What's with all the hate for Matthis?

[Mega Koopa]

This is a question I've always had, and I just don't get it. Why does everyone hate Matthis in particular so much? He's just a subpar unit, other subpar units like Macellan, Dolph, and the entirety of the Wolfguard are also bad units and are much more difficult to recruit/keep alive in their join maps, yet they aren't hated nearly as much. 
Even in the games where he's not that bad in, people still shit on him. In FE1 he's an earlygame mount that can use Silver Lances at base. In FE3 it's the same deal, hell I would go as far and say that he's better than Cecil, Roderick, Luke, and Ryan. In FE11 he's not great, and is one of the games I would say he's legit bad in because he can no longer use silvers at base and reclassing removes his niche as a mount, but even then he starts with a D rank in lances, which is one rank away from using the most broken weapon in the game, and can already use javelins at base, which is better than what Cain can do. Though, there's not much reason to use him over Abel, Vyland, Frey, or Roshea. In FE12, like FE11 he can no longer use silvers and reclassing removes his niche. In FE12 he's just Roderick with better base stats and has growths that are more defensively oriented. Discounting growths, I'd say that Matthis is one of more mid-tier units in the game. A bad unit that joins early is better than a bad unit that joins later. Recruiting him isn't even hard because you have to go around the mountain anyway to get Bord and Julian.
For his personality, he doesn't have too much of a character just like 90% of the cast. Though, the few lines he does get give him a bit of a personality which is more than I can say about Cain, Abel, Macellan , or Dolph. From what I can put together from his recruitment and his dialogue with Marth in SD, he's a pretty calm and cowardly person. He initially fights for Michalis because Lena refused to marry Michalis and naturally Michalis forces her brother to fight for his army while threatening his life because of his dislike for him. After finding out that Lena was safe and part of Marth's army, he joins Marth's army as well.
His recruitment convo with Julian in FE12 is a little bit more interesting. You can see how reluctant Matthis is to have Julian be the lover of his sister and see how he doesn't trust him. From his recruitment you can tell that he is mostly the overprotective older brother type, which is understandable, considering the past Julian has as a thief and even being so competent as a thief that he's the commander of Rickard. As an older brother of a younger sister myself, I would want my sister to be safe and not to date just anyone, so I can understand Matthis's worries. Near the end of their convo Julian manipulates(?) Matthis and by telling him that Lena and he wouldn't work out and it works and calms Matthis down and they become somewhat of friends. 
I find Matthis's supports with Kris kind of amusing, in his C support he's mostly worried about his sister and afraid of all the things that the dark priests can be doing to her. In his B support with Kris, he decides that he doesn't want to wallow in worry for his sister and wants to rescue her himself, so he asks Kris to help him train. When I initially read this it was pretty nice to see Matthis go through some development and how he wanted to be stronger. In his A support, it reveals that he just gives up his training and entrusts his sister to Kris (because Kris is a Mary Sue). At first, I was pretty disappointed that Matthis just gives up, but then I found it kinda funny. It's in character for Matthis, he cares deeply about his sister and wants the best for her, but he is too cowardly to be able to protect her. It would be boring if he was just a typical "weak person but wants to get stronger" type of character since Julian and many other characters have that same motive, this way he's mostly still a comic relief type of character, though he's still a static character which isn't necessarily a bad thing. He's not really a major character, he's mostly a side character so being a static character makes sense and works in Matthis's case. Something I wish though is that his supports were with Julian and not Kris, as it would work better and further develop the relationship being Matthis and Julian.
Something I like about Matthis is that he's not really a brave courageous knight, nor is he a weak person who wants to be strong. He's just a regular ass dude who doesn't like fighting and adores the peaceful and tranquil life. His cowardice and seemingly denseness are flaws on his part, but they also make him seem more human. When a character doesn't have any flaws they become a Mary Sue. I love characters with flaws, and Matthis, in general, is just one huge flaw, which is something I like. I can see why people would dislike a character like Matthis (seeing how Makalov is similar to him and also gets a lot of hate), but I don't understand why he seems to have so much hate aimed towards him than any Archanea character, I just don't get it.  

[MCProductions]

This map is why. 

[NobodiePichu]

I dont think people hate him, they just dont particularly care for him is all, and its not hard to see why because as a unit hes not particularly exciting and as a character hes generally just kinda ehhh at best and annoying at worst.

 

also he tends to suicide on ya when trying to recruit the bastard, no matthis maybe i wont save you this time!!!

[KnightOfNohr]

Ever read Ruben.io’s FE12 LP? Matthis turned out incredible in it. Just goes to show, even a bad unit can be good with positive circumstances.

[Mega Koopa]

14 minutes ago, MCProductions said:

This map is why. 

I mean, if that was the case why do people not hate Julian or Bord in FE12 as well?

[MCProductions]

1 minute ago, Mega Koopa said:

I mean, if that was the case why do people not hate Julian or Bord in FE12 as well?

