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Ronman5

The problem with Laguz and Beast units...

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Now I get Laguz/Taguels/Kitsunes/Wolfsengers are wanted picks to be in heroes... I highly doubt it for many reasons... so lets start..

1. they would need to figure out how to make Beast units work... Sure it doesn't sound right... but these aren't dragons... they don't use "Breath" skills.. they would need to figure out how to get them to be usuable by using a certain type... Laguz are even tougher as they don't transform back and forth like Taguels and the other units do... Which means they would have to add a gauge system... or keep them fully transformed at all times....

2. Weaknesses- the one thing that also works against them is they would need to update EVERY FIRE, THUNDER and WIND Spell for the laguz… and keep the others out of it (As fire doesn't hurt Wolfsengers/etc) Now for Dragons they can just make them dragon "Type" and hawks they can make "Flying" units... I guess beast units would be Calvary? This is as a note because Wolfsengers and Taguels are weak to Beast killers (which in Fates effects horses too) 

 

Now I think they can put in White/Black/Red dragons in the game... but that's only what... Ena, Dhegensea, Kurth, Nasir, and Gareth.... so 5... maybe 6 units? (because Rajijon) Dragon laguz is probally least likely... Beast laguz is the most likely as there is a good 15 units that are beast laguz.. (or more?) with Bird laguz being second... 

The main problem is Laguz and beast units are SUPER obscure... only 30 to 40 units of the few thousand Fire emblem characters (That's counting playable/Unplayable/NPC/story characters) 

 

I don't think they would add a new type for just such a niche group... its a headache to implement them and to create them as a whole! theres also the likeliness people would actually BUY said units (Remember only two laguz were top 10... Ranulf and TIbarn…)

 

Honestly I get why people are upset over alts and want "New" things like Laguz units... but I think your just out their preaching to the empty stadium... Theres a reason Genealogy, Thracia, Radiant Dawn, and Path of radiance have been avoided a lot... Genealogy isn't brought up as much in the modern era (Compared to Shadow dragon and its remakes... FE 7 is beloved, FE 6 is beloved... etc.) Thracia was one of the worst selling fire emblem titles... and Path of radiance/ Radiant Dawn didn't sell like hotcakes either... It makes sense for them to lure people in with the popular crowd... aka the familiar faces for newcomers (Awakening/Fates/SOV crew...) and faces for veterans who probally started with the GBA series (Which a lot of people probally did after Marth and Roy were in smash drawing peoples attention so yeah...) Shadow dragon is there as its the companies beginning in the series as a whole....

 

For them to avoid beast units makes sense... like 100% sense... yet I know no one will really care and just pester them while shouting "WE DONT WANT ALTS WE WANT NEW UNITS" The fact is.. IS is probally running out of units they can easily profit from... that's probally why we get updates every month now which feature a lot more options.. and certain units getting your attention for their weapon (or new weapon) being able to get refined... its they have a character they think they can get more profit from so they add something new to make the character more desirable...

 

Anyways this is was my thoughts.... for a long while after I heard how much people wanted Ranulf and Tibarn… 

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Dude, they can just work like the dragons, except with claws and beaks and stuff rather than breaths. And the herons can be like dancers/singers, only shapeshifting to do those things. And their attack would be magic.

We don't need their gauges or anything, and to account for their weaknesses, put beasts in green, birds in blue, and dragons in red. Then they're all still weak to the right elements.

Other characters don't actually work exactly as they do in-game. Roy's weapon doesn't have built-in DC. Ninian couldn't actually fight as a dragon in FE7. Frederick's preferred weapon appeared to be the lance, not the axe. And so on.

The beast units and laguz are pretty much the most wanted characters right now given how well they scored in CYL2, so IS can't keep them out for long.

Edited by Anacybele

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29 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

And the herons can be like dancers/singers, only shapeshifting to do those things. And their attack would be magic.

 

Their weapons can be the magic cards from Tellius, the only way they had to attack

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40 minutes ago, SniperGYS said:

Their weapons can be the magic cards from Tellius, the only way they had to attack

Yeah, that too.

