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Ares, Black Knight

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Ares is Elidgan's son, whose path in life turned him into a mercenary, then Seliph's ally, then the king of Nodion.  In Heroes, he's a sword cavalry unit who was demoted to 4*.  Is he worth the feathers?  Oh, yes, he is!

With excellent Atk, good Def, middling Spd, low Res, and a boring HP stat, he's meant to hit hard.  How hard?

HP: 36/40/43
Atk: 33/36/39
Spd: 26/30/33
Def: 30/33/36
Res: 14/18/21

Red indicates a superbane.  That's right.  Three superbanes, no superboons.  Sorry, min-maxers.

Default skills:

Weapon: Dark Mystletainn (Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1). If Special triggers before or during combat, grants Special cooldown count-2 after combat.)
Assist: None
Special: Dragonic Aura
A: Brazen Atk/Def
B: Seal Def/Res
C: None

Builds:

Player phase

Full tilt offense (+Spd/-Def or Res)

Spoiler

Weapon: Dark Mystletann
Assist: (flexible)
Special: Dragonic Aura/Luna/Aether OR Moonbow
A: Life and Death/Fury
B: Desperation/-breaker/Wings of Mercy/Escape Route
C: (flexible)
S: Heavy Blade/Stat plus OR Quickened Pulse

Assuming neutral attack and Life and Death 3, his total offensive stats with his beatstick are 57/38, and that's before buffs.  Between Heavy Blade and his sword, expect to see Luna go off every time he attacks.  Fury isn't quite as ridiculously offensive, but he doesn't sacrifice his bulk for it.

If Fury is chosen, +Atk will also work.

Moonbow/Quickened Pulse is a set - you either run both or neither.  Quickened Pulse is wasted on something like Luna (Heavy Blade should take care of the CD of those on the first turn), and you'll need a hit for Moonbow without Quickened Pulse anyway.

The point of this build is NOT to take attacks.  See the mixed phase builds for stuff like Vantage.

The obligatory Brave build (+Atk/-Spd)

Spoiler

Weapon: Brave Sword+
Assist: (flexible)
Special: Bonfire/Luna
A: Death Blow/Brazen Atk/Def
B: -breaker/Desperation
C: (flexible)
S: Atk +3/Heavy Blade/Brash Assault

He's in second place for most attack on a horse (only Knight Chrom beat him), so I'm going to tack this build on.  -breaker is the standard choice, while the Brash Assault/Desperation combo can be used.  I'd rather use his default sword, since its effect is so damn good.

Mixed phase

Taking Advantage of Dark Mystletainn (any)

Spoiler

Weapon: Dark Mystletainn
Assist: (flexible)
Special: Any special that triggers in battle that also has an odd number of uses by default (except Iceberg)
A: Brazen Atk/Def
B: -breaker/Quick Riposte
C: (flexible)
S: Heavy Blade/Quick Riposte/Stat plus

The goal of this set is for three hits to be traded on EP (whether he or his opponent doubles is irrelevant, as long as he lives), trigger Brazen Atk/Def, then murder the everliving daylights out of the next thing Ares attacks, since a default special with 5 CD (LIKE AETHER) will be primed.  A -breaker skill allows him to safely bait a given weapon type, while QR is better if you think you can survive whatever's coming your way.  Once said special goes off, his weapon will tick the special counter down by two at the end of battle.  For now, Galeforce is the only special it won't work on.

Why Aether?  He'll probably kill whatever he's attacking with the Luna portion, and he'll recover HP from tanking via Sol.  Then, he can do it again if necessary.  Otherwise, it'll be right back at two turns.

If a 3 CD skill is chosen (like Luna), he'll have it primed every time he attacks.

When I say any boon/bane works, I mean it.  This is my build, and my current Ares is +Res/-Def (this will change in a bit, I recently pulled a +Atk/-HP one).  If he was -Atk, I'd swap Heavy Blade out for QR, and run something like Swordbreaker in the B slot and Luna as the special.

My enemies are my power! (+Atk/+Def)

Spoiler

Weapon: Dark Mystletainn
Assist: (flexible)
Special: Ignis/Dragon Fang
A: Brazen Atk/Def/Fury
B: Vantage/Quick Riposte/-breaker
C: (fleixble)
S: Quick Riposte/Close Def

Ares fights with a sword, not an oversized key.