Because they aren't the reason the map is so annoying as sin to play, Matthis, namely his recruit requirement, is.

[Mega Koopa]

1 minute ago, MCProductions said:

Because they aren't the reason the map is so annoying as sin to play, Matthis, namely his recruit requirement, is.

In FE3, you can go across the middle area just fine. Matthis will only attack you with his Javelin, as long as you can't fight back. You just go to the village to get Julian, and then have Julian talk to Matthis. In FE12, you'd have to go around the mountain anyway to recruit both Bord and Julian, it takes just as much time to go around the village then it does to get Bord, go through the middle, get Julian, and seize. 

[Mega Koopa]

21 minutes ago, NobodiePichu said:

I dont think people hate him, they just dont particularly care for him is all, and its not hard to see why because as a unit hes not particularly exciting and as a character hes generally just kinda ehhh at best and annoying at worst.

 

also he tends to suicide on ya when trying to recruit the bastard, no matthis maybe i wont save you this time!!!

That's a fair enough point. 

[Ertrick36]

It's less that people hate him and more that it's a meme to throw shade at him.  He's an easy target on account of his difficult recruitment (not as difficult as Mizz "Ring Around the Astra Rosy" Ayra, but difficult enough) and the mediocre returns you get out of him for the trouble you put forth in recruiting him.  Most would rather rely on either Cain, Abel, Cecil, Rody, Hardin, or Sirius that Matthis.

That being said, in Book 2, he's at least more reliable than Midia, who is literally only there to be saved with a Rescue-wielding Cleric/Sage/Bishop.  And he probably performs better than Book 2!Roshe and maybe Vyland.  But overall, unless you're doing a PMU/challenge run, there's at least half a dozen better cavaliers, and potentially more if you're playing the DS remakes and are considering reclassing units.

[Mega Koopa]

1 hour ago, Ertrick36 said:

It's less that people hate him and more that it's a meme to throw shade at him.  He's an easy target on account of his difficult recruitment (not as difficult as Mizz "Ring Around the Astra Rosy" Ayra, but difficult enough) and the mediocre returns you get out of him for the trouble you put forth in recruiting him.  Most would rather rely on either Cain, Abel, Cecil, Rody, Hardin, or Sirius that Matthis.

That being said, in Book 2, he's at least more reliable than Midia, who is literally only there to be saved with a Rescue-wielding Cleric/Sage/Bishop.  And he probably performs better than Book 2!Roshe and maybe Vyland.  But overall, unless you're doing a PMU/challenge run, there's at least half a dozen better cavaliers, and potentially more if you're playing the DS remakes and are considering reclassing units.

Like I said in the op, in terms of base stats alone, Matthis is better than most of the 7th platoon, the only cavs better than him that join at a reasonable time are Sirius, Arran, and Cain. Growths don't matter much because enemies don't grow too much and even then you can influence growths. I'm not going to argue about Matthis's usability in the other games because I can admit that he's not great in them. In FE1 and 3 Book 1, the only cav he's better than is Vyland and maybe Cain and Abel if you ignore growth rates. In 11 the only early game cav he's better than is Cain.

Though, I can see what you mean. I guess a character like him is easy to pick on. I guess I never found the idea of throwing shade at characters that funny. I can admit it is somewhat tedious to recruit Matthis. (Though, I don't think recruiting Ayra is hard, but I digress).

[Acacia Sgt]

Hate? Can't say I've seen much hate on Matthis. I've seen more like the ridicule he gets for being the first "I can kill the character I want to meet" enemy the franchise had (since he can and will kill Lena during the first adventure, despite wanting to see her again). Admitedly, I know less of the opinion to his recruitment in Book2/NewMystery than his DDSoL/Book1/SD one. Actually, I do think it's quite bizarre. I can't talk about the original, but SD has stuff like Darros recruiting himself if Marth is in his range, so having Matthis still kill Lena seems like... wait, he can still kill her in SD, no? I don't remember that one....

Edited July 13, 2018 by Acacia Sgt

[bethany81707]

3 hours ago, Mega Koopa said:

In FE3, you can go across the middle area just fine. Matthis will only attack you with his Javelin, as long as you can't fight back. You just go to the village to get Julian, and then have Julian talk to Matthis. In FE12, you'd have to go around the mountain anyway to recruit both Bord and Julian, it takes just as much time to go around the village then it does to get Bord, go through the middle, get Julian, and seize. 

Hahahaha, no. He's perfectly willing to attack Palla with his Steel Lance and get himself turned into a number on Palla's killcount as long as Palla is anywhere except a square Matthis can only reach with his Javelin.

And personality-wise, he reminds me far too much of Makalov.

[Jedi]

https://clips.twitch.tv/HeadstrongDrabWolfTBTacoLeft

Occasional Legend.

[Mega Koopa]

9 minutes ago, Jedi said:

https://clips.twitch.tv/HeadstrongDrabWolfTBTacoLeft

Occasional Legend.

