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Tempest Trials: Feud of the Fangs!

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19 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You can safely snipe the melee infantry and Reposition or Draw Back to get out of the range of the armor and bait the cavalry without getting in range of the ranged infantry and Ursula. I'm finding this map really easy.

A ranged attacker can also destroy the breakable wall and bait the ranged enemy without being in anyone else's range.

So 3 of the 5 enemies can be baited and killed pretty easily.

 

My +3 +Def Jaffar is an absolute monster here. With Fury 3 he has 37 Def. I gave his weapon a Spd refinement and he is running the Distant Defense 3 seal to be able to bait any ranged attackers.

I've been pretty busy, but with almost exclusively Lunatic-5 autobattles, I have managed 25k per day so far. With my 2 days off starting tomorrow, I hope to really shoot ahead in the rankings.

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Canas and Linus are surprisingly fun in current TTs. 

Both didn't need much SI, I just gave SPD+2 seal plus Iceberg to Canas, Renewal 2 plus Ardent Sacrifice to Linus (no refinement though). Linus runs double Drive DEF, Shiro Drive DEF + Drive ATK and Klein Hone ATK + Spur SPD 2.

Canas tanks most ranged units and is healed quickly afterwards, since Linus wants to stay below 80% HP anyway. 

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I, uh, forgot Canas was a thing while I was grinding out some points just earlier. Could've levelled him up using my stamina instead of just using my 40s. Oops.

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Slowing down to save orbs for the summer units turned out to be a good idea in the end. I'm at 42k atm, maybe I'll start grinding harder once the banner drops and I get to 50k doing the daily 3 runs.

Both Olivias already maxed their HM so I guess it's time for Inigo to take his mother's place for the feathers. I also changed Y!Tiki with Alm, I wanted to get a better feeling of his refined Falchion and it's really cool.

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Capped Fjorm, so sadly I will have to forgo the Water bonus for the rest of the TT. Closest I have to a 1-for-1 replacement is Hardin who is unbuilt and is dry on SP, so he seems a reasonable pick. Maria is just about to cap (joining Clarine and Lachesis) but I can sub in Lucius, Bridelyn and Sakura so that's fine.

Also despite my saying that I probably wouldn't promote Linus, I might yet do so since I have more feathers than I expected, and because Karla has been very disappointing even in the level 30 autobattles. When Jaffar consistently outlives you, you might have a problem. Canas might want a levelling buddy anyway.

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50 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

Karla has been very disappointing even in the level 30 autobattles. When Jaffar consistently outlives you, you might have a problem.

Jaffar is an absolute monster with boosted stats, but what the heck are you doing wrong on Karla??

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26 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

Jaffar is an absolute monster with boosted stats, but what the heck are you doing wrong on Karla??

Fielding Karla, Peganino and Jaffar with a disarmed healer in autobattle and Karla has the lowest survival rate of the three. Granted, half the time it's probably her charging headlong into Ursula's range, maybe I should experiment with the party order to see if I can improve the outcome.

All the units are unbuilt, which is obviously a factor too. They've learned all their default skills of course, but I haven't given them anything beyond. I'll probably build Nino eventually but Karla being -spd will likely just be a benchwarmer after the TT ends, so I'm not investing anything in her. Jaffar is +spd/-def, I wish they could swap natures. I've had the Jaffar since around the start of the year but I don't want to invest in him as dew is at a premium.

So yeah, I'll get them to 2000-3000 SP each so I have a reserve for future investment but it's about halfway through the event and it's about the right time to swap them out for Canas and Linus who are both level 1 now. I can't justify refining Basilikos either though, but fortunately the unrefined version should work well enough, unlike unrefined Deathly Daggers.

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3 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

Fielding Karla, Peganino and Jaffar with a disarmed healer in autobattle and Karla has the lowest survival rate of the three. Granted, half the time it's probably her charging headlong into Ursula's range, maybe I should experiment with the party order to see if I can improve the outcome.

All the units are unbuilt, which is obviously a factor too. They've learned all their default skills of course, but I haven't given them anything beyond. I'll probably build Nino eventually but Karla being -spd will likely just be a benchwarmer after the TT ends, so I'm not investing anything in her. Jaffar is +spd/-def, I wish they could swap natures. I've had the Jaffar since around the start of the year but I don't want to invest in him as dew is at a premium.