Tank hits and use those to charge his special.  On the next turn, unleash it on whatever's in range.  Brazen Atk/Def and Close Def is an extra 13 points in tank power when the enemy's incoming.  When backed by Vantage, it's going to hurt.

This build is weak to mages, so don't have him bait Ishtar.

Enemy phase

Taking advantage of Dark Mystletainn and Distant Counter (+Atk/+Def preferred)

Spoiler

Weapon: Dark Mystletainn
Assist: (flexible)
Special: Bonfire/Luna/Dragonic Aura OR Ignis/Dragon Fang
A: Distant Counter
B: Vantage/Quick Ripotse
C: (flexible)
S: Quick Riposte/Close Def/Distant Def/Stat plus OR Quickened Pulse

Thanks to QR, he's guaranteed to trigger his special if he counters twice the first time.  Ignis/Dragon Fang and Quickened Pulse are a set - it's either both or none, otherwise the CD counts get messy.  Once the first one goes off, Dark Mystletainn's in-battle CD reduction will kick in, leaving the Bonfire line primed, while the Ignis line will be at 1 (perfect for another counter).

Don't have him challenge Micaiah.  Or any other competent blue mage.

You monster (+Def or +Spd/-Res)

Spoiler

Weapon: Safeguard+ (Def)
Assist: (flexible)
Special: Bonfire
A: Close Def/Fury/Brazen Atk/Def/Distant Counter
B: Quick Riposte/-breaker/Guard/Escape Route/Vantage
C: (flexible)
S: Close Def/Quick Riposte/Stat plus/Distant Def

If you built this, you murdered his girlfriend for that sword.  I hope you're proud of yourself.

This is a pure EP build.  With both Close Def, Safeguard, and his boon, he'll have 55 melee Def when the enemy attacks (52 if you went Spd and decided, for WHATEVER reason, that he shouldn't run after things with his default sword and Desperation).  He'll hit 56 (53) Def if Brazen Atk/Def is active.  Distant Counter and Distant Def are only if bows and daggers are making you miserable.  Fury is the budget choice, and he'll still be a nice physical wall.  With three move.  And horse buffs.  Have fun.

UPDATES:

5/20/18 - initial release
5/21/18 - Vantage/DC added to Full Tilt, a few clarifications here and there, completely forgot that Safeguard+ can be refined, changelog added
5/21/18 (again) - Divided everything up into Player Phase, Mixed Phase, and Enemy Phase.  I also hate the captcha.

Edited by eclipse

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Might if add a suggestion? 

I think Vantage is a good option for the “Full Offensive Tilt”, specially if you’re using Aether. Aether+Fury+Vantage work really well together. Admittedly, it helps that my Ares is +HP, but it’s still pretty good synergy. A +Spd Seal also helps has good synergy with this combination.

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7 hours ago, Water Mage said:

Might if add a suggestion? 

I think Vantage is a good option for the “Full Offensive Tilt”, specially if you’re using Aether. Aether+Fury+Vantage work really well together. Admittedly, it helps that my Ares is +HP, but it’s still pretty good synergy. A +Spd Seal also helps has good synergy with this combination.

Yeah, I can tack Vantage onto that.  "Stat plus" covers whatever stat-boosting seal you need - I'm a terrible person that would stack HP on him.

Thanks~!

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1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Yeah, I can tack Vantage onto that.  "Stat plus" covers whatever stat-boosting seal you need - I'm a terrible person that would stack HP on him.

Thanks~!

Well, if Ares is running Fury, the plus HP isn’t all that bad. Sometime a single extra hit point can save you.

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I have a friend that uses his Ares (unmerged) with an attack boon (and a defense bane. He says he prefers him that way because he can survive a +10 Celica with Fury with a +2 bonus to resistance and revenge kill her) and the combo DC+Vantage. His special is Draconic Aura (At first he wanted Bonfire) and he has Quickened Pulse as a seal. Should that be considered as a build? Or it is situational?

