Training Mafia 3.0: Advanced - GAMEOVER

[Athena_57]

2 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

Do you think I actually read the rules? Thanks for pointing that out though I did miss it. So that means it has to be a vigilante in which case who do you think was the one killed by the vig?

 

17 hours ago, athena_57 said:

RAD - Coasting on an early townread. Bothered to respond to questions yesterday, but didn't provide cases, reads or a pressure vote. Reminds me of lazyscum!me who just skims the thread looking for pings, answers them and peaces out. Fenrir dying could be a framejob (assuming he was the mafkill, which I am, he was productive and collective townread I feel), but it is quite convenient.

I think Fenrir makes sense as a mafkill and no fucking sense as a vigshot.

[Mackc2]

Then that leaves makaze as the vigshot, so who do you think would shoot makaze?

[Athena_57]

3 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

Then that leaves makaze as the vigshot, so who do you think would shoot makaze?

I have no intention to PR hunt. If they feel they need to claim they will do it.

In fact, I think it's a scummy thing to ask this question. Additionally, the reason I asked you about the numbers was that I got the impression you were trying to fake you didn't know them, which makes sense as a mafia play.

[Mackc2]

1 minute ago, athena_57 said:

I have no intention to PR hunt. If they feel they need to claim they will do it.

In fact, I think it's a scummy thing to ask this question. Additionally, the reason I asked you about the numbers was that I got the impression you were trying to fake you didn't know them, which makes sense as a mafia play.

Is it scummy though? What does scum have to gain by finding the vigilante? We can't just rely on claim either cause claiming as that vigshot is free towncred so why wouldn't some scum just lie and say they are the vig? 

[Athena_57]

2 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

Is it scummy though? What does scum have to gain by finding the vigilante? We can't just rely on claim either cause claiming as that vigshot is free towncred so why wouldn't some scum just lie and say they are the vig? 

I think it IS scummy. If the vig is a 1-shot, are a vanilla now and claim, scum is closer to finding other PR's. If the vig has multiple shots fsr, he risks getting killed.

Scum wouldn't lie, cause it gets them a counterclaim, which brings them a 1v1 they would lose because the real vig can presumably prove why they would take the shot.

[Athena_57]

7 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

Additionally, the reason I asked you about the numbers was that I got the impression you were trying to fake you didn't know them, which makes sense as a mafia play.

This holds for Fable too by the way, who posted ITP spec after my initial post pointing Junk at the rules.

[Mackc2]

1 minute ago, athena_57 said:

I think it IS scummy. If the vig is a 1-shot, are a vanilla now and claim, scum is closer to finding other PR's. If the vig has multiple shots fsr, he risks getting killed.

Scum wouldn't lie, cause it gets them a counterclaim, which brings them a 1v1 they would lose because the real vig can presumably prove why they would take the shot.

Good point I didn't think of that, I still intend to try and figure the vigilante out so I can narrow in on scum more however I will probably keep that information to myself unless it becomes important for making a distinction in picking a scumteam. 

[Athena_57]

@Mackc2 How do you feel about my point on faking knowlege wrt numbers? You will deny it's true for you of course, but how do think it reflects on Fable?

@Fable Same question, but with respect to Mackc

[Mackc2]

1 minute ago, athena_57 said:

@Mackc2 How do you feel about my point on faking knowlege wrt numbers? You will deny it's true for you of course, but how do think it reflects on Fable?

I don't see the scum intent in the action what is scums end goal in suggesting there is an ITP? Confuse town a little? then what? Do you think scum could try to push a lynch on someone based on "they might be the SK"? 

[Athena_57]

2 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

I don't see the scum intent in the action what is scums end goal in suggesting there is an ITP? Confuse town a little? then what? Do you think scum could try to push a lynch on someone based on "they might be the SK"? 

That, and more importantly, scum knows numbers without reading OP (They know how many people are in mafteam, and 3 maf + ITP is lol in 13P). By acting like they don't know them, they hope to get towncred for apparently not knowing the numbers.