So yeah, I'll get them to 2000-3000 SP each so I have a reserve for future investment but it's about halfway through the event and it's about the right time to swap them out for Canas and Linus who are both level 1 now. I can't justify refining Basilikos either though, but fortunately the unrefined version should work well enough, unlike unrefined Deathly Daggers.

Renewal 1 or 2 with Miracle goes a long way for keeping your units alive. I gave my Karla (+SPD/-HP) Fury 3 as well since I have been fielding a healer (I always keep them with a weapon), and she has the Close Defense seal. Without a healer, I would probably give her HP +5,  Def +3, or Res +3.

My Jaffar is +def and he has been my MVP so far. I gave him a +SPD refine because I still have 600 dew potentially and no real projects currently in mind. Pain+ built into his dagger and Savage Blow 3 allows him to completely decimate groups of enemies. At +3 with Fury 3 he has 37 Def and 27 Res in the TT, and I gave him Distant Def seal to bait ranged attackers which helps for Ursula.

 

110k is currently rank 888.

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Is it me or is this tempest trial significantly easier than the others? Reinhard could decimate your entire party with his absurd range, power and vantage and Loki could at least hit decently hard. Ursula on the other hand is a complete wimp.

I tend to reach her chapter without much damage for any of my units too. 

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25 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Is it me or is this tempest trial significantly easier than the others? Reinhard could decimate your entire party with his absurd range, power and vantage and Loki could at least hit decently hard. Ursula on the other hand is a complete wimp.

I tend to reach her chapter without much damage for any of my units too. 

Indeed, I must kill myself my first team to have the bonus (nino is in the second team) so yeah, totally

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43 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Is it me or is this tempest trial significantly easier than the others? Reinhard could decimate your entire party with his absurd range, power and vantage and Loki could at least hit decently hard. Ursula on the other hand is a complete wimp.

I tend to reach her chapter without much damage for any of my units too. 

Well yeah. IS doesn't know how to build competent TT bosses. The only well built PvE content boss in recent memory IMO is Infernal Xander. Completely different skills than his base kit and a annoying for to deal with. A well built DC user as well

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I would love a rerun of the first TTs, just to compare how modern units would fare against Veronica. 

Meanwhile 59k means rank 8k. 

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3 hours ago, silveraura25 said:

Well yeah. IS doesn't know how to build competent TT bosses. The only well built PvE content boss in recent memory IMO is Infernal Xander. Completely different skills than his base kit and a annoying for to deal with. A well built DC user as well

Ursula is plenty competent, she just doesn't have the most amazing stat spread and skills to work with. I'm sure that if there were a bunch of Horse units for the bonus units everyone would be complaining about how Ursula is a pain to deal with. No horse units makes her tome worthless for her. 

Loki's skill set was fantastic for her. One of the toughest TT final maps. 

 

An enemy Ishtar just one round KO'ed my Jaffar at full heath on the final map of Lunatic-7... She freaking doubled his buffed 47 Spd and killed him with his 55 HP and 34 Res. I was so confused when Jaffar was missing from the map at the start of turn 2. That was the first time any ranged attacker killed him on the final map like that. Yet Ishtar is A+ tier... lol, yeah right.

3 hours ago, mampfoid said:

I would love a rerun of the first TTs, just to compare how modern units would fare against Veronica. 

I'm guessing the first TT would be really easy. Thinking back on it, I only had 1 sword unit who could double Veronica and kill her. Only four or five  5* units total. No DC units. No super tanks who could obliterate things on the EP. I still hadn't reached the 200 unit limit on my barracks at that point so there just wasn't a lot to work with.

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5 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

Yet Ishtar is A+ tier... lol, yeah right.

Because Fjorm and Effie exist and Jaffar is neither Fjorm nor Effie.

That said, she's the only infantry blue tome in A+ that is there based on combat performance alone. All of the other infantry blue tomes would likely be a tier lower if they didn't have a support effect on their weapon.

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1 hour ago, Hawk King said:

I'm guessing the first TT would be really easy. Thinking back on it, I only had 1 sword unit who could double Veronica and kill her. Only four or five  5* units total. No DC units. No super tanks who could obliterate things on the EP. I still hadn't reached the 200 unit limit on my barracks at that point so there just wasn't a lot to work with.

Yeah, I remember that. I had to field a lot of 4* units too, but Xander (speaking of DC) killed Veronica a lot of times, almost never alone though. 

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Because Fjorm and Effie exist and Jaffar is neither Fjorm nor Effie.

