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Jotari

How Can Roy Be Made Better?

How Should We Buff Roy?  

114 members have voted

  1. 1. How Should We Buff Roy?

    • Increase his growths by like 30%
    • Hey now, let's not be crazy, increase some growths by 10-15%
    • Growths suck. Give him +3 to all bases
    • EARLIER PROMOTION
    • Add a skill system and give him Charm
    • Give him a horse...Heroes did it
    • Replace him with Hector
    • Make him a RES tank (because he needs some niche, but he wouldn't be Roy if he didn't die to stray lances)
    • Make the Binding Blade even more OP
    • Give him even more support options (because there's still a lot of unfulfilled women in that game he can't marry)
    • Make him a dancer
    • 6 move as a lord


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How can Roy be improved as a unit while still fundamentally being the same unit? Any suggestions the thread comes up with will be added to the poll. Some of the options up there currently are jokes, but I genuinely think making him a RES tank could be interesting. He's still be pretty useless (given swords can't effectively counter attack), but he'd at least have some kind of function.

Edited by Jotari

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3 minutes ago, Michelaar said:

Just giving him earlier promotion would make him so much better.

It's certainly mean he'd see a lot more use, but I think even with a Radiant Dawn style free promotion, he'd still be considered the worse Lord in the series (at least, pre Binding Blade acquisition).

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I don't think Roy is even that "bad", per se. I think his biggest problem is that he's a lord and that one is usually too busy trying to get him to accomplish secondary goals in a chapter and seize the throne to worry about his combat and utility. The maps are so huge and Roy only has 5 movement so if you want to finish anything in a reasonable timeframe you've got to rescuedrop him everywhere. He isn't free to become a decent combat unit even if he had the growths and/or stats for it.

He could probably do with some extra functions that aren't combat-oriented, like be able to open chests without a Chest Key or Lockpick (I can't remember if Chest Keys are in this game) or have an ability to buff other units like Azura's dance can. The maps of FE6 are also poorly designed around Roy so really, you'd want to look at redesigning most of the game.

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Earlier promotion is what he really needs imo. It'll at least make him survive more easily and get more level ups during late game chapters.

Also, I remember some hack trying to make Roy better by giving him increased growths and slower experience gain (to balance it). That could also work, I guess?

If a Skill system is to be added, giving him Charm would be a pretty good idea. This way, giving boosts to units near him make him more useful.

 

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One solution would actually to just give him the Marth treatment. Kill his promotion and just let him get more levels. Just make the Binding Blade give him some stat ups upon acquisition or just have more buffs, Because it needs more right? It's not like he gets any new animations when he promotes, the weapon does it all. So he basically doesn't promote as is.

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6 minutes ago, DemolisherBPB said:

One solution would actually to just give him the Marth treatment. Kill his promotion and just let him get more levels. Just make the Binding Blade give him some stat ups upon acquisition or just have more buffs, Because it needs more right? It's not like he gets any new animations when he promotes, the weapon does it all. So he basically doesn't promote as is.

Because extra levels will help much when his growths already scream "please RNG screw me!" as is, right? Oh wait...

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2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because extra levels will help much when his growths already scream "please RNG screw me!" as is, right? Oh wait...

I never said it was a good Idea.

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Just now, DemolisherBPB said:

I never said it was a good Idea.

Then why do you think it's a "solution"???

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1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Then why do you think it's a "solution"???

I feel we're skirting around the "Extra Binding Blade boosts" It's more that I had a decent growth on Roy so just more of that'd work. He'd at the very least be one very healthy boy. It'd work best with the + Growth rates sure. 

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21 minutes ago, DemolisherBPB said:

One solution would actually to just give him the Marth treatment. Kill his promotion and just let him get more levels. Just make the Binding Blade give him some stat ups upon acquisition or just have more buffs, Because it needs more right? It's not like he gets any new animations when he promotes, the weapon does it all. So he basically doesn't promote as is.

Moving Roy's promotion gains to the Binding Blade would mean it gives it's user +4HP, +2 str (on 18 might), +3 skl, +2 spd,  +7 def and a whopping +10 res. Oh and of course +1 mov and 2 con. That's approaching Holy War levels of ridiculousness.