[Iris]

Day 3: Automated Votals from #750 to #810

RADicate (3): Bartozio, Fable, XnadrojX
Bartozio (2): athena_57, Junk
Not voting (3): Mackc2, RADicate, Zeonth

Phase ends in 24h26m. Hammer at 6.

Vote history:

 

athena_57 (1): Bartozio

Bartozio (1): RADicate

Fable (2): Bartozio -> RADicate

Junk (1): Bartozio

XnadrojX (1): RADicate

<Beta v2.0.4>

Edited June 25, 2018 by Iris

[Mackc2]

1 minute ago, athena_57 said:

That, and more importantly, scum knows numbers without reading OP (They know how many people are in mafteam, and 3 maf + ITP is lol in 13P). By acting like they don't know them, they hope to get towncred for apparently not knowing the numbers.

I suppose they could just get the numbers from looking at how many players they have in their team. Yeah then that puts dents in my argument, I suppose mafia could have not known that it was in the rules and made a statement like that to act like they didn't know, and using that logic they would then be assuming that it would give them towncred. Its possible, I wouldn't consider it a serious argument though. 

[Mackc2]

by itself anyway

[Athena_57]

5 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

I suppose they could just get the numbers from looking at how many players they have in their team. Yeah then that puts dents in my argument, I suppose mafia could have not known that it was in the rules and made a statement like that to act like they didn't know, and using that logic they would then be assuming that it would give them towncred. Its possible, I wouldn't consider it a serious argument though. 

 

2 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

by itself anyway

Oh, I'm not suggesting you or Fable should be lynched over this, it can come from town as well, for me it's a small thing I'm keeping in mind with respect to the two of you.

[Mackc2]

@Zeonth I read your ISO and I don't understand how Evan flipping scum makes you town read Fable, could you please explain it to me? Since Makaze is town it doesn't sound strange for Evan to pocket Makaze to hide their connection to fable. That said I don't think Fable is scum because Bartozio is still my main scumread and I don't see both scum bussing Fable. 
##Vote: @Bartozio
I am going to bed, I plan to look through all the scum teams I see are possible and identify the most likely ones tomorrow. Unless I find something crazy the team will probably be bart and someone else so I am leaving this vote here in case I get lazy and just don't bother actually doing any of that. 

[Athena_57]

6 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

@Zeonth I read your ISO and I don't understand how Evan flipping scum makes you town read Fable, could you please explain it to me? Since Makaze is town it doesn't sound strange for Evan to pocket Makaze to hide their connection to fable. That said I don't think Fable is scum because Bartozio is still my main scumread and I don't see both scum bussing Fable. 
##Vote: @Bartozio
I am going to bed, I plan to look through all the scum teams I see are possible and identify the most likely ones tomorrow. Unless I find something crazy the team will probably be bart and someone else so I am leaving this vote here in case I get lazy and just don't bother actually doing any of that. 

I swear Mackc if you don't provide us with a full scumteam I will hunt you until the ends of the earth, which should be somewhere in Australia. Huh, convenient.

(More seriously though, please tell us which scumteam you feel is most likely if Bart flips scum and which if Bart flips town)

[Athena_57]

^^^^ 

I don't mean right now by the way, just at some point

[Athena_57]

Something I'd like to discuss is yesterday's Zeo wagon. I started it partly as pressure, partly as bait wagon and as a result had scumreads on Makaze and Bartozio who hopped on and never left.

@Bartozio Considering you think Zeo's town, what do you make of this? Why didn't scum hop on this relatively easy counterwagon to evan?

[Bartozio]

2 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

Something I'd like to discuss is yesterday's Zeo wagon. I started it partly as pressure, partly as bait wagon and as a result had scumreads on Makaze and Bartozio who hopped on and never left.

@Bartozio Considering you think Zeo's town, what do you make of this? Why didn't scum hop on this relatively easy counterwagon to evan?

