June's Legendary Hero Arrives! Hector: Marquess of Ostia (June 28 ~ July 5)

[Jotari]

50 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Sigurd I can't quite judge as I do Seliph. My willingness to judge Seliph is predicated on the premise that FE4 Gen 2 is generally simple, safe and unambitious with its narrative allowing for Seliph to be easily read and digests wholly from the script. There are a few more complicated elements to it I can't really touch, Thracia affairs so much, but Seliph at least is in my reach. Sigurd and Leif are caught up in more complex plots that demand ingame context for me judge effectively.

As for whether Sigurd deserves to belong in the same category as Hector, Ike and Ephraim, in the Perfect Pretty Boy group, or be Chrom's predecessor who straddles the two (before the Hector-muscular group was ever established) is open to debate I shall concede. Although being a noble does not exclude from the Hector group, since otherwise it's just a party of one- Ike (who even has a formerly noble father).

At very worse, I could see one saying he is CQ Corrin's predecessor, blindly causing destruction all over the world. A more sympathetic reading though could cast him as being a pure and simple warrior at heart whose innocent loyalty is his doom, and such a reading leans him more towards the Hector group I think. I think one could even argue possibly that Chapters 2-3 Sigurd is a Camus as an aside, which then brings to mind Micaiah's near-Camus nature in Part 3 (she never quite becomes one).

 

Moral greyness would be nice, but it isn't necessary. And yes they aren't the smartest around generally, but the way the stories are told for pre-12 Marth, for Roy, and for Seliph, is that they are basically the ones making all the important decisions and everything successful is attributable to them. Having a meaningful coterie of supporters alleviates this, which they lack.

 

And Roy has Merlinus. Who is sometimes contradicted by Roy to the benefit of success. Elffin also comes later, but more supplements Roy with information than actually make strategy, that is Roy's realm.

 

Lumping Eliwood with Marth, Seliph, and Roy is less on grounds of perfection than on personality. Eliwood I know well isn't perfect, and I do appreciate this aspect of him. Having to share the spotlight with Hector, and FE7 having Mark who exists to be the strategizing mind of the group (and Lyn... exists), is very much why Eliwood isn't perfect I think. Roy is perfect because he alone bears the plot on his shoulders, Eliwood doesn't, to his benefit because it lets him make mistakes and his flaws be seen narratively. The Hellene outburst being Eliwood's, and Hector being the one to say the content of these lines:

  Reveal hidden contents

Hector:
“For generations, our ancestors dedicated themselves to a sort of frugal militarism. Nobles and commoners alike shunned extravagance.”
“Corrupt neither the body nor the mind,” they cried! Since the time of Roland, this has been the dominant ideology of Ostia.

Marcus:
“I heard that when Lord Uther first participated in the Lycian Council as Marquess Ostia, he gave a scathing indictment of the peer system. Now I understand, his philosophy had its roots in the history of Ostia itself.”

Hector:
“That’s right. Yet this thinking… it threatens the lifestyles of many of our aristocrats. So some groups view my brother with enmity. I must grow wiser so that I can sit at my brother’s side and aid him. Of course, my fighting skills are not yet what they should be…”

do well to invert the usual expectations of what these two characters are. Eliwood and Hector compliment each other quite well. And Eliwood probably is the best Pretty Boy (since "Perfect" isn't well suited for him).

 

Understandable. I can see how Soren can come off as being just too "inhumanly smart it's favoritism on the writers' part", well in RD, his brainiac abilities aren't so focused on in PoR.

To be fair, in Dynasty Warriors, a series which has its fair share of playable tacticians, Zhuge Liang turns me off. While all tacticians come off as godly there (but most people in the series seems godly to some extent), Zhuge Liang is just too godly and too mystically aloof, he feels not very human being so legendarily brilliant. I'm more of the Jia Xu or Sima Yi person, they seem to be a bit more grounded.

I wouldn't group Sigurd with Ike and Hector at all. I don't think he makes any Marth like speeches about hating fighting, but he never once relishes battle from what I can recall. In fact, he seems pretty weary of it in Chapter 4. Sigurd is damn good at fighting, but that doesn't make him an eager fighter to any extent. I also don't see him any way similar to Conquest Corrin, as he isn't causing any more havoc than already exists on the continent. There's fighting going on everywhere and he's wrapped up in it by no choice of his own (other than initially departing his castle to stopped Adean getting raped). In terms of personality he's probably most similar to Eliwood truth be told, only things go so much worse for him.

