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Training Mafia 3.0: Advanced - GAMEOVER


Iris
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Yeah it's on page 13-14 like athena was saying satsuma was different from last game because he was shading athena here and didn't last time he didn't but I tried to make the point he did and was even more aggressive about it then but athena said something about that not counting cuz that's more than shade and that came across as nitty to me. IDK that bit of nittiness bothers me a little but at least athena made a case which is more than what I can say for others on that wagon. 

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Okay looks as if Rad has already answered the questions I was going to ask him, His answers seem sensible so I suppose he is a townlean. 
Also I haven't properly analysed Fenrir and I don't feel like doing any more analysis until after work, but he seems town. 

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9 hours ago, RADicate said:

On smogon im 3p1k and PS we did some makeover thing so im like "Assembly Member Chui"...... i didnt make that profile i promise .-.

It's actually Assemblymember.Chiu :P

 

Also thread just literally doubled between this post and my last post .-. Just reading through all that stuff is blegh.

 

##Vote @Bartozio

My initial reasons, but then he just 180'ed me. I appreciate you not pushing me anymore, but the switch just seems really unnatural. Also the Satsuma wagon's sudden explosion makes me think there's a scum influencing it and Bartozio is my biggest read on the wagon.

@Zeonth My opinion on Mackc2 changed when you made your post because you said some stuff about Mackc2 I didn't consider before and I changed my read to consider them.

Fenrir makes interesting points about RADicate, I'd like his response too. 

Fen's probably Town here, it makes sense for TRed scum to just hide under their TR and suck up to other TRed people, i.e RAD and point fingers at someone on the wagon.

 

I really don't want to deal with the Fable/Makaze thing until I have to, but I think Makaze is just being too clingy to their reads for now. I'd like Fable to post more AI stuff to read however.

EvanManMan has done approximately nothing, I'm not counting those EoD posts because they're essentially contentless. Either they just really have some weird gut feeling or they pulled their reads out of thin air.

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7 minutes ago, Fable said:

Yeah it's on page 13-14 like athena was saying satsuma was different from last game because he was shading athena here and didn't last time he didn't but I tried to make the point he did and was even more aggressive about it then but athena said something about that not counting cuz that's more than shade and that came across as nitty to me. IDK that bit of nittiness bothers me a little but at least athena made a case which is more than what I can say for others on that wagon. 

That isn't the post I was referring to, this is 

I am specifically referring to the end bit, I don't think scum Athena would point out Satsuma's play as being similar to their town play in earlier games if they intended to get them lynched.

 

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38 minutes ago, RADicate said:

Not checking votals atm but iirc i was actually the first vote on the wagon. I actually just voted it to apply some pressure for them to get some content out. They were ghosting the thread at the time of my lynch and i asked them something along the lines of "Hey since you're hanging around whatchu think about things" (thats prolly not word for word).

As for why i got off; i wanted to avoid a hammer on the slot as i thought i still had an hour more before the DL hit. And didnt wanna that nonexistant hour to go to waste.

The point that you were informed that the hour was non-existent still stands however? And if people really had things to do for that hour, they wouldn't have hammered anyways. This reminds me of my first scum game on MU where my mindset was not to get incriminated by votes and I did the exact same thing as you did now (admittedly using different reasoning to justify myself, but the point still stands).

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1 minute ago, XnadrojX said:

The point that you were informed that the hour was non-existent still stands however? And if people really had things to do for that hour, they wouldn't have hammered anyways. This reminds me of my first scum game on MU where my mindset was not to get incriminated by votes and I did the exact same thing as you did now (admittedly using different reasoning to justify myself, but the point still stands).

I was informed the hour was nonexistant 3 minutes before deadline. I didnt realize it until fable pointed it out to me ITT.

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Okay going to get some quick logic down and this is what is confusing me, the way I see it scum Bartozio has no reason to hop aboard the Satsuma wagon, he could have safely kept tunnelling Xan and Satsuma still would have been lynched. Alternatively Athena would have taken the hit and that would probably have been an even better scum conclusion because everyone probably would have leapt at Satsuma today. So unless Athena is also scum Bartozio's vote swap is a terrible play as scum 

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Hmm that makes sense too. But it makes no sense for Town!Bartozio to be able to 180 me that fast and hop on to the Satsuma wagon either though.