That is the best video I've ever seen

 

1 hour ago, bethany81707 said:

Hahahaha, no. He's perfectly willing to attack Palla with his Steel Lance and get himself turned into a number on Palla's killcount as long as Palla is anywhere except a square Matthis can only reach with his Javelin.

And personality-wise, he reminds me far too much of Makalov.

That's weird, I remember the FE3 ltc going across the bridge just fine and all Matthis did was chuck javelins at Marth. Also, why are you baiting Matthis with Palla? lol 

Also, Matthis came first, so it wouldn't surprise me if Makalov was inspired by Matthis.

[bethany81707]

10 minutes ago, Mega Koopa said:

That is the best video I've ever seen

 

That's weird, I remember the FE3 ltc going across the bridge just fine and all Matthis did was chuck javelins at Marth. Also, why are you baiting Matthis with Palla? lol 

Also, Matthis came first, so it wouldn't surprise me if Makalov was inspired by Matthis.

Well, I played FE12. (Using Palla was because she was already on that side, and he's less of an issue if he's going that way.) I suppose that's an influence?

Also played, and saw, FE9/10 long before any other Fire Emblem game, so I always use that as a measuring stick.

[Mega Koopa]

16 minutes ago, bethany81707 said:

Well, I played FE12. (Using Palla was because she was already on that side, and he's less of an issue if he's going that way.) I suppose that's an influence?

Also played, and saw, FE9/10 long before any other Fire Emblem game, so I always use that as a measuring stick.

Oh, in FE12 enemy always prioritize doing damage over their own survival, so that makes sense. Enemy AI in FE3 and in most other games are a lot different, where they prioritize their own safety. In FE3 he'll just throw javelins at you unless you're a bow user, magic user, or also have a javelin. In FE12 javelins have like 3 might, so he'll attack you with whatever other weapon he has that does the most damage. 

[Truebladee]

I didn't hate him. I just didn't care about him. We have already good cavaliers so why bother with him

[Jingle Jangle]

I dislike him due to how tricky it can be to recruit him in Shadow Dragon. Most of the time I have Lena take a hit for the team. Plus Matthis personality doesn't charm people. 

[Tuvy2]

Matthis is rad, has one of the better designs, and is one of the best characters in the game. (Character wise, not stat wise) I like a lot of the shadow dragon designs, and when compared to others in the series he just stands out to me.

[PersonWithTime]

Unpopular opinion, but in FE12 he gives me creepy vibes. Like the way he talks about his sister in that game always creeped me out. Like he wants to be more than her brother. I was just like, "Dude you are weird. Get some help." He made me uncomfortable. But I know I'm probably the only one seeing that subtext.

[Dayni]

Maybe I was a bit less creeped out than you, but the way he talks to Julian about Lena wasn't exactly the most healthy.

Also, even with his weird possessiveness aside, he's just a bad unit.

[Interdimensional Observer]

Ya know, I kinda wonder if Lena and Matthis inspired Marcia and Makalov.

Sister and brother. Sister is an upstanding person, the brother is pathetic in Matthis's case, and downright bad in Makalov's. Both brothers ride horses. And while Lena and Matthis were originally redheads, SD/NM recolored their hair to pink.

It's odd, because Tellius gets more of inspiration from the Jugdral games than its other predecessors. And Lena and Matthis are Archanean.

[eclipse]

14 hours ago, PersonWithTime said:

Unpopular opinion, but in FE12 he gives me creepy vibes. Like the way he talks about his sister in that game always creeped me out. Like he wants to be more than her brother. I was just like, "Dude you are weird. Get some help." He made me uncomfortable. But I know I'm probably the only one seeing that subtext.

I think Matthis is closer to a dumb trope than anything (overprotective older sibling).  Which is. . .about right IMO.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Ya know, I kinda wonder if Lena and Matthis inspired Marcia and Makalov.

Sister and brother. Sister is an upstanding person, the brother is pathetic in Matthis's case, and downright bad in Makalov's. Both brothers ride horses. And while Lena and Matthis were originally redheads, SD/NM recolored their hair to pink.

It's odd, because Tellius gets more of inspiration from the Jugdral games than its other predecessors. And Lena and Matthis are Archanean.

Not really?  Matthis is the wrong combination of overprotective and pathetic.  Makalov doesn't seem to care about how his actions affect his sister.

[KnightOfNohr]

I agree. Matthis is a bit dull. Makalov is an idiotic jerk who I intend to have Marcia kill once I reach his chapter in Path of Radiance. If he was just thoughtless, and he used the opportunity Ike gave him to turn his life around, he could be likable, but no...

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

Not really?  Matthis is the wrong combination of overprotective and pathetic.  Makalov doesn't seem to care about how his actions affect his sister.

That's fair. It could just be me reading too much into things and or coincidence.

And, the hair color change likely has more to do with visually differentiating  from , and  from .