Training Mafia 3.0: Advanced - GAMEOVER

[Makaze]

My PoE as the moment:

Town

@RADicate (Mentor: @Walrein)
@Rapier (Mentor: @eclipse)
@XnadrojX - Bomb Moss (Mentor: @undine's breath - Lenny)

Town Lean

@Junk (Junko)

Mixed Pings (Townsided)

@athena_57 (Mentor: @Refa)

Mixed Pings (Scumsided)

@Mackc2 (Mentor: @Magnificence Incarnate - Marth)

Null-ish Scum Lean (Haven't done homework)

@SatsumaFSoysoy (Mentor: @Vi-astra)@EvanManManMan (Mentor: @Shinori)
@Fable 




@Zeonth (Mentor: @Alette)

[Mackc2]

2 minutes ago, Fable said:

What caused the quick shift here?

Also explain the second thought? If either are wolves why would they care if they actually got the wagon or not? 

Going to assume you where supposed to quote the post before this as well, I had a chat with my mentor and I was told I should think about why people would make certain actions as factions. I don't think scum would tunnel a person unless they where getting wagons to form, otherwise they are just making it hard for them to naturally change their vote to consolidate with their scumbuddies cause everyone is going to ask why they decided that the person who got lynched was more sus than the person they had tunnelled the rest of the round. Instead I think they would act more non-comital towards their pushes because they aren't trying to find scum they are trying to blend in with town and mislynch town and continuing to push a wagon with no-one on it doesn't accomplish either of these. So I think Bart V Xand is just two frustrated town who are sure the other is scum. 

[Makaze]

wtf it posted out of nowhere. sigh

list incomplete, finishing

 

My PoE at the moment:

Town

@RADicate (Mentor: @Walrein)
@Rapier (Mentor: @eclipse)
@XnadrojX - Bomb Moss (Mentor: @undine's breath - Lenny)

Town Lean

@Junk (Junko)

Mixed Pings (Townsided)

@athena_57 (Mentor: @Refa)

Mixed Pings (Scumsided)

@Mackc2 (Mentor: @Magnificence Incarnate - Marth)

Null-ish Scum Lean (Haven't done homework)

@SatsumaFSoysoy (Mentor: @Vi-astra)

Scum Lean

@EvanManManMan (Mentor: @Shinori) // His entrance was bad, but then his posts later weren't terrible, but he dropped off the earth. sticking with first impressions until further impressions exist

Scum

@Fable 

Null (No homework)

@Fenrir Aesir (Mentor: @Fenraiser)
@Zeonth (Mentor: @Alette)

[Fable]

Just now, Mackc2 said:

Going to assume you where supposed to quote the post before this as well, I had a chat with my mentor and I was told I should think about why people would make certain actions as factions. I don't think scum would tunnel a person unless they where getting wagons to form, otherwise they are just making it hard for them to naturally change their vote to consolidate with their scumbuddies cause everyone is going to ask why they decided that the person who got lynched was more sus than the person they had tunnelled the rest of the round. Instead I think they would act more non-comital towards their pushes because they aren't trying to find scum they are trying to blend in with town and mislynch town and continuing to push a wagon with no-one on it doesn't accomplish either of these. So I think Bart V Xand is just two frustrated town who are sure the other is scum. 

Counterpoint: You shouldn't assume wolves consolidate every single time. They do often yeah but my own advice to you is don't assume there's always some master plan, if no wolves are getting heat then they can be pretty free to do what they want sometimes, this will be something to come back to at the start of D2 I think so we'll see how thing shake out here first. 

[Bartozio]

1 hour ago, XnadrojX said:

 

I mean, you literally said 

so I'd say it's pretty reasonable to read your post as you saying you actually said Athena was being dumb.

I meant to say that was how I interpreted it (and thus, how you meant it), instead of you factually saying it. I can see I didn't word it well, so apologies.

