How Can Roy Be Made Better?

[Slumber]

6 hours ago, Florete said:

I like the idea of him not having a promotion but just getting more levels. His promotion only gives him stat gains anyway, so just increase his growths and have him with 6 move from the beginning. Increase his growths by 10 all around, his bases by 1-2 all around, give him 7 Con, and make the Binding Blade unbreakable. He won't be incredible since he's still sword-locked and not mounted, but it's a worthy improvement that ought to make him feel more rewarding while not being drastic.

I honestly think Roy getting more levels rather than a promotion would just be a straight up downgrade. 

Even when I try to use him, he's essentially required to be babied the whole game due to the structure of FE6. I usually don't even get him to level 20 by chapter 22, unless I'm going out of the way to use him, which, again, is kind of counterproductive to the structure of FE6, which has big, windy maps that are all seize maps. It's the game that's arguably closest to "Horse Emblem" outside of FE4. 

If he were to just get a higher level cap, he suddenly now just loses out on promotion gains, which are more important to Roy than extra levels. His growths would have to be massively improved to make up for this, and it still doesn't really fix that actually just using Roy is a problem. 

Roy getting better bases would help a lot more, and he might be able to physically make it halfway through a map before the horses need to ferry him across the rest, but that would still be a problem. 

I almost think the scructure of FE6 would need to change entirely. The "All seize" objective type that I... Think was an homage to FE3? Would have to change. More map objectives that aren't just "rush the throne/gate" would help Roy a lot. A rout or defend chapter here or there would let him be able to pick off more than just axers who happen to spawn near the start of the map. And fewer maps where the objective is a few tiles away from where your units start, but there are big obstacles in the way where you have to go allllllllll the way around the entire map, and fewer maps where you start at the exact opposite corner of a huge map(That also has big obstacles in the way). 

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, Florete said:

I like the idea of him not having a promotion but just getting more levels. His promotion only gives him stat gains anyway, so just increase his growths and have him with 6 move from the beginning. Increase his growths by 10 all around, his bases by 1-2 all around, give him 7 Con, and make the Binding Blade unbreakable. He won't be incredible since he's still sword-locked and not mounted, but it's a worthy improvement that ought to make him feel more rewarding while not being drastic.

I fail to see how that helps him - after all, it did Marth a fat lot of good...

[Florete]

2 hours ago, Slumber said:

I honestly think Roy getting more levels rather than a promotion would just be a straight up downgrade. 

Even when I try to use him, he's essentially required to be babied the whole game due to the structure of FE6. I usually don't even get him to level 20 by chapter 22, unless I'm going out of the way to use him, which, again, is kind of counterproductive to the structure of FE6, which has big, windy maps that are all seize maps. It's the game that's arguably closest to "Horse Emblem" outside of FE4. 

If he were to just get a higher level cap, he suddenly now just loses out on promotion gains, which are more important to Roy than extra levels. His growths would have to be massively improved to make up for this, and it still doesn't really fix that actually just using Roy is a problem. 

Roy getting better bases would help a lot more, and he might be able to physically make it halfway through a map before the horses need to ferry him across the rest, but that would still be a problem. 

I almost think the scructure of FE6 would need to change entirely. The "All seize" objective type that I... Think was an homage to FE3? Would have to change. More map objectives that aren't just "rush the throne/gate" would help Roy a lot. A rout or defend chapter here or there would let him be able to pick off more than just axers who happen to spawn near the start of the map. And fewer maps where the objective is a few tiles away from where your units start, but there are big obstacles in the way where you have to go allllllllll the way around the entire map, and fewer maps where you start at the exact opposite corner of a huge map(That also has big obstacles in the way). 

That's why I said to give him the stat and growth buffs. +10% growth is an average of 1 point every ten levels. On top of +1-2 in every base stat, that will cover his promotion bonuses except Res (maybe give him like 4 base Res) and he'll have those stats sooner since he doesn't need to wait until the end for them.

I would consider giving him a horse to be a more drastic change. Binding Blade is certainly more favorable to mounted units than most games, but for most players being infantry isn't going to be a death sentence, and 6 move right away puts him a step above others.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I fail to see how that helps him - after all, it did Marth a fat lot of good...

I was going to respond seriously to this, but forget it. You're hopeless.

[Slumber]

4 hours ago, Florete said:

That's why I said to give him the stat and growth buffs. +10% growth is an average of 1 point every ten levels. On top of +1-2 in every base stat, that will cover his promotion bonuses except Res (maybe give him like 4 base Res) and he'll have those stats sooner since he doesn't need to wait until the end for them.

I would consider giving him a horse to be a more drastic change. Binding Blade is certainly more favorable to mounted units than most games, but for most players being infantry isn't going to be a death sentence, and 6 move right away puts him a step above others.

Giving him a horse is a solution. I don't like it so much, since it does little to help with the balance for the rest of the game. For as bad as Roy is, he's not the only one hurt by FE6's map/objective design. Even giving Roy 6 move from the get-go is only a marginal step in the right direction if they keep the map design the same.

I think redesigning the maps and varying the objectives would help a lot. But I also said this about SoV, and I still liked that, despite it basically doing nothing I hoped it would.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Slumber

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, Florete said:

I was going to respond seriously to this, but forget it. You're hopeless.

Well, I'm not too sure about FE12, but SD Marth was a step back from his previous incarnations. And there's the part where with FE6 being designed as it is, aka Horse Emblem, the extra levels might not even become relevant. Which makes me ask - do you even get Roy to 20???

[Von Ithipathachai]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Which makes me ask - do you even get Roy to 20???

Yes.  Before he promotes, at least.

