Nanna's dad rumors

[ATNAK]

I actually played both FE4 and FE5 first before stumbling across the whole fandom controversy on Nanna's canon dad later... and this really get me wondering - how many people actually read the Beo & Lachesis chapter 5 talk and all the times Nanna called Fin father before hearing this rumor? 

I know not many people played FE4 and FE5 so most of the opinions on this topic is purely from hearsay or that they just really love the scandal of an affair and slut shaming, so this rumor will never die even if we have official English canon support and statement disproving this theory/headcanon. 

(Kinda like how Dragon Quest V has a rumor that one love interest would become an abused barmaid and her dad will die if she's not chosen, but no such thing actually ever happen. Still that rumor is like the only thing people who barely heard of the game know about it)

Before hearing about the rumor (and honestly after), I don't see anything that suggest Lachesis have any feelings for Fin at all. Sure Beo brought Fin up, but it's always strike me more as a "well we know a guy in Lenster, so you could go there to look for Ares" than anything else. And yes I am sure Beo is actually talking about Eldigan/Eltshan instead of Fin. Like in Heroes, the one trait that Lachesis was allowed to have to defined her is having a crush on her brother. Why wouldn't this talk be about her brother??? Why shouldn't Lachesis go to Lenster when her brother's son with his major holy blood is there? 

Then in FE5, sure the game make Fin and Lachesis a couple, but even then I always thought Nanna is Beo's daughter and Fin is like her stepdad. And the debate on Beo sword is just weird. Fergus and Delmud are both Freeknights, so what if they got a special class locked sword named after a Gen 1 Freeknight? Why is a non holy weapon being used to gauge parentage anyway???

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

I actually somewhat like the idea that Lachesis had Diarmuid with Beowolf, then Nanna with Finn later on. It's not like that sort of thing doesn't happen in real life. It doesn't have anything to do with slut shaming.

[ATNAK]

I mentioned slut shaming because there's a lot of posts on this topic that said Lachesis have an affair in canon and call her names...except it isn't canon and it isn't even an in game possibility. 

Yes, the idea of Lachesis having Delmud with Beo and then having Nanna with Fin later on doesn't have anything to do with slut shaming inherently. But a lot of people who support this idea doesn't see it as "moving on after Beo died", but that surely Lachesis must have an affair/cheat on Beo/have serious case of wandering eyes. 

It doesn't have to be about slut shaming, but from the tone of the posts I have seen? Slut shaming is the general appeal. 

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

i mean the game makes it super clear that regardless of their actual status, Finn is his "very distant because he's the most broken man of Jugdral" father. In the same way that Finn/Lachesis/Eyvel is pretty much Leif's parents. Hell Eyvel was basically Greil

 

And for what it worth, the Finn x Lachesis route is actually WAY better than Finn x Eldigan in term of Lachesis character for me.

A HUGE part of why this was an issue to begin with was because Finn x Lachesis is far and away the most popular pairing

Edited July 1, 2018 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

2 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

the Finn x Lachesis route is actually WAY better than Finn x Eldigan in term of Lachesis character for me.

Damn JSND you've been reading some spicy fanfics huh.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

6 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Damn JSND you've been reading some spicy fanfics huh.

FUCK

 

In my defense Finn is objectively the most attractive man of Jugdral

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, ATNAK said:

I actually played both FE4 and FE5 first before stumbling across the whole fandom controversy on Nanna's canon dad later... and this really get me wondering - how many people actually read the Beo & Lachesis chapter 5 talk and all the times Nanna called Fin father before hearing this rumor? 

I know not many people played FE4 and FE5 so most of the opinions on this topic is purely from hearsay or that they just really love the scandal of an affair and slut shaming, so this rumor will never die even if we have official English canon support and statement disproving this theory/headcanon. 

(Kinda like how Dragon Quest V has a rumor that one love interest would become an abused barmaid and her dad will die if she's not chosen, but no such thing actually ever happen. Still that rumor is like the only thing people who barely heard of the game know about it)

Before hearing about the rumor (and honestly after), I don't see anything that suggest Lachesis have any feelings for Fin at all. Sure Beo brought Fin up, but it's always strike me more as a "well we know a guy in Lenster, so you could go there to look for Ares" than anything else. And yes I am sure Beo is actually talking about Eldigan/Eltshan instead of Fin. Like in Heroes, the one trait that Lachesis was allowed to have to defined her is having a crush on her brother. Why wouldn't this talk be about her brother??? Why shouldn't Lachesis go to Lenster when her brother's son with his major holy blood is there? 