1 hour ago, XnadrojX said:

Again, after they said it was a joke, what are you expecting me to gain out of it? And if I did gain any reads or anything out of it, do I need to state it? In fact, I think that whole interaction was pretty worthwhile because now you've tried to push me in a way I can't see town doing.

What would I expect you to gain? Any kind of a read? A chance to attempt to move out of rvs? Did I really not make that clear yet?

Even if you feel it turned out useful in the end, I call BS on you expecting it to be usefull when the conversation just ended, which was my point.

1 hour ago, XnadrojX said:

Yes, "Joking" is that strong of an answer. Does one need a reason to joke in RVS? Is joking in RVS alignment indicative? No, and No. I'm not going to analyze something that isn't worth analyzing.

During rvs, you can literaly play anything off as a joke. Heck, even if he was joking, he was still attempting to start something. If I was expecting someone to be trying to pull some kind of scummy stunt, him answering it was just a joke would not convince me in the least.

If you feel analyzing rvs is pointless (even during rvs), sure. It means games will never pick from your doing, so you'll always rely on other players to get things going. If everyone played like that, D1 would just be roulette. But sure, you can play like that.

1 hour ago, XnadrojX said:

So you can see people thinking I'm Town for showing emotion, but you think I'm scum for showing emotion? So how about you delve a little into how showing emotion makes me scum, why you can see how showing emotion can lead to me getting townread, and telling us why you disagree and think I fit the scum case instead of the town case?

Someone thinking scum would be less open and thus try to hide their emotion makes sense. I think scum can just not be great at hiding their emotions though. You being annoyed when someone tries to start something with you during rvs feels scummy, because should love the chance to get the ball rolling. Basicly, I din't think you showing emotion itself is scummy, I think the particular emotion you showed at that time was scummy.

1 hour ago, XnadrojX said:

Throwing shade is literally saying you think someone is scum but done discreetly.

Uh, the point was about me asking a question, not me reacting. Stop sidestepping the main point. Let's say that I knew they were jokes and chose to respond seriously anyway, how does that cut off interaction? How would you react when asked a joke question without doing it in a way that, in your definition, "breaks off interaction".

I literaly gave examples of what you could have done. Voting him or voting with him are the things I would have done.

You're not giving him a real way to continue, which is why it breaks of the conversation.

1 hour ago, XnadrojX said:

I think it's definitely a weird interpretation. Even if I outright told him he was reaching and proceeded to ask "What are you trying to pull here?", how does that interpret as "Why are you being dumb?". Your case on me relies on me not wanting to prod him more, and you choose to "misinterpret" the question where I actually prodded him about his intentions? Like, I post these questions to get an answer, not to get them twisted and warped to try to paint me as scum. Me being annoyed just leads to the question "What are you trying to do by asking me these?" or "What do you hope to gain from this?" being phrased into "What are you trying to pull here?", I honestly can't see any way you can think to get "Why are you being dumb?", which I might add is borderline ad hominem.

Reaching question => dumb question in my book. So after you called two of his questions reaching, asking "what are you trying to pull" is pretty similar to asking "Why are you being dumb" imo.

1 hour ago, XnadrojX said:

Uh, yes it does? You're making conclusions from logic that can't logically lead to said conclusion? That's a leap to me.

It was ment as a refrence to you saying me attacking you for a lack of scumhunting, but me only attacking you with faulty logic is a leap in logic itself.

Also, I explained how my logic connects.

1 hour ago, XnadrojX said:

I still don't understand how me being annoyed leads "What are you trying to pull here?" into "Why are you being dumb?"

Let's see, I chose to believe he was joking and dropped the whole joke question thing, so that removes the "vote him" option. I took the "SB isn't shitposting" thing as a joke, because it was pretty obvious that mentors posting would have minimal impact on alignment, so that removes the "vote him for not voting Bartozio" option. Mackc2 thing later when I had already stopped reading the game, and it was solved by the time I came back. All these "options" you're giving me are using reasons I wouldn't have, and I'm not going to make up reasons to get scum to fake a townread on me.

The post Mack reacted to was made before your conversation with Athena.