I guess I'll wait for their explanation when they come on

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11 minutes ago, XnadrojX said:

The point that you were informed that the hour was non-existent still stands however? And if people really had things to do for that hour, they wouldn't have hammered anyways. This reminds me of my first scum game on MU where my mindset was not to get incriminated by votes and I did the exact same thing as you did now (admittedly using different reasoning to justify myself, but the point still stands).

Not sure i understand the arguement your first bolded sentence is making. When i just return to a thread how should I know what everyone is doing and intends to do?

As for your second sentence; I dont think there is much of a defense for me to make due to the nature of your arguement. Your arguement would be "these are the motivations behind Rad's actions"; when the motivations that were actually behind my actions (avoiding early day end and the fact there was really no need to revote) have been outwardly stated ITT before. Im really not sure what more needs to be said regarding this; or what you are looking for here. 

5 minutes ago, XnadrojX said:

Hmm fair point ig. That still leaves the second part of the post unanswered.

 

brb eating

Feel free to leave me more questions. I'll be back later tonight. 

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Hm how do I put this. Thinking it through logically, if that hour really mattered, no one would have hammered anyways. And if someone did indeed hammer, that only incriminates them. So pulling off L-1 just for that reason seems weak. This isn't PS where Town potatoes at L-3 somehow and speed-lynches their way to LyLo.

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2 minutes ago, XnadrojX said:

Hmm that makes sense too. But it makes no sense for Town!Bartozio to be able to 180 me that fast and hop on to the Satsuma wagon either though.

I guess I'll wait for their explanation when they come on

I read his losing of interest with you being scum and subsequent change of opinion as natural, but his sudden jump to Fable then Satsuma as the unnatural bit, but seeing as I have done similar things I can see that sort of play coming from town.  

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2 minutes ago, XnadrojX said:

Hm how do I put this. Thinking it through logically, if that hour really mattered, no one would have hammered anyways. And if someone did indeed hammer, that only incriminates them. So pulling off L-1 just for that reason seems weak. This isn't PS where Town potatoes at L-3 somehow and speed-lynches their way to LyLo.

I have read multiple games where quickhammers shouldnt have happened but did. They are hilarious but id prefer for them not to be in my games. 

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There was a mafia game where raper (i think) quickhammered 3 TIMES. sorry for the irrelevant post but definitely one of the funniest games i've seen. I could see why RAD would want to be cautious and again I really don't get why he'd unvote as scum. 

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Day 2: Automated Votals from #425 to #540

Bartozio (2): Junk, XnadrojX
Not voting (9): athena_57, Bartozio, EvanManManMan, Fable, Fenrir Aesir, Mackc2, Makaze, RADicate, Zeonth

Phase ends in 35h53m. Hammer at 8.

Vote history:

 

Junk (1): Bartozio

XnadrojX (1): Bartozio

<Beta v2.0.4>

Edited by Iris
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EvanManManMan
First impression from what I can recall is that he's not reading the game in full (i.e. skimming). He talks about Junk scumreading him for not RVS voting even though Junk specified that he thought EMMM was faking confusion. He also has a moment where he accuses Makaze of using a mentality of "guilty until proven innocent" when Makaze scumreads him, which is inaccurate-Makaze didn't start off scumreading the entire game, only you and Fable.

63998ec2db7875712318e6830277a082.png?width=601&height=274

These kinds of stances on RVS feel to me like someone who'd want to use RVS as a means of gaining reads, which makes his first post and the corrosponding lack of early analysis/prodding look worse. I dislike the way he defends himself from Fable by calling him scummy over a percieved playstyle difference (Fable "disliking RVS reads" is NAI) and later defends himself from Makaze with the above "guilty until proven innocent" comment and telling Makaze to "get that out of your head if you are town."

Votes Rapier because he found Rapier's early game "flat" and wants to see "something contentful" from there-I'd definitely say Rapier'd given content by EoD but in Evan's last post D1 he's apparently unconvinced. None of his other reads have changed from the last time he gave a readlist, which ik isn't explicitly bad but the lack of a comment on Rapier gives credence to the whole "Evan's not reading the game in full" theory.

