Training Mafia 3.0: Advanced - GAMEOVER

[Fable]

Slowly getting to the frustrating conclusion Mak might actually be village, I find his process absolute insanity but I'd be lying if I said he wasn't that insane process to the entire game and just to one or two people. Like Evan and Bart are my top two wolves atm and he has pressured them in the same way he's done to me and I don't really see Mak fitting in as a wolf with them. 

Now if you excuse me I need mind bleach to forget I wrote this post. 

[Fable]

3 hours ago, Mackc2 said:

Sorry I don't have time right now I was just checking if my vote was still needed cause makaze pinged me while I was asleep 

I don't get this post?

Do you think Zeo is a wolf? Nobody else you want pressure on? 

Vote should be on someone this late into the day I think. 

[Fable]

6 hours ago, EvanManManMan said:

I think my concluaion on you is already clear

Can I point out this is not how this works? It's literally backwards, you can't say "I think you're a wolf therefore this thing you did was wolfy". 

 

[Fable]

10 hours ago, EvanManManMan said:

Idk for lynch choices tbh. I guess Bart to solve the Satsuma wagon.

As for Fable buddies, I think Fenrir could be with Fable since their Fable read was very hedgy yet they landed at town which I don't fully get. As for a third, probably somebody in the null pool. 

1. You're dead set on me being a wolf

2. You're second choice for lynch is someone I would never conceivably be w/w with. 

Seems good. 

Good thing you got to fake outrage over Zeo's post so you got out of having to actually follow up on this. ;) 

[Fable]

@Zeonth

Where would you look for wolves outside me/Evan/Mak?

[Iris]

Day 2: Automated Votals from #425 to #705

Zeonth (4): athena_57, Fenrir Aesir, Makaze, Bartozio
Fable (1): EvanManManMan
EvanManManMan (1): Fable
Bartozio (2): Junk, XnadrojX
Not voting (3): Mackc2, RADicate, Zeonth

Phase ends in 11h38m. Hammer at 8.

Vote history:

 

athena_57 (1): Zeonth

Bartozio (2): Fable -> Zeonth

EvanManManMan (1): Fable

Fable (1): EvanManManMan

Fenrir Aesir (1): Zeonth

Junk (1): Bartozio

Makaze (3): Zeonth -> EvanManManMan -> Zeonth

XnadrojX (1): Bartozio

<Beta v2.0.4>

Edited June 23, 2018 by Iris

[XnadrojX]

Did a quick read-through and my initial thoughts were.. eugh, EvanManMan is exhibiting the same behaviour I SRed Bartozio for, but to an even larger extent... their level of "faulty reasoning" doesn't sit well with me. By extension, I think Fable and Makaze is Town, Makaze has pushed on people consistently and Fable's pulling out of the Makaze tunnel felt genuine town "I think I'm wrong" rather than scum "This wagon isn't getting any speed" kinda thing.

Gonna read it more closely now

 

 

[XnadrojX]

Okay the game has gotten.. a lot more complicated than I expected on my first skimthrough.

 

I doubt Zeonth is scum here honestly, their post feels fine, their responses are pretty okay. Fable has already posted their thoughts which are interestingly similar to mine, which is just anothe reason to TR them ig. I TR Makaze but I have to disagree with their statement where they said Bart/Evan cannot be W/W, their argument is that scum doesn't TR a buddy getting lynched, but following the gamestate they weren't really in much trouble (2 votes isn't a lot tbh) and could easily be shifted off. In fact, I can completely see a Bart/Evan scumteam working out, with Evan saving Bart through their influence. I have no idea what's up with the Zeo wagon, just came suddenly out of nowhere and it makes no sense at all.

##Vote @EvanManManMan

I think this lynch clears up the most slots (For me at least). The interactions between this slot and Zeonth, Makaze, Fable and that other user (sorry can't remember who it was on read through) are much more telling if this guy's alignment is known. And I'm fairly sure this is scum anyways, for reasons similar to my lynch on Bartozio's.

[XnadrojX]

RADicate and Junk all feel pretty underwhelming today tbh, RAD's Day 1 was pretty heavily focused on Fenrir so I was kinda expecting to see more gamesolving coming from them today, but they've kinda dropped off the face of the earth after making a couple of responses to defend their EoD1. Junk is kinda... I liked them in D1 and early D2 but now their posts just don't feel as impactful, their good posts went pretty deep into analysis which makes me think they actually thought things through, but now their posts aren't as content-full as before. Still a solid townlean but slightly less than before.

