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Training Mafia 3.0: Advanced - GAMEOVER


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7 minutes ago, Makaze said:

You've been floating there for a little while, but yeah, these questions aren't going anywhere.

The right question is "How are you solving?"

I mean, looking at somebody's posts and coming to a conclusion is solving is it not?

And I don't have the tools nor the time that somebody like you have so you can't expect as in depth stuff than what I've given.

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8 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I'm really liking how you're responding to my case, and I don't think you make sense with my other scum reads, so you have moved down.

But, lines like this "It's like... his posts are bad, but they're better then last game, so I'm not really scumreading him for it?" ping me really bad, and make me doubt my never w/w statement.

You are the most likely lynch today. Evan has to be aware of that. What do you think of Evan's passive town read on you in light of how people have you as their top read?

I am aware that Bart is a likely lynch candidate so I gave my thoughts on him and I don't think he is that scummy. I do recognize this stuff and idk why you are saying that I'm not.

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1 minute ago, EvanManManMan said:

I mean, looking at somebody's posts and coming to a conclusion is solving is it not?

And I don't have the tools nor the time that somebody like you have so you can't expect as in depth stuff than what I've given.

No... Solving is trying to put together the entire game state.

1 minute ago, EvanManManMan said:

I am aware that Bart is a likely lynch candidate so I gave my thoughts on him and I don't think he is that scummy. I do recognize this stuff and idk why you are saying that I'm not.

You're not actively trying to convince others. You're distancing yourself from the lynch the same way you did with Satsuma. If you're sure he's town, then you need to do a better job of steering the town to the right people.

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Like...

If this is the best you can do, it's simply not good enough to win the game, unfortunately. At some point -- IMO, D2 is the standard -- you have to have read every player and be up to date on all of them so that your reads aren't happening in a vacuum. The longer you wait the worse the catchup is, and then you're just a drag on the team.

How do you plan to make up for that disadvantage?

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2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

No... Solving is trying to put together the entire game state.

You're not actively trying to convince others. You're distancing yourself from the lynch the same way you did with Satsuma. If you're sure he's town, then you need to do a better job of steering the town to the right people.

Well I'm not in a position, due to inactivity, not having that many strong reads and people like Zeonth and Xandroj doing absolutely nothing to put the entire game together.

You are criticizing me for not trying to convince others but the only people here are me, you, and Bart. What are you expecting me to do? It's not a strong read on Bart. I have him as slight town. I'd prefer somwbody else being lynched but if it has to be Bart then so be it. I think the lynch gives decent info as well. If somebody like Athena or Junk was in Bart's place I would probably interject to try and prevent the lynch but I don't feel that strong with Bart.

I didn't distance from the Satsuma lynch because I said I was fine with the wagon. However I had a more developed and stronger wolf read on Fable so I voted there. My vote wasn't needed to lynch them either. This is different from then and in neither case was I distancing.

And I don't know his alignment for sure. You act like I do. If the consensus wants to flip Bart then so be it. I don't have that strong of a read on him.

And since according to you, I need to steer the town in the right direction

##Vote @Fable

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8 minutes ago, Makaze said:

But, lines like this "It's like... his posts are bad, but they're better then last game, so I'm not really scumreading him for it?" ping me really bad, and make me doubt my never w/w statement.

He had a spat with Via not unlike the recent one with Fable, and his posts were all over the place as well with even less content.

I don't think people are scum for playing like they did in a town game, sorry dude.

8 minutes ago, Makaze said:

You are the most likely lynch today. Evan has to be aware of that. What do you think of Evan's passive town read on you in light of how people have you as their top read?

In a vacuum, it's bad because if he thinks I'm town, he should try to convince people to not lynch me, instead of just stating his read (makes it seem more likely he wants to profit from a misslynch).

I can see town!him wanting to focus more on finding scum though, and I'm not sure scum!him would  risk shading Fable like that when he could just sit back and watch me get lynched (this part is obviously meaningless if you think we're scum together though).

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5 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Like...

If this is the best you can do, it's simply not good enough to win the game, unfortunately. At some point -- IMO, D2 is the standard -- you have to have read every player and be up to date on all of them so that your reads aren't happening in a vacuum. The longer you wait the worse the catchup is, and then you're just a drag on the team.

How do you plan to make up for that disadvantage?