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Like Ana said, FEH already takes a lot of liberties with ingame performance.  All they have to do is pick a different symbol, and make them just like the dragons except with the "strike" symbol.  They then transform when they attack like the dragons do.  No need to import transformation gauges, considering this game works differently.

Beast units really don't have to be that hard- IS doesn't need to keep avoid them.  And I think, if done something like dragons, they would be a good money maker.  Plus, do Tellius fans really have to be shafted all of the time?  It may not be the most popular game, but they do have some fans, and more can be converted with decent design and stats for the laguz, especially the herons.  Flying dancers?  I imagine those would sell very well.

Edited by Venmi

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Laguz units certainly are more interesting and add variety to the gameplay. I was hoping IS would take us to the Kingdom of Hatari east past the desert. Maybe, we would run into a Heron type Clan that had used the forbidden magic and no longer represented balance.

Maybe, Ike wandered his way east on his journey to master the sword. Certainly a lot more detail and characterization for them in PoR and RD vs manaketes in Awakenings. 

As for the sales for PoR & RD, that is entirely on Nintendo deciding not to distribute more units past the initial shipments or giving it a good marketing campaign. I was an Asst. Mgr at an Electronics Boutique at the time before the Game Stop merger. We received 2-10 copies per store in the area dependent on pre-orders. I had 8 POs, and they sent me 10 copies total. 

There is obviously the demand for digital release for both games on a Nintendo platform, but they are just not interested or want to dedicate any resource to it.  

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2. Weaknesses- the one thing that also works against them is they would need to update EVERY FIRE, THUNDER and WIND Spell for the laguz… and keep the others out of it (As fire doesn't hurt Wolfsengers/etc) Now for Dragons they can just make them dragon "Type" and hawks they can make "Flying" units... I guess beast units would be Calvary? This is as a note because Wolfsengers and Taguels are weak to Beast killers (which in Fates effects horses too) 



Laguz could take the colour against whose magic type they're weak.

beast laguz / taguel / FE14's beasts: green
bird laguz: blue
dragon laguz: red

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It also wouldn't be too difficult to set a laguz as a hero character.  Just give them the half-shift ability so transform isn't such an impediment but allow the gauge to reach full which would give you the standard shift without penalties. You could call it morph or transform. As for attacks, unshifted: punch half-shift: strike transform: claw, etc.

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7 hours ago, Ronman5 said:

they don't use "Breath" skills.. they would need to figure out how to get them to be usuable by using a certain type...

Add strikes as a new weapon type.

If all beasts are green, all birds are blue, and all dragons are red, then it would also easily solve the problem of Skill Inheritance because you can always lock weapons and skills to a specific color of strike.

 

7 hours ago, Ronman5 said:

Laguz are even tougher as they don't transform back and forth like Taguels and the other units do... Which means they would have to add a gauge system... or keep them fully transformed at all times....

There's zero reason to use anything different than the current dragons use.

In Mystery of the Emblem, dragonstone items will transform the unit into dragon form for a fixed number of turns with an infinite-use breath weapon while transformed. They didn't feel the need to make Mystery Tiki keep this system, so I don't see any reason why they should need to make the Laguz behave any differently than the dragons currently do in Heroes.

 

7 hours ago, Ronman5 said:

Weaknesses- the one thing that also works against them is they would need to update EVERY FIRE, THUNDER and WIND Spell for the laguz… and keep the others out of it (As fire doesn't hurt Wolfsengers/etc) Now for Dragons they can just make them dragon "Type" and hawks they can make "Flying" units... I guess beast units would be Calvary? This is as a note because Wolfsengers and Taguels are weak to Beast killers (which in Fates effects horses too)

If beasts are green, birds are blue, and dragons are red, then they are all naturally weak to the proper elemental magic.

In Heroes, swords are weak to thunder magic and blue dragons, which is not the case in any main-series Fire Emblem game, so I don't see any reason why they would need to make sure non-Laguz beasts are not weak to fire. It's fine to break some of the rules of the source game to make this game consistent.