I do like tryhard Fenrir Aesir, and I'm ready to read the 50% of your next wallpost that matters :P

 

 

For clarity, I think Scum!Evan means Town!Fable, Town!Makaze, and Scum!Bart, while Town!Evan means Null-Town!Bart and one scum in Fable and Makaze. I think Evan/Bart are the same alignments because their interactions can be totally fabricated as W/W, along with reasons mentioned above, but they can also totally be V/V because... well, their interactions could be genuine. I'm considering V/W Evan/Bart, but to a lesser extent, I don't have much reason but I just feel like Scum!Bart reacts differently to Town!Evan. 

I'm pretty sure Evan flips scum anyways and I TR both Fable and Makaze already so unless someone gives me a better reason otherwise or I notice something off that I really shouldn't have missed, I'm parking my vote here.

[Mystic Arcanum]

On 6/21/2018 at 8:43 PM, Junk said:

##vote @Bartozio

deadline thoughts are pretty much the same except for a few things. I find bart's satsuma vote  bad because voting for consolidation seems eh when there were a few hours left in the phase.  I feel like he could have tried harder for a fable lynch  since consolidation didn't seem urgent. Makaze is somewhat similar but i'm pretty sure I remember makaze having some suspicion of Satsuma at the very least far before deadline whereas bart never mentioned him until the consolidation post. Fenrir is townie.  His case is definitely original and idk why scum would choose RAD over just the typical "well someone was probably scum on the satsuma wagon". The thing that makes me hesitate about RAD being scum is actually his unvote at the end which fenrir didn't like. Rad could easily just do nothing IMO. No one seemed to dislike his satsuma vote. Unless he thought that people would suspect him just because he was on the satsuma wagon I don't really see any reason for the unvote (as scum). 

Re: the first bolded part what do you think of my own consolidation vote then, which took place a few minutes before the end of the phase? (I need to go back and check but it may not have actually been needed as I apparently misremembered the 2/3 rule, but irregardless of that I'm asking what you think of that mindset). Re: the second vote this is basically what I'm getting at w/ his last comment about how "if Satsuma flips town there's scum on the wagon" I find potentially indicative of that sort of mindset.

On 6/21/2018 at 3:35 PM, RADicate said:

(Wasnt the invitational redux the one i subbed in and idled until lylo in? Idt that smogon game had me interacting with anyone and doing anything of relevance until lylo; thats probably a bad example.... i dont like acknoledging the fact i joined that game tbh) I genuinely didnt believe it mattered whether i revoted or not when the wagon was undoubtably locked in place by that point. Still agree with fable about that wagon probably being scum driven. I believe the brunt of the wagon itself came into existance while I was at work; i personally didnt know the soy wagon had that much traction until i hopped on the thread about three minutes before my "avoid hammer" post; so I couldnt have stated my opinions on it beforehand. Also; acting under the implication that a mid-d1 lynch coupled with me asking for their thoughts (asked for them because they were stalking thread at the time) implies a scumread is probably a bit of a stretch (whether intended or not). They were null if not leaning ever so slightly scum on the basis they didnt do much. 

As far as the Smogon game goes it has more to do with your tone. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-mafia-invitational-redux-game-thread-game-over.3629685/page-103#post-7728633 is an example post, where your thoughts are more casual and stream of consciousness. I can get the mentorship thing accounting for a part of the difference but I don't think it explains it all the way.

Where do you think the scum is on the Satsuma wagon? Re: your Soysoy vote, it's less to do with whether or not you were scumreading SoySoy/whether you were on the wagon first or not and more to do with that you asked them their thoughts and then didn't really acknowledge them much until your unvote. 

On 6/21/2018 at 4:41 PM, Fable said:

Somebody speak words to me about Zeo.

NGL my eyes glazed past most of his walls and I don't get much out of posts like that. I think he and Evan are important to figure out because then we'll have an idea of how bad the pile up on satsuma was. 

A sentiment I share; what do you think about the pressure being put on him/his reaction to it?

On 6/21/2018 at 11:46 PM, XnadrojX said:

EvanManMan has done approximately nothing, I'm not counting those EoD posts because they're essentially contentless. Either they just really have some weird gut feeling or they pulled their reads out of thin air.