I'm completely aware that I'm not doing a very good job. And I know that at this rate, I'm going to be the mislynch in LyLo. However I feel like what I've given isn't completely lacking and that what I am doing is to a degree solving. I would be caught up had I not been busy IRL and if I had ISOs. I plan on reading over Fenrir and if I have time, catching up on day 1 during night so I can develop reads on those like Zeo and Xandroj who have shown virtually no presence today.

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Am back.

Question that occurred to me while I was away for @Fable, since one thing I saw you mention several times in your other games was "wagonomics is my thing": what do you think of the Rad unvote/EoD comment on the Satsuma wagon?

Going back to read Rad's response now, as I haven't been able to do that yet, then going to finish the ISOs.

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3 minutes ago, Fenrir Aesir said:

Am back.

Question that occurred to me while I was away for @Fable, since one thing I saw you mention several times in your other games was "wagonomics is my thing": what do you think of the Rad unvote/EoD comment on the Satsuma wagon?

Going back to read Rad's response now, as I haven't been able to do that yet, then going to finish the ISOs.

I think he's a derp that can't keep track of when EoD is. Wasn't notable at the time IMO but I'll take another look after work.

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3 minutes ago, Fable said:

"My posts are bad because Zeo and Bomb Moss arn't posting"

I lol'd.

Yeah man, you're beginning to sound like Fable:

On 6/21/2018 at 12:45 PM, Fable said:

How well I do this phase is entirely dependent on if you guys get good. 

Stop burying your heads in the sand just so you can shruglynch lhf. 

We need to be able to analyze things and to have things to analyze we need content and to have content we need to start talking to each other instead of just posting thread summaries and peaceing out for half the day. 

I am feeling a lot better about Evan and Bart both after interacting.

Evan more so. I think he genuinely annoyed and busy, and he is responding perfectly as he would if he were town in this scenario.

Back to Zeo

##Vote: @Zeonth

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@Makaze, your Bart case was pretty bad imo. You were scumreading him for swapping between formal/informal tone, which to me seems very possible from mentored town. Then you're referencing his play with a scumgame, but not a towngame and finally saying his satsuma vote was uninspired when it was a clear consolidation vote.

The gutparts in the beginning and end are fine and I agree that Fable vote was easy, but the bulk of it is sloppy at best.

Also, where did than never w/w comment come from? I'm not following that.

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@Zeonth

When you decide to post your reads, I would like you to post both your current reads and your reads as you had them at EOD before the flip, preferably accompanied by the reasons for changes.

I'm way more interested in your progression on those than a catch-up wall.

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11 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

@Makaze, your Bart case was pretty bad imo. You were scumreading him for swapping between formal/informal tone, which to me seems very possible from mentored town. Then you're referencing his play with a scumgame, but not a towngame and finally saying his satsuma vote was uninspired when it was a clear consolidation vote.

The gutparts in the beginning and end are fine and I agree that Fable vote was easy, but the bulk of it is sloppy at best.

Also, where did than never w/w comment come from? I'm not following that.

Eh, I thought it was really telling at the time, and I'm now coming back around. You should know that I latch onto things I consider hard tells because I did it to Omega and I am trying to fix that, but I ran this by my mentor, and the scum game being more casual did not help change my case. I would consider the tone differences the most damning thing, and if they are not damning, then nothing is that bad, putting him back in null territory.

But like I said I'm leaning town after how well he took my case, I don't think he reacted badly if he is town and this just his way of playing.

Company is calling me so I won't be around until late tonight, but I will keep reading in my spare time while I wait for Zeo's reaction.

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24 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

Bart, how do you feel about zeo?

He should see an Eury wall, before calling these jokes wallposts

Not good honestly. He mostly just responds to random things, instead of focussing on who he feels are scummy. It's either bad time management as town, or an attempt to hide in the background as scum. Considering how his posts feel disconnected from one another and don't really draw conclusions or even bring up past suspicions, more inclined to go with the later.

On 20-6-2018 at 11:47 PM, Zeonth said:

*Agreeing with Fenrir here, as it did seem Junk was setting up a possible lynch on Xand early with his “info lynch” plan. It also seemed like a backtrack when he mentioned that it would only be as a last resort. This is also around the time when Xand started to get lynched (iirc Bart and Athena lynch on him sometime after Junk’s initial “info lynch” post). Leaving Xand as a possible easy lynch option N1? Possibility that 1 of these three (Junk, Bart, Athena) could be scum?

