Is Lyn better than Marcus/is Marcus good/ is Lyn good

[MacLovin]

15 minutes ago, Florete said:

"Prepromote" was basically a derogatory back in the day. Now it's a compliment.

Unless the unit was like wolf or sedgar in fe11.

 

 

Man this topic turned into a shit fest .

[Florete]

9 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

When exactly did it shift from derogatory to compliment?

That's not an easy thing to pinpoint. When I browsed GameFAQs back in 2003-2004, I remember there being a lot of hate for pretty much any prepromote except maybe Pent and Harken (note that FE7 was the only FE available in English at the time). I wasn't really part of the community again until this forum opened up early in 2008, and by then there was still some negativity but people were largely coming around to the idea of them not being inherently bad. When tier lists started being made (late 2008/early 2009) the positivity towards them became much clearer.

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, Florete said:

That's not an easy thing to pinpoint. When I browsed GameFAQs back in 2003-2004, I remember there being a lot of hate for pretty much any prepromote except maybe Pent and Harken (note that FE7 was the only FE available in English at the time). I wasn't really part of the community again until this forum opened up early in 2008, and by then there was still some negativity but people were largely coming around to the idea of them not being inherently bad. When tier lists started being made (late 2008/early 2009) the positivity towards them became much clearer.

I was part of a FE community from 2006 until just about when SD came out. 

Even up until RD, growths and averages were generally the sole determinator of if a unit was good. 

RD was kind of a shifting point, I think. While premmies had some respect here and there(Echidna, Percival, Pent, Harken, Seth, Titania, etc.), it didn't become prevalent until RD... Where basically any unit worth using had already been promoted at least once, and the base class units were bad to mediocre in almost all cases. 

[Heptade]

Hmmm... I see the phenomenon known as Diogo is no longer contained within GameFAQs...

Will we soon have debates on whether Clive can remove his armor, and thus dodge lightning, in one second by merely flexing his muscles, here at Serenes Forest?

Those are strange times that we live in...

[DisobeyedCargo]

5 minutes ago, Heptade said:

Hmmm... I see the phenomenon known as Diogo is no longer contained within GameFAQs...

Will we soon have debates on whether Clive can remove his armor, and thus dodge lightning, in one second by merely flexing his muscles, here at Serenes Forest?

Those are strange times that we live in...

Oh god I thought this thread was done 

I mean to be fair to Clive he’s IMO one of the better units character wise in the game what with seeing his ideals challenged and how he changes over the game, along with his lover about how he clearly realizes his own inadequacy compared to her

[Heptade]

45 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

Oh god I thought this thread was done 

I mean to be fair to Clive he’s IMO one of the better units character wise in the game what with seeing his ideals challenged and how he changes over the game, along with his lover about how he clearly realizes his own inadequacy compared to her

Sorry... 

[Geenoble]

 

On 14/07/2018 at 6:39 PM, DiogoJorge said:

 

- Any premoted-promoted unit can be good if you force growth units to suck through a 0% growth run, why not a 0 personal base run then to justify using growth units instead?

 

@DiogoJorge Probably really late to this topic, and someone might have said this already, but in a 0 personal bases run, Marcus would still probably be the best unit since with everyone having bad strength, Marcus' Silver Lance will carry him until he has subpar stats, and he has the class bases of a paladin, meaning he still has 23/7/4/7/0/8/3 in his stats. May not seem a lot higher then say Lowen's 20/5/2/5/0/6/0 but they can be seen quite easily since everyone but Marcus will be below the enemies level.

[DiogoJorge]

4 hours ago, Geenoble said:

 

@DiogoJorge Probably really late to this topic, and someone might have said this already, but in a 0 personal bases run, Marcus would still probably be the best unit since with everyone having bad strength, Marcus' Silver Lance will carry him until he has subpar stats, and he has the class bases of a paladin, meaning he still has 23/7/4/7/0/8/3 in his stats. May not seem a lot higher then say Lowen's 20/5/2/5/0/6/0 but they can be seen quite easily since everyone but Marcus will be below the enemies level.

No, he really wouldn't. His averages say so. 

Everyone else, grews plenty, Marcus would never be able to catch up with his lame stats.

[MacLovin]

fair point in vacuum world.

Marcus remains useful forever. In any playstyle. 

Even the Nintendo Power Guide says so.

[Hanes]

8 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

No, he really wouldn't. His averages say so. 

Everyone else, grews plenty, Marcus would never be able to catch up with his lame stats.