Which do you think to be more likely?

On 6/22/2018 at 12:14 AM, XnadrojX said:

Hm how do I put this. Thinking it through logically, if that hour really mattered, no one would have hammered anyways. And if someone did indeed hammer, that only incriminates them. So pulling off L-1 just for that reason seems weak. This isn't PS where Town potatoes at L-3 somehow and speed-lynches their way to LyLo.

Shots have been fired-shooter is armed and dangerous.

On 6/22/2018 at 12:15 AM, Mackc2 said:

I read his losing of interest with you being scum and subsequent change of opinion as natural, but his sudden jump to Fable then Satsuma as the unnatural bit, but seeing as I have done similar things I can see that sort of play coming from town.  

When you were doing those similar things, what were the motivations for them? In the posts before Bartozio switches to Fable what do you make of his interactions with Xnad? I feel like he's just trying to refute/discredit Xnad's defense and I interpret "losing interest" to be more something someone does when they've been questioning someone/trying to figure out the alignment and feeling like they're not getting anywhere (not unlike a comment Makaze had earlier Day 1 about feeling like you weren't "answering the right questions").

You had a question to Athena about why scum!Bart votes Fable and then Satsuma. I agree somewhat with Athena's response to this, the motivation I see is scum!Bart focusing on who he can push as a mislynch. In that scenario he sees more and more people townreading Xnad and realizes that lynch isn't happening, so moves to Fable because he's seen that slot getting suspicion through the day. The Satsuma vote he then moves to because the Fable push isn't moving anywhere either and the other "major" wagon of the day is Athena, who he's been consistently regarding as town.

@athena_57 re: Bartozio's townread on you: Even if he arrived at an early townread, do you think town!Bart would have you as locktown to the extent where he questions next to nothing from you?

14 hours ago, EvanManManMan said:

WRT nadroj, what I saw was Athena tried to engage him by suggesting him topics but nadroj kinda just said he wasn't responding due to lack of stuff to analyze. It seemed like he didn't want to give content.

What kind of content would you have expected him to give at that point, considering especially that you yourself were apparently having trouble generating early reads you said you normally have?

14 hours ago, EvanManManMan said:

I think the Rapier kill implies that there is a wolf in Fable/Mack because they were his EoD scumreads. I didn't really see any other reason for him to die but lol haven't read.

Rapier was fairly town from what I recall; I think he's received more suspicion post-mortem which, if true, is a great meme. I think the kill choice is at least in part tied to his being on the Athena wagon, be it a frame or Athena making that kill.

14 hours ago, athena_57 said:

This first part is too WIFOM-y to make such a statement. Also, I was one of his scumreads as well.

He was pretty consensus town I think.

14 hours ago, EvanManManMan said:

So literally every vote on the Satsuma wagon is bad?

Lol ok

Considering Fable's opinions on the existence of a Satsuma wagon, I'm not sure why this surprises you. The wagon analysis there is fairly in line with his prior attitude to the lynch.

The case Makaze makes against Fable in response to my asking him (Makaze) about the differences between Fable's D1's moves Fable down my on list some. In comparing his early posts here to the IDNSFMM5 ones you reference I'm also noticing an effort to act "above it all" if that makes sense-things like his "clown fiesta" comment and "This thread makes my head hurt."

14 hours ago, EvanManManMan said:

Wait, you said that I seem like the type of person that gets reads from RvS, which is true, but how does that make my first post worse? If anything it makes it better since my thoughts are clarified and it shows that I hit a block there and that I was trying to get reads when I couldn't. 

I hadn't read all of the game so me not knowing Rapier's contributions at EoD isn't really AI.

And the last part about me finding a push fruitless is spmething that doesn't happen very often and you can ask your mentor to confirm this because they have played with me a decent amount.

Overall this read on me is pretty weak and doesn't look at all into the content I gave at EoD as well as the majority of my Fable push.

It makes you look worse because if you're the type of person to get reads from RVS, you should be aiming to use RVS yourself. You just popped in and said "I don't have reads"-am I to take this at face value when you didn't do anything to get them?

'Tis asked.

What you gave at EoD isn't anything special imo; I commented on what stood out to me. It mostly comprises of your Fable "push," which is a lot of discrediting Fable instead of actually defending yourself:

On 6/20/2018 at 5:57 PM, EvanManManMan said:

That's not a pot shot. I quoted that post to help prove the point I made earlier that you are caring more about being scumread than why.  I think that I have been pretty solvy so far too so I don't know where that came from.

