Should you level up your lords to above 50?

[Paper Jam]

I don't think it's possible for Jaffar to assassinate the surviving Reed brother, unless you steal the Iron Rune from him first. And I'm not sure that either Matthew or Legault at maximum Thief speed can steal the Iron Rune. UPDATE: The boss data indicate that they could steal the Iron Rune off of Linus, but not off of Lloyd.

The RNG works like this: When you attack, 2 RNs are burned to determine whether you hit or not.

Then, if you hit, one more RN is burned to determine whether you crit or not.

Then, if you crit, one more RN is burned to determine whether you assassinate or not. (50% chance if you're an Assassin fighting a non-boss, 25% if you're an Assassin fighting a boss, 0% if you're not an Assassin, but the RN is burned regardless.)

So if you don't crit, you don't assassinate.

Edited June 14, 2018 by Paper Jam

[Shadow Mir]

On 6/11/2018 at 1:19 PM, Aut said:

I still stand by that it’s an easier map, since you can beat it quite quickly with a really good chance of success, and the other map is, if nothing else, significantly longer (I.E. doesn’t end turn 2), so there are more chances for things to go wrong.

I think you misunderstood what I said. Jaffar does have about a 50% chance to ORKO. With the brave sword (and FIlia’s might). High damage at a kinda OK hit rate (I think it’s a bit more than 65). Approximately a 50% chance of killing him. Pretty nice (and he can kill on enemy phase if player phase fails). I didn’t even factor in crits, since he has that hoplon guard.

You could've given the details earlier... Anyway, the fatal flaw with this strategy, as I see it, is that it's completely dependent on a specific unit that's not guaranteed to show up being recruited.

3 hours ago, Paper Jam said:

I don't think it's possible for Jaffar to assassinate the surviving Reed brother, unless you steal the Iron Rune from him first. And I'm not sure that either Matthew or Legault at maximum Thief speed can steal the Iron Rune. UPDATE: The boss data indicate that they could steal the Iron Rune off of Linus, but not off of Lloyd.

The RNG works like this: When you attack, 2 RNs are burned to determine whether you hit or not.

Then, if you hit, one more RN is burned to determine whether you crit or not.

Then, if you crit, one more RN is burned to determine whether you assassinate or not. (50% chance if you're an Assassin fighting a non-boss, 25% if you're an Assassin fighting a boss, 0% if you're not an Assassin, but the RN is burned regardless.)

So if you don't crit, you don't assassinate.

That wasn't what he was getting at. Anyway, the issue here is that this is completely off the table if Harken didn't show up.

[Paper Jam]

I stand corrected.

Nonetheless, it isn't that hard to make sure that Harken does show up, is it?

[Aut]

21 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

You could've given the details earlier... Anyway, the fatal flaw with this strategy, as I see it, is that it's completely dependent on a specific unit that's not guaranteed to show up being recruited.

That wasn't what he was getting at. Anyway, the issue here is that this is completely off the table if Harken didn't show up.

I mean earlier it was just a side note, it wasn’t the crux of my argument.

I never said that you 100% could always kill Linus, just that it’s possible with Jaffar at base level (which is true). However, I think we can all agree that Harken is 100% superior to Karel as a unit, and comes with a better sword. Sure he’s more annoying to recruit in Kenneth’s PFoD, but not to the point where he’s not worth picking up. Not a guarantee to be sure, but I think most players go for Harken, especially in Jerme’s PFoD.

Edit: you could also go for player phase then enemy phase w/ a silver sword. Sure you have less tries, but it’s a bit more accurate, and not dependent on Harken being recruited.

Edited June 14, 2018 by Aut

[Shadow Mir]

On 6/14/2018 at 3:29 PM, Aut said:

I mean earlier it was just a side note, it wasn’t the crux of my argument.

I never said that you 100% could always kill Linus, just that it’s possible with Jaffar at base level (which is true). However, I think we can all agree that Harken is 100% superior to Karel as a unit, and comes with a better sword. Sure he’s more annoying to recruit in Kenneth’s PFoD, but not to the point where he’s not worth picking up. Not a guarantee to be sure, but I think most players go for Harken, especially in Jerme’s PFoD.

Edit: you could also go for player phase then enemy phase w/ a silver sword. Sure you have less tries, but it’s a bit more accurate, and not dependent on Harken being recruited.

That's true.

As for the part about Pale Flower of Darkness, I cannot speak for anyone else, but I cannot remember the last time I got Jerme's version of said map - I generally see the units that would enable me to get that version of the map as inferior. Which reminds me, I hope that IS doesn't pull this crap about using arbitrary criteria you aren't even told of to determine which way you go ever again. Ugh.