<formatted for an easier reading time>

Quick example of what I'm talking about, he comes to a very weak conclusion (1 in 3 people maybe being scum when 25% of the game is scum is barely a read), and doesn't put in any effort to figure out who of these three is more likely the scum member. I don't think he even mentions Athena or Junk afterwards, and while he does mention me, it never seems to relate to this theory.

Still dislike Fable more, but willing to consolidate here.

@athena_57 and @Makaze, can you guys respond to my Fable case, other then one line being the bane of all evil?

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I don't disagree with your case, in fact, I think it is correct, and I still think he is scum, but I'm done pushing that train and arguing with him.

I will vote there if others will vote there, and I have made my case known.

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3 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

 

@athena_57 and @Makaze, can you guys respond to my Fable case, other then one line being the bane of all evil?

Could you post a TL;DR of your case or link me one if you posted one before?

Main point I remember from you is him waiting before giving his reads/cases, which I think is not even weird for these two cases.

What were the other points brought up by you again?

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Reads part ⅓. Expect aq lynch at the end of post 3.

First group are Makaze, Fable, Evan, as I feel these three are so closely intertwined at this point that I’m surprised nobody has mentioned their scumread circle-jerk.

Makaze starts the day (1) with an early scumread on Fable that sticks around up to this current point. He also brings one up on Evan in the same post and keeps this scumread throughout the game until now, too (voted Fable initially D1 and has changed to vote Evan D2 as of the time I am writing this). Fable OMGUSes Makaze early on and by the time D1 ends, both Fable and Evan have each other lynched. They also both start off D2 this way and continually scumread each other (without much real logic (mostly from Evan)).
____________________________________________________________________________

Individual reads:


Makaze- Starts off D1 focusing solely on Fable to the point where all of his reads are NAI and basically useless to me (pointed out in my first post where I said he was trying to look active while doing fuck all). Over the course of late D1 (mostly where he posts his reads list, I get a much clearer picture of him and see that he is focusing on more than just his two gut reads, although still prioritizing them. His interactions with Athena D2 and his willingness to change his mind when faced with new opinions as well as shifting plur and applying pressure to me and Evan reads very townie, as I honestly expected him to remain stubborn in his reads and assume he was right. Town Read.

Fable- Honestly, between the promises of better content and activity towards the end of D1, I was disappointed that he never really offered solid reasonings on his reads. His refusal to ask questions (referring to me, as he claims he has had some but has yet to make a post and tag me in it) while also saying he needs to interact with people to get reads makes me think he is sliding by too easily without very much pressure. He can afford to keep making weak reads/pushes as the only people threatening him so far are the two he’s threatened back. He chocks all of this up to “meta” and I’ve seen a lot of other talk about player’s meta in this thread since most of you have played with each other before. As someone who has not played with you all before, would you read me the same way as Fable or let me slide if I made the same kinds of moves as him? (I am currently being pressured by 2-3 people based on my posts thus far). Leaning Scum Read.

Evan- An early intro post that I can only assume was meant to be a joke made me initially scumread him and his random reappearance to townread only Athena before vanishing again without posting reasonings (while Athena was in the middle of the Xand/Bartozio interactions) felt even further off. His late phase posting on D1 (described as potshots) seemed very ill-informed and he spent most of the time reacting to new posts in the last few hours without catching up on previous pages (he claimed being on page 5 while actively replying to Fable and others on the current pages) leaving me to believe a lot of his late phase reads hold little to no merit and were likely not well thought out. His continuation of these lackluster reads (current posts, including the sentiment that he can’t get a proper read on the game because of my/xand’s lack of posts) does not help his case for me, as he should be able to make a reads post of the players who are active. He also made this post: “I'm completely aware that I'm not doing a very good job. And I know that at this rate, I'm going to be the mislynch in LyLo” which leaves a very bad taste in my mouth as he is assuming he will make it to lylo for some reason? I view this as an attempt at wifom (he uses this early sentiment to keep lynches away from himself in lylo) or as an excuse for later lackluster logic in a *ylo setting. It’s not something I would view a town player as saying, at the very least. Scum Read.