 

On 6/20/2018 at 6:24 PM, EvanManManMan said:

A sheep? I was the only person voting Rapier and I think I. Was the only one to ever vote them.

You do a similar thing in response to my read on you here: "This read on me is weak" is not a defense.

Posting now before continuing to p. 25 because this is getting long.

[Mystic Arcanum]

I nearly lost that wall because of a CAPCHA.

[Mackc2]

3 minutes ago, Fenrir Aesir said:

When you were doing those similar things, what were the motivations for them? In the posts before Bartozio switches to Fable what do you make of his interactions with Xnad? I feel like he's just trying to refute/discredit Xnad's defense and I interpret "losing interest" to be more something someone does when they've been questioning someone/trying to figure out the alignment and feeling like they're not getting anywhere (not unlike a comment Makaze had earlier Day 1 about feeling like you weren't "answering the right questions").

You had a question to Athena about why scum!Bart votes Fable and then Satsuma. I agree somewhat with Athena's response to this, the motivation I see is scum!Bart focusing on who he can push as a mislynch. In that scenario he sees more and more people townreading Xnad and realizes that lynch isn't happening, so moves to Fable because he's seen that slot getting suspicion through the day. The Satsuma vote he then moves to because the Fable push isn't moving anywhere either and the other "major" wagon of the day is Athena, who he's been consistently regarding as town.

 

I just jumped on a popular wagon because I decided I didn't feel like solving the game and decided to just go with the person people where saying would flip scum that I agreed with, without thinking about it myself. My original thoughts when I read it during my ISO was that he was realising Xan wasn't scum and just got disinterested in actually solving the game and started sheeping, but reading it again I have reached the conclusion he was just sick of trying to case Xand cause nobody was agreeing with him which is the same reason he said in one of his responses to you, and IMO thats a bit scummy. 
Yeah I am becoming less and less confident with my "bart is town" theory, you have raised some good counterpoints. 
Also what is this GIF? its great.

[Junk]

Hmm don't really want to lynch Zeoneth. I got the impression that Zeoneth was trying to play catchup the whole time and was planning to give his reads post when he completely caught up. Him making a deadline wall post was perhaps not the smartest thing to do but I don't see how that means he's scummy. Also when he lists his three reads he says he thinks one of them is scum but two are probably town. Only thing that pings me a little is with the whole fable v evan thing it seems like he's trying to line up lynches but other then that meh. 

@Bartozio Okay I think I understand your fable case now (and I think it is) but you never seemed to address his d2 content on your fable vote or at all. Also your vote switch to Zeoneth bugs me because you never explained what suddenly made zeoneth worse than fable. Your vote seems more like a pressure vote considering you're just asking him to explain something.  which seems eh considering there were already 3 votes (two of which are pressure) so it comes off as opportunistic to me. Hmm not gonna lie, in regards to your consolidation vote, I think you're telling me the truth when you said you wanted to stop athena or makaze from getting lynched but gut is telling me that if you're scum athena is also scum  so this solidifies my thoughts even more. Nothing you can do about that tho.  I will take back my original thoughts on your consolidation vote though because looking back you were the only vote on Fable and it would have been easier as scum to want a lynch that was less likely to happen rather than make a bad vote on a wagon you know would flip town UNLESS you were trying to protect a scumbuddy. @Fenrir Aesir this is the same response I have towards you. Even without my confirmation bias though I still think your fable read is really outdated and the zeoneth vote switch isn't good. Still top scumread

@EvanManManMan I don't see how the jokes would be "artificial reasons"? The accused isn't actually able to respond to the joke in a serious way and unless Rapier would have really wanted himself to look really bad he couldn't justify athena for responding badly to a joke post. Also you definitely misrepped nadroj. If he wanted to avoid giving content why would he ask athena to give him topics to talk about? Fable ~~I think i'm just more intelligent and can understand sarcasm~~ we will have to disagree I guess. Also wrt satsuma, asking someone why they're tunneling is perfectly valid. Tunneling can be scummy because it enables them to just focus on person without talking about others in the game. I do have a question about the whole fable omgus thing. Why do you think scum would attempt to throwaway their vote? (this is just a question since I can't entirely see why what fable did with their vote on you was SCUMMY as opposed to bad decision making). I think Evan has a decent point with fable shading everyone on the satsuma wagon but most of his reads d1 didn't really make much sense to me and just feel thrown out there along with the rvs comment. His d2 fable read is better but I'm still definitely struggling to understand the OMGUS part (which i will clarify isn't scummy).