[Slumber]

I always do. As mentioned, Geitz and a better(Though not for LTC) map. Plus, getting Lyn/Eliwood to level 15-20 ASAP and not worrying about them for the rest of the game is nice.

It probably has been nearly 15 years since I last did Lloyd's map.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Slumber

[Kubson]

Yes because Lloyd's chapter is a bitch, fog of war is a piece of shit. You also get Geitz on Linus' chapter, while you get Wallace in Lloyd's chapter. And leveling up your lords only makes them more powerful and better they are then the chance of automatic game over is lower. But hey that's just me.

[Jerry Kuma]

Personally, I don't think it is worth it. Having to do all of that grinding just for one map that is (subjectively) less annoying to go to doesn't sound like a good pay off. Not to mention that if you were to grind all the lords... What's the point of getting Geitz then? You probably aren't even going to use him afterwards considering your lords' strength. Not to mention how hard said grind is.

Lloyd's chapter isn't even that hard. While it is indeed a fog of war chapter, you can simply use torch staves and play a bit more defensively. Not to mention Lloyd himself can be very easily baited and defeated if you planned a bit beforehand.

[DiogoJorge]

Yes, always, skipping the fog chapter is a must, since it doesn't even allow you to use the arena in peace for a few turns while your group moves ahead to finish the boss. Geitz is also better than Wallace and since Lyn and Hector are good units, while Eliwood is barely above average (becoming just as good as Kent as a Knight Lord), it's worth making sure their combined levels are 50 or higher. Wallace is also a pain to rescue since in Lyn Hard mode he doesn't promote.

Edited July 8, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[DisobeyedCargo]

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

Wallace is also a pain to rescue since in Lyn Hard mode he doesn't promote.

Uh

wouldnt he be...easier to rescue because of a Lower con?

as for my answer, depends. If you don't want Geitz and don't mind FOW, or you don't feel like dealing with Lyn and Eliwood who are mediocre units, then don't level the lords 

 

if your using all three lords anyway, your probably gonna get the other map anyway from leveling them, or if you want geitz, then level the lords.

since I like using all three lords and I don't like FOW, I take the easier map 

[ping]

Is one single chapter really so important that it decides which units to use for half the game?

[DisobeyedCargo]

1 minute ago, ping said:

Is one single chapter really so important that it decides which units to use for half the game?

No it's really not 

i only answered so i didn't derail further. 

The easier map probably does help for LTC/HHM runs 

[Cornguy]

I prefer Lloyd's version, but I hate passing up characters with HHM bonuses. But I also enjoy using the lords, despite it not being a great investment.

[ping]

2 hours ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

No it's really not 

i only answered so i didn't derail further. 

The easier map probably does help for LTC/HHM runs 

I didn't mean you specifically - it's just that some posts in the thread read like Lloyd's version is that unsurmountably difficult chapter which is really isn't. I mean, I find Linus' map more fun to play, but I don't think it's worth training all three lords just for this one map.

Like, if I'm training them anyway, I'll probably try to get to Linus' version, too, but I'm not going to feed them XP only for this one map if I don't plan to use them otherwise. It's the same deal with Pale Flower - I like one version (Kenneth's) more than the other, but I don't even recall the exact criteria for which map to go to (something something Hero Crest Users vs. Guiding Ring Users?) and I honestly don't care, either.

Edited July 8, 2018 by ping

[Interdimensional Observer]

6 minutes ago, ping said:

but I don't even recall the exact criteria for which map to go to (something something Hero Crest Users vs. Guiding Ring Users?) and I honestly don't care, either.

Yep. During Eliwood or Hector Mode (EXP from Lyn Mode doesn't count), Dorcas, Guy, Bartre, and Raven have their total EXP gain compared against Serra, Lucius, Erk, and Priscilla, whichever group got more will send you to one or the other PFoD, Jerme for the physicals, Kenneth for the magicals.

[DiogoJorge]

7 hours ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

Uh

wouldnt he be...easier to rescue because of a Lower con?

as for my answer, depends. If you don't want Geitz and don't mind FOW, or you don't feel like dealing with Lyn and Eliwood who are mediocre units, then don't level the lords 

 

if your using all three lords anyway, your probably gonna get the other map anyway from leveling them, or if you want geitz, then level the lords.

since I like using all three lords and I don't like FOW, I take the easier map 

 

The thing is, you don't have to rescue Geitz at all, and having less CON isn't much of a help when there's fog and he has less DEF to endure turns.