The SB shitposting thing being a joke doesn't matter, he still tried to get you to vote me.

Honestly, I'm starting to think I just expected more from Xnad at the start of the game then I should have.

Fables cases feel like stuff he could have made at anytime, making his actions feel more like stalling then actually needing to get started.

##Unvote

##Vote: @Fable

 

[Fable]

Don't actually address me at all just say a one liner and vote me.

Seems good. 

[Fable]

I seriously can't stand bubble meta. 

[Makaze]

gdi still forgot someone in the switch

meh

Going to go a little more in depth.

My PoE at the moment:

Town

@RADicate (Mentor: @Walrein) // General town pings and lack of agenda made me feel pretty good about them. my weakest read in this category though
@Rapier (Mentor: @eclipse) // Pretty strong argumentation and way of presenting that shows constantly evolving opinions as they read each post. doesn't state conclusions, states progressions
@XnadrojX - Bomb Moss (Mentor: @undine's breath - Lenny) // Not much to say, town pings all around

Town Lean

@Junk (Junko) // I haven't gotten the feeling of ingenuine motives or randomnes I usually get from Junko which suggests they are more relaxed than when I have seen them (usually as Mafia) and that reads good to me.

Mixed Pings (Townsided)

@athena_57 (Mentor: @Refa) // Some posts strike me as town and others have blatant misreps. Part of me thinks they are just odd or trying things out, and I liked their Satsuma case. While some content has an agenda, some does not, so it is hard for me to pin down his motives. Town with agenda is possible.

Mixed Pings (Scumsided)

@Mackc2 (Mentor: @Magnificence Incarnate - Marth) // Seems to ask a lot of useless questions and avoids taking strong stances. In general doesn't touch real content with a ten foot pole. If this continues, going to call it more than caution, but I don't like this when I have more decisive pings.

Null-ish Scum Lean (Haven't done homework)

@SatsumaFSoysoy (Mentor: @Vi-astra) // I liked athena's case on them. I haven't had any especially good pings about them, so I'll have to make a read of my own later.

Scum Lean

@EvanManManMan (Mentor: @Shinori) // His entrance was bad, but then his posts later weren't terrible, but he dropped off the earth. sticking with first impressions until further impressions exist
@Bartozio (Mentor: @SB.) // Several of their posts and questions rang hollow to me and I haven't seen anything that jumps out to me as town. I'll comment on specifics tomorrow (this is where I would consolidate despite Evan being stronger early because Evan isn't even around.)

Scum

@Fable 

Null (No homework)

@Fenrir Aesir (Mentor: @Fenraiser)
@Zeonth (Mentor: @Alette)

[Makaze]

40 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

I was re-evaluating my thoughts on Fenrir, the conclusion is that his recent posts have more of a town lean. I have my suspicions about Athena but at this point its nothing more than a gut instinct, I haven't started to gather evidence to support it yet. 

I believe Bart is acting more confident than usual, I was not sure if that is scum or town would be more confident but I don't think as scum he would be tunnelling the one issue with Xan. 

I can buy that their argument is town v town (especially after reading Bart's last post), but who are you actually suspecting then? i.e. Are you okay with me being the top wagon right now? lol

[Zeonth]

Welcome to Zeo’s wall-post cause I’m a busy fuck who only just had the time to finish this so now here’s my thoughts on everything from page 1 to Page 7.

Page 1: Nice shitposts Lenlette. Also Alette is a nub and she can’t talk back to refute! >:3

Page 2: Evan makes his first appearance in the thread about not having reads when he should. I feel this was supposed to be a joke, but I mildly scumread it. Just a feeling thing, though. Makaze immediately lynches Fable as a scumread and also reads Evan, I assume for the same reasons as me. I see no real reason why Maka made a scumread on Fable as he had no game-talk at all, just the RVS shitpostery. My vote on Maka was to see if Evan/Fable/Maka would respond, since I didn’t apply pressure (I’m a lazy fuck) it was basically useless.