That said, she's the only infantry blue tome in A+ that is there based on combat performance alone. All of the other infantry blue tomes would likely be a tier lower if they didn't have a support effect on their weapon.

What does a certain Effie build that can tank some Ishtar builds, and Fjorm being able to counter-kill her only if she has Ice Mirror have do do with anything?

Ishtar's combat performance is among the best in the game regardless of weapon typing. With just two stacks of Infantry pulse and summoner support, Ishtar can 1 shot every single unit in the entire game, barring a couple units with the Emerald Axe (no one uses this), including -Hp or -Res Fjorm. That is with +10, Fury 3, and +3 to all stats overwrites. If Chill Res 3 is active, Summoner support is unneeded and even all axe units die with an Emerald Axe+ overwrite.

Sure it isn't as brain-dead as a Brave Bold build on an armor (or just Bold Fighter in general), but her mobility and attack range are much better than an armor unit's.

 

As far as the TT goes, it is looking like the top 1000 cutoff will be right around 250k. I'm pretty sure it will be a bit lower than last TT's cutoff of 262k. Probably because Canas is much worse/disliked compared to Groom Marth.

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1 hour ago, Hawk King said:

What does a certain Effie build that can tank some Ishtar builds, and Fjorm being able to counter-kill her only if she has Ice Mirror have do do with anything?

Because that's how the tier list works? The tier list is geared towards the 710 score range, and these are units and builds that are supposedly common there. Because units at least this high on the tier list are already expected to handle match-ups at advantage, what differentiates them from units ranked even higher are their neutral match-ups.

 

1 hour ago, Hawk King said:

With just two stacks of Infantry pulse

Which is more support than is assumed by the tier list and requires a specific team composition (i.e. minimum 3 infantry).

When arguing the tiering of a unit, you still need to abide by the restrictions the tier list uses or make a justifiable argument why those restrictions should be changed and how.

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For me Veronica wasn't as big of a problem as the maps themselves were.  The first TT was notorious for having a lot of the awful Awakening maps that would kill your speed score.  The one with the bush blocking one of two chokepoints with stationary enemies, the one with the single long chokepoint flanked by the canyons, the arena with all the breakable blocks in the middle, etc. And never mind the enemy refreshers and random enemies with WoM and breaker skills (who don't have them natively).

That being said, it might be fun to try it again under the same rules as before.

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Because that's how the tier list works? The tier list is geared towards the 710 score range, and these are units and builds that are supposedly common there. Because units at least this high on the tier list are already expected to handle match-ups at advantage, what differentiates them from units ranked even higher are their neutral match-ups.

I go to him a lot, but Lukas can 1v1 literally every single Lance unit above him. Even the Bold Fighter armors with buffs.

And you're not exactly going to see a whole lot of DC at the 710 score range which would only make ranged attackers better. Or at least the ranged attackers would have more merges than say Armors with DC. A 710 score range seems strange to me. It is well below the cut off for Tier 20.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Which is more support than is assumed by the tier list and requires a specific team composition (i.e. minimum 3 infantry).

When arguing the tiering of a unit, you still need to abide by the restrictions the tier list uses or make a justifiable argument why those restrictions should be changed and how.

With only 2 infantry on a team, Ishtar would have to use Draconic Aura instead of Dragon Fang. She would still be able to 1 shot most if not all blues. 

With the new Infantry skill being introduced they should add an Infantry Emblem list alongside Armor, Cavalry, and Flyer.

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46 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

I go to him a lot, but Lukas can 1v1 literally every single Lance unit above him. Even the Bold Fighter armors with buffs.

I don't know the specifics of his rating, but my assumption is that he has trouble with magic. Probably Tharja, which is a problem because Tharja is red. He's forced to give up one of Distant Counter or Steady/Warding Breath at any given time, which means he's unable to deal with both red melee and red ranged units with a single build. All of the infantry lance users above him either have Distant Counter built in to their weapon (Fjorm), have a weapon with a built-in support skill and existent player-phase performance to deal with ranged red units (Ephraim, Lucina), or can dance (Azura).

A unit's ranking isn't based on how well they can defeat the units above or below them. It's based on how well they perform the job that is required of their color and how many additional jobs they can simultaneously perform.

 

58 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

And you're not exactly going to see a whole lot of DC at the 710 score range which would only make ranged attackers better. Or at least the ranged attackers would have more merges than say Armors with DC. A 710 score range seems strange to me. It is well below the cut off for Tier 20.