____________________________________________________________________________

There are 3 mafia members left. Of this pool of three (maka, fable, evan), I view it as almost impossible that all three are scum based on their history of interactions. There’s bussing, and then there’s this. At the very least, I view two of them as being town (with the possibility of 1 scum in this pool) with Evan being the most likely scum and Maka being most likely town. Fable is leaning scumread.

Before *ylo, I would like to see Evan lynched (and first out of these three). If Evan flips town, I would read Fable as likely scum. If Evan flips mafia, then I would see Fable and Makaze as town.

If Fable were to be lynched before Evan and he flips town, my scumread on Evan remains. If Fable is lynched first and flips mafia, my scumread on Evan remains (though, weakened) and the possibility of Makaze being third scum comes into play (primarily if Evan is then lynched to flip second scum).

In no scenario do I wish Makaze to be lynched as of this moment based on my reads of him.

____________________________________________________________________________

I am aware of the post you made, Athena, while I was writing this post here and will be sure to express my thoughts at EoD 1 and their evolution in a follow up post for each player, these three included.

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9 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Eh, I thought it was really telling at the time, and I'm now coming back around. You should know that I latch onto things I consider hard tells because I did it to Omega and I am trying to fix that, but I ran this by my mentor, and the scum game being more casual did not help change my case. I would consider the tone differences the most damning thing, and if they are not damning, then nothing is that bad, putting him back in null territory.

But like I said I'm leaning town after how well he took my case, I don't think he reacted badly if he is town and this just his way of playing.

Company is calling me so I won't be around until late tonight, but I will keep reading in my spare time while I wait for Zeo's reaction.

Mkay.

Could you answer my question on where your "never w/w"-statement came from?

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@athena_57

sleep is for the weak, have more reading material.

4 hours ago, Bartozio said:

Being lazy would be not wanting to read stuff, or writing out a huge wallpost. That's not what this is.
He has been voicing frustration with Makaze since quite a while before that vote, so he clearly wasn't too lazy to post. It reads to me like he basicly said "my meta is not posting for a hlaf a day, so I don't have to post for half a day".

More in general, In IDNSFMM, he didn't really contribute early day either, but it was pretty clear there that he just didn't have real reads. Here he had them, but choose to wait with posting them. Town would want to actually push stuff they find scummy right away, since it gives them more time to convince others. Scum would love to wait with playing seriously if they can get away with it, because it's less opportunities to get caught. This feels like a really easy conclusion to me, but considering I seem to be the consensus scumread instead of him, apparently I'm wrong (about it being obvious)? Can people please explain to me how this makes sense for Fable as town?

3 hours ago, Bartozio said:

The Makaze case feels like it's unnecessary to wait though. Like, you mentioned him not giving reasons when you or other people asked and him not trying to engage you. If you felt that to be true, why did you think time would make a difference?

Add to that the fact that you didn't really talk about what Mak had been doing in the time you waited (he did actually engage people about other suspects), and it makes me very doubtful you were expecting anything to change. Heck, your case should have felt good enough if he refused to talk to people about why you were scum.

 

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10 minutes ago, Zeonth said:

There are 3 mafia members left. Of this pool of three (maka, fable, evan), I view it as almost impossible that all three are scum based on their history of interactions. There’s bussing, and then there’s this. At the very least, I view two of them as being town (with the possibility of 1 scum in this pool) with Evan being the most likely scum and Maka being most likely town. Fable is leaning scumread.

Before *ylo, I would like to see Evan lynched (and first out of these three). If Evan flips town, I would read Fable as likely scum. If Evan flips mafia, then I would see Fable and Makaze as town.

I agree with the notion of it being really unlikely all three are scum and Makaze being the most towny.

What makes you disregard Evan and Fable as mafia bussing though, considering you think they're both individual scummy?

10 minutes ago, Zeonth said:

If Fable were to be lynched before Evan and he flips town, my scumread on Evan remains. If Fable is lynched first and flips mafia, my scumread on Evan remains (though, weakened) and the possibility of Makaze being third scum comes into play (primarily if Evan is then lynched to flip second scum).

Wait, what? Why in the world does Evan and Fable flipping scum make scum!Makaze more likely, when you "view it as almost impossible that all three are scum based on their history of interactions"?

 

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