Page 3:

*Athena votes Mack for this. I’m interested why you didn’t vote for Evan but felt the need to for Mack, even if it was early, Evan still fit your reasoning first.

On 6/18/2018 at 8:24 AM, athena_57 said:

##Vote: Mackc2

For dropping in to make a not particularly productive comment, then leaving. Feels like he felt obliged to post, but didn't want to do anything.

*Mack says this but doesn’t mention me for doing essentially the same thing ((even if I did it second, I feel you and Athena should have mentioned all cases when making your lynches)).

On 6/18/2018 at 8:54 AM, Mackc2 said:

Hmm perhaps junk, his didn't join with a joke only a random vote and his first post responding to EMM felt forced?

Page 4:

*Bartozio calls Mack’s incomplete read on Junk “pretty towny” but has no real read on him.

*Rapier lynches Athena for “setting people up for faulty reasoning” then provides faulty reasoning about him in the same post.

*Makaze sticks to a “soul read” on two people without doing much pushing or any real attempt to get extra lynches on his targets. “Sheep me” is not adequate and nobody has followed you in the 6 pages that follow this one.

Page 5:
 

On 6/18/2018 at 7:13 PM, Makaze said:

Fable and Evan are scum.

I am unmoved on this point.

Please sheep my vote (or consolidate on Evan).

*Evan makes a townread on only Athena without any reasoning. Why is Athena your only townread? Is he still? Does that mean you have scumreads? It should be late enough in the day that you can make reads, now.

Following up on this, Makaze’s second scumread is here providing the bare minimum and he’s keeping pressure on Fable (to no avail) and failing to call this out. I know you’ve got an ego Maka (same tbh) but even you should see that your soul reads have no clout here and that you need to start pushing.

 

On 6/18/2018 at 10:17 PM, Makaze said:

You didn't ask him why he was town reading athena.

Page 6:
*Makaze asks Mack this when Mack asked in a clear enough manner on page 5 “Why is Athena your only town read? Also is there a reason you post multiple single sentence posts in a row instead of putting it all in one post?” Are you even reading his posts/going back to check what he says before throwing out a scumread, or is this just another “soul read” based on one random post he makes that you happened to notice?
 

On 6/18/2018 at 10:36 PM, Mackc2 said:

I don't know what I want to hear from Evan. 
I picked Evan because the only thing he said on Athena was something from a couple pages back when Athena has posted plenty, I was curious why he has drawn a town read from actions that I have seen as NAI. 
If I had to lynch anyone it would be fenrir because as Rad pointed out he intentionally left out an important part of Athenas interactions that undermined his theory, and that is something I would consider scum indicative.
##Unvote 
##Vote @Fenrir Aesir

*Mack uses the opportunity Makaze gave him to throw a lynch on Fenrir by using his question “who would you lynch right now” to move there. I’d have been more convinced of your read on Fenrir had you made that of your own accord, not under pressure. You also use the reasoning of another player ((Rad’s reasoning)) to justify your lynch. Do you have anything more on Fenrir? Maybe thoughts of your own?

Page 7:

*Makaze calls Rad town based on his follow up post to Fenrir (Makaze quotes it). I hate to just say I agree, but atm, I do agree. I also like Rad’s push on Mack to get more out of him ((specifically Mack’s own thoughts)).

*Makaze points out people will view his interactions with Fable as a thunderdome and NAI, but that is exactly what it is and you’ve not done a thing to change it. You just sit back and play into Fable’s trolls, or his own laziness, which he states (somewhere) that he will post more later on in the phase. I don’t understand why you continue to “push” a brick wall that’s clearly not budging and at this point my read on you starts to become more of a “you’re trying to look like you are active and contributing to scumhunting but you’re actually not.” There’s no way at this point that a Fable lynch will happen, yet you persist. It adds nothing to the game imo.

*Mack makes another post about Fenrir that piggybacks off of Rad’s answers, as Rad’s last post assumed Fenrir was confused over his wording. The only thing you’ve added, Mack, is that you reject this thing that Rad says and that’s why Fenrir’s scum to you. You’re still not using original thoughts, here.

