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Is Lyn better than Marcus/is Marcus good/ is Lyn good


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Just now, Slumber said:

Oh yeah. And even on the whole, they almost universally turn out better than Warriors, barring Geitz.

i mean outside of fucking fe7 Bartre, none of the fighters have a speed growth over 35%.

and Bartre's is 40% with 3 base.

 

I mean all things considered, both zerks and warriors are good classes for infantry. It's just that the fucking units are shite. I love using them however since I often want a bowman midgame and will often earlypromote a dude for E rank bows off good strength. Not the most efficient method, but at least they don't die to a stiff breeze like the archers.

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4 minutes ago, Mister Rogers said:

i mean outside of fucking fe7 Bartre, none of the fighters have a speed growth over 35%.

and Bartre's is 40% with 3 base.

 

I mean all things considered, both zerks and warriors are good classes for infantry. It's just that the fucking units are shite. I love using them however since I often want a bowman midgame and will often earlypromote a dude for E rank bows off good strength. Not the most efficient method, but at least they don't die to a stiff breeze like the archers.

I'd use any of the Fighters in the GBA FEs over any of the Archers. However, each game has at least one decent pre-promo Sniper that I'd probably use over any of the Fighters.

Only toss-up here is Dorcas/Bartre vs Louise. Both Dorcas and Bartre border on the line of being decent(I'd say they'd cross the line if the Warrior promotion gave +2 or more speed), while Louise is mostly superfluous, and her symbiotic relationship with Pent, who is OP as fuck on his own, is largely the only reason I'd ever really consider fielding her.

Garcia, meanwhile, I'd only ever use over Innes if I made him a Hero... which kind of defeats the purpose of building up a Fighter to make them an Archer.

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1 minute ago, Slumber said:

I'd use any of the Fighters in the GBA FEs over any of the Archers. However, each game has at least one decent pre-promo Sniper that I'd probably use over any of the Fighters.

Only toss-up here is Dorcas/Bartre vs Louise. Both Dorcas and Bartre border on the line of being decent(I'd say they'd cross the line if the Warrior promotion gave +2 or more speed), while Louise is mostly superfluous, and her symbiotic relationship with Pent, who is OP as fuck on his own, is largely the only reason I'd ever really consider fielding her.

Garcia, meanwhile, I'd only ever use over Innes if I made him a Hero... which kind of defeats the purpose of building up a Fighter to make them an Archer.

granted that Garcia gets +2 spd from hero promo and still performs well since it's fe8.

Hell, I mean you're likely doing pirate ross, Joshua is swordlocked, and Marisa is kinda crappy gameplaywise. Garcia's pretty much got a really good shot at the hero crest early on imo.

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16 hours ago, Florete said:

This was fun for a while but damn, now it's just getting depressing.

@DiogoJorgeI suggest you learn from the example of someone else who actually does believe Lyn is a good unit (me) and just let it go. Just because there are people who disagree doesn't mean an argument needs to be made.

In fact, I think a lot of people here could benefit from that advice...

Yes, I will do so. My playthrough will speak for itself anyway. Thanks for the understanding.

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7 hours ago, Mister Rogers said:

but yeah, the units are rather average as a whole. In the case of Dozla, he's arguably solid enough for use. I mean he can double Lyon at base with Garm use. That's just fucking hilarious, isnt it?

This, like the supposed ability of base Speed Benny to double the final Revelation boss, has less to the character in question, and more the circumstances of the game around them.

For Benny, it's how much temporary stat buffs you can accrue in Fates. For Dozla, it's how massively heavy Dark tomes are even for the penultimate boss (Nergal BTW didn't have this problem, Ereshkigal only weighed him down by two).

For River of Regrets Lyon, Fenrir, should he use that, weighs him down by  11, reducing his Hard Mode AS to 1, and for final battle Lyon, Naglfar inflicts the same 11 AS loss, reducing him to 5. He actually doesn't need Garm, given Dozla has 9 base Speed and this is pre-13 so 4 is the doubling minimum.

 

7 hours ago, Mister Rogers said:

Hell, I mean you're likely doing pirate ross, Joshua is swordlocked, and Marisa is kinda crappy gameplaywise. Garcia's pretty much got a really good shot at the hero crest early on imo.