Then in FE5, sure the game make Fin and Lachesis a couple, but even then I always thought Nanna is Beo's daughter and Fin is like her stepdad. And the debate on Beo sword is just weird. Fergus and Delmud are both Freeknights, so what if they got a special class locked sword named after a Gen 1 Freeknight? Why is a non holy weapon being used to gauge parentage anyway???

I like the "theory" because of slut praising Like, isn't an affair way more interesting than OTP 4 EVa? Especially when you're dealing with characters that, let's be honest, aren't that developed? If Lachesis had an affair, that means she's a character that actually does stuff, rather than passively following the plot because she's playable (or passively vanishing form the plot because she's not playable, which is basically what happens during the time skip).

Anyway, I believe Felgus has more suggestion to being Beo's Son than just the Beo Sword. I'm sure there's some reference to a noble woman or something. I also find the idea that Finn is not biologically not Nana's father in Thracia 776 pretty shaky, as Leif is never referred to as being Finn's son, nor Finn Leif's father, even though it is clearly said that they see each other in that way (yes, Leif has his own parents he needs to uphold a legacy to, but that's no less true for Nana who is a princess of Nodion). While Maretta they go out of their way to very clearly define is adopted. If it was in anyway meant to be read that Nana is an adopted child of Finn, then I think the game would make it explicit given the other characters in parallel situations, instead, they explicable refer to Nana and Finn as parent and child, not just in universe to each other, but by third party characters (the villains) and in the map narrations. If they wanted to not make Finn Nana's father then they simply wouldn't have made those references, which is exactly what they do with Leif.

EDIT: Fergus is specially identified as a rumored son of Beowulf in his Thracia 776 ending. So it's not just something the fans made up because the Beo Sword is a Social Knight only weapon in Thracia. The implication is pretty heavy that he's Beo's Son, and if the sword is proof for him, then it's also proof for Diarmuid. I also note the Kia Staff and Dime Thunder as two other, non holy weapons that are only usable by certain blood lines.

41 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

In my defense Finn is objectively the most attractive man of Jugdral

Are you telling me you don't get hard for Chaggal? Look at that beautiful face

Spoiler

Sex incarnate.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2018 by Jotari

[ATNAK]

Liking a theory is not the same as saying something is canon though. I have a lot of headcanons and theory I continue to enjoy even after canon totally kill all the possibility of them being true, but my love doesn't make any of them canon. 

It's not about OTP forever either since all Gen 1 pairings are doomed in canon no matter what, and whether the pairing is Beo x Lachesis or Fin x Lachesis neither ships end well. As you said these characters are honestly not that developed and most of them end up not really doing anything other than play the part the plot put them through, which mean the whole affair thing only exist because scandal appeal and does not really happened. You could enjoy the theory as much as you please, but that doesn't make the theory canon.

I just think it's really important to respect source material even if we don't like it or feel it should be fix one way or another. After all, canon is about facts, about the stuff that the fandom has experienced and like that and that's what everyone had in common. It's not like we couldn't play around with any ideas we like regardless anyway.

 

As for the whole Fin as Nanna's biological dad thing, I am not personally opposed to the idea but comparing Nanna's situation to Leif honestly weaken that argument. Because it's not about how Fin is just a knight while Leif and Nanna are both nobles. Fin wouldn't give a single damn if Nanna replace her dad with him in her heart and let the whole world know it (after all she's not his liege), but that sure as hell would never be the case with Leif. 

Fin has repeatedly shown and reiterate that his entire identity is about being a good, proper knight that serve Cuan. There's zero chance Fin would ever let Leif forget (or at least shown) he forget that he is Cuan's son first and foremost. In FE5 Fin frequently act subservience to Leif and make it extremely clear that their relationship is of a knight serving his liege. Fin most likely does treat Nanna like his daughter but Leif? NO WAY. If Leif ever call Fin "father" instead of like a father, Fin would have been filled with despair and a huge sense of failure. No we aren't supposed to even think for a fraction of a second that Fin is supposed to be seen as Leif's father instead of his servant. 

 

Edit - That just sound like the ending suggest Fergus is Beo's son not the sword directly. The staff has explicit in story statement that said it's linage locked, while FE5 have lots of personal weapons that was user locked for gameplay reasons rather than have in-story justification that said only xyz linage could use them. For example - Leif's light sword, Nanna's earth sword and Fin's hero lance. All weapons that anybody could use in FE4 but was restricted to certain characters in FE5

Edited July 1, 2018 by ATNAK

[Jotari]

12 minutes ago, ATNAK said:

Liking a theory is not the same as saying something is canon though. I have a lot of headcanons and theory I continue to enjoy even after canon totally kill all the possibility of them being true, but my love doesn't make any of them canon. 