Edited by Jotari

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Give Roy a Horse. With 7 Mov and Rescue/Canto, he will be more than just "let's carry this level 6 boy to the throne because he's our leader and dies easily to anything". Making the Rapier better would also give him some more niche, effective damage vs. cavs and armor is cool but with some more Might, Roy could use it for useful things like dispatching the cavs in Chapters 4/7

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Theres this myth about Roy that apparently his stats is fine

 

And then you learned fire emblem for real, get a look back at it and realize the way the developer thinks his stats is fine is fucked up

 

So yeah buff his base stats. He really should be slightly stronger than Lance and Allen with 7 MT Rapier, instead of being a laughable joke compared to Lance and Allen with 5 MT Rapier.

Its notable that some of the best Lord in the series are a notch stronger than everyone around him so i don't think its all that bad of an idea

 

Mind i don't think Roy being better than his crew disparity have to be as ridiculous as Chrom in Lunatic(AKA Vaike is 2 stats away from being complete deadweight but the rest of the cast is a deadweight), Sigurd(basically his own Jeigan),  or Leif

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How delightful that somebody is ignoring how Roy's growths are average to good across the board for FE6. If he is getting screwed, which doesn't really exist in actual arguments since averages are assumed (your results in practice will vary, every argument must caution), then FE6 must be very screwed up. Let us go growth by growth here:

  • HP: 80- The same as reputable characters like Rutger and Lance. Higher than Melady's 75. Not like the difference between an 80 and 90 HP growth is that big compared to such a difference in other stats.
  • Str: 40- Better than Rutger, the same as Lance, Lugh, and Dieck, only 5% worse than Allen. Admittedly there are a bunch of units with significantly more growth here though.
  • Skl: 50- Only Zeiss, Melady, Wolt, Shanna, Rutger, Sue, Fir, Shin, and Raigh tie or outdo him. That isn't a lot of people from an entire roster. (Chad, Merlinus, and Fae don't count.)
  • Spd: 40- This is actually one of Roy's weaker growths, the cast of FE6 lean on offense growths-wise and most characters who are good outdo him here.
  • Lck: 60- Ties with Shanna, Chad, loses 5% to Clarine, and more to Larum, Elffin, and Fae, but that is it. Roy is one of the best here.
  • Def: 25- Looks really bad, but GBA Emblem loves low Def growths, Bors, Wade, Lott, Zelot, Treck, Noah, Gwendolyn, Barth, Fae, Douglas, are the only characters with a 30 or more growth.
  • Res: 30- This is the highest for any non-Karel and Fae (the exceptions of exceptions) physical unit. Nobody even ties Roy, only magical units have him beat here.

 

I don't mean to argue, I just like doing some simple number crunching, and found something to do it on.

It does make the point however that growths aren't Roy's issue, bases, promotion timing, and other stuff is.

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Three things are important for being reliable in FE6's hard mode:

- you are mounted

- you have (hard mode) bases

- you use magic or staves

 

Roy does have none of them. His only pro is using the best physical weapon type.

He needs definitely better bases, at least in that way that he can take two iron axe hits in the prologue. 1-2 more strength and speed are essential too. And of course he must promote earlier. A promotion item would easily fix that. 

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20 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

How delightful that somebody is ignoring how Roy's growths are average to good across the board for FE6. If he is getting screwed, which doesn't really exist in actual arguments since averages are assumed (your results in practice will vary, every argument must caution), then FE6 must be very screwed up. Let us go growth by growth here:

  • HP: 80- The same as reputable characters like Rutger and Lance. Higher than Melady's 75. Not like the difference between an 80 and 90 HP growth is that big compared to such a difference in other stats.
  • Str: 40- Better than Rutger, the same as Lance, Lugh, and Dieck, only 5% worse than Allen. Admittedly there are a bunch of units with significantly more growth here though.
  • Skl: 50- Only Zeiss, Melady, Wolt, Shanna, Rutger, Sue, Fir, Shin, and Raigh tie or outdo him. That isn't a lot of people from an entire roster. (Chad, Merlinus, and Fae don't count.)
  • Spd: 40- This is actually one of Roy's weaker growths, the cast of FE6 lean on offense growths-wise and most characters who are good outdo him here.
  • Lck: 60- Ties with Shanna, Chad, loses 5% to Clarine, and more to Larum, Elffin, and Fae, but that is it. Roy is one of the best here.
  • Def: 25- Looks really bad, but GBA Emblem loves low Def growths, Bors, Wade, Lott, Zelot, Treck, Noah, Gwendolyn, Barth, Fae, Douglas, are the only characters with a 30 or more growth.
  • Res: 30- This is the highest for any non-Karel and Fae (the exceptions of exceptions) physical unit. Nobody even ties Roy, only magical units have him beat here.