@athena_57 Why do you think Zeon is worse than Bart? The blurb about him not giving any thoughts at all today kind of bothers me because I feel like you're forcing him into a damned if you do damned if you don't situation because if Zeon has to half-ass his thoughts (I got the impression that he never said anything at all because he was busy) people will call him out on it but if he doesn't say anything that's scummy? I guess i'm just confused how zeoneth saying anything would change your read at all. I think the initial Zeoneth case is fine but as I said I got the impression he planned to give a reads post when he caught up (and had time).

 

I mentioned athena likely being scum if bart is scum and I want to talk about that but I really am too tired to go into why so i'll try to talk about it after bed but I will say that this is a big reason why I want to lynch bart today and I don't really want to compromise. I also want to talk about fable (because i'm thinking athena/bart/ (fable or evan) is a possibility. I didn't talk about fable today because most of his play doesn't really bother me just looking at it by itself but looking at his interaction with bart is really bothering me. If I'm wrong about this maybe i'm the one who needs a mentor...

[Zeonth]

Alright, I am going to post the rest of my reads, but I doubt any cases will be as strong as the one against Evan, atm. I hope to be awake before DL hits tomorrow to see how Bart replies to my questions for him. As for my lynch, I am going to go ahead and place it on Evan for 2 reasons:

1- To show how serious my scumread on him is and that I wish to clarify my reads on Fable and Makaze by pinning down Evan’s alignment.

2- Slight self-preservation.

##Vote @EvanManManMan

[Athena_57]

45 minutes ago, Junk said:

 

@athena_57 Why do you think Zeon is worse than Bart? The blurb about him not giving any thoughts at all today kind of bothers me because I feel like you're forcing him into a damned if you do damned if you don't situation because if Zeon has to half-ass his thoughts (I got the impression that he never said anything at all because he was busy) people will call him out on it but if he doesn't say anything that's scummy? I guess i'm just confused how zeoneth saying anything would change your read at all. I think the initial Zeoneth case is fine but as I said I got the impression he planned to give a reads post when he caught up (and had time).

If you've been making wallposts on the first 12 pages and waiting for 24 hours until D2 I think you have some thoughts already. I don't mean a full case/readslist, but you can at the very least give us something to chew on. I'm also saying I don't want him to spend his time on thread summaries, but on giving his reads. I get he's busy, and therefore want him to use his time effectively.

I really hope more is coming from Zeo, but I feel my vote is unnecessary on him at this point in time, a 4 man pressure wagon is overkill imo.

 

[Athena_57]

##Vote @EvanManManMan

His comment on how Rapier dying meant scum in Fable/Mackc keeps haunting me. I think it's risky to be taking such things at face value and expect better of him. Also weird is how he chose to ommit me from this list when I was rapier's biggest scumread. Feels like he felt I was too hard to lynch so just ignored me.

[Athena_57]

@Fenrir Aesir

Regarding the Bart question, I'm not sure? I think it can maybe come from town!him not wanting to undermine his story but fits more with pocketingscum!him.

So nothing definitive, but pushes him slightly towards the scummier end of the spectrum in my opinion.

[Junk]

I can't sleep yet but am too mentally tired to talk about my bart/athena/fable (evan seems unlikely after that vote from athena cuz evan is already under decent pressure why would scum try to bus) theory but I think I should emphasize that I REALLY REALLY don't want to compromise on this bart lynch. Just seeing that evan vote from athena pinged me hard because it literally is from one or two comments they casually made and im getting more and more sure.  I'll try to wake up early tomorrow to talk about my theory but yeah please guys don't lynch evan today. 

[Mystic Arcanum]

15 hours ago, EvanManManMan said:

Right now I have you Athena and Junk as solid town. I have Mack as lighter town. I originally townread Bart but apparently the stuff that I didn't read was scummy so not sure on that.

I don't remember anything that Rad or Zeo has done. Xandroj is null. I had them as scum but I kinda liked their tone in their recent stuff. It wasn't particularly strong either so i can't read them as town for it.

And then I have Fable as scum and you should know this.

I don't think I missed anybody here.