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What's the point of putting Safeguard+ with Distant Counter in there? He'll never enough to Def and Spd to deal with most bow Brave Bows, especially if they run Swordbreaker 3.

Distant Counter + Vantage + Draonic Aura build with Dark Mysteltainn is fantastic. 

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40 minutes ago, Nicolu-Chan said:

I have a friend that uses his Ares (unmerged) with an attack boon (and a defense bane. He says he prefers him that way because he can survive a +10 Celica with Fury with a +2 bonus to resistance and revenge kill her) and the combo DC+Vantage. His special is Draconic Aura (At first he wanted Bonfire) and he has Quickened Pulse as a seal. Should that be considered as a build? Or it is situational?

If this is the arena, it's hard to say.  Bonus units get a massive stat boost.  Once Ares is no longer a bonus hero, see if this situation still holds.  If so, I'll add it.

23 minutes ago, Ae†her said:

What's the point of putting Safeguard+ with Distant Counter in there? He'll never enough to Def and Spd to deal with most bow Brave Bows, especially if they run Swordbreaker 3.

Distant Counter + Vantage + Draonic Aura build with Dark Mysteltainn is fantastic. 

According to a bunch of simulator runs, you're very wrong about being unable to deal with bows.  With a forced overwrite of Brave Bow+, Luna, Death Blow, Swordbreaker, and Atk +3 in the S slot, none of the bows can kill him.  This might be an issue if there's a blue bow unit, but they don't exist for now.

I prefer having his A slot amp his offenses further, but I can see how this build works.  I'll add it with a note.

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12 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If this is the arena, it's hard to say.  Bonus units get a massive stat boost.  Once Ares is no longer a bonus hero, see if this situation still holds.  If so, I'll add it.

According to a bunch of simulator runs, you're very wrong about being unable to deal with bows.  With a forced overwrite of Brave Bow+, Luna, Death Blow, Swordbreaker, and Atk +3 in the S slot, none of the bows can kill him.  This might be an issue if there's a blue bow unit, but they don't exist for now.

I prefer having his A slot amp his offenses further, but I can see how this build works.  I'll add it with a note.

What are you running on Ares? Def boon, Safeguard+ (Def+), Distant Defense 3 Seal, Fury 3? That's 57 Def, Jesus Christ. Nvm, if that is the case.

Edited by Ae†her

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6 minutes ago, Ae†her said:

What are you running on Ares? Def boon, Safeguard+ (Def+), Distant Defense 3 Seal, Fury 3? That's 57 Def, Jesus Christ. Nvm, if that is the case.

It's Safeguard+ (Def+), Distant Counter, Distant Def 3 with a Def boon.  Wouldn't recommend a counter-bow build with anything else.

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51 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If this is the arena, it's hard to say.  Bonus units get a massive stat boost.  Once Ares is no longer a bonus hero, see if this situation still holds.  If so, I'll add it.

No, he ran the numbers in the simulator (unmerged and vanilla, I don't know if enemies fusions or skills affect the results).

Anyway, I have tried him sometimes vs the GC units (in Lunatic) and it works until you found a red unit with enough defense or blues (there is the occasional Hardy Bearing unit) but nevertheless is good. In those, however, he has the Atk.+3 seal.

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4 minutes ago, Nicolu-Chan said:

No, he ran the numbers in the simulator (unmerged and vanilla, I don't know if enemies fusions or skills affect the results).

Anyway, I have tried him sometimes vs the GC units (in Lunatic) and it works until you found a red unit with enough defense or blues (there is the occasional Hardy Bearing unit) but nevertheless is good. In those, however, he has the Atk.+3 seal.

It's an oddly specific situation.  A Celica with Life and Death isn't uncommon, so his theoretical Ares will bite the dust.

I wouldn't have Ares tank mages if I can help it.  He'll probably survive, but he won't be happy about it!

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These builds are missing and are sufficiently different from your Full Tilt build and very specific in their setup and use:

Ares [+Atk, -Res]
Dark Mystletainn
Reposition / [flexible assist]
Bonfire
Distant Counter / Brazen Atk/Def 3
Vantage 3
[flexible passive C]
Quick Riposte 3

Intended for player use or AI use. Good for all occasions.