It's not about OTP forever either since all Gen 1 pairings are doomed in canon no matter what, and whether the pairing is Beo x Lachesis or Fin x Lachesis neither ships end well. As you said these characters are honestly not that developed and most of them end up not really doing anything other than play the part the plot put them through, which mean the whole affair thing only exist because scandal appeal and does not really happened. You could enjoy the theory as much as you please, but that doesn't make the theory canon.

I just think it's really important to respect source material even if we don't like it or feel it should be fix one way or another. After all, canon is about facts, about the stuff that the fandom has experienced and like that and that's what everyone had in common. It's not like we couldn't play around with any ideas we like regardless anyway.

 

As for the whole Fin as Nanna's biological dad thing, I am not personally opposed to the idea but comparing Nanna's situation to Leif honestly weaken that argument. Because it's not about how Fin is just a knight while Leif and Nanna are both nobles. Fin wouldn't give a single damn if Nanna replace her dad with him in her heart and let the whole world know it (after all she's not his liege), but that sure as hell would never be the case with Leif. 

Fin has repeatedly shown and reiterate that his entire identity is about being a good, proper knight that serve Cuan. There's zero chance Fin would ever let Leif forget (or at least shown) he forget that he is Cuan's son first and foremost. In FE5 Fin frequently act subservience to Leif and make it extremely clear that their relationship is of a knight serving his liege. Fin most likely does treat Nanna like his daughter but Leif? NO WAY. If Leif ever call Fin "father" instead of like a father, Fin would have been filled with despair and a huge sense of failure. No we aren't supposed to even think for a fraction of a second that Fin is supposed to be seen as Leif's father instead of his servant. 

I'm not saying the theory is canon because I like it, I'm saying the theory is canon because of the evidence I've presented. What you say about Finn is true, but saying he wouldn't care a damn about Nana calling him father is conjecture. Finn is obviously a knight of Leinster, but he shows no disrespect for the nobility of other countries. Furthermore, you mistake what I was really saying. If you play Thracia 776 the opening chapters repeatedly call Nana Finn's daughter. If you play this game there is absolutely no indication that the people saying it (including the narrator) aren't being literal. The game leads the player to believe Finn is Nana's biological father. There wouldn't be any shadow of a doubt that that is true if the Beo Sword didn't exist. If the writers of Thracia wanted the player to believe Nana was Finn's adoptive child, then they would have made that explicit, otherwise they wouldn't have had her and Finn referred to as a parent and child.

Consider also, that regardless as to who Nana's biological father is, her backstory is still the same, she was raised by Finn. However, in Genealogy of the Holy War, she has a conversation with Finn if he is her father in which she identifies him as such. Now, logically, if Nana in her backstory believes and sees Finn as her father, this conversation should have occurred regardless. She should still address Finn as father in Genealogy of the Holy War regardless as to who her parents are (Finn has conversations with several of his potential children, but as far as I can remember, Nana is the only one who actually address him as father and is aware of the relationship). Or to simply put it another way, Nana calling Fin father was something that was not present in Genealogy of the Holy War (unless they actually are releated) and was added to the canon when Thracia was made, a game which canonized at least one pair incontrovertibly (Fury and Levin).

[ATNAK]

My whole spiel about just because you like a theory doesn't make it true is honestly more about Lachesis than Nanna's parentage. Like my reply to SatsumaFSoysoy, I don't consider the idea of Delmud and Nanna having different fathers automatically slut shaming.

 

With Fin it's not about disrespect, there's a difference between a noble and the lord he is serving considering him a father because in the latter case Fin would find himself in a position where he might "usurp" Cuan's rightful place. 

I must reiterate again that I have no problem with the idea of Fin being Nanna's biological father in FE5, but your argument for it have some holes. An absence of evidence is not an evidence of absence. Considering that the game writers definitely doesn't want to upset the fans by ruling out a popular fan preferred pairing like Fin x Lachesis, of course they wouldn't make it clear that Nanna is Fin's adoptive daughter. The best way to handle this is to let the player decided the pairing for themselves, and maybe even add some support for the popular vote while they are at it to please the fans. 