Wowthanks

15 hours ago, EvanManManMan said:

Idk for lynch choices tbh. I guess Bart to solve the Satsuma wagon.

As for Fable buddies, I think Fenrir could be with Fable since their Fable read was very hedgy yet they landed at town which I don't fully get. As for a third, probably somebody in the null pool. 

Fable's kind of a ? slot for me because I'm trying to filter through the aggression and when I filter through it there isn't much left. The only things that were really moving me towards scum for him prior to Makaze's post were his fixation on Makaze and the comparison to the MU game I linked, but the points I found in favor of town!Fable are also weak ones because they're only a couple of specific moments as opposed to something consistent.

Re: the bolded section, I skipped ahead to see if he committed to this and can see a potential Evan/Bart scumteam with his attitude toward's Bart's ISO (suddenly not seeing any real problems, his only response to the tunneling accusation being "I don't really see that" and the Satsuma vote, which was initially what Evan wanted to vote Bart for, is suddenly "not extremely bad"). I don't like what he's doing in 655 either; he's lending this passive support to the Bart wagon and still calling Bart a "good info lynch" while also calling Bart town and having just called Bart's Satsuma vote "not extremely bad." 

14 hours ago, athena_57 said:

2 scum in the non-voters, maybe 3

Fight me

Not voting (6): Bartozio, EvanManManMan, Fenrir Aesir, Mackc2, RADicate, Zeonth

Has potential, who do you think? 

I'm currently leaning towards the idea that there's at least 2 scum in the Bart/Evan/Zeo group and that a scumflip from the former two would make Fable look better. Mack I think is town.

@Bartozio re: Fable: Makaze frustration aside, what is the motivation for scum!Fable specifically to not post for the first half of the day? If he's looking for less opportunities to get caught, wouldn't he be more likely to acquiesce to the request that he contribute earlier? I think it makes sense for town!Fable in the sense that it's his meta and there's a possible world where town!Fable has a mindset similar to Satsuma's. Basically in response to the "It's fine if he doesn't make reads because he doesn't have them. It's not fine if he doesn't make reads while actually having them," I don't think Fable would have listed his reads even if he did have some regardless of alignment.

14 hours ago, Bartozio said:

The part of "I read his response" wasn't really a hesitation though?

I don't mind Athena giving an easy answer because I wasn't scumreading him for engaging Xnad in the first place. I thought he was joking, so him responding to that question saying he was joking doesn't raise any alarms for me.

On the other hand, Xnad was suspecting Athena for engaging him the way he did. That's a pretty big difference in perspective starting out.

The bolded italicized part (italics used to differentiate from your own bold) is the problem; I'm saying that I have an issue with how you seemed to have written Athena off as town within a matter of minutes. It's fair I guess that you and Xnad had different interpretations of Athena's questions, but this doesn't answer a number of the things I asked about (there's an issue with the quoting here but idk what I did to break it):

14 hours ago, Bartozio said:

 

Quote

210: More of a general statement than relating this post, but he feels a too lenient towards Athena, even if he thinks Athena's town. It reminds me a lot of my first scumgame (which was also the first game I played on a forum and my partner got lynched Day 1 and it was this whole THING but anyway) where I made the mistake of, to paraphrase the person who caught it, "hardly considering people I'd listed as townreads." There's the thing mentioned in 77, and then here he doesn't take any issue with Athena's misinterpretation of his comment re: Fable. Obviously he doesn't have to flip his opinion 100%, but he kind of just takes it as it is without any questions. The closest he comes to hesitation on Athena is, "And yes, I read his response of "Joking". But... isn't that a pretty easy answer?" But he doesn't have a problem with Athena using this "easy answer" and instead continues going after Xnad for not questioning it. His interactions thus far have also been limited primarily to Xnad, and he doesn't seem concerned with the fact that there's pretty consistent suspicion on Athena.

Specifically the bolded sections; I still don't get why you'd be so confident in the Athena townread that you wouldn't bat an eye at their oversimplifying your attitude towards Fable whole also not doing very much in the way of defending them.

10 hours ago, Zeonth said:

Before *ylo, I would like to see Evan lynched (and first out of these three). If Evan flips town, I would read Fable as likely scum. If Evan flips mafia, then I would see Fable and Makaze as town.