"Kinda crappy", in a no-grind situation, doesn't begin to describe Marisa. But yep, I can see Garcia being the only real contender for one of the Hero Crests, and the second is obviously locked to Gerik. Who, like Raven and Harken before him, and maybe Dieck if I ever got to playing FE6, blast aside Fighters and Berserkers as infantry Axes.

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3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

This, like the supposed ability of base Speed Benny to double the final Revelation boss, has less to the character in question, and more the circumstances of the game around them.

For Benny, it's how much temporary stat buffs you can accrue in Fates. For Dozla, it's how massively heavy Dark tomes are even for the penultimate boss (Nergal BTW didn't have this problem, Ereshkigal only weighed him down by two).

For River of Regrets Lyon, Fenrir, should he use that, weighs him down by  11, reducing his Hard Mode AS to 1, and for final battle Lyon, Naglfar inflicts the same 11 AS loss, reducing him to 5. He actually doesn't need Garm, given Dozla has 9 base Speed and this is pre-13 so 4 is the doubling minimum.

 

"Kinda crappy", in a no-grind situation, doesn't begin to describe Marisa. But yep, I can see Garcia being the only real contender for one of the Hero Crests, and the second is obviously locked to Gerik. Who, like Raven and Harken before him, and maybe Dieck if I ever got to playing FE6, blast aside Fighters and Berserkers as infantry Axes.

yes, but I was more or less just trying to point out that even fucking Dozla isn't quite as bad as people make him out to be.

I mean, at least his bases+wpn rank lets him get use without major detriments. 

 

oh yeah, fe6 hero crests go in the order of like Rutger/Dieck>Fir/Gonzales>Lott/Ogier>Geese>Ward imo.

The first two are amazing and solid. Rutger's able to contribute by bosskilling due to the fucking throne avoid being an atrocity. Dieck gets 1-2 range on promotion, on top of his good bases. Fir's Rutger-lite, but is still handy. Gonzo is a gamble and depends on the player preference, but he serves well with the secret books. Lott's got Lowenesque growths and ok bases. Warrior promo gains in fe6 are insane anyways, so Lott can snowball if you use him. Ogier is basically Fe7 Raven-lite but in fe6. Not the worst investment, and comes before the isles. Ward is kind of crappy. Especially since you could just grab Bartre who is essentially like a 20/4 ward iirc.

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1 hour ago, Mister Rogers said:

yes, but I was more or less just trying to point out that even fucking Dozla isn't quite as bad as people make him out to be.

I mean, at least his bases+wpn rank lets him get use without major detriments. 

 

oh yeah, fe6 hero crests go in the order of like Rutger/Dieck>Fir/Gonzales>Lott/Ogier>Geese>Ward imo.

The first two are amazing and solid. Rutger's able to contribute by bosskilling due to the fucking throne avoid being an atrocity. Dieck gets 1-2 range on promotion, on top of his good bases. Fir's Rutger-lite, but is still handy. Gonzo is a gamble and depends on the player preference, but he serves well with the secret books. Lott's got Lowenesque growths and ok bases. Warrior promo gains in fe6 are insane anyways, so Lott can snowball if you use him. Ogier is basically Fe7 Raven-lite but in fe6. Not the worst investment, and comes before the isles. Ward is kind of crappy. Especially since you could just grab Bartre who is essentially like a 20/4 ward iirc.

Honestly got to disagree with you on the hero crest order, at least past Rutger/Dieck (although IMO it should be Rutger>Dieck on Hard Mode and reverse in normal mode since Dieck’s 1-2 range isn’t exactly impressive on hard mode). Everyone past those two is really mediocre-bad. Fir and Lot of the remaining 2 are probably the least bad, but Fir’s bosskilling Niche is probably already taken up, and isn’t super good for much else, and Lot’s just isn’t in a good class, although he comes early enough to help out. The other 4 are outright bad IMO, Gonzales having massive hit issues and being too fat (only 2 promoted mounted units can rescue his promoted ass, one of which is route exclusive), Geese just being weak overall (10 base strength and 9 base speed is just not good for his join time), Oujay is only usable because he comes before the isles, but his bases are still bad for his join time (He’s getting 2 shot and not doing the same in return), and of course, as you said, Wade is trash. Although somewhat ironically his stats are really similar to FE7 Bartre Midgame, with Wade having +2 HP, +1 Strength, +1 Skill, +3 Luck, -1 Defense, and -7 Resistance compared to Bartre w/ both being 20/3. 