 

7 hours ago, Ronman5 said:

Now I think they can put in White/Black/Red dragons in the game... but that's only what... Ena, Dhegensea, Kurth, Nasir, and Gareth.... so 5... maybe 6 units? (because Rajijon) Dragon laguz is probally least likely... Beast laguz is the most likely as there is a good 15 units that are beast laguz.. (or more?) with Bird laguz being second... 

The main problem is Laguz and beast units are SUPER obscure... only 30 to 40 units of the few thousand Fire emblem characters (That's counting playable/Unplayable/NPC/story characters)

This game currently has a grand total of two red breath users. I don't think a weapon type having too few users is an issue.

 

7 hours ago, Ronman5 said:

I don't think they would add a new type for just such a niche group... its a headache to implement them and to create them as a whole! theres also the likeliness people would actually BUY said units (Remember only two laguz were top 10... Ranulf and TIbarn…)

I literally created like 20 strike weapons in another thread over the course of something like an hour. Implementation is also not an issue, coming from a software developer.

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I'm in agreement with everyone else on this thread--it's a mobile game, no one expects them to try to work in the gauge system from Tellius.

I do think adding a whole new type of weapon is a big change though, so I imagine we won't see any laguz until version 3. Book 3 would be a good time to add something big like that anyway, like how Book 2 added the Legendary Heroes.

Edited by Solvaij

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9 minutes ago, Solvaij said:

it's a mobile game

That is exactly not the reason, though. Being a mobile game has absolutely nothing to do with it.

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2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

That is exactly not the reason, though. Being a mobile game has absolutely nothing to do with it.

What would be the point of gauges on maps that are 6x8 squares and last like 6 turns? I'll say it again. No one is expecting every single detail from the actual games to be in place in the mobile version--the pocket version. Mobile as in you can play it on the bus or while waiting in line.

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2 minutes ago, Solvaij said:

What would be the point of gauges on maps that are 6x8 squares and last like 6 turns? I'll say it again. No one is expecting every single detail from the actual games to be in place in the mobile version--the pocket version. Mobile as in you can play it on the bus or while waiting in line.

Literally none of those features are things that are inherent to the fact that the game is designed for the mobile platform.

The Game Boy Advance is almost as mobile as a modern smart device with an even smaller screen resolution, but fully fledged Fire Emblem games were developed just fine for the platform (and I'm pretty sure you can emulate the games on a mobile device just fine, as well). The Nintendo 3DS even has a smaller footprint than a modern smart device and is only twice as thick as common phone cases I see, yet Awakening and Fates were released for and play just fine on it.

Being a mobile game means nothing for the amount of complexity a game is allowed to include.

Short engagements and small maps are the biggest reason why the Laguz transformation gauges are unlikely to be implemented, but short engagements and small maps are not necessitated by the mobile gaming platform. If this game were ported with 100% fidelity to 3DS or any other system, even as a browser game, it would still be unlikely that Laguz transformation gauges would be implemented due to the game's "lite" design, not because of the platform it is being run on.

Mobile games are no more or less games than console games and handheld games are.

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18 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Literally none of those features are things that are inherent to the fact that the game is designed for the mobile platform.

The Game Boy Advance is almost as mobile as a modern smart device with an even smaller screen resolution, but fully fledged Fire Emblem games were developed just fine for the platform (and I'm pretty sure you can emulate the games on a mobile device just fine, as well). The Nintendo 3DS even has a smaller footprint than a modern smart device and is only twice as thick as common phone cases I see, yet Awakening and Fates were released for and play just fine on it.

Being a mobile game means nothing for the amount of complexity a game is allowed to include.

Short engagements and small maps are the biggest reason why the Laguz transformation gauges are unlikely to be implemented, but short engagements and small maps are not necessitated by the mobile gaming platform. If this game were ported with 100% fidelity to 3DS or any other system, even as a browser game, it would still be unlikely that Laguz transformation gauges would be implemented due to the game's "lite" design, not because of the platform it is being run on.

Mobile games are no more or less games than console games and handheld games are.

Well now you're just being doplomantic.

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The thing that "necessitates" short engagements and small maps, if anything, are the control limitations imposed by a purely touch-based system rather than having discrete buttons.

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4 minutes ago, Reiska said:

The thing that "necessitates" short engagements and small maps, if anything, are the control limitations imposed by a purely touch-based system rather than having discrete buttons.