[Icelerate]

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Moral greyness would be nice, but it isn't necessary. And yes they aren't the smartest around generally, but the way the stories are told for pre-12 Marth, for Roy, and for Seliph, is that they are basically the ones making all the important decisions and everything successful is attributable to them. Having a meaningful coterie of supporters alleviates this, which they lack.

And Roy has Merlinus. Who is sometimes contradicted by Roy to the benefit of success. Elffin also comes later, but more supplements Roy with information than actually make strategy, that is Roy's realm.

Well Roy does have a bunch of competent advisors (Marcus, Cecellia) but they don't actually advise him except Merlinus. Merlinus' advice is quite similar to Soren's but instead he's always treated as wrong. 

Quote

Lumping Eliwood with Marth, Seliph, and Roy is less on grounds of perfection than on personality. Eliwood I know well isn't perfect, and I do appreciate this aspect of him. Having to share the spotlight with Hector, and FE7 having Mark who exists to be the strategizing mind of the group (and Lyn... exists), is very much why Eliwood isn't perfect I think. Roy is perfect because he alone bears the plot on his shoulders, Eliwood doesn't, to his benefit because it lets him make mistakes and his flaws be seen narratively. The Hellene outburst being Eliwood's, and Hector being the one to say the content of these lines:

  Reveal hidden contents

Hector:
“For generations, our ancestors dedicated themselves to a sort of frugal militarism. Nobles and commoners alike shunned extravagance.”
“Corrupt neither the body nor the mind,” they cried! Since the time of Roland, this has been the dominant ideology of Ostia.

Marcus:
“I heard that when Lord Uther first participated in the Lycian Council as Marquess Ostia, he gave a scathing indictment of the peer system. Now I understand, his philosophy had its roots in the history of Ostia itself.”

Hector:
“That’s right. Yet this thinking… it threatens the lifestyles of many of our aristocrats. So some groups view my brother with enmity. I must grow wiser so that I can sit at my brother’s side and aid him. Of course, my fighting skills are not yet what they should be…”

do well to invert the usual expectations of what these two characters are. Eliwood and Hector compliment each other quite well. And Eliwood probably is the best Pretty Boy (since "Perfect" isn't well suited for him).

I think Eliwood's personality isn't really all that bland. He seems to have more spirit and colour compared to the other Marth clones. Hector is probably the reason as well as FE7 being more character focused but the reasoning doesn't change the fact he's more interesting in terms of personality. I'm not sure why Lilina wasn't very involved in the plot while Hector was in FE7 but I'm pretty sure Roy would be treated as perfect regardless unlike Eliwood. 

Quote

Understandable. I can see how Soren can come off as being just too "inhumanly smart it's favoritism on the writers' part", well in RD, his brainiac abilities aren't so focused on in PoR.

To be fair, in Dynasty Warriors, a series which has its fair share of playable tacticians, Zhuge Liang turns me off. While all tacticians come off as godly there (but most people in the series seems godly to some extent), Zhuge Liang is just too godly and too mystically aloof, he feels not very human being so legendarily brilliant. I'm more of the Jia Xu or Sima Yi person, they seem to be a bit more grounded.

What are some aspects of Micaiah's character that prevent you from liking her to a higher degree? Just curious since the last time I asked you, your response was quite vague. I'm guessing it's her passive personality which has some resemblance to Mysterious Waif characters who you seem to despise such as Ninian. 

I'll give my take on Sephiran since I'm not a huge fan of his character. I think he needed more screen time in parts 1 and 3. For example, if we saw him at the coronation, congratulating Pelleas and apologizing for the Begnion occupation, he'd have earned more sympathy. Furthermore, in part 3, if we saw him getting dragged to the prison, we'd connect with him more. As of now, the guy barely shows up yet he's the mastermind as well as someone you're supposed to sympathize with. Just showing a lot of flashbacks isn't enough. Real time stuff is more important. Something that Lyon also suffers from but I digress. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

58 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

What are some aspects of Micaiah's character that prevent you from liking her to a higher degree? Just curious since the last time I asked you, your response was quite vague. I'm guessing it's her passive personality which has some resemblance to Mysterious Waif characters who you seem to despise such as Ninian. 