Most people on the wagon were only there for pressure, which makes it a pretty tough wagon to actually push over Evan. It's also relevant to note Rad never posted after the wagon started, so he might have actually missed the whole thing.

Junk could have decided I was more likely to actually get lynched, since people didn't like my vote on Zeonth, and well.... you started the wagon.

I'm pretty convinced Xnad is town anyway, so I guess it's just another good point in favor of Fable and Mack?

Actually, not even that, since if Fable is scum, he was hard going for towncred by bussing Evan, so he could very well have hoped the Zeo wagon would go off without him.

And I'm not really sure how aware Mack was of what was happening in the thread at the time, considering he only made one post asking me to make sure I responded to stuff if I hadn't.

Soooo, it's not really relevant for me in the end.

[Athena_57]

@Bartozio

I think you missed these questions (sorry if you're still working on the answer/haven't gotten to this yet)

21 hours ago, athena_57 said:

@Bartozio 

I would like for you to find a second scumread to assemble a scumteam.

 

21 hours ago, athena_57 said:

so either a scumpartner for RAD, or two people who make sense as buddies

So I'd like you to find a second scumread who fits as scumbuddy with RAD (or if you conclude there is no-one, a scumteam without him)

[Athena_57]

2 hours ago, Bartozio said:

Most people on the wagon were only there for pressure, which makes it a pretty tough wagon to actually push over Evan. It's also relevant to note Rad never posted after the wagon started, so he might have actually missed the whole thing.

Junk could have decided I was more likely to actually get lynched, since people didn't like my vote on Zeonth, and well.... you started the wagon.

I'm pretty convinced Xnad is town anyway, so I guess it's just another good point in favor of Fable and Mack?

Actually, not even that, since if Fable is scum, he was hard going for towncred by bussing Evan, so he could very well have hoped the Zeo wagon would go off without him.

And I'm not really sure how aware Mack was of what was happening in the thread at the time, considering he only made one post asking me to make sure I responded to stuff if I hadn't.

Soooo, it's not really relevant for me in the end.

That looks fair I think, thank you.

[Bartozio]

Working on it.

So far, Athena doesn't make sense as Rad's buddy to me, calling him out on staying under the radar when his other buddy is about to get lynched is.... lol.

Junk makes more sense, since all he's ever said about Rad is that his posts just look good. He did suspect Evan during D1 (even voted him), but it was the first vote and unlikely to really go anywhere.

Fable is never scum with Rad, for the same reason he's not scum with Zeo (no thread control).

Mack I could see being scum with Rad, since he never really mentions him.

Junk makes more sense then Mack though, because of his interactions with the Evan wagon.

Currently considering scumteams without Rad just in case, will post it in a bit.

[Bartozio]

So basicly, Zeo and and Xnad are obv town for me and I won't consider them for scum teams. On others:

I've mentioned it a few times, but Fable's play only makes sense with a buddy who thread control for him. The heavy bussing would also mean it's likely someone who's not under heavy suspision. That pretty much leaves Athena for me. I feel Athena never really showed much suspision towards Fable. He made points here and there (like the earlier thing about numbers), but never really went indept I feel.

@athena_57 maybe I missed it, but can you give your opinions on Fable?

Junk pushing Athena to an early wagon D1 feels odd, and he kept it up quite a bit. Don't think they're buddies. Mack and Junk both going all in pushing me in a last ditch effort to save their buddy doesn't sound like a plausible scenario, as it's way too likely to backfire into horrendous results.

Athena and Mack I could see, gonna read into that more later.

All in all, Rad and Junko feels more likely though.

 

[RADicate]

Feeling very very demotivated atm; but lemme catch up and respond to junk. Briefly skimmed and since vigilante probably exists I will politely ask then never to shoot obvitownie athena. The case on me is presumably based on my inactivity to which i dont have much of a defense to offer. Feel free to @me with particular questions while i go write up a readlist. 