If Fable were to be lynched before Evan and he flips town, my scumread on Evan remains. If Fable is lynched first and flips mafia, my scumread on Evan remains (though, weakened) and the possibility of Makaze being third scum comes into play (primarily if Evan is then lynched to flip second scum).

In no scenario do I wish Makaze to be lynched as of this moment based on my reads of him.

Bless your soul because this is almost startlingly similar to my current mindset. The exception is that if Fable is lynched first and flips Mafia I think it would make both Evan and Makaze look better. I seriously doubt the interactions between them are this grand mastermind wifom scheme. Liking this thought process from Zeo based on the mindmeld.

10 hours ago, Makaze said:

Evan would never passively town read his scum partner when they were about be lynched like this, and not fight harder for it. If Evan is Mafia his only motivation for doing that would be distancing from a mislynch he thinks is going to happen.

I disagree with this, passively townreading one's scumbuddies is an issue I've had with my scumgame in the past. (Right @XnadrojX?) What do you make of his voting Fable then? The idea I'm working with currently is that Evan's scum who's trying to lend support to the Bart lynch while also pushing Fable as a counterwagon.\

10 hours ago, EvanManManMan said:

Saying that my reads day one were lackluster is completely correct. However it isn't anything scummy because as both alignments, I would have few detailed and caught up reads having only read half of the game. I have been making reads on the players who have been active with the exception of Fenrir who I plan to read overnight. As for the statement you quoted, that's not something I plan on using earlier or something I was using as an excuse. It's just the truth when looking at the current gamestate. There really isn't much content behind your read on me and most of your reasons are NAI or wrong.

And then there is this. Somehow, if I flip wolf, Fable is town BUT if Fable flips wolf I'm still a wolf AND Makaze is a wolf. So not only are you saying we are v/w and w/w at the same time, you are implying that Makaze has bussed both of his partners at some point in the game. That's terrible logic for what should be obvious reasons.

You barely have any content to begin with how are you going to go on and on about "people aren't looking at my content" when so much of what you're doing amounts to just "this case on me is bad and you're scum for making it"

Frustration aside, 1) I'd prefer if you read me now, 2) you seem to have missed the portion at the beginning of Zeo's post where he talks about how unlikely it is for all three of you to be scum. He's pretty clearly imo saying that:

-All three of you being scum is unlikely.

-You flipping scum makes Fable look better due to your interactions and push on him.

-You're still plenty scummy in a vacuum and so Fable flipping scum doesn't exonerate you. 

-If Fable flips scum and then you also flipped scum down the road he'd have to reconsider the chances of you three as a scumteam making that gambit (chances that I find minuscule but tinfoil is tinfoil, I guess).

@Zeonth can correct me if I'm wrong. This applies with less frustration to @Bartozio's Zeo vote.

 

[Mystic Arcanum]

Broke the spoiler tag it seems, but that should be readable still.

[Athena_57]

I continue to agree with basically anything Fenrir says.

Pretty sure Junk is just paranoid town, I dont see the scum benefit in him voicing this scumteam and pushing Bart hard. FMPOV either Bart and I are town, in which case scum!junk is forced to drop his case on me when Bart flips town or Bart is scum and Im town in which case this is some really hard bussing.

In any case, I think Junks case is in good faith. @Junk could you talk to me about the Fable/Bart interactions? Im not seeing them, yet am seeing Evan/Bart interactions where they softdefend/softbus at the same time yet collectively push for a fable lynch.

[Athena_57]

@Fenrir Aesir I think the scummy people in the nonvoters ate Bart/Evan, maybe Rad/zeo. I want to lynch evan since a scum flip looks really bad for bart and a townflip looks bad for zeo.

[Mystic Arcanum]

Thanks for deleting my post, SF. Not retyping the whole of it because it's 5:30 in the morning, so here's a sort-of summary of my thoughts.

Fable seems way more rational in their recent posts and I'm looking forward to more of Rational Fable because I think they'll be way easier to analyze. @Fable when I consider our interactions from an outside perspective I don't see anything that specifically rules out w/w, what makes you say this is the case in your response to Evan? Mack I'm pretty sure was responding specifically to Makaze's call for pressure on Zeo.

@XnadrojX see what I just said to Fable in that last line I guess, main reason a wagon exists on Zeo is pressure. Athena and Bart have more reasons you should be able to see by clicking the votes. Why does an Evan townflip make it more likely there's a wolf in Fable/Makaze?