It actually doesn't. If you remove the tap-and-drag interface for moving units and made dragging scroll the map (zoom with the usual pinch/expand gesture), you could have arbitrarily large maps and long engagements.

But I digress. This is getting off-topic.

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14 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Dude, they can just work like the dragons, except with claws and beaks and stuff rather than breaths. And the herons can be like dancers/singers, only shapeshifting to do those things. And their attack would be magic.

^^^
This. Hell--I'd even be fine with them giving Reyson [Dirge of Ruin ] as his attack spell. (i.e. that thing he was about to use at the Serenes Forest Alter) 

In B4 Naesela and Tibarn break Flier Emblem
 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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I don't think magic weaknesses matter at all. In Heroes, thunder magic has weapon triangle advantage against swords and dark magic, which has never been true in any previous game. Male Grima is weak to armor-slaying weapons. Elincia has no weakness to (non-Excalibur) wind magic, and in fact has weapon triangle advantage against it. If Haar and Jill ever get added, they won't be weak to thunder magic or wind magic, but will be weak to bows, even if it's their FE10 versions.

Dragon laguz will most likely be added at some point as normal breath units, in any of the colors. It's possible that they'll assign each type to a different color, but based on how they've been handling other dragon colors, I wouldn't expect even that to be a hard and fast rule. Beast shifters (both Laguz and the 3DS ones) will also most likely get added at some point, spread out among the colors in the same way as dragons and having normal combat with their own weapon type. Bird Laguz are a bit more tenuous since they're a smaller group and exclusively Tellius, but I think they'll get around to it eventually.

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@Othin

From a practical standpoint, there's no good reason to not put all Laguz of one tribe in a single color. The strongest argument for this is not because of the magic weaknesses, but because of Skill Inheritance.

Spreading out beast and bird Laguz units across colors means that the game needs six new weapon types (assuming no need for colorless versions),

  1. red claw/fang,
  2. blue claw/fang,
  3. green claw/fang,
  4. red talon/beak,
  5. blue talon/beak, and
  6. green talon/beak,

in order to make skill inheritance work reasonably, namely to prevent birds from inheriting claws and to prevent beasts from inheriting beaks. Hard-coding a flag on each individual character to indicate whether they are a beast or a bird in order to use only three strike weapons (one for each color) instead of six (one for each color and Laguz tribe combination) is a rather stupid thing to do from a technical standpoint when the game already has a perfectly good system that already does the exact same thing, but this would mean adding a huge number of additional weapon types, which is not ideal (for a trivial reason why, we'll run out of space in the Skill Inheritance restrictions list of icons).

With a single Laguz tribe as a single color of strike, this is alleviated by only needing two weapon types, blue strike and green strike.

 

Sure, this would result in an influx of even more blue fliers, but I don't consider that to be an issue. Armors are already predominantly green, fliers predominantly blue, and infantry predominantly red, and I don't consider that to be a problem.

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Considering that only bows have a universal effectiveness vs a particular movement type/unit class, I would be content with Beasts/Birds only needing the standard weapon triangle to represent their elemental weaknesses (so green and blue, respectively). Dragon Laguz don't need to be any different from other manaketes, but we are currently short on red breath users.

Birds would naturally be weak to bows, and dragons to dragon slayers. For beasts, I would suggest making them a new unit class that is weak to beastslayers (different weapons than horse slayers). I like the idea of them being infantry movement and have the ability to walk over forests unhindered.

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19 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

From a practical standpoint, there's no good reason to not put all Laguz of one tribe in a single color.

Would not it actually be easier for them to implement Laguz like dragons who can be any color but all have one common "Strike" Weapon that you have proposed before? It will be even easier than creating three separate Weapon types.

They can still put most beast Laguz in green, birds in blue, and dragons in red, but they also have the option to mix things up by releasing blue beast Laguz or something to capture attention and drive sales.

Edited by XRay

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13 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

From a practical standpoint, there's no good reason to not put all Laguz of one tribe in a single color. The strongest argument for this is not because of the magic weaknesses, but because of Skill Inheritance.