 

I don't mean to argue, I just like doing some simple number crunching, and found something to do it on.

It does make the point however that growths aren't Roy's issue, bases, promotion timing, and other stuff is.

Yeah notably the character with best spread of mix between actual usability vs Growth is 75/50/50/45/25/20.

 

Notably one can argue that Rutger would be pretty much identical if he swap growths with Roy which kinda says everything

Honestly seeing what is wrong with Roy is as easy as noticing that he is Lance/Allen with 4-5 less durability

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

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17 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

How delightful that somebody is ignoring how Roy's growths are average to good across the board for FE6. If he is getting screwed, which doesn't really exist in actual arguments since averages are assumed (your results in practice will vary, every argument must caution), then FE6 must be very screwed up. Let us go growth by growth here:

  • HP: 80- The same as reputable characters like Rutger and Lance. Higher than Melady's 75. Not like the difference between an 80 and 90 HP growth is that big compared to such a difference in other stats.
  • Str: 40- Better than Rutger, the same as Lance, Lugh, and Dieck, only 5% worse than Allen. Admittedly there are a bunch of units with significantly more growth here though.
  • Skl: 50- Only Zeiss, Melady, Wolt, Shanna, Rutger, Sue, Fir, Shin, and Raigh tie or outdo him. That isn't a lot of people from an entire roster. (Chad, Merlinus, and Fae don't count.)
  • Spd: 40- This is actually one of Roy's weaker growths, the cast of FE6 lean on offense growths-wise and most characters who are good outdo him here.
  • Lck: 60- Ties with Shanna, Chad, loses 5% to Clarine, and more to Larum, Elffin, and Fae, but that is it. Roy is one of the best here.
  • Def: 25- Looks really bad, but GBA Emblem loves low Def growths, Bors, Wade, Lott, Zelot, Treck, Noah, Gwendolyn, Barth, Fae, Douglas, are the only characters with a 30 or more growth.
  • Res: 30- This is the highest for any non-Karel and Fae (the exceptions of exceptions) physical unit. Nobody even ties Roy, only magical units have him beat here.

 

I don't mean to argue, I just like doing some simple number crunching, and found something to do it on.

It does make the point however that growths aren't Roy's issue, bases, promotion timing, and other stuff is.

Not only are his bases pretty bad, but they don't synergies well with his growths. His worst growth is probably his speed, yet it's one of his highest stats at base, tied only with luck. He also comes with 0 resistance, which means even with his relatively good growth, he's never going to be a reliable magic tank unless you get particularly blessed, because while 30% is relatively good, it's still pretty low. Thankfully he does get a pretty high promotion gain in that area and is further boosted by the Binding Blade, but like, that's irrelevant for the vast majority of the actual game. His growths are average, but they're dispersed in such a way that, when combined with his bases, makes him come out below average in everything. He has no reliable niche to fit into, aside from having high luck which doesn't really count for all that much. He can't reliably deal offense and he can't reliably tank, leaving him to just avoid most combat entirely.