Final impression on him is a scumlean. The main thing that gets me is the Rapier kill, but I can see scum!Evan deciding that a Rapier push is fruitless and acquiescing to the kill. 

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Fable


Standing by what I said earlier about his early play being a matter of playstyle. Reading over his earlier interaction with Makaze and weighing the odds of it coming from town vs. scum and still leaning towards the former. Pretty heavily self-focused view of the gamestate, which at the very least lines up with how intent he's been on "YOU MUST INTERACT WITH ME." I'm taking his whole frustration with that to be NAI.


I don't see what the scum equity would be for Fable to be so violently opposed to the Satsuma wagon, an opposition which started a while before EoD. Like I guess he'd get some towncred from defending Satsuma, but he's also pretty actively pushing for counterwagons to them right up to EoD and moves to Evan upon concluding a Makaze lynch isn't happening. I feel like as scum he'd be able to get away with just sticking to the Makaze tunnel until EoD and then start pushing Evan D2.


Went back to check a recent game of his on MU since I was having trouble making a strong opinion here even after reading the ISO. 
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1862240&pp= 
Came to regret it somewhat because it moved me back towards neutral some. I was moving toward a townlean but his interactions with Superbia here are reminiscent of his interactions with Makaze, but then his tone is also, similar to what I mentioned about Rad earlier, significantly more controlled here. (This being a scumgame of his.) 
Compared it to his towngame in IDNSFMM5. 


"Oh I'm super brazen as a wolf but in a aggressively push mislynches for free wins kinda way."-Quote from there which made me think of the aggression here, albeit there's currently no way to know if what he's pushing is a mislynch (I think Makaze is town but Evan has a good chance to flip scum).

I feel something like

2662c4ad9d7e519e6feee01cec2ac188.png

With the final verdict being a townlean™ and wanting dead scum to compare his interactions with.

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5 hours ago, Mackc2 said:

Going to just clear up a few things, D1 my post that athena responded too was just posted for the sake of posting,I didn't have a plan for it and I got bored waiting for a response and went to play a game. I changed my vote to Fenrir Aesir after Makaze's prodding because I felt I needed to get a non rvs vote in but I was too lazy to actually do any scumhunting myself so I just sheeped Rad cause I thought it was a good point. With Bart I made the first post before I finished reading through their interactions, my opinion on bart has changed again. Just don't expect me to be consistent, if I flip flop a lot its because I am confused. I think that answers most of the questions I have been asked? I have also ISO'd about half the players now and will post some of the results now. 

Bolded: suck it haters

In any case, overall I'm feeling better about Mackc after ISO-ing him and reading his D2 stuff, just mildly annoyed there's hardly anything on satsuma, which was the reason I was scumreading him in the first place.

Mackc, could you elaborate on the evolution of your thoughts on satsuma for me? You voted for pressure I think, what caused you to stay?

4 hours ago, Mackc2 said:

Okay going to get some quick logic down and this is what is confusing me, the way I see it scum Bartozio has no reason to hop aboard the Satsuma wagon, he could have safely kept tunnelling Xan and Satsuma still would have been lynched. Alternatively Athena would have taken the hit and that would probably have been an even better scum conclusion because everyone probably would have leapt at Satsuma today. So unless Athena is also scum Bartozio's vote swap is a terrible play as scum 

Bart had been townreading me for most of the game, so it would be expected of him to want to lynch satsuma over me. I feel both town and scum him would consolidate from fable to satsuma at some point.

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Mackc2

Discovered the existence of post numbers (!) while reading his ISO.

130/135: This is a combination I dislike. Mack's initially like "I don't have anything strong enough to claim anyone as town or scum" but when pressured further by Makaze he moves his vote to me. I could see a world in which town!Mack legitimatately didn't have any strong opinions one way or the other, but he identifies my not referencing Athena's vote as "something [he] would consider scum indicative," a comment that to me feels like he's Rad's case as if he was having the same thought.

251: At the time he mentioned this the only read he'd mentioned in thread was the one on me. I guess in this game it's possible he'd given other thoughts with his mentor, though.

270: There's a flip here from scumreading me and presumably townreading Athena (if he thought I was misrepresenting Athena) to the opposite here. Making a note as I read through the ISO so see how his opinion on Athena develops. @Mackc2 what were some examples of my posts that gave you a townlean?