I think 710-720 is around where the cutoff is to bounce between tiers 19 and 20. The tier list specifically says they're using enemies in the 700-720 range with that as the reasoning.

According to the notes, Ishtar's match-ups are considered with her at +2 and opponents at +4.

 

1 hour ago, Hawk King said:

With only 2 infantry on a team, Ishtar would have to use Draconic Aura instead of Dragon Fang. She would still be able to 1 shot most if not all blues.

The only support that is used for ranking is +4 to the two stats that benefit the unit most. Infantry Pulse would require the creation of an "Infantry Emblem" tier list, the problems of which I will get to in the next comment.

 

1 hour ago, Hawk King said:

With the new Infantry skill being introduced they should add an Infantry Emblem list alongside Armor, Cavalry, and Flyer.

So here's the problem:

Non-infantry movement-type teams have buffs that provide a fixed boost. Cavalry and flier teams receive +6 to all stats. Armor teams get Armor March. This means that a unit receives the exact same buffs regardless of who its teammates are.

Currently, the only infantry boost is Infantry Pulse, which depends entirely on who a unit's teammates are. It is entirely possible to build a team where Bartre (who has the highest base HP of all infantry) has the lowest HP in your team and receives 3 stacks of Infantry Pulse or Kagero (who has the lowest base HP of all infantry) has the highest HP in your team and receives no stacks of Infantry Pulse. It's hard to argue exactly how many stacks of Infantry Pulse is appropriate to apply when tiering a unit.

With the introduction of Infantry Rush, it can be argued that you can at least assume a unit is in range to receive the buff on an infantry team, but its effect simply doesn't make as large of a difference as the other movement-type buffs do. Heavy Blade does not affect the performance of a unit's first attack on their first round of combat, only its second attack onwards, and it doesn't stack with Steady Breath or Warding Breath, which have a superior effect (because it can affect whether a Special skill is charged on a unit's first attack).

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9 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The tier list specifically says they're using enemies in the 700-720 range with that as the reasoning.

How do you determine that though? A team of armors, all with with Aether, DC, and Bold Fighter will have very few merges like +2 at most for any of them. A team of mages with  lower SP skills could all have higher merges and still fall in that range.

13 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

According to the notes, Ishtar's match-ups are considered with her at +2 and opponents at +4.

Based on the score ranges, it seems that it should be the other way around, shouldn't it? Lower BST units should be assumed to have more merges.

Personally, I feel it should be all +0 v +0 or +10 v +10 just for the sake of simplicity.

22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Currently, the only infantry boost is Infantry Pulse, which depends entirely on who a unit's teammates are. It is entirely possible to build a team where Bartre (who has the highest base HP of all infantry) has the lowest HP in your team and receives 3 stacks of Infantry Pulse or Kagero (who has the lowest base HP of all infantry) has the highest HP in your team and receives no stacks of Infantry Pulse. It's hard to argue exactly how many stacks of Infantry Pulse is appropriate to apply when tiering a unit.

While this is true, I think it is safe to assume that high HP units get no more than 1 stack and low HP units can get as much as 3. Just flat out dismissing it altogether is a pretty ignorant solution.

Besides, on a fully optimized Infantry team, someone gets 1 stack, 2 stacks, and 3 stacks with the highest HP getting none. So for instance, labeling Ishtar as the "2 stack receiver/1 stack giver" should be fair for determining her value as both an offensive threat and a support role. If anything, the fluidity of the roles on an Infantry team just goes to show how powerful they can be.

35 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I don't know the specifics of his rating, but my assumption is that he has trouble with magic. Probably Tharja, which is a problem because Tharja is red. He's forced to give up one of Distant Counter or Steady/Warding Breath at any given time, which means he's unable to deal with both red melee and red ranged units with a single build. All of the infantry lance users above him either have Distant Counter built in to their weapon (Fjorm), have a weapon with a built-in support skill and existent player-phase performance to deal with ranged red units (Ephraim, Lucina), or can dance (Azura).

A unit's ranking isn't based on how well they can defeat the units above or below them. It's based on how well they perform the job that is required of their color and how many additional jobs they can simultaneously perform.

A red mage needs to both double and have 60+atk to kill Lukas at +10 with his SB, QR, Bonfire build. Armor Tharja doesn't hit 60 atk without a blade tome so she would need Bold fighter and a 2 cooldown special to kill him. Aside from her, only Lilina and maybe Celica can hit 60 atk without blade tomes? With Rallies and spur/drive support, they would need way more than 60 atk. Basically, he can bait and survive most red mages and then kill on the player phase if need be. His additional job is being able to take out axes.