 

Micaiah doesn't play the trope so plainly as Ninian does. Ninian is quite by the books, and is from her introduction defined by being mysterious and fragile and special. She is also kidnapped twice, gets amnesia once, willing lets herself be captured, and then gets Deus Ex Machina'ed back to life. I find the trope problematic as misogyny- treating females as delicate (even if powerful in some way) creatures who need males to support them. The mystery aspect is also supposed to be in some way seductively alluring to the males.

Micaiah, although she does rest on Sothe a few times due to fatigue, she isn't as fragile, and is actually the leader of a group as opposed to the love interest of a male main. Because she is a stronger individual, although her powers are special, in a sense they aren't as defining as they with Ninian. Ninian sans powers, love of Eliwood, and family bond with Nils is just a weak damsel. Micaiah can be a rather strong person even when her powers aren't in play- Part 3 outside of the little time she spends collapsed.

Micaiah also has a secret past, but she doesn't come off as mysterious ooh la la la, well ever really. We find out before Part 1 is even over that she is Branded. She is not the only Branded on Tellius at all either, unlike Ninian who is the only half-Ice Dragon who crossed over from the Dragon's Gate besides her brother in all of Elibe. Branded are a normal part of Tellius, Arcadia might exist, but Ninian isn't from there, she came from another world. 

Micaiah being the True Apostle is only hinted at starting with the end of Part 3, and while this plays into Sanaki's mini character arc, it is not heavily dwelled on in Part 4. Sure Micaiah's powers rest entirely on being the True Apostle, and why P4 doesn't dwell on the past even she didn't know owes something to Micaiah just not having much of the limelight in Part 4. Nonetheless, outside of like the first couple chapters where she is the "Silver Haired Maiden", there is little to no aura of mystery to Micaiah, and she is just a stronger, more independent individual than Ninian, or Micaiah's more direct inspirations Deidre and Julia. 

And I don't dislike Micaiah or anything, I certainly do appreciate her. Why when I finally dive into FEH, one of my priorities is going to be making a little team out of her, RD Ike, Soren, and Sothe. She just doesn't make me leap with enthusiasm. A nice smile to see her featured in something, but not a cry of utter joy.

 

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

I'll give my take on Sephiran since I'm not a huge fan of his character. I think he needed more screen time in parts 1 and 3. For example, if we saw him at the coronation, congratulating Pelleas and apologizing for the Begnion occupation, he'd have earned more sympathy. Furthermore, in part 3, if we saw him getting dragged to the prison, we'd connect with him more. As of now, the guy barely shows up yet he's the mastermind as well as someone you're supposed to sympathize with. Just showing a lot of flashbacks isn't enough. Real time stuff is more important. Something that Lyon also suffers from but I digress. 

Part 1? Yes, I'll agree seeing him at the end would have been a great way to reintroduce his character. And also give him a little time with his greatx30+ granddaughter, which is a kinda important bond that is not actually ever established until a second playthrough in the final fight.

Part 3 being dragged to prison? That would come off as a red herring in retrospect. Why would Sephiran fear prison? Begnion and the Laguz are at war- the plan of mass euthanasia via Medallion breakage is coming along. He has Mantle, the Senate could drop a guillotine on his neck and *tink* it bounces right off, they can't execute him. He also seems to have been able to cunningly flout his imprisonment at will, I would imagine when he told Naesala to free Sanaki he did it after being arrested. He might as well have just chosen to stay behind bars to give Zelgius a clear rendezvous point. And mind you, he had seemingly zero issues being locked up in PoR. This is Tellius's most powerful magic user, even without a tome I could see him shooting off an Ellight or something and taking out his cell guard and then breaking out.

 

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

I think Eliwood's personality isn't really all that bland. He seems to have more spirit and colour compared to the other Marth clones. Hector is probably the reason as well as FE7 being more character focused but the reasoning doesn't change the fact he's more interesting in terms of personality. I'm not sure why Lilina wasn't very involved in the plot while Hector was in FE7 but I'm pretty sure Roy would be treated as perfect regardless unlike Eliwood. 