[Zeonth]

8-current incoming. Any replies to my own coming in a third post after I finish everything I feel is important. Also everything is bold cause copying over from google docs is ass. 

 

[Mackc2]

Makaze, please don't use black text, It kills the night forest users. 
@Bartozio What is your opinion on the other points of discussion? What do you think of the argument that Satsuma is scum because they are not forming strong opinions? What was your opinion on the cases that existed against Fenrir? Who are Xand's scum buddies if he is scum? What in particular makes Fable worse than Xan?

 

[Makaze]

Zeonth town.

@Zeonth @ The Mackc2 comment: Now that you put it like that, you're right, he did ask him why he town read athena. I read like this "Why do you only have one town read?" That's the question I thought he was asking. Now that you've pointed out there is another interpretation, it does change how I read it a bit. He did ask what he meant to ask (kind of).

[Makaze]

2 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

Makaze, please don't use black text, It kills the night forest users. 
@Bartozio What is your opinion on the other points of discussion? What do you think of the argument that Satsuma is scum because they are not forming strong opinions? What was your opinion on the cases that existed against Fenrir? Who are Xand's scum buddies if he is scum? What in particular makes Fable worse than Xan?

 

my bad, i had to copy paste from the white theme because my post got garbled and auto posted and forgot to clear formatting on the repost

[Fable]

Are there any actual human beings in this game that want to interact like a human being? 

[Makaze]

Going to update with text fixes. Sorry guys, didn't mean to spam the thread...

Spoiler

My PoE:

Town

@RADicate (Mentor: @Walrein) // General town pings and lack of agenda made me feel pretty good about them. my weakest read in this category though
@Rapier (Mentor: @eclipse) // Pretty strong argumentation and way of presenting that shows constantly evolving opinions as they read each post. doesn't state conclusions, states progressions
@XnadrojX - Bomb Moss (Mentor: @undine's breath - Lenny) // Not much to say, town pings all around
@Zeonth (Mentor: @Alette) // Amazing intro post. Most notably town pings are for the way he addressed the things he agreed and disagreed with, clearly actually having his own opinions outside of his agenda and strongly reads town to me.

Town Lean

@Junk (Junko) // I haven't gotten the feeling of ingenuine motives or randomnes I usually get from Junko which suggests they are more relaxed than when I have seen them (usually as Mafia) and that reads good to me.

Mixed Pings (Townsided)

@athena_57 (Mentor: @Refa) // Some posts strike me as town and others have blatant misreps. Part of me thinks they are just odd or trying things out, and I liked their Satsuma case. While some content has an agenda, some does not, so it is hard for me to pin down his motives. Town with agenda is possible.

Mixed Pings (Scumsided)

@Mackc2 (Mentor: @Magnificence Incarnate - Marth) // Seems to ask a lot of useless questions and avoids taking strong stances. In general doesn't touch real content with a ten foot pole. If this continues, going to call it more than caution, but I don't like this when I have more decisive pings.
@Bartozio (Mentor: @SB.) // Several of their posts and questions rang hollow to me and I haven't seen anything that jumps out to me as town. I'll comment on specifics tomorrow (this is where I would consolidate despite Evan being stronger early because Evan isn't even around.) Bart made a decent post back to Xdranoj a minute ago and I am entertaining a town/town world. Moving him up to Mixed Pings for this post.

Null-ish Scum Lean (Haven't done homework)

@SatsumaFSoysoy (Mentor: @Vi-astra) // I liked athena's case on them. I haven't had any especially good pings about them, so I'll have to make a read of my own later.