Edited by Jotari

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23 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

How delightful that somebody is ignoring how Roy's growths are average to good across the board for FE6. If he is getting screwed, which doesn't really exist in actual arguments since averages are assumed (your results in practice will vary, every argument must caution), then FE6 must be very screwed up. Let us go growth by growth here:

  • HP: 80- The same as reputable characters like Rutger and Lance. Higher than Melady's 75. Not like the difference between an 80 and 90 HP growth is that big compared to such a difference in other stats.
  • Str: 40- Better than Rutger, the same as Lance, Lugh, and Dieck, only 5% worse than Allen. Admittedly there are a bunch of units with significantly more growth here though.
  • Skl: 50- Only Zeiss, Melady, Wolt, Shanna, Rutger, Sue, Fir, Shin, and Raigh tie or outdo him. That isn't a lot of people from an entire roster. (Chad, Merlinus, and Fae don't count.)
  • Spd: 40- This is actually one of Roy's weaker growths, the cast of FE6 lean on offense growths-wise and most characters who are good outdo him here.
  • Lck: 60- Ties with Shanna, Chad, loses 5% to Clarine, and more to Larum, Elffin, and Fae, but that is it. Roy is one of the best here.
  • Def: 25- Looks really bad, but GBA Emblem loves low Def growths, Bors, Wade, Lott, Zelot, Treck, Noah, Gwendolyn, Barth, Fae, Douglas, are the only characters with a 30 or more growth.
  • Res: 30- This is the highest for any non-Karel and Fae (the exceptions of exceptions) physical unit. Nobody even ties Roy, only magical units have him beat here.

 

I don't mean to argue, I just like doing some simple number crunching, and found something to do it on.

It does make the point however that growths aren't Roy's issue, bases, promotion timing, and other stuff is.

Sure, growths might not be his biggest issue, but they don't help, considering that his best growths are in the less important stats...

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Growth improvements are something that can be said to anyone in Binding Blade since that game structures more as a base > growth game most of the time. 

Bases for some units apart from Roy is also necessary.

However, it really is just needing to make his promotion be in Chapter 16/16x, rather than 22/22x. It's so late in the game that it's stupid. 

As a character, make Roy be more involved. He's just there as the leader of the army, but he by no means feels actually involved. Lilina has far more involvement than Roy does since it was her father that was killed, her kingdom that was betrayed, and so on.

The perfect way is to actually show and depict how Roy truly learns about how there are humans that do terrible things but also see the good. Roy should serve as the foil for Zephiel. Where Zephiel was estranged from his father's assassination attempt that he believes all humans are evil, Roy has to see the good in humans to say that they deserve to still live through. 

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Honestly, to "fix" Roy, a promotion before chapter 17 would be sufficient. A horse would be nice and thematically fitting (because Eliwood, but also because he becomes the leader of the Etrurian army, and a horse would fit that position, despite of what the General class is telling you) and maybe access to lances, as well, but both of those changes would be well, "nice", not necessary.

He'd still be a below-average unit, horse/lances or not, but I'm fine with that. It's not like he's unusable - early game chip damage is always appreciated, the Rapier, while not as strong as in other games, is still quite useful in Eric's map, and the western isles are kind to any unit with a sword rank.

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I kind of like the idea that he's supposed to be escorted to the throne so I don't really like the idea of making him too much better in combat since that just allows the player to take even slower on maps since Roy can now hold his own. There's not much you can do about how horses dominate the game unless you implement something like dismounting, but that would probably cause more problems. The only thing I would like to be done for Roy would be to give him something like leadership stars or the charm skill to make his nearby allies even stronger.

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ROY BOY SUCK but LUCK

nothing much to say really. just give him bases and a promo item from at least. chapter 13/14 sounds reasonable enough. 

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I like the idea of him not having a promotion but just getting more levels. His promotion only gives him stat gains anyway, so just increase his growths and have him with 6 move from the beginning. Increase his growths by 10 all around, his bases by 1-2 all around, give him 7 Con, and make the Binding Blade unbreakable. He won't be incredible since he's still sword-locked and not mounted, but it's a worthy improvement that ought to make him feel more rewarding while not being drastic.

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Okay, so basically his growths are good enough, but they're not nearly sufficient to make up for his poor bases.

So I think giving him +3 to STR/SKL/SPD/LCK/DEF/RES (and a regular promotion like everyone else) should be fine.  Actually, make that +4/+5 to SPD, since by Sword infantry standards he's particularly underwhelming in that area.

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Both better bases(though +3 to everything sounds like overkill) and better promo time. Also give the rapier its FE7 mt of 7 rather than 5.

He'll never be excellent by FE6 standart without cavalry move but I feel that's a bit drastic of a change. The above should be enough for him to be okay the whole way through... like most lords.

Edited by Cysx

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