Spreading out beast and bird Laguz units across colors means that the game needs six new weapon types (assuming no need for colorless versions),

  1. red claw/fang,
  2. blue claw/fang,
  3. green claw/fang,
  4. red talon/beak,
  5. blue talon/beak, and
  6. green talon/beak,

in order to make skill inheritance work reasonably, namely to prevent birds from inheriting claws and to prevent beasts from inheriting beaks. Hard-coding a flag on each individual character to indicate whether they are a beast or a bird in order to use only three strike weapons (one for each color) instead of six (one for each color and Laguz tribe combination) is a rather stupid thing to do from a technical standpoint when the game already has a perfectly good system that already does the exact same thing, but this would mean adding a huge number of additional weapon types, which is not ideal (for a trivial reason why, we'll run out of space in the Skill Inheritance restrictions list of icons).

With a single Laguz tribe as a single color of strike, this is alleviated by only needing two weapon types, blue strike and green strike.

 

Or you can just remove the Talon/Claw distinction. Already you're blurring two distinctions from RD: Cats have Claws, Fangs are for Lions, Wolves and Tigers; Hawks have Talons, Ravens have Beaks.

As for naming things claws and talons and whatnot. Easy, generic inheritable Strikes have "Strike" in the name, never a body part. Noninheritables, like Tibarn's Great Talon can have a body part in the name, since to use the Great Talon case there is no chance of a Raven or Cat getting it.

This means we can divvy up the Laguz species evenly across all colors (unless Colorless gets into the picture). Tibarn can be Red, Janaff Blue, Ulki Green, etc.. I prefer the way this works.

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37 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

@Othin

From a practical standpoint, there's no good reason to not put all Laguz of one tribe in a single color. The strongest argument for this is not because of the magic weaknesses, but because of Skill Inheritance.

Spreading out beast and bird Laguz units across colors means that the game needs six new weapon types (assuming no need for colorless versions),

  1. red claw/fang,
  2. blue claw/fang,
  3. green claw/fang,
  4. red talon/beak,
  5. blue talon/beak, and
  6. green talon/beak,

in order to make skill inheritance work reasonably, namely to prevent birds from inheriting claws and to prevent beasts from inheriting beaks. Hard-coding a flag on each individual character to indicate whether they are a beast or a bird in order to use only three strike weapons (one for each color) instead of six (one for each color and Laguz tribe combination) is a rather stupid thing to do from a technical standpoint when the game already has a perfectly good system that already does the exact same thing, but this would mean adding a huge number of additional weapon types, which is not ideal (for a trivial reason why, we'll run out of space in the Skill Inheritance restrictions list of icons).

With a single Laguz tribe as a single color of strike, this is alleviated by only needing two weapon types, blue strike and green strike.

 

Sure, this would result in an influx of even more blue fliers, but I don't consider that to be an issue. Armors are already predominantly green, fliers predominantly blue, and infantry predominantly red, and I don't consider that to be a problem.

That assumes different colors are fully different weapon types, which isn't necessary. From the start, we've had breaths as one weapon type with three color variations (now four), and recently they gave bows the same treatment. So the game could easily have red/blue/green claws as one weapon type and red/blue/green talons as a second one. That wouldn't add any more space to the SI screen than your proposal, and if they're that willing to let bows have those variations, I don't think they'd have a problem with giving strikes the same treatment, either.

I think it could even be done as one weapon type if they cared that much, without a need for a separate hard-coded flag. Most likely, beasts would be exclusively infantry while birds would be exclusively fliers, so they could just have claws be infantry-locked strikes while talons are flier-locked strikes. But I don't think they'd care enough to bother.

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1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

This means we can divvy up the Laguz species evenly across all colors (unless Colorless gets into the picture). Tibarn can be Red, Janaff Blue, Ulki Green, etc.. I prefer the way this works.

Yeah thats the sensible way to do it.

The precedent was set with manaketes--they were randomly thrown into the color wheel (i.e. Fae @ Green, Nowi  @ Blue, Tiki @ Red) with no real reasoning for it from the games in which they originally appeared, purely for the sake of having maneketes available in every color.