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24 minutes ago, Aut said:

Honestly got to disagree with you on the hero crest order, at least past Rutger/Dieck (although IMO it should be Rutger>Dieck on Hard Mode and reverse in normal mode since Dieck’s 1-2 range isn’t exactly impressive on hard mode). Everyone past those two is really mediocre-bad. Fir and Lot of the remaining 2 are probably the least bad, but Fir’s bosskilling Niche is probably already taken up, and isn’t super good for much else, and Lot’s just isn’t in a good class, although he comes early enough to help out. The other 4 are outright bad IMO, Gonzales having massive hit issues and being too fat (only 2 promoted mounted units can rescue his promoted ass, one of which is route exclusive), Geese just being weak overall (10 base strength and 9 base speed is just not good for his join time), Oujay is only usable because he comes before the isles, but his bases are still bad for his join time (He’s getting 2 shot and not doing the same in return), and of course, as you said, Wade is trash. Although somewhat ironically his stats are really similar to FE7 Bartre Midgame, with Wade having +2 HP, +1 Strength, +1 Skill, +3 Luck, -1 Defense, and -7 Resistance compared to Bartre w/ both being 20/3. 

Gonzo really depends on the playstyle and preferences. The hit issues are incredibly noticeable in fe6. Someone who values reliability would not want him, but he's still got value in the Bartre route since you can just insta promo him asap for the skl boost and slap secret books on him.

 

Fir's useful since there's some actual stuff you might just want dead later on and she can do that. Let's not forget that she can help with a wyrmslayer later on. Granted she's not amazing, but she contributes more than someone like Ogier on HM. Ogier on HM is just a major crapshoot. Especially considering he gets outshined by Dieck/Echidna so hard. Fir at least comes in and can reliably ORKO axedudes on HM and gets the massive +30% crit boost on promo.

 

But yeah, it kinda comes down to 

"Do I value reliability", in which case Gonzo is trash.

or "Do I value investment" in which case Fir becomes sort of better since she's one of the few dudes that isn't totally fucked over vs sacae enemies. (Just don't position her to dodgetank fucking bows)

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1 hour ago, Mister Rogers said:

yes, but I was more or less just trying to point out that even fucking Dozla isn't quite as bad as people make him out to be.

I mean, at least his bases+wpn rank lets him get use without major detriments. 

 

oh yeah, fe6 hero crests go in the order of like Rutger/Dieck>Fir/Gonzales>Lott/Ogier>Geese>Ward imo.

The first two are amazing and solid. Rutger's able to contribute by bosskilling due to the fucking throne avoid being an atrocity. Dieck gets 1-2 range on promotion, on top of his good bases. Fir's Rutger-lite, but is still handy. Gonzo is a gamble and depends on the player preference, but he serves well with the secret books. Lott's got Lowenesque growths and ok bases. Warrior promo gains in fe6 are insane anyways, so Lott can snowball if you use him. Ogier is basically Fe7 Raven-lite but in fe6. Not the worst investment, and comes before the isles. Ward is kind of crappy. Especially since you could just grab Bartre who is essentially like a 20/4 ward iirc.

I'd say for HM it's Rutger>Dieck>Gonzo>Geese/Fir>Lot>Ogier>Wade

In almost any case, that 30% crit bonus is going to be coveted for promo bonuses over anything else.