The bane can also be -HP or -Spd.

This build has Bonfire charged at the beginning of every round of combat and simply aims to one-hit kill everything on enemy phase. Quick Riposte is in the S slot to clinch the kill on the first round of combat. Vantage takes over after that.

Distant Counter allows this build to work on both melee and ranged units. Brazen Atk/Def boosts this build's effectiveness against melee units at the cost of not being able to deal with ranged units on enemy phase (but still capable on player phase).

This build as the benefit of being able to be used as a mixed-phase build.

 

Ares [+Atk, -Res]
Dark Mystletainn
Reposition / [flexible assist]
Ignis
Distant Counter / Brazen Atk/Def 3
Quick Riposte 3
[flexible passive C]
Close Def 3

Intended for player use. Good for all occasions. The AI will probably get him killed, though.

The boon can also be Def. The bane can also be -HP or -Spd.

This build is the non-Vantage version of the above build, using his massive Def stat after activating both Brazen Atk/Def and Close Def to survive additional rounds of combat after the first and counterattack with a ridiculously strong Ignis. Again, Quick Riposte is there to clinch the kill on the first round of combat. Subsequent rounds of combat shouldn't need more than one hit to finish due to his 36-damage Ignis (at +0 with no buffs and running the Brazen build).

Again, Distant Counter gives Ares the ability to deal with ranged units whereas Brazen Atk/Def gives him better performance against melee units.

This build is purely an enemy-phase build because Ignis needs the enemy to initiate to get its last point of charge.

Edited by Ice Dragon

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7 minutes ago, eclipse said:

It's an oddly specific situation.  A Celica with Life and Death isn't uncommon, so his theoretical Ares will bite the dust.

I wouldn't have Ares tank mages if I can help it.  He'll probably survive, but he won't be happy about it!

You're right in that. But that low HP helps him activate Vantage (And by the way, for Ares to survive a +atk +10 Life and Death Celica would need the Distant Defense seal and a +1 bonus to resistance, just saying). But then, he would survive against mages with only 1-2 HP and be killed by anything in return.

Anyways, nice builds! The only one I would change is the Safeguard one, but only adding that a +speed IV would work very well, stacking speed adds to his chances of survival (With the Safeguard refined in speed, the boon and Cavalry bonuses he hits 42 speed while retaining his 50 of defense).

 

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5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

(snip)

Right, Close Def.  I think I'll re-sort everything into PP, mixed phase, and EP, probably after I eat lunch (it's a bit before 1:30 PM here).

EDIT: @Ice Dragon I think I got the logic of your builds down.  They're interesting, to say the least!

5 hours ago, Nicolu-Chan said:

You're right in that. But that low HP helps him activate Vantage (And by the way, for Ares to survive a +atk +10 Life and Death Celica would need the Distant Defense seal and a +1 bonus to resistance, just saying). But then, he would survive against mages with only 1-2 HP and be killed by anything in return.

Anyways, nice builds! The only one I would change is the Safeguard one, but only adding that a +speed IV would work very well, stacking speed adds to his chances of survival (With the Safeguard refined in speed, the boon and Cavalry bonuses he hits 42 speed while retaining his 50 of defense).

 

I'll make a note of the Speed thing, too.  thanks!

Edited by eclipse

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On 5/21/2018 at 6:22 PM, eclipse said:

I think I got the logic of your builds down.  They're interesting, to say the least!

A bit off, but sure. I'll elaborate a bit more on my thought process since I know I was a bit terse in the previous post.

 

Bonfire (or any 3-charge Special, preferably Bonfire or Luna):

This build needs Vantage for its intended use, and Quick Riposte is highly recommended as the Sacred Seal. Close Def can be used instead if you know your first round of combat is against something slow enough to be doubled by Ares.

On the first round of combat, if the opponent dies in one hit, two hits were traded and Bonfire is fully charged for the next round of combat. If the opponent does not die in one hit, they are hit with Bonfire on the follow-up counterattack due to Quick Riposte. Dark Mystletainn's effect then fully charges Bonfire for the next round of combat.