They aren't mediocre units. Lyn is an A rank unit, while Eliwood would B rank. it's more favourable to raise them as a result, bonus for skipping a more troublesome map.

[Shadow Mir]

8 hours ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

Uh

wouldnt he be...easier to rescue because of a Lower con?

I'd say that would be a push. Wallace might be easier to rescue if not promoted, but on the other hand, there's still fog, and he has less defense to endure enemy attacks.

43 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

They aren't mediocre units. Lyn is an A rank unit, while Eliwood would B rank. it's more favourable to raise them as a result, bonus for skipping a more troublesome map.

According to whom?

[DisobeyedCargo]

34 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I'd say that would be a push. Wallace might be easier to rescue if not promoted, but on the other hand, there's still fog, and he has less defense to endure enemy attacks.

According to whom?

Fair enough, somehow I  forgot about the lower defense 

 

Yeah... if you don't do Lyn mode, Lyn comes level 3 (I think) with low bases including quite low strength, swordlocked, and her prf will only carry her so far

eliwood cant even double the brigands in his first chapter. His bases are better than lyns (I think going off memory), but his promotion is late in eliwood mode, Hector mode is better, but it is a good promotion. He also starts off swordlocked. Lyn's promotion isn't that good either, only gaining Bow's for pseudo 1-2 range.

all in all, not top tier units 

[DiogoJorge]

14 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I'd say that would be a push. Wallace might be easier to rescue if not promoted, but on the other hand, there's still fog, and he has less defense to endure enemy attacks.

According to whom?

According to their growths and averages.

 

Directed to Disobeyed. Not playing Lyn mode at all, means to play handicapped, Lyn should never be lv 4 by the time she rejoins. You also forget that promotion bonuses are higher than normal for lords and that most bows have higher MT than javelins and handaxes and are more accurate, as well demolishing fliers, which makes up for the fact that those can't attack at 1 range, specially, since you can just place them at the enemy's range limit for Enemy phase, thus ensuring at least 1 attack during enemy phase, which is what is expected of most units.

Edited July 9, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Bartozio]

25 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

According to their growths and averages.

Stats aren't everything though. Before promotion, neither of them have acces to 1-2 range, no mount for more movement and rescue drops, WTD against the most common weapon type
 and no further utility whatsoever (staves, flying, dancing, etc). For that reason alone I'd never consider them A-rank units.

Eliwood fixes those issues by promoting, but Lyn's promotion doesn't do anything to solve these issues.

They could still be good if they were way better at combat then most other units and enemies actually remained scary for most of the game, but neither is true. Enemies start becoming fairly easy to handle by most of your trained units in the mid to late game (which, suprise suprise, is where those better growths start actually showing), and in the early game (where good combat actually matters) Eliwoods bases make him one of the weaker units in your party, and while Lyn does better after Lyn mode, it's still only average compared to the other units you have at that point.

25 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Directed to Disobeyed. Not playing Lyn mode at all, means to play handicapped, Lyn should never be lv 4 by the time she rejoins. You also forget that promotion bonuses are higher than normal for lords and that most bows have higher MT than javelins and handaxes and are more accurate, as well demolishing fliers, which makes up for the fact that those can't attack at 1 range, specially, since you can just place them at the enemy's range limit for Enemy phase, thus ensuring at least 1 attack during enemy phase, which is what is expected of most units.

Most trained units can easily kill two or three enemies during enemy phase at that point, so only countering one is not impressive at all. And considering the game likes to swarm you with weak enemies in this game, a good enemy phase becomes very important.

[DiogoJorge]

29 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

Stats aren't everything though. Before promotion, neither of them have acces to 1-2 range, no mount for more movement and rescue drops, WTD against the most common weapon type
 and no further utility whatsoever (staves, flying, dancing, etc). For that reason alone I'd never consider them A-rank units.

Eliwood fixes those issues by promoting, but Lyn's promotion doesn't do anything to solve these issues.

They could still be good if they were way better at combat then most other units and enemies actually remained scary for most of the game, but neither is true. Enemies start becoming fairly easy to handle by most of your trained units in the mid to late game (which, suprise suprise, is where those better growths start actually showing), and in the early game (where good combat actually matters) Eliwoods bases make him one of the weaker units in your party, and while Lyn does better after Lyn mode, it's still only average compared to the other units you have at that point.

Most trained units can easily kill two or three enemies during enemy phase at that point, so only countering one is not impressive at all. And considering the game likes to swarm you with weak enemies in this game, a good enemy phase becomes very important.