[Jerry Kuma]

Give him slightly higher base stats and let him gain his promotion earlier and probably make him a mounted unit with the ability to use swords and lances like his father. While he may still not be super great or anything, it's probably the most realistic way to buff him.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Jerry Kuma

[Jotari]

If we make him mounted we lose that epic Sword of Seals animation though. He'd need a pretty awesome one on his horse to compensate.

[Jerry Kuma]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

If we make him mounted we lose that epic Sword of Seals animation though. He'd need a pretty awesome one on his horse to compensate.

Hmmm... Maybe HORSE CATAPULTING can help.

[Florete]

8 hours ago, Slumber said:

Giving him a horse is a solution. I don't like it so much, since it does little to help with the balance for the rest of the game. For as bad as Roy is, he's not the only one hurt by FE6's map/objective design. Even giving Roy 6 move from the get-go is only a marginal step in the right direction if they keep the map design the same.

I think redesigning the maps and varying the objectives would help a lot. But I also said this about SoV, and I still liked that, despite it basically doing nothing I hoped it would.

The topic asked for "How can Roy be improved as a unit while still fundamentally being the same unit?" Giving him a horse would, in my opinion, go against that. Redesigning the maps and varying the objectives just changes the game completely.

Look, I'm not saying my ideas are going to make Roy an amazing unit, and that's not what was asked. I gave a solution that kept Roy fundamentally similar while also making him better and more rewarding to use as a unit. Do you disagree with that?

[Slumber]

2 hours ago, Florete said:

The topic asked for "How can Roy be improved as a unit while still fundamentally being the same unit?" Giving him a horse would, in my opinion, go against that. Redesigning the maps and varying the objectives just changes the game completely.

Look, I'm not saying my ideas are going to make Roy an amazing unit, and that's not what was asked. I gave a solution that kept Roy fundamentally similar while also making him better and more rewarding to use as a unit. Do you disagree with that?

I don't know what part of my post came off as "Giving him a horse wouldn't fix his problem", because literally my first sentence said it's a solution. Just not one I'm a fan of. 

[Florete]

10 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I don't know what part of my post came off as "Giving him a horse wouldn't fix his problem", because literally my first sentence said it's a solution. Just not one I'm a fan of. 

I meant that giving him a horse would fundamentally change him as a unit.

[Slumber]

20 minutes ago, Florete said:

I meant that giving him a horse would fundamentally change him as a unit.

Then yeah, it would be more of a change. Can't disagree there. 

[henrymidfields]

I think Roy's simply shouldn't be in a pure-numbers game like the GBA ones, but a skill based one like FE Fates. Character/story-wise, Roy's meant to be a more realistic depiction of a military leader who utilises charisma, strategy and etc. Bring Robin's rally skills and some additional support conversation, and allow a higher limit of support-making, and allow EXP gains when he does a support conversation, or activate a skill in addition to usual means. As for his promotion, either just detach his levels from his promotion like one of the Jugdral games did, or make his levels 30/10.

[Emblemier Ben]

the obvious choice is to make him a dancer because then he doesn't have to worry about his bad growths

[Freikugel]

I don't think he should be better. His weakness is an example of integrating story into gameplay; changing it would contradict his character.

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, Freikugel said:

I don't think he should be better. His weakness is an example of integrating story into gameplay; changing it would contradict his character.

Yeah, but there are ways to stay true to that while still making him useful.

[darkblade2814]

give him an Ice Dragonsotne

[cxstrife256]

busted sword (in both FE6 and SSB4), not-so-busted user

Edited October 23, 2018 by cxstrife256

[pannacotta__]

Giving him any other weapon type would be helpful, but.... it doesn't really make sense. So I'd recommend just giving him a horse, and giving him charm/charisma would at least help him be decent. You could also just give him one more movement, and buff his stats. That wouldn't make him good, but it'd certainly make him better.

[Faellin]

Move his promotion to the end of chapter 16. That is typically around where he hits level cap for me. And it gives him plenty of time in his promoted class to level up more. And is a major point in the story so it would tie in perfectly.

Thats the major change the game needs.

[Paper Jam]

I vote earlier promotion. After liberating Etruria in chapter 16 or 16x seems like a good time to promote (and is roughly equivalent to when Ike promoted in FE9).

He'll never be excellent by FE6 standart without cavalry move but I feel that's a bit drastic of a change.

His dad got a horse upon promotion, so I'm not sure it would be too drastic of a change for him to get one too.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Paper Jam

[Steinn]

Definitely earlier promotion, and his dad got a horse so why not? A horse is worth so much more in FE6 than in FE7. 

Most Lords promote after a big story event or major event that causes them to grow as a character. And I'd say a good promotion point would be Chapter 16. It's a big story moment, and gives Roy time to grow as a promoted unit before the Binding Blade is acquired. 

[Trif]

Earlier promotion would probably be the simplest "buff" while still maintaining his character. A horse would definitely make him wayyy better but whether or not that fits with Roy's role in the game is neither here nor there.

One nice improvement would also be to make the rapier deal effective damage to nomads which it inexplicably doesn't (same with the halberd, maybe then chapter 4 wouldn't be so RNG-dependent), this would help out a lot on the earlier maps where you're forced to lean on Roy more.

[Panthera]

I'd say improve his bases. Obviously a horse would be the best thing but that's a big change. Roy's biggest issue with combat is just that his bases are so sketchy that even with good growths, he never actually becomes good unless he hits some implausibly high level. Give him like, +2 HP, +2 Strength, +2 Def. Add some Res I guess just for kicks and maybe an extra point of skill and speed, and suddenly he's looking a lot more solid. Still not particularly special, but he has some meaningful durability and chip damage in the early chapters (on things other than just Cavaliers) now to help him get started.