274: I'm noticing a trend of small things that ping me about Mack. The way he suddenly jumps on this when he'd been beforehand looking at Athena/me feels opportunistic. We didn't get that "gathered evidence" about Athena before EoD1, and by day 2 Athena's Mack's top townlean. Athena being a townlean for Mack is a good look imo b/c I think scum Mack would see Athena as a potential mislynch (the obvious exception being if they're partnered). I wouldn't mind seeing Mack's thought process from gut scumlean to townlean here though.

277: Just something I couldn't let go of; I think the "I talked to my mentor about this and he said this" comment would be difficult to fake were Mack scum.

519: Would appreciate some more opinions from people on this post; I'm wondering why you wouldn't bring these things up in real time. The whole "posting for the sake of posting" thing, for example, was brought up pretty early Day 1.

527: Wouldn't mind your doing this analysis at some point, you had another comment earlier that was a passing "Fenrir's posts seem town" and I want to know how you've developed your own opinion.

534: The analysis of Bart not being scum unless Athena also is is another "I think this would be a difficult process to fake as scum" deal. Final verdict is that I think Mack's town who's discussing things with his mentor and as a result the full thought process isn't here in-thread (as opposed to being scum making leaps to avoid explaining things). I want to see some of his thought processes as mentioned above.

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48 minutes ago, XnadrojX said:

Fen what do you think of RAD

We gon' do everyone tonight friend, fear not. It's below my name: I've been waiting for this moment [not included: and have been kind of lazy with it thus far].

You like tryhard Fenrir, don't you Xnad?

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10 hours ago, Zeonth said:

I’m mildly annoyed that I went to the trouble to read everything and post my thoughts just to be ignored. Ask away. And, reiterating a point I (and Maka) has made. This isn’t a real-time game, I do read over posts, especially ones I am pinged in. If you leave me questions I’ll answer when I’m not in class or at work. 

Just noticed this is Zeo's only post this Day and it contains no thoughts, no nothing. What's on your mind Zeo?

Additionally, could you give me a readslist/gamestance of some sort? Your questions and analysis have looked good but I'm having trouble pinning down what your reads are.

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Bartozio
First off these quote walls jfc


77: Did you not find it interesting that Athena switched from townreading Xnad to sheeping your vote on them? Yes, it's been a pretty prominent topic if discussion now, but your reaction to it is somewhat underwhelming.


195: 722fd4ed7c58bba64bd5022b391b7627.pngDoes this count as shade-throwing yet?
Your responses to Xnad in this and your subsequent posts feel a lot less like you're trying to determine his alignment and more like you're trying to discredit him. There's no entertaining of the possibility that he's town and you dismiss most of what he says with things like "Does this count as shade-throwing?" and trivializing his argument about logic leaps with an over-the-top reaction.


210: More of a general statement than relating this post, but he feels a too lenient towards Athena, even if he thinks Athena's town. It reminds me a lot of my first scumgame (which was also the first game I played on a forum and my partner got lynched Day 1 and it was this whole THING but anyway) where I made the mistake of, to paraphrase the person who caught it, "hardly considering people I'd listed as townreads." There's the thing mentioned in 77, and then here he doesn't take any issue with Athena's misinterpretation of his comment re: Fable. Obviously he doesn't have to flip his opinion 100%, but he kind of just takes it as it is without any questions. The closest he comes to hesitation on Athena is, "And yes, I read his response of "Joking". But... isn't that a pretty easy answer?" But he doesn't have a problem with Athena using this "easy answer" and instead continues going after Xnad for not questioning it. His interactions thus far have also been limited primarily to Xnad, and he doesn't seem concerned with the fact that there's pretty consistent suspicion on Athena.


280: The Fable vote is really bad; earlier you were talking about how "it's fine if Fable doesn't make reads early D1" and here you're like "it feels more like he's stalling."


335: The SoySoy vote is also bad as he calls SoySoy's playstyle similar to the IDNSFMM5 game but moves to SoySoy with barely any casing/pushing on Fable since his last post. His comment on Xnad here feels like backtracking because the push isn't gaining traction.


Ultimately have a fairly strong scumlean on Bartozio. I think a flip from him and/or Evan can aid in clearing up the Fable case.

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