Scum Lean

@EvanManManMan (Mentor: @Shinori) // His entrance was bad, but then his posts later weren't terrible, but he dropped off the earth. sticking with first impressions until further impressions exist

Scum

@Fable 

Null (No homework)

@Fenrir Aesir (Mentor: @Fenraiser)

 

[Fable]

Like I just really need to vent this. I don't play this game to watch other people post thread summaries, I play it to solve a puzzle that's investigative in nature which requires actually talking to people and if the meta on this site is just exist in a bubble and post thoughts with no interaction I don't find that fun nor interesting. and I'm not going to actually do anything that way. because it simply snuffs out my own playstyle because I thrive on two things, interaction and having time to analyze votals on later days . So that being said maybe it is just better to get me out of the game now if people are just going to exist in bubbles and give me shit because I'm not writing a fucking thesis on only 100 posts. 

Vote: @Fable

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, Fable said:

Like I just really need to vent this. I don't play this game to watch other people post thread summaries, I play it to solve a puzzle that's investigative in nature which requires actually talking to people and if the meta on this site is just exist in a bubble and post thoughts with no interaction I don't find that fun nor interesting. and I'm not going to actually do anything that way. because it simply snuffs out my own playstyle because I thrive on two things, interaction and having time to analyze votals on later days . So that being said maybe it is just better to get me out of the game now if people are just going to exist in bubbles and give me shit because I'm not writing a fucking thesis on only 100 posts. 

Vote: @Fable

yeah um dude

you don't need to ragequit to find the mafia

and you definitely shouldn't consider makaze's way of mafia the site meta lmao i barely even play

[Mackc2]

2 minutes ago, Fable said:

Like I just really need to vent this. I don't play this game to watch other people post thread summaries, I play it to solve a puzzle that's investigative in nature which requires actually talking to people and if the meta on this site is just exist in a bubble and post thoughts with no interaction I don't find that fun nor interesting. and I'm not going to actually do anything that way. because it simply snuffs out my own playstyle because I thrive on two things, interaction and having time to analyze votals on later days . So that being said maybe it is just better to get me out of the game now if people are just going to exist in bubbles and give me shit because I'm not writing a fucking thesis on only 100 posts. 

Vote: @Fable

Okay Fable you think Makaze is scum then some questions, what is the main factor that gives you this impression? Who would be scum buddies with them? Are you sure makaze's actions are scummy instead of just being rude? Is there anything about makaze's play that stands out as different from their town game? 

Also you did your vote wrong

[XnadrojX]

wow Zeonth completely ignoring anything related to me in any way :(

Fable there's literally one person actively voting you (the rest are kinda sheeping), calm down and please don't rage quit.

Zeonth does raise some points against Mackc2, my read on that slot's moving back down to null-ish.

[Athena_57]

8 hours ago, Rapier said:

Wait, so... uh, why did you vote someone you had no scumread on? That makes no sense.

I literally said I voted for pressure. I had a slight townlean on him, but if the opportunity arises to watch him under pressure to either affirm or correct my read I'm going to take it.

4 hours ago, Fenrir Aesir said:

@athena_57 how am I "ignoring game-relevant stuff you've posted" when I reference your questions towards Mack/Bart in the exact post your quoting? I made it clear when I initially expressed my suspicion on you that the post I was quoting was but one example. Re: Mack people have to leave for various reasons and in some cases may not see anything of meaning in a conversation (if I recall Mack had a comment specifically to something of this effect). Why would he need to post for the sake of making a post when so much of the game was dead? Re: how the game should have started RVS is a clear option but RVS doesn't explicitly involve reaching.

Regardless of whether your initial post was a joke or not, what I'm saying is that I think you said it was a joke in order to avoid having to continue the discussion.

You're also saying now that your vote on Xnad was for pressure, so what do you think of his reaction to it now that you've unvoted?

The thing is, it's an awful example. If you want to show my questions are bad, quote a bad question, not a fucking jokepost.

He may not realize he can get away with no-posting, or may want to seem better than the no-posters. My problem wasn't him having to leave, it was him posting a statement and leaving within 3 minutes. That to me does not signify a will to interact. It's not a strong read, but if it's the best I've got, I'll talk about it.

You appear to prefer other ways of breaking out of RVS, but do you think reaching in order to generate responses is inherently scummy or just a difference in playstyle?