If Ares is now in Vantage range, every opponent that initiates on him will immediately eat a Bonfire to the face and hopefully just roll over and die. If Ares is not in Vantage range, then Quick Riposte is still up and you can repeat the previous step with the next victim. Either way, Bonfire will always activate on every round of combat and therefore fully charge itself at the end of combat. Because Bonfire is fully charged at the beginning of every round, it can't even be blocked with Guard (except for the very first round of combat).

The biggest benefit of this build over the Ignis build below is the fact that because Bonfire is already fully charged, you can also initiate combat yourself to blow things up on your own pace (and Bonfire will always remain fully charged).

Brazen Atk/Def powers up his Bonfire significantly to make it more likely to one-hit kill enemies after his HP drops low enough. Distant Counter allows him to preempt bow users (other than Firesweep Bow and Sacae's Blessing) and tome users and blow them up without needing to worry about his low Res stat.

 

Ignis (or any 4-charge Special, but preferably Ignis):

This build prefers Quick Riposte in the B slot and Close Def as the Sacred Seal (though you can use Distant Def for bows). This build cannot be run with Vantage. I don't find there to be a need to run Quickened Pulse with this build unless you're dealing with extremely bulky red or blue units that are too slow to double Ares (because Ares is not very slow, especially with buffs active).

On the first round of combat, if the opponent dies in one hit, Ignis is at 1 cooldown remaining. If the opponent dies in two hits, Ignis is fully charged. If the opponent dies in two hits and doubled Ares, Ignis activated on the second hit and is back at 1 cooldown remaining due to Dark Mystletainn's effect.

Because Ignis is now at 1 cooldown remaining (or is already fully charged) and Ares does not have Vantage, every round of combat afterwards will begin with the opponent attacking once to bring Ignis to be fully charged, and Ares will retaliate with an Ignis, hopefully turning the opponent into dust and ash. After combat, Ignis will return to being at 1 cooldown remaining and you can repeat as long as Ares doesn't die.

Brazen Atk/Def helps Ares not die and powers up his Ignis. Distant Counter makes it easier for Ares to die, but lets him counterattack bows.

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I've heard that Ares can also be good with the Growing/Blazing AoE specials due to Dark Mystletainn's unique effect, is that worth exploring at all in a set?

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@Ice Dragon Bonfire build makes sense.  I'm not sure if I'd want to recommend Ignis, since Ares doesn't seem to do anything on PP.  Probably won't have time to update before the weekend, though.

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6 hours ago, eclipse said:

Bonfire build makes sense.  I'm not sure if I'd want to recommend Ignis, since Ares doesn't seem to do anything on PP.  Probably won't have time to update before the weekend, though.

A pure enemy-phase build shouldn't be expected to do anything on player phase, though.

Running the simulator with +2 Ares [+Atk, -Res] (Dark Mystletainn, Ignis [1 cooldown], Brazen Atk/Def 3, Quick Riposte 3, Close Def 3) +0/0/6/6 against vanilla-skill opponents with +5 [+Spd] (Moonbow, Bold Fighter 3) +3/3/3/3,

  • At full health (i.e. after taking a round of combat that didn't damage him to charge Ignis to 1 cooldown), he has a W:L:D ratio of 125:12:6 against all-color melee opponents.
  • Ares wins against all non-blue melee opponents when starting from 31/41 HP and has draws only against Windsweepers (Joshua, Alm) and Firesweepers (Soleil).
  • The only blues he loses to when starting from 31/41 HP are dragons (Nowi, Kana) and cavalry-effective weapons (Clair, Mathilda). He draws against Firesweep Roderick.
  • Ares additionally loses against dragons (Fae, Myrrh, Robin, Robin, Tiki, Tiki) and cavalry-effective weapons (Gray) when starting from 21/41 HP. (Not going to bother listing blues, which he shouldn't be dealing with at this low of health.)

Checking against the other enemy lists show pretty much the same results.

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On 5/24/2018 at 1:11 AM, BANRYU said:

I've heard that Ares can also be good with the Growing/Blazing AoE specials due to Dark Mystletainn's unique effect, is that worth exploring at all in a set?

Growing Wind and Growing Thunder are pretty much the only reliable ones.  Growing Light and Growing Flame have weird shapes. Though Growing Flame is probably the one that Ares can make the most use of because there's an opening he can attack in that doesn't take away a tile from where he can deal damage, but it is still a weird shape.