That's fine, since I don't need range much to make them do their part. I would always consider Lyn an A rank unit due to her overall good stats (with the exception of DEF), fast supports and dodgetanking ability. Eliwood would be B rank due to having a slower start. He contributes enough afterwards and makes for a fine tank once promoted , due to good DEF and RES later on.

I would have prefered more promotion gains to a mount to be honest, I already have Kent and Florina/Fiora to save villages and secure treasure chests, so more stats would be preferable.

They don't counter one though, they can counter more during enemy phase if you so wish, I usually have Lyn counter at least 2-3 enemies often enough, which is good

I never experienced those so called swarms other than the mages on the boat chapter and a few others, most of those swarms beyond that chapter use 1 ranged weapons to begin with.

 

[ping]

That's fasciating and all, but could you at least try not to make every topic about how you disagree with the usual metrics for unit quality? Ignoring the part where you repeatedly ignore one of the biggest counterargument against your point (i.e. strong enemies are rather rare in FE7's mid- and lategame) - let us consider two questions.

1. Does the game become considerably more diffucult if you use all three of your lords?
2. Does the game become considerably less difficult if you use all three of your lords?

For a average / casual playthrough, I'm pretty sure the answer to both of these questions is a resounding "NO". In the few chapters where Lyn and Eliwood/Hector are forced, it's pretty easy to keep them out of combat. None of the lords do exceptionally well in the mid- to late game (unless there's a special value in outspeeding the enemy by more than 8 points that I'm not aware of), but they're all reasonably competent if you put the effort into them - which, imho, is true for literally every FE7 character including the axe bros and Karla.

I'm certain there's a point to be made to gun for one of these maps in more challenging playthroughs - LTC, Speedrun, ranked - and although I never tried my hands in any of those (well, iirc, I managed to S rank LHM and ENM a long time ago :D ), I'd wager that Lloyd's version is preferable in LTC and speedruns because it can be one-turned pretty easily if you don't care about full recruitment. Not sure how things are in ranked, though - the 50 levels requirement probably digs into your XP count because of HHM's XP curve, but I wouldn't know if that's a real issue.

But the point is - all this isn't relevant for most playthroughs. In the end, it's just that one map is a bit trickier if you go in blindly because Ballistae+FoW and Wallace's position (although shouldn't a thief with a torch help with that even if you don't want to visit fireemblemWOD?), but can be finished very quick if you know about the enemy positioning, plus a better recruitable unit on Linus' map. I can see why people consider Linus' version to be preferrable or advisable, but to say that it's wrong or bad to go for Lloyd (or not to specifcally go for either) is such an overstatement.

[DiogoJorge]

19 hours ago, ping said:

That's fasciating and all, but could you at least try not to make every topic about how you disagree with the usual metrics for unit quality? Ignoring the part where you repeatedly ignore one of the biggest counterargument against your point (i.e. strong enemies are rather rare in FE7's mid- and lategame) - let us consider two questions.

1. Does the game become considerably more diffucult if you use all three of your lords?
2. Does the game become considerably less difficult if you use all three of your lords?

For a average / casual playthrough, I'm pretty sure the answer to both of these questions is a resounding "NO". In the few chapters where Lyn and Eliwood/Hector are forced, it's pretty easy to keep them out of combat. None of the lords do exceptionally well in the mid- to late game (unless there's a special value in outspeeding the enemy by more than 8 points that I'm not aware of), but they're all reasonably competent if you put the effort into them - which, imho, is true for literally every FE7 character including the axe bros and Karla.

I'm certain there's a point to be made to gun for one of these maps in more challenging playthroughs - LTC, Speedrun, ranked - and although I never tried my hands in any of those (well, iirc, I managed to S rank LHM and ENM a long time ago :D ), I'd wager that Lloyd's version is preferable in LTC and speedruns because it can be one-turned pretty easily if you don't care about full recruitment. Not sure how things are in ranked, though - the 50 levels requirement probably digs into your XP count because of HHM's XP curve, but I wouldn't know if that's a real issue.

But the point is - all this isn't relevant for most playthroughs. In the end, it's just that one map is a bit trickier if you go in blindly because Ballistae+FoW and Wallace's position (although shouldn't a thief with a torch help with that even if you don't want to visit fireemblemWOD?), but can be finished very quick if you know about the enemy positioning, plus a better recruitable unit on Linus' map. I can see why people consider Linus' version to be preferrable or advisable, but to say that it's wrong or bad to go for Lloyd (or not to specifcally go for either) is such an overstatement.