I just finished playing through VoD ,in granted EHM, and I can say that Vaida with 13 speed was doubling almost all the enemies, imagine with 15! You don't check stats much but the con of say cavaliers is 9 whilst Steel Lances which they use a lot weighs 13 so they are doubled by almost anything with over 11 speed. His 20/20 Stats are

HP: 43
STR: 20
SKL: 24
SPD: 15
LCK:13
DEF:12
RES:14

I have already stated my opinion on rounding up stats and why I think it's wrong since it elevates numbers when they aren't really higher then but if we do round up as you "biasedly" did so to Lyn then his stats are

HP:43
STR: 21
SKL: 25
SPD: 16
LCK: 14
DEF: 13
RES: 15

So these stats are just rounded up versions of the previous ones and I don't know what says bad to you for 15 or 16 speed. 12/13 DEF is also good enough with that 43 HP and 14/15 RES is very good, he is also your longest most reliable hitters (meaning he has the highest hit percent chance title for the longest time) with 24/25 Skl which means 48/50% Hit and 13/14 Luck means +6/7 Hit which in total is 54-57  Hit and it's very reliable. So these stats are not bad, they might not serve you for lategame bosses but those should be killed with luna anyways or someone strong like Rebecca or Lyn  Canas/Raven/Florina/Pent/Hawkeye/Jaffar etc. 

While it is true that other units will be better in the lategame saying he isn't good is wrong; it's as if I were to compare two companies say Marco's Quality Shoes with a network of 235 Million dollars and David's Classic Piano shop with a network of 1 Billion dolars. Now of course David's shop has way more money but that doesn't mean that Marco's shop is poor or has little money. Or in simpler child terms when I say an apple is more delicious than a pear it doesn't mean pears taste afwul.

Edited October 1, 2018 by This boi uses Nino

[eclipse]

11 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

No, he really wouldn't. His averages say so.

Remember, SF is also a site with a lot of numbers.  And Marcus can get quite a bit of experience from killing bosses.  Just saying.

[Geenoble]

Did i just revive a dead topic?

So much Power. Anyway, in a 0 personal bases run your best units would be the lords (since Hector and Eliwood have no personal bases and Lyns personal bases are really small, like she gets a 2 in Hp or something.) and units who join with high weapon ranks,belong to classes with high bases and have decent growths. Most units would take a lot of time to become good and it would be more difficult to grind them then it would be for Bartre to not die using the Devil Axe. 

Anyway I'm going to compare Lyn vs Marcus with no personal Bases. Taking luck out of the eauation since luck really doesn't matter.

Lyn class bases, 16 HP/4 Str/7 Skl/9 Spd/2 Def/ 0 Res

Marcus Class Bases, 23 HP/7 Str/4 Skl/7 Spd/8 Def/ 3 Res

here are some stats for some of the enemies in Lyns joining chapter. I havn't included Res since Marcus and Lyn both Atk based on Defense, and these calculations are assuming Marcus hasn't already gained any levels.

Mercenary lvl 5, 22 HP/ 6 Str/ 10 Skl/ 9.6 Spd/ 4.9 Def/ 9 Con, equipped with Steel Sword. 8 or 9 AS and 14 Atk

Archer Lvl 6, 22.2 HP/ 6.1 Str/ 5.4 Skl/ 4.92 Spd/ 3.9 Def/ 7 Con, equipped with Steel Bow. 2 or 3 AS and 15 or 16 Atk

Now as you can see, Both aren't doubling the Mercenary, but unless they're heavily weighed down neither are getting doubled either. Lyn with the Mani Kati will have 12 Atk and do 8 or 7 damage to the Mercenary, requiring either 3 or 4 rounds for a KO, and she does even less damage with an Iron Sword, and gets doubled if she uses a Steel Sword. Marcus on the other Hand will have 13 Atk with an Iron sword, meaning he will always be able to 3 round KO, and with the Silver lance he has 20 Atk, meaning he will only need 2 rounds to Ko the mercenary. The Mercenary will do 12 damage to Lyn, Ko'ing her in 2 rounds, and without WT or a forest Lyn is quite likely to be hit. Marcus again, is better here. Mercenary's only doing 6 damage to him, meaning he will survive the three he requires to score the KO. With the Archer it's somewhat similar, now both Lyn and Marcus double this archer, Lyn will require either 3 or four rounds to Ko this Archer, Marcus 1 round Ko's with the Silver Lance and either 3 or 4 round Ko's with the Hand Axe, plus with the Hand Axe Marcus will counter the Archer on Enemy Phase. The archer still Ko's Lyn in 2 Rounds and needs 4 or 5 rounds to kill Marcus.

Even after Lyn has time to grow,

Marcus at lvl 10 (average level for him once you get 1st Heaven Seal) has 29 HP/ 10 Str/ 9 Skl/ 9.5 Spd/ 9.5 Def/ 6.5 Res.

Lyn after promotion at lvl 16 (reasonable level for her at this stage and assuming you choose her over Eliwood) will have 

29.5 HP/ 12 Str/ 18 Skl/ 18 Spd/ 8 Def/ 9.5 Res

Lyn obviously