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Maybe I subconsciously think more on the moments where Eliwood is at his most boring, like the Fiora support, as sweet and considerate as Eliwood is and as good a match the two are, it is a boring support. With Lyn and Hector, Eliwood certainly pops to life more. 

A similar case can be made with Ike, sometimes he has the vibrant flavor of cold raw potato. But put Reyson or Ranulf in the room and he comes to life for instance. Characters have their highs and lows of personality, interactions, and characterization and all.

As for Lilina, FE7 didn't exist during FE6's development, Hector was just the important old guy who dies early on for some plot impetus. Lilina is Roy's Caeda, except having traded her lance and pegasus for a tome and boots, and crazy high Spd for crazy high Mag. Caeda, although important to Marth, ultimately did zilch in the plot of pretty much both of his games, though she did recruit a bunch of characters in Shadow Dragon, which Lilina also does.

 

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

I wouldn't group Sigurd with Ike and Hector at all. I don't think he makes any Marth like speeches about hating fighting, but he never once relishes battle from what I can recall. In fact, he seems pretty weary of it in Chapter 4. Sigurd is damn good at fighting, but that doesn't make him an eager fighter to any extent. I also don't see him any way similar to Conquest Corrin, as he isn't causing any more havoc than already exists on the continent. There's fighting going on everywhere and he's wrapped up in it by no choice of his own (other than initially departing his castle to stopped Adean getting raped). In terms of personality he's probably most similar to Eliwood truth be told, only things go so much worse for him.

Again, I was just saying at very worse, a most dramatic case, for the Corrin comparison. Sigurd didn't invent Agustrian messed up internal relations or play a role in the Loptyrian manipulation of Agustria, but he was more or less if I have it right, the pawn used to bring Agustria under Grannvalian control. Could they have used someone else like Andrei? Yes, I don't see why not. But Sigurd was the one who ultimately did do it in practice. Prior to Chapter 2, Agustria isn't caught up in any warfare at all.

And Sigurd as a great warrior who doesn't exactly love fighting, sounds different in a good way. Does his noble duty amazingly with no love for it, unlike Hector (who often escaped Ostia for the arena), Ephraim (who wanted to run off and make Eirika his body double), and Ike (who loves sparring). Even better, Sigurd is guy! "I fight well but harbor no love of war" sounds more like something a female would say, Eirika is more or less like this, and Celica her original too correct? Maybe not Lyn though (she starts out her journey seeking revenge), and certainly not Micaiah, but pacifism is certainly more a female trait in FE than it is male.

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Micaiah doesn't play the trope so plainly as Ninian does. Ninian is quite by the books, and is from her introduction defined by being mysterious and fragile and special. She is also kidnapped twice, gets amnesia once, willing lets herself be captured, and then gets Deus Ex Machina'ed back to life. I find the trope problematic as misogyny- treating females as delicate (even if powerful in some way) creatures who need males to support them. The mystery aspect is also supposed to be in some way seductively alluring to the males.

Micaiah, although she does rest on Sothe a few times due to fatigue, she isn't as fragile, and is actually the leader of a group as opposed to the love interest of a male main. Because she is a stronger individual, although her powers are special, in a sense they aren't as defining as they with Ninian. Ninian sans powers, love of Eliwood, and family bond with Nils is just a weak damsel. Micaiah can be a rather strong person even when her powers aren't in play- Part 3 outside of the little time she spends collapsed.

Micaiah also has a secret past, but she doesn't come off as mysterious ooh la la la, well ever really. We find out before Part 1 is even over that she is Branded. She is not the only Branded on Tellius at all either, unlike Ninian who is the only half-Ice Dragon who crossed over from the Dragon's Gate besides her brother in all of Elibe. Branded are a normal part of Tellius, Arcadia might exist, but Ninian isn't from there, she came from another world. 

Micaiah being the True Apostle is only hinted at starting with the end of Part 3, and while this plays into Sanaki's mini character arc, it is not heavily dwelled on in Part 4. Sure Micaiah's powers rest entirely on being the True Apostle, and why P4 doesn't dwell on the past even she didn't know owes something to Micaiah just not having much of the limelight in Part 4. Nonetheless, outside of like the first couple chapters where she is the "Silver Haired Maiden", there is little to no aura of mystery to Micaiah, and she is just a stronger, more independent individual than Ninian, or Micaiah's more direct inspirations Deidre and Julia. 

