 I mean, It would if I had any establishment between the two prior to evil Julius. But since It just comes across as "I love the Big bad because" It's harder to care since I only know them as a monster.  (An FE 4 Echos with similar memory prism scenes would really help this...one day)

Clearly I know how to make it work, FE 4 and 5 are one game, to get Ishtar, while doing the FE 5 section of the game, you have to capture Reinhardt and he stays as permanent prisoner who you can't let escape or die, Keep Olwen alive, have recruited Saias and kept him alive, and then the 3 join you on the last chapter you have to have Rien and Olwen talk to her 3 times. It's perfectly convoluted and terrible, also make Tinne have to talk to her too. 

I'd actually object to a memory prism or any other way to show off Julius' original personality in the game (unless it was accomplishing some other purpose, like showing his murder of Deirdre). I feel the fact that it's underplayed is what makes it so tragic. Julius is so utterly misfortune, not even the narrative tries to elicit sympathy from him. The game doesn't bang you over the head about how unfair it is to the boy to be like this, yet it still let's you know and I like that. One of those instances where unless you really commit to showing, telling is actually better.

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I think Ishtar was really deeply in love with Julius to want to stick with him after knowing what he was doing. She's perfectly sane for doing this too because she eventually rebels against the child hunts behind Julius' back and does something about it. 

Julius probably did love Ishtar thinking she's his soul mate or something, and that love probably stuck even after the Lopto corruption because Loptyr saw no need to end the relationship. Considering that Julius was able to kill his own mother I doubt Loptyr would have any trouble making Julius or Julius' body kill Ishtar, if he saw it unfit for his plans.

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Neither, it is just absolutely tragic.  The last remnants of who Julius was is his feelings for Ishtar, the girl he fell deeply in love with before being possessed.  Ishtar fell in love with Julius, pre possession, so there is nothing creepy about it.  She simply can't let go of this sweet boy she fell for now turned into a monster by something that he had no control over.  

 

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