Edited by Ae†her

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@Ae†her I haven't exactly looked into it a ton (really at all), but I think the thinking behind those is that they simulate a guaranteed double that still charges. The stronger ones also provide a glimmer effect. If I'm remembering everything correctly, with brazen and bonfire +atk he's hitting 82 attack (62 + 20), 69 with WTD, which probably is killing everything but maybe some stuff is surviving. One of the 1.5x damage ones gives him two hits of 62 plus whatever the half is. For reds, he'll break even around 48 def, doing 35ish with both. For blues, that same point is at 35ish defense, again 35ish damage. Probably more useful against blues since 35 is a lot lower than 48, but still seems like most blues with that much def generally have more than 35 HP at which point he's failing to KO anyway, so not super sure how practical it is to consider over bonfire. Plus Guard can interrupt it which isn't so good.

Edit: I'm an idiot. Below those def marks, the AoE special does more so bonfire is better for higher def enemies, but the AoEs might be better for very high health enemies that don't have as high def. Though again, the guard issue and both are probably killing 99% of stuff. Plus bonfire lets him run a dual phase build. So still not sure how practical the AoE specials are.

Edited by bottlegnomes

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21 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

So still not sure how practical the AoE specials are.

The biggest problem with AoE Special skills is not their long cooldown or damage output or damage patter, but the fact that they can only be activated once per turn at a maximum, only on player phase, and never on the unit's first round of combat (unless you're running Infantry Pulse, which isn't an option for Ares).

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AoE specials are extremely practical in Rival Domains/Grand Conquest specifically. With the recent changes, you want to get most of your kills on player phase anyways, especially for newly spawned formations.

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On 5/24/2018 at 6:14 AM, Ice Dragon said:

A pure enemy-phase build shouldn't be expected to do anything on player phase, though.

Running the simulator with +2 Ares [+Atk, -Res] (Dark Mystletainn, Ignis [1 cooldown], Brazen Atk/Def 3, Quick Riposte 3, Close Def 3) +0/0/6/6 against vanilla-skill opponents with +5 [+Spd] (Moonbow, Bold Fighter 3) +3/3/3/3,

  • At full health (i.e. after taking a round of combat that didn't damage him to charge Ignis to 1 cooldown), he has a W:L:D ratio of 125:12:6 against all-color melee opponents.
  • Ares wins against all non-blue melee opponents when starting from 31/41 HP and has draws only against Windsweepers (Joshua, Alm) and Firesweepers (Soleil).
  • The only blues he loses to when starting from 31/41 HP are dragons (Nowi, Kana) and cavalry-effective weapons (Clair, Mathilda). He draws against Firesweep Roderick.
  • Ares additionally loses against dragons (Fae, Myrrh, Robin, Robin, Tiki, Tiki) and cavalry-effective weapons (Gray) when starting from 21/41 HP. (Not going to bother listing blues, which he shouldn't be dealing with at this low of health.)

Checking against the other enemy lists show pretty much the same results.

I followed along until you listed the +3 string.  What does this mean?

I'll give a shout-out to AoE specials, but I don't think they're practical outside of Rival Domains/Grand Conquest, since it's dependent on enemy formation.

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2 hours ago, eclipse said:

I followed along until you listed the +3 string.  What does this mean?

Those mean buffs in Atk/Spd/Def/Res. For example, Hone Cavalry will be 6/6/0/0, Ward Armor is 0/0/4/4 (or 0/0/8/8 and 0/0/12/12 if you stack them), and Urðr's buff is 3/3/3/3.

Edited by XRay

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43 minutes ago, XRay said:

Those mean buffs in Atk/Spd/Def/Res. For example, Hone Cavalry will be 6/6/0/0, Ward Armor is 0/0/4/4 (or 0/0/8/8 and 0/0/12/12 if you stack them), and Urðr's buff is 3/3/3/3.

I guess we're assuming PA!Azura?  I usually don't factor them in unless I need to point out a benchmark, since there's no telling what kind of situation my reader will be in.

Still, thanks for the explanation.

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