 

I don't ignore it though, I just don't agree with them. Also, the enemies don't need to be particularly strong, they only need to be numerous enough in Blazing Sword's case. That's pretty much the difference between Sacred Stones and Blazing Sword, Sacred Stones has less enemies and some of them are even weaker, while Blazing Sword has it's share of having some powerfull enemies mixed in with the weaker ones while being more numerous later on. That's why Sacred Stones is easy even on it's harder difficulty, while HHM is a genuine challenge.

1. No it doesn't, it becomes easier if I use all three lords. Since now, I have even more powerfull units.

2. Yes it does, since not only I skipped a worse chapter, but now I have 3 more good units propely trained (one of them, Hector, being the best unit in the game).

 

Edited July 10, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Jerry Kuma]

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

 

I don't ignore it though, I just don't agree with them. Also, the enemies don't need to be particularly strong, they only need to be numerous enough in Blazing Sword's case. That's pretty much the difference between Sacred Stones and Blazing Sword, Sacred Stones has less enemies and some of them are even weaker, while Blazing Sword has it's share of having some powerfull enemies mixed in with the weaker ones while being more numerous later on. That's why Sacred Stones is easy even on it's harder difficulty, while HHM is a genuine challenge.

1. No it doesn't, it becomes easier if I use all three lords. Since now, I have even more powerfull units.

2. Yes it does, since not only I skipped a worse chapter, but now I have 3 more good units propely trained (one of them, Hector, being the best unit in the game).

 

First of all: If you don't agree with a point someone is making, you explain why you disagree with their point -- not ignore their point. That's how a discussion goes.

While Lyn may have high growth rates, it's not really going towards the stats that actually matter. Yeah, having a growth rate of 60% in speed sounds cool and all, however it's really overkill. And it really doesn't matter if you actually aren't capable of doing much damage in the first place. In her mode, she starts off with a base strength of 4, compared to Sain and Kent who has 8 and 6 base strength in the first place. Lyn's strength growth also is very decent, with her on average getting 10 strength by level 16!

And yea, Kent's strength growth is the same (with it also being 40%). However Kent starts off with a higher base and has 6 defense, compared to Lyn's 2. Allowing him to still do something damage-wise even if he was RNG-screwed in that stat.

 Lyn's poor defenses really holds her back. While she could potentially be a dodge tank, if she was to get hit even once it could really cripple her due to her poor base defense and her abysmal growth in that stat.

So while having Lyn isn't necessarily the worst thing in the world, she is a real liability even when trained. Since even if she were to promote at level 20, she would still on average have 11 defense, which some of your other units (specifically Sain and Kent) either have or has surpassed way before she promotes (considering that they can both be promoted MUCH EARLIER then she does). Lyn upon promotion also gains bow-use which while is something, makes her even more vulnerable on enemy phase.

Eliwood on the other hand, he's average. Just average. He is also sword-locked in a game where most enemies have lances and magic. Since he's average, he's not really excelling in one particular stat, which is actually a bad thing. Even at level 20, he won't be a remarkable fighter unpromoted and would easily be outmatched by mostly everyone. While his promotion is amazing (giving him more movement and the ability to use lances, giving him a chance against lance users) he could still be slightly outdone by your other units.

Hector is good, but he certainly isn't the best. His low movement (which he will never gain any more of) holds him back from being effective on the battlefield. That alone really takes him down some pegs since having high movement allows a unit to assist, rescue, and attack enemies quicker. Which the latter can really determine if he lives or not.

So in the end: it isn't really worth training the three lords. Considering that all of them except for Hector would end up as very decent units who have been outperformed by most other units even when trained. I rather just do the one hard FoW chapter rather than spend more time feeding kills to units who, as stated before would be outperformed by almost everyone else anyways.

[ping]

2 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

2. Yes it does, since not only I skipped a worse chapter, but now I have 3 more good units propely trained (one of them, Hector, being the best unit in the game).

Hector is the best unit in the game for precisely one chapter. His earlygame is still very strong, but he is immediately outclassed by Marcus (which isn't a big deal since everyone is outclassed by Marcus) and other units will start to overtake him when their defense grow into "good enough" territory. His mid- to lategame isn't top tier anymore, especially in his own mode because of his very late promotion in it. He's good (like 7-8 / 10 good), but more limited than quite a few other units.

The tradeoff isn't "LEH vs. nothing", the tradeoff is LEH vs. three other units" (or any partial exchange). And as I already said, FE7's lords are certainly not in a tier of their own. "More good units" really doesn't matter, given that you can't deploy your entire roster anyway, especially on HHM (can't remember if EHM's deployment numbers quite as low as HHM's, but iirc they're at least lower than in ENM and HNM).