And I don't dislike Micaiah or anything, I certainly do appreciate her. Why when I finally dive into FEH, one of my priorities is going to be making a little team out of her, RD Ike, Soren, and Sothe. She just doesn't make me leap with enthusiasm. A nice smile to see her featured in something, but not a cry of utter joy.

 

Part 1? Yes, I'll agree seeing him at the end would have been a great way to reintroduce his character. And also give him a little time with his greatx30+ granddaughter, which is a kinda important bond that is not actually ever established until a second playthrough in the final fight.

Part 3 being dragged to prison? That would come off as a red herring in retrospect. Why would Sephiran fear prison? Begnion and the Laguz are at war- the plan of mass euthanasia via Medallion breakage is coming along. He has Mantle, the Senate could drop a guillotine on his neck and *tink* it bounces right off, they can't execute him. He also seems to have been able to cunningly flout his imprisonment at will, I would imagine when he told Naesala to free Sanaki he did it after being arrested. He might as well have just chosen to stay behind bars to give Zelgius a clear rendezvous point. And mind you, he had seemingly zero issues being locked up in PoR. This is Tellius's most powerful magic user, even without a tome I could see him shooting off an Ellight or something and taking out his cell guard and then breaking out.

 

Maybe I subconsciously think more on the moments where Eliwood is at his most boring, like the Fiora support, as sweet and considerate as Eliwood is and as good a match the two are, it is a boring support. With Lyn and Hector, Eliwood certainly pops to life more. 

A similar case can be made with Ike, sometimes he has the vibrant flavor of cold raw potato. But put Reyson or Ranulf in the room and he comes to life for instance. Characters have their highs and lows of personality, interactions, and characterization and all.

As for Lilina, FE7 didn't exist during FE6's development, Hector was just the important old guy who dies early on for some plot impetus. Lilina is Roy's Caeda, except having traded her lance and pegasus for a tome and boots, and crazy high Spd for crazy high Mag. Caeda, although important to Marth, ultimately did zilch in the plot of pretty much both of his games, though she did recruit a bunch of characters in Shadow Dragon, which Lilina also does.

 

Again, I was just saying at very worse, a most dramatic case, for the Corrin comparison. Sigurd didn't invent Agustrian messed up internal relations or play a role in the Loptyrian manipulation of Agustria, but he was more or less if I have it right, the pawn used to bring Agustria under Grannvalian control. Could they have used someone else like Andrei? Yes, I don't see why not. But Sigurd was the one who ultimately did do it in practice. Prior to Chapter 2, Agustria isn't caught up in any warfare at all.

And Sigurd as a great warrior who doesn't exactly love fighting, sounds different in a good way. Does his noble duty amazingly with no love for it, unlike Hector (who often escaped Ostia for the arena), Ephraim (who wanted to run off and make Eirika his body double), and Ike (who loves sparring). Even better, Sigurd is guy! "I fight well but harbor no love of war" sounds more like something a female would say, Eirika is more or less like this, and Celica her original too correct? Maybe not Lyn though (she starts out her journey seeking revenge), and certainly not Micaiah, but pacifism is certainly more a female trait in FE than it is male.

Oh I wouldn't depict Sigurd as an outright pacifist either. He does seem to get pretty pissed with Langbolt and Reptor, especially after his father dies (and he is absolutely livid with Alvis in his final moments), but it's also true that he tries to exhaust every available avenue to avoid fighting too and ultimately resolved to go up against Grannvale mainly to avoid getting Silesea into trouble for sheltering him.

[Hilda]

I am kinda shocked how much Lector trivializes GHB with his Thunder Armads and Vengeful fighter.

[Jotari]

Oh damn. I thought i still had another day for this. Really wanted to give my Grima Steady Breath. Well, at least I did managed to draw Legendary Hector in the end (and Ephraim, who I didn't have) so a pretty good banner overall. Now to waste my nonexistent orbs trying to get Distant Counters instead of saving them for the next big banner.