There's nothing stopping them from just going: alright. Tibarn is Blue. Naesela is Green. Caineghis ir Red. There--one in every color.

In terms of classifications and weaknesses--I think the most sensible way to do it is to give Dragon Laguz weakness to anti-dragon weaponry. Bird laguz weakness to anti-flier weaponry. And Beast Laguz weakness to anti-cavalry weaponry.

I don't know if I would outright classify beast laguz as cavalry units for the purposes of horse emblem buffs, but I'd be fine with them having 3 movement.  

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50 minutes ago, XRay said:

Would not it actually be easier for them to implement Laguz like dragons who can be any color but all have one common "Strike" Weapon that you have proposed before? It will be even easier than creating three separate Weapon types.

They can still put most beast Laguz in green, birds in blue, and dragons in red, but they also have the option to mix things up by releasing blue beast Laguz or something to capture attention and drive sales.

48 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Or you can just remove the Talon/Claw distinction. Already you're blurring two distinctions from RD: Cats have Claws, Fangs are for Lions, Wolves and Tigers; Hawks have Talons, Ravens have Beaks.

As for naming things claws and talons and whatnot. Easy, generic inheritable Strikes have "Strike" in the name, never a body part. Noninheritables, like Tibarn's Great Talon can have a body part in the name, since to use the Great Talon case there is no chance of a Raven or Cat getting it.

This means we can divvy up the Laguz species evenly across all colors (unless Colorless gets into the picture). Tibarn can be Red, Janaff Blue, Ulki Green, etc.. I prefer the way this works.

Because weapons being called "Sharp Strike" and "Long Strike" and "Poison Strike" sound utterly dumb compared to "Sharp Fang" and "Long Talon" and "Poison Claw".

I know they don't have a reputation for not making dumb decisions (ignoring the dumb things that the localization team has done because those don't affect this), but I'd hope someone at least has the aesthetic sense to consider those "Strike" weapon names to be ugly.

 

52 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Or you can just remove the Talon/Claw distinction. Already you're blurring two distinctions from RD: Cats have Claws, Fangs are for Lions, Wolves and Tigers; Hawks have Talons, Ravens have Beaks.

Cats also have fangs. Lions, wolves, and tigers also have claws. Hawks also have beaks. Ravens also have talons.

In fact, in Path of Radiance, lions and tigers used claws instead of fangs and hawks used beaks instead of talons.

 

29 minutes ago, Othin said:

So the game could easily have red/blue/green claws as one weapon type and red/blue/green talons as a second one.

2 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

The precedent was set with manaketes

The problem is not what they can do. It's what makes sense to do.

Unlike dragons, where there is a large enough number of characters that could be represented, considering we not only have a decent smattering of playable dragons (helped by the fact that Corrin and Kana have gendered variants), but also the fact that a large proportion of the game's final bosses are dragons, the entire series has a total of six Bird Tribe units. That's two for each color at the absolute maximum excluding alts. It simply doesn't make sense to split them by tribe and then again by color.

 

43 minutes ago, Othin said:

That wouldn't add any more space to the SI screen than your proposal,

Everyone who has been playing for a while should have at least one copy of Fortify Dragons lying around (from male Kana). Go and take a look at the Skill Inheritance restriction list in the skill description. Tell me how many more icons will fit on that line before it wraps and looks hideous.

(Actually, it's a pretty nice coincidence that the answer is "three".)

There's a reason why the staff weapons and assist skills list who can learn the skill as opposed to who can't.

 

43 minutes ago, Othin said:

and if they're that willing to let bows have those variations,

Let's be honest. That was a publicity stunt.

The only other colored bow users I can actually see them adding to the game are characters with unique weapons that have an elemental relationship.

 

49 minutes ago, Othin said:

I think it could even be done as one weapon type if they cared that much, without a need for a separate hard-coded flag. Most likely, beasts would be exclusively infantry while birds would be exclusively fliers, so they could just have claws be infantry-locked strikes while talons are flier-locked strikes. But I don't think they'd care enough to bother.

Weapons are the only skills that don't list their Skill Inheritance restrictions. What's the point of making things more complicated than the simple system we already have?

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