@Mackc2 would appreciate getting a better idea of where you're mindset's at currently regarding Evan and who you think is town currently.

I found that GIF a while ago (like when I joined my first MU game a while ago) and have been searching for an excuse to use it since.

Highkey I think a large part of me is "shook" by Mack and Athena both being like "Your thing about Bart pushes me closer to scum!Bart," like I don't get scumvibes from either especially; I think I'm maybe not used to my arguments changing peoples' minds /shrug

@Junk what are your thoughts then on my response to Evan's thing re: Zeo's reads? I agree with you on the "Zeo was playing catchup" bit although that's more NAI and prior to his readlist there weren't many solid conclusions from that catchup, hence the pressure. As far as my Fable read goes it probably was outdated given I'm just now finally reaching page 29, although it hasn't changed much from what I said to Evan about it.

"evan seems unlikely after that vote from athena cuz evan is already under decent pressure why would scum try to bus"-if Evan is lynched today and flips scum, how does that impact your view of Bart/Athena/Fable?

Fable's kind of a ? slot for me because I'm trying to filter through the aggression and when I filter through it there isn't much left. The only things that were really moving me towards scum for him prior to Makaze's post were his fixation on Makaze and the comparison to the MU game I linked, but the points I found in favor of town!Fable are also weak ones because they're only a couple of specific moments as opposed to something consistent.[/quote]

With the only real difference being the aforementioned looking forward to Rational Fable. Who's "Zeonth vote switch" are you referring to?

@Zeonth ain't fully off the hook until he finishes those other reads of his, but I'm pretty sure he's aware of this and I don't know if I'll be on again before EoD, hence

##Unvote: @Zeonth

##Vote: @EvanManManMan

[Mystic Arcanum]

What about an Evan townflip looks bad for Zeo?

[Zeonth]

Some more of my reads before Fenrir sleeps. Want to see his responses if he has time while I finish since it's 6am.

EvanManManMan- unchanged (scumread). Target of my lynch. Started early as a scumread for his “forced” entry in RVS and his randomly placed reads. He also never really answered the initial question I posed for him in my first wallpost.

Fable- null (scum lean)- Thoughts remain relatively unchanged but the time he’s taken to reconsider his Makaze OMGUS tunnel has helped me to view him in a more positive light. Still possible he could be scum, but I feel like another scumteam is more likely. Started as a null read and dropped into scumlean as his interactions with Maka/Evan tunnel OMGUSes continued. Recent posts demonstrate his ability to read content and interactions and (grudgingly) accept his initial reads may have been wrong, a 180 from the stubbornness he displayed all of day 1, bringing my read back closer to null, as the scum lean is still there.  

Makaze- town lean- Your review of your thoughts and you willingness to change reads and apply pressure on someone you had viewed as a town read after being presented new evidence continues to ring towny in my mind. My town read on you has slightly dropped after me giving my initial thoughts on you/evan/fable, as you were online and posting afterwards without offering comments. This may just be due to the fact I had not posted my full reads list, yet. Your initial lynch on me was as pressure, you switch to Evan and somehow decide he is towny enough and pressure me back. Do my posts give you enough reason to take a pressure lynch off me? If you keep your lynch, explain what of my reads changed your mind and turned your pressure lynch into a scumlynch. Initial thoughts on him were null. I expected him to be better than just a Fable tunneler and was disappointed that he wasted half the phase only messing with Fable. His later reads on D1 ((after my first wallpost)) moved him to a town lean before he became my biggest townlean D2 and then dropped back to lean for reasons mentioned.

RADicate- leaning town- Initial thoughts on Xand/Athena and his analysis of Xand’s reactions and reasonings read as towny to me. His town read increased drastically when he made his analysis of Fenrir and pointed out the possibility of his scuminess. Had he continued his strong posts into D2 (I know, hypocritical coming from me), he would be a town read, but this has dropped him to a town lean instead.

Fenrir Aesir- null- Initially had you as pretty null, even with your interactions with Athena/Bart and your flawed argument. While I read RAD as towny for his reads against you, I did not agree with them and did not feel a need to bring you up D1. Reading your posts as you make them, I feel my reads on you starting to change. The spoiler page you post and analysis on my Maka/Fable/Evan post is spot on and shows your ability to look at things objectively and intelligently, especially after Bart’s “confusion” which he used to push me. Your level-headedness makes me value your reads all the more and I am moving you up to a town lean midway through this post.