[RADicate]

Athena-Praise be to our local townleader athena. Gut was calling them town after d1 (hence me mildly defending them d1); maintained activity drive converstation and did so productively; agree with many of their thoughts and interactions arent incriminating in the slightest. My world would need to be flipped upside for the slot to ever flip.

Jordan- Probably never scum if bartz flips red here. Willing to call him my second strongest townread on the basis bartz probably flips red. 

Junko- Showing progression in thoughts; enjoying his imput. Giving original imput that somewhat goes against the grain and overall looks like a solid slot; both tonally and content wise. Down with assuming town until further notice. Probably one of my weaker townreads up here fwiw. Bart scumflip on this slot looks very good and more comfortable with the read.

Fable- Evan flip looks very good on him; before that he was pretty null and I cant toneread that earlier play where he appeared to be more than annoyed with makaze to save my life either way and trust myself with that. The possibility exists that he knew the d1 flip off of satsu onto evan wouldnt happen and thats why he recc'd it but thats probably my personal paranoia. Especially considering how little he seemed to care for the game that d1 (hypocricy ik fight me)

Zeo- Zeo's thought proccesses match up for the most part with how zeo plays on PS as town using flips to determine alignments (can grab the post that made me make this connection upon request; writing this up on a seperate notepad atm because i dont feel like losing all this). I'd like to put zeo wanting to be using Evan's flip to ascertain and clarify reads on fable/makaze in positive light tbh. I think scum in that situation generally wouldnt put that kind of excuse behind a busvote. But at the same time he also said evan was a scumread for him; wouldnt that be the primary reason for the vote? This gap between his stated reason for the vote and his stated read (maybe gap isn't the right word here; but hopefully my point got across) mildly pings me. Still leaning town on it though.  


Mack- If bartz doesnt flip scum this is borderline 100% wolf fmpov.Mostly cause of POE for the most part; the overly catious play annoys the heck out of me and pings my scumdar excessively... but apparently thats his meta? IJOSJFOS the worst part of this is actually toneread them as townie. Hence me calling them town earlier. Started out in defense of bart and I cant figure out how to read ISO's using the script; i downloaded the monkey w/e tamper thing. But anywho i cant find his progression from defending bartz as at the very least a paranoid null/slight scumlean but more likely a slight townlean into his primary SR. It seems like a bit of a 180 and if caution is the townmeta i dont see this happening without outside influence. The only thing stopping me from calling the scumteam based on this would be the potential mentor influnece. FMPOV though: This flip in reads considering bartz is probably flipping red here fmpov reads as an effort to get towncred from the inevitable flip of a universally SR'd person.

UNIVERSAL QUESTION: People here who have scumteamed with bartz before should lmk how likely he is to tell mackc to bus him here? That would be the quickest explanation for mack breaking meta borderline inexplicably.

Bartz- Borderline universal SR for a good reason. Could be just bad timing from his POV; but he basically. I can kinda deal with the consolidation vote onto satsu being viewed as bad; consolidation votes are pretty NAI for the most part. Upon reevaluation I dont like his war with xnad; seems like he was just annoying xnad so he had something to show. He also dropped the ball on that far too easily for the strength of the read he had on xnad. Inclined to believe someone as out of touch with the game as evan was wouldnt have gone out of their way to frame bartz with a soft TR/defense and considering the fact he wasnt doing much homework on bartz afaict  he was (more than likely) not wanting to put more heat on his already SR'd partner. Tldr Incriminating reactions and pings from interactions with jordan solidify this as likely scum.
Final Note:
If/when bartz flips scum then imma have to go back and check everyone's case they made on the slot and see who is most likely to be bussing it. Most likely atm probably being mackc (subject to reevaluation).My tonal reads make me hesitant on that though. (Considering litterally the whole game scumreads the slot bar potentially zeo?) Figured out this POE as i was writing up this post tbh; and now im tired because i worked 9 hours at work today so not going back and doing that now. Will be stalking thread for a bit if anyone wants to talk though.