  • Rutger should just be obvious.
  • Dieck gets Axe coverage and he has great bases, so that puts him above any of the Axers.
  • Gonzo's insane bases are both a blessing and a curse. He'll keep capramming strength, speed and HP, but his chances to get anything else, barring a point or two of def along the way, are slim to none. He'll be an insane PP unit where you can pick your shots, but he'll be a shaky EP unit a lot of the times.
  • Geese, I wouldn't say "weak" like @Aut, but he is just a more well-rounded, consistent, but not quite as strong on PP version of Gonzales. If you wanted, you could promote him instantly and he'd just be a better Garret... well, once his strength starts kicking off, he does kind of lick rocks for a good two or so levels when it comes to that. Once he gets a point or two into speed, he can reliably just be on Hand Axe duty, and he'll be reliable enough that it can carry him to promotion. He can also use Iron Axes without any AS loss, but like I'll get to with Fir, even 19 attack without doubling or range isn't really ideal to get the ball rolling on a unit. 
  • Fir starts with respectable STR and SPD, but she's not wielding anything higher than a Iron Sword at base. Which is a problem, since she joins at level 1, has pretty shaky durability, and joins about two-three chapters before the game turns into Lance city. And the chapter she joins on is when enemies she should be strong against start having 7 or higher AS, which locks her out of doubling if she doesn't use an Iron Sword and 14 might... It's not a good foundation to build on. She really only has her recruitment chapter and chapter 10 to make safe gains. Which is totally doable, but she's on a bit of a time crunch.
  • Lot's not the worst, and totally workable, but like you said, he's an infantry Lowen. Which wouldn't even be that great even if this was FE7, but in FE6, where enemies are noticeably more powerful than FE7, that's reaaaaaally not ideal, as it makes his sole utility combat... and nobody really looks at Lowen and goes "Yeah, that horse is nice, but I really just want to use him to tear shit up on the battlefield like Sain." He has solid enough growths across the board to turn out totally fine, but he's super prone to screwage outside of DEF and HP. If he fails to make significant gains to strength, he won't be doing the damage you need. If he doesn't make significant gains to skill, he won't be hitting as much as you need him to. He may reliably get speed, but he can also get screwed there, which will compromise both his offensive and defensive abilities.
  • Ogier is just bad. Underleveled, meh bases and meh growths, no significant promotion gains, and can't wield Axes properly at promotion. 
  • Wade is even worse.

NM it's probably more like Dieck>Rutger>Gonzo/Geese>Lot>Fir/Ogier>Wade

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Gonzo is weird in that his combat is suddenly surprisingly good in the endgame, as soon as the mentioned Lance Swarm arrives and assuming that you get him into promotion range in time. Like, 10/1 Gonzales' innate accuracy is about as good as 15/1 Allen's, although Allen's will obviously grow more significantly. Gonzo also has like +15 HP and same-ish Def, as well as 5-6 points more Str. So as long as the enemy is wielding a lance, Gonzales' combat will be at least on par with some of the heavy lifters, even though he will most likely have a lower level than them even if he promotes at 10. And while Peakwalk scenarios aren't particularly common, it's immensely satisfying when they do appear. ;):

Problem is, of course, that his hitrates will be about 60-ish without WTA and before promotion. And he's super fat, which makes it a pain to keep him at the frontlines - 16 Con after promotion means that neither Paladins nor promoted Pegasi will be able to carry him around.

Personally, I think that none of the candidates for the 2nd Hero Crest make a terribly big splash when promoted. Dieck honestly isn't that great anymore when the 2nd Crest arrives; Fir is a nice Delete Button, but most of the time she's kinda redundant with Rutger (I know, Pitfall, but SM is a bad EP class in the 2nd half of the game, so having two of them is only really useful if there's more than one enemy that need to die on PP); promoted Gonzo is a good EP unit but it's a bit of a pain to get him there; Lott and Geese all kinds of mediocre; Ogier and Wade are all kinds of bad. Which is probably my ranking, too, with a "=" between Dieck and Fir, as well as Lott and Deke.

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On 26.7.2018 at 2:06 PM, DragonFlames said:

It's stuff like this that really makes me shake my head at the Fire Emblem community at times. 11 pages debating how one unit is better / worse than the other, trying desperately to come up with "objective" reasoning for it (I'm sick of that word by now, since it's only a buzzword used with the intent to make one's own opinion seem superior to another's (kind of like other buzzwords that only exist to silence opinions one doesn't agree with, which for the sake of everyone's sanity shall remain unnamed)). The fact that people have multiple ways to S-rank FE7 only proves that there isn't a "perfect" or "correct" way to play. The only "correct" way to play a game is the way in which the player gets the most fun experience out of it and that is a VERY subjective thing.
Please keep in mind that subjectivity is not a bad thing as some people like to make it out to be. If there weren't contrasting opinions on stuff, interacting with people would be boring as all hell and I would have even less of a reason to try and get in contact with other folks.