And here's the biggest kicker, FE4 was released before FE5! And in FE4 the Fin as father convo only happen to reward his daughter with extra stats! He literally couldn't have a convo with Nanna if she isn't his daughter so no I don't see why she should have a convo to give her extra stats if she isn't already his daughter. Considering how Fin couldn't have a talk with his own son, I don't see why the writers would deem Fin and Nanna relationship important enough to write for when he isn't her dad. 

Plus no, FE5 doesn't make Fury and Levin canon, FE4 already made that pairing canon! If we are going down that route, you basically undermine your own argument for Fin as Nanna's dad here since the family tree chart doesn't support that. Honestly, it's because Levin and Fury are already so canon to begin with that they had no problem straight up admitting that Sety is a prince in FE5 instead of leaving any wiggle room. 

Edited July 1, 2018 by ATNAK

[Jotari]

39 minutes ago, ATNAK said:

My whole spiel about just because you like a theory doesn't make it true is honestly more about Lachesis than Nanna's parentage. Like my reply to SatsumaFSoysoy, I don't consider the idea of Delmud and Nanna having different fathers automatically slut shaming.

 

With Fin it's not about disrespect, there's a difference between a noble and the lord he is serving considering him a father because in the latter case Fin would find himself in a position where he might "usurp" Cuan's rightful place. 

I must reiterate again that I have no problem with the idea of Fin being Nanna's biological father in FE5, but your argument for it have some holes. An absence of evidence is not an evidence of absence. Considering that the game writers definitely doesn't want to upset the fans by ruling out a popular fan preferred pairing like Fin x Lachesis, of course they wouldn't make it clear that Nanna is Fin's adoptive daughter. The best way to handle this is to let the player decided the pairing for themselves, and maybe even add some support for the popular vote while they are at it to please the fans. 

And here's the biggest kicker, FE4 was released before FE5! And in FE4 the Fin as father convo only happen to reward his daughter with extra stats! He literally couldn't have a convo with Nanna if she isn't his daughter so no I don't see why she should have a convo to give her extra stats if she isn't already his daughter. Considering how Fin couldn't have a talk with his own son, I don't see why the writers would deem Fin and Nanna relationship important enough to write for when he isn't her dad. 

Plus no, FE5 doesn't make Fury and Levin canon, FE4 and the family tree chart already made that pairing canon! If we are going down that route, you basically undermine your own argument for Fin as Nanna's dad here since the official family tree chart doesn't support that. 

I know FE5 was made after FE4, that's exactly my point, Nana referring to Finn as father was something they added to FE5. Why did they add it? Two possible reasons. 1, to develop the two characters (which they don't really do as the two don't interact too much. 2, because they were canonizing a pairing. The fact that an external source canonized a pairing first is irrelevant, Thracia reaffirms if not outright invents the idea that Sety is Levin's heir. The point is, something that was deterministic in one game is definitive in another. If this can be true for one pairing, it can be true for two. The official family tree not listing Nana's parentage simply means it was decided afterwards (if it was decided at all, which I will get into).

The only way to look at this is to look at the evidence. Thracia 776 provides several key piece of evidence regarding Nana and Diarmuid's parentage. These things are facts.

*Nana refers to Finn as father. Reydrick, a random soldier and the narration also refer to her as Finn's son.

*Delmud and Felgus (rumored in game to be Beowolf's son) can wield the Beo Sword.

*Nana cannot wield the Beo Sword.

These facts are incontrovertible, what they mean, however, isn't. From these facts we can draw a number of conclusions.

A)Nana and Diarmuid are both Beowolf's children and Nana refers to Finn as father out of affection. The Beo Sword is also sexist.

B)Nana and Diarmuid are both Finn's children and Diarmuid being able to use the Beo Sword is actually an unintended oversight by the developers (the game has a lot of prf weapons, I wouldn't be surprised if they reused pointers, like, say Asvel could use Pugi if he had an axe rank, that's something someone might be able to check. Or maybe Nana is meant to be able to wield the Beo Sword but the Earth Sword pointer interfers with her multiple prfs).

C)Nana is Finn's son and Diarmuid is Beowolf's son. Given the evidence, that is just as reasonable conclusion as A or B.

D) Nana is being affectioned and the Beo Sword is an oversight, Lachesis' parings are entirely ambiguous.

All of these are rationale conclusions to the evidence, each person can make their mind up about what they think is the most sensible. But the point is, these facts exist, the fans didn't pull the implication of an affair out of their ass, the game, whether intentionally or not, is suggestive about the idea (Beowolf's incredibly vague comment in Genealogy doesn't help either). Sure, it might be a theory, but it's just as much a theory to say it's not true, because the game has some ambiguity in it by simultaneously implying completely different things, whether it be intentional or otherwise.