True, there was nothing I could get out of the conversation besides what I had. He was taking my jokes seriously and getting annoyed, that's not going to change if I keep joking.

I think it was good. IIRC I mentioned liking what he was doing in my unvote post, specifically I felt the way he OMGUS-ed Bart in response to the pressure to be townie.

2 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I don't actually scumread you. I'm pretty much null on everyone on Day 1s most of the time. I only voted you because we've had this conversation about dropping votes for no reason multiple times already, so I voted you tongue in cheek. I could have asked you any of those questions without that vote and not much would change other than perhaps your own perception.

I'm not very invested in solving the game at Day 1, when reads will be mediocre and quickly subject to change.

Now I guess I have to catch up on a few pages.

Don't do this to me, man. You're replying to my "You're not gamesolving" with "Yup" and I really don't know how to take this as the attitude is similar to what I've seen from town!you, but it's also really convenient for scum!you.

Here's some stuff I want you to answer:

- You mentioned nadroj was a good info lynch, but your response to my question on what info that was was "I'd give the pocket theory more credit". What else are you getting from it? Cause I don't feel that deserves to be called a good info lynch. Could you also at least try to form an opinion on them?

- There's a train building up on you. Do you think there is scum intent in there or all we all misguided townies? If at least one of us is scum, who is it?

1 hour ago, Junk said:

 

@athena_57

This seems really confusing because I got the impression that you reversed your townread when you stated "Whilst Im not covinced by the "unwilling to participate in conv"-point, I missed the fact that he dropped the conversation despite shading me before." gives me the impression that you at least somewhat had a minor suspicion of him. You even posted a picture of a 15 degree rotation from "town" to "scum" :P.  Why couldn't you have said all you wanted was to apply pressure before when asked why you reversed your stance? Now it feels like to me that you forced yourself to come up with a reason for voting nadraj. I think your satsuma read is fine for the most part but this part bothers me. "His (Satsuma) responses to me were dissatisfactory and did not seem aimed at either having a conversation or moving the game forward." When you were asking and responding to satsuma before this post I never got the impression that you felt this way and to suddenly come to this conclusion just seems kind of convenient for your case. Also maybe you missed my question but what do you think of  rad's theory that fenrir genuinely did not realize what your vote on nadraj meant to his pocket theory. I think it's definitely crucial you look at this since your whole case on fenrir rests on him omitting your vote on nadraj Definitely bothered by this slot but slightly less than satsuma i'd say.

Cause if I say I'm townreading him but voting him for pressure he won't take my vote seriously and there will be no pressure.

I mentioned disliking the shade throwing before our exchange, and told him to place a vote. The most dissatisfactory post and the one that caused me to write the case was his last one before I posted it.

I answered Rad's question before and said both town!him missing it and scum!him omitting it were possible, which I realize is an answer that doesn't actually say anything.

1 hour ago, Mackc2 said:

Going to assume you where supposed to quote the post before this as well, I had a chat with my mentor and I was told I should think about why people would make certain actions as factions. I don't think scum would tunnel a person unless they where getting wagons to form, otherwise they are just making it hard for them to naturally change their vote to consolidate with their scumbuddies cause everyone is going to ask why they decided that the person who got lynched was more sus than the person they had tunnelled the rest of the round. Instead I think they would act more non-comital towards their pushes because they aren't trying to find scum they are trying to blend in with town and mislynch town and continuing to push a wagon with no-one on it doesn't accomplish either of these. So I think Bart V Xand is just two frustrated town who are sure the other is scum. 

Why wouldn't scum tunnel? By tunneling they don't have to interact with others and as long as their tunnel-target doesn't get lynched they basically get "free"/easy activity. Town has to consolidate at EOD as well, so they can easily swap at EOD and act like they're consolidating town, but still prefer their tunnel.

 

1 hour ago, Zeonth said:

*Athena votes Mack for this. I’m interested why you didn’t vote for Evan but felt the need to for Mack, even if it was early, Evan still fit your reasoning first.