I'm sure I could come up with a build for him that deals with all red mages, swords, and lances, but I'm not interested in a build like that.

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3 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

How do you determine that though? A team of armors, all with with Aether, DC, and Bold Fighter will have very few merges like +2 at most for any of them. A team of mages with  lower SP skills could all have higher merges and still fall in that range.

Because you can't assume any of the unit's teammates. A single unit won't change your score dramatically.

Just because you have Ishtar on your team doesn't mean the remainder of the team is all ranged infantry, and just because you have Hector on your team doesn't mean the remainder of the team is all melee armor.

 

4 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

Based on the score ranges, it seems that it should be the other way around, shouldn't it? Lower BST units should be assumed to have more merges.

Personally, I feel it should be all +0 v +0 or +10 v +10 just for the sake of simplicity.

Advanced-level Arena matches will always match your team up against a team at least as strong as yours.

You may look at Ishtar being compared as +2 against +4 enemies as "relatively high", but Gen 2 melee armors are compared as +2 against +8 enemies.

Using +0 against +0 is not representative of any Arena match-up you will run into in the 710-point range, and +10 against +10 is far above 720 points. Neither of these situations are representative of actual Arena match-ups in the point range that tier list is designed for. If I want to measure my height, I measure my height, not the height of my next-door neighbor.

The tier list is specifically designed for players who are aiming for bouncing between tiers 19 and 20. That is the target audience.

 

10 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

While this is true, I think it is safe to assume that high HP units get no more than 1 stack and low HP units can get as much as 3. Just flat out dismissing it altogether is a pretty ignorant solution.

Besides, on a fully optimized Infantry team, someone gets 1 stack, 2 stacks, and 3 stacks with the highest HP getting none. So for instance, labeling Ishtar as the "2 stack receiver/1 stack giver" should be fair for determining her value as both an offensive threat and a support role. If anything, the fluidity of the roles on an Infantry team just goes to show how powerful they can be.

Where do you draw each line? What do you do with units that fall right next to the line? Do they get shafted by the fact that they are 1 HP too low to reap the benefits of having a stronger Special skill when judging their combat performance? A unit with a pre-charged Ignis is far stronger than a unit with a pre-charged Bonfire.

 

19 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

to kill Lukas at +10

Lukas is +2 for tiering purposes. Tharja is +5.

 

16 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

so she would need Bold fighter

Which she will have for judging purposes on at least one of her builds. It's stronger than Vengeful Fighter.

 

17 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

and a 2 cooldown special

Raudhrowl and Bonfire will activate on her second attack.

 

21 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

but I'm not interested in a build like that.

Whether you are interested in the build or not is irrelevant for tiering.

 

You're basically saying the tier list is wrong because its judging criteria isn't your own Arena score range. It's like looking at a map of France and saying it's wrong because it's an inaccurate depiction of Canada.

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6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The tier list is specifically designed for players who are aiming for bouncing between tiers 19 and 20. That is the target audience.

This explains things very well. I still think it is a strange target audience, but it explains why things are the way they are. There does lie the issue that people bouncing between 19 and 20 typically won't always have things like DC and Bold Fighter at their disposal, so all of the armors at the top is that much more dubious. The enemies you face will be stronger and have these skills, but your units won't always have them. And the tier list assumes a units value in the hands of the player.

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Where do you draw each line? What do you do with units that fall right next to the line? Do they get shafted by the fact that they are 1 HP too low to reap the benefits of having a stronger Special skill when judging their combat performance? A unit with a pre-charged Ignis is far stronger than a unit with a pre-charged Bonfire.

A line should be drawn somewhere as opposed to not at all.

17 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Raudhrowl and Bonfire will activate on her second attack.

If Lukas doesn't counter attack, Tharja would also need the Quickened Pulse seal.

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

You're basically saying the tier list is wrong because its judging criteria isn't your own Arena score range.

I'm sorry if it looks that way. I don't think it is wrong. I just didn't understand why things were the way they were. I have a much better understanding now, so thank you.

Basically the list has very little relevance for the +10 meta. I'm going to just completely avoid any talks or discussions about it from not on.

 

It is kind of ironic that the top players are excluded from the criteria of this list when tier lists are usually only relevant for the highest level of play for a game.

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