And not that it matters really, but the separate fathers pairing is entirely possible without an affair or any need to slut shame either, as Nana was born in the year following the Battle of Barhara, which could easily mean she was conceived after Beowolf was dead (in fact, Finn has a hard time being Nana's biological father without Beowolf being killed first as he isn't around in Chapter 5. Beowolf's comment is the only thing that indicates there might have been an attraction between the two of them before, true he might be referring to Eldigan either, but Eldigan is also like two years dead by that point, of course Finn hasn't been around recently by then either, but at least he's still alive. Anyway, it vague and also completely moot as the hard evidence comes from Thracia 776).

Edited July 1, 2018 by Jotari

[Interdimensional Observer]

33 minutes ago, ATNAK said:

Plus no, FE5 doesn't make Fury and Levin canon, FE4 already made that pairing canon! If we are going down that route, you basically undermine your own argument for Fin as Nanna's dad here since the family tree chart doesn't support that. Honestly, it's because Levin and Fury are already so canon to begin with that they had no problem straight up admitting that Sety is a prince in FE5 instead of leaving any wiggle room. 

Not it didn't. Heavily suggested the pairing yes, but it did not hard canonize it. The same way FE7 would heavily suggest EliwoodxNinian, but left open the possibilities to nobody special, Lyn, and Fiora. Kaga at the time was against the establishment of single-canonical pairings anyhow, and his "dream scenario" would have included at least three different canons, and there was even an idea to limit each mother to producing one of her two children at once point.

With Thracia, since he included Ced, Nanna, and Diarmuid in significant-enough roles, he did have to hard-canon their fathers. But prior to that:

Finally, there is a final word from Kaga who mentions that every player has their own story; the discussions here are just a few of these stories, they aren’t supposed to be the true answers or settings.

[Jotari]

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Not it didn't. Heavily suggested the pairing yes, but it did not hard canonize it. The same way FE7 would heavily suggest EliwoodxNinian, but left open the possibilities to nobody special, Lyn, and Fiora. Kaga at the time was against the establishment of single-canonical pairings anyhow, and his "dream scenario" would have included at least three different canons, and there was even an idea to limit each mother to producing one of her two children at once point.

With Thracia, since he included Ced, Nanna, and Diarmuid in significant-enough roles, he did have to hard-canon their fathers. But prior to that:

Finally, there is a final word from Kaga who mentions that every player has their own story; the discussions here are just a few of these stories, they aren’t supposed to be the true answers or settings.

I think they could have gotten away with not pairing any of the characters. For 1, as I've talked about before, Sety's appearance in the game is actually a bit forced (though they hide it well). Geographically speaking and canonically speaking in regards to Genealogy, Connact would have been a lot more sensible a place to have the finale take place. Not only is it where Bloom resided, but it's Raydrick's homeland and physically closer to Fianna. Diarmuid is also pretty inconsequential to the game, in fact I've seen people forget he's even in it. The only character that it might be awkward to leave fatherless is Nana, but it wouldn't be that hard given the game lacks supports or base conversations (Nana can die in Mother and Child and basically never be mentioned again). All they'd have to do is replace "Finn's daughter," with "Lachesis' daughter" a few times and have Nana not refer to Finn as father. It might have confirmed Finn isn't her father if they went down that road, but they could have kept it pretty ambiguous nonetheless thanks to Snes minimalism.

[ATNAK]

But considering how FE5 really doesn't give a damn about being canon compliant with FE4 wouldn't that render anything you would consider as evidence from FE5 moot? 

Combined with Kaga's words that just mean everything from FE5 isn't canon and are all just a dream possibility. 

Then there's how Beo sword isn't explicitly a linage item either, so saying that any circumstantial evidences that could be glean from it is canon is definitely not true. It mean the theory doesn't pop out of thin air yeah, but that's still isn't the same as canon. 

[Jotari]

17 hours ago, ATNAK said:

But considering how FE5 really doesn't give a damn about being canon compliant with FE4 wouldn't that render anything you would consider as evidence from FE5 moot? 

Combined with Kaga's words that just mean everything from FE5 isn't canon and are all just a dream possibility. 

Then there's how Beo sword isn't explicitly a linage item either, so saying that any circumstantial evidences that could be glean from it is canon is definitely not true. It mean the theory doesn't pop out of thin air yeah, but that's still isn't the same as canon. 

Well yeah, it's obvious not canon to Holy War, as you make any pairings you want in that game. But Thracia still exists in its own right.