*Mack says this but doesn’t mention me for doing essentially the same thing ((even if I did it second, I feel you and Athena should have mentioned all cases when making your lynches)). 

I only mentioned Mackc because Mackc was online at the moment. An RVS pressure vote is meaningless if you can't interact off of it. I do think your observation holds for Mackc though as in his case it was more an observation, less an attempt to start a conversation I feel.

I need to actually compare it with what Mackc posted, but just from reading your stuff on Mackc I think I like it, at the very least I like your tone there.

 

Also, anyone (besides Makaze) voting for Fable right now is being lazy.

Whilst I'm still not a fan of how Fenrir constructed his case on me, I feel my vote would be accomplishing more on Satsuma. Additionally I find myself agreeing with Fenrir a lot on everything that's not about me. Though I'd like to state I voiced most concerns he's bringing forward first

##Unvote

##Vote @SatsumaFSoysoy

[XnadrojX]

Just noticed Bartozio just dropping his case on me right when Mackc2 said he thinks we're TvT because none of us are backing down. Can't really post much now but both the unlynch and the Fable sheep feel a little off to me, will come back to this point later.

[Junk]

Fair point on the pressure thing with nadroj @athena_57.Just saw your earlier post on the RAD thing. Sorry for missing it. Why do you feel your vote is better placed on Satsuma right now? Also do you think the people voting for fable are scummy? You called them lazy but that doesn't seem alignment indicative to me.

Nadraj makes a good point about Bart. That switch definitely feels off because he seemingly had a lot more conviction before and the switch specifically to fable is bothering me for some reason. It just feels like it's placed there to try to start another wagon since there are three votes on Satsuma and bart suddenly sheeping satsuma's voters despite never mentioning him before would look very bad so he chose fable instead who has been mentioned somewhat or if Satsuma is his scumbuddy he's trying to start another wagon out of paranoia.   I feel like i'm using confirmation bias here but it just feels so off to me.  At the bare minimum it comes off as incredibly unnatural and I can't really see this coming from town. I'm going to place bart over athena now. 

[Athena_57]

8 minutes ago, Junk said:

Fair point on the pressure thing with nadroj @athena_57.Just saw your earlier post on the RAD thing. Sorry for missing it. Why do you feel your vote is better placed on Satsuma right now? Also do you think the people voting for fable are scummy? You called them lazy but that doesn't seem alignment indicative to me.

Nadraj makes a good point about Bart. That switch definitely feels off because he seemingly had a lot more conviction before and the switch specifically to fable is bothering me for some reason. It just feels like it's placed there to try to start another wagon since there are three votes on Satsuma and bart suddenly sheeping satsuma's voters despite never mentioning him before would look very bad so he chose fable instead who has been mentioned somewhat or if Satsuma is his scumbuddy he's trying to start another wagon out of paranoia.   I feel like i'm using confirmation bias here but it just feels so off to me.  At the bare minimum it comes off as incredibly unnatural and I can't really see this coming from town. I'm going to place bart over athena now. 

I think my vote is better placed on Satsuma because he may misinterpret what I've been saying on him. I've classified part of his behaviour as NAI, but not something I want scum!him to do. I want to make it clear that whilst it is not a large reason to be scumreading him, I do want him to stop it if he's town and will vote him if he doesn't.

I thought multiple other people were voting Fable FSR, when actually it's just Makaze and Bart whoops.

Bart is in an interesting spot for me. I've been tonereading them town for the most part and during his exchange with nadroj I liked his arguments (though had a bigger townread on nadroj) but I've been hesitant to call him town and I don't know why. The voteswap to Fable is pretty bad I think. Overall still leaning town I suppose?

I have to look back whether they also talked about other stuff or just straight up tunneld nadroj actually

[Athena_57]

50 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

I have to look back whether they also talked about other stuff or just straight up tunneld nadroj actually

Some comments on Fable, but not much else. Interactions with people besides nadroj are generally about nadroj.

Not impossible to come from town, but slightly scummy imo.