Opinions are - by definition - subjective. I know people tend to forget about that little tidbit these days or try to deny it even exists for whatever reason (which would be nothing short of complete stupidity and / or arrogance), but it's there and it will always be there. As such, opinions can not be "objectively wrong" (because even the sky will not be blue to someone who is (colour)blind).
This extends to reviews as well, by the way.

I don't remember his name, but there was a philosopher who said that humans, by their very nature, cannot be objective or have an objective look at things, because everything we believe to be true is based on personal experiences and things other humans have taught us - themselves subjective beings.

 

On 26.7.2018 at 2:37 PM, DragonFlames said:

Here's a YouTube comment I found that pretty much explains what I mean:
"Wether [sic!] something is good or bad depends on our society's moral rules, created by us at a certain time. Vikings considered war and killing to be good, and weakness to be bad. Some terrorist consider that killing people is ok. Nazis considered that they were superior, that was the truth for them, and Hitler thought of himself as the good guy. They were fighting for the right cause on their eyes. Murdering was considered to be morally correct in some societies. So what defines what is really good or bad? Only our subjective truth, defined by the time period and the culture in wich [sic!] we are born. If you had been born on a different culture at a different time period you would have different morals and different convictions about life."
The relevant video which does a good job explaining what I meant when I said objectivity isn't a thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roxzqaq0IMs

What the hell was I thinking writing this?
I'm sorry, everyone. Lately, my head is in all the wrong places and I just babble on about things I don't understand. I didn't mean to offend anyone and I don't even know why I even wrote that garbage in the first place.

If you don't want to accept my apology, that's fine, too. I think I really need to take a break from... basically everything.

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40 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

 

What the hell was I thinking writing this?
I'm sorry, everyone. Lately, my head is in all the wrong places and I just babble on about things I don't understand. I didn't mean to offend anyone and I don't even know why I even wrote that garbage in the first place.

If you don't want to accept my apology, that's fine, too. I think I really need to take a break from... basically everything.

I accept it, as long as you understand there's lines that one shouldn't cross (which terrorists have been doing for ages) and the like, then it's okay, since you understand there's a limit for everything.

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1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

 

What the hell was I thinking writing this?
I'm sorry, everyone. Lately, my head is in all the wrong places and I just babble on about things I don't understand. I didn't mean to offend anyone and I don't even know why I even wrote that garbage in the first place.

If you don't want to accept my apology, that's fine, too. I think I really need to take a break from... basically everything.

Tis alright my good friend. Take all the time you need. One SF post doesn't define who you are in your entirety.

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On 26-7-2018 at 5:56 PM, Florete said:

@DiogoJorgeI suggest you learn from the example of someone else who actually does believe Lyn is a good unit (me) and just let it go. Just because there are people who disagree doesn't mean an argument needs to be made.

What are your arguments then? What are some units that you think are worse than Lyn that are generally considered better?

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1 hour ago, Mekkah said:

What are your arguments then? What are some units that you think are worse than Lyn that are generally considered better?

If this was a discussion I was interested in having, I would have already made such things known.

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1 minute ago, Cobalnite said:

This makes me remember of the days when I thought that Lyn was high tier and prepromotes should be avoided like the plague

Yeah I thought the same when I first started playing FE 

now like pre promotes, but I still find growth units fun to use 

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5 minutes ago, Cobalnite said:

This makes me remember of the days when I thought that Lyn was high tier and prepromotes should be avoided like the plague

When I first played FE7 I remember following the gamefaq guides for it, and I remember thinking why the hell is Rebecca so bad? I thought she was supposed to be good. Now I have seen the light.

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9 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

Yeah I thought the same when I first started playing FE 

now like pre promotes, but I still find growth units fun to use 

Yup, same for me

Pent is my one of my most favorite units (second only to Ninian)

 

And I still bother training Rebecca, because I enjoy her character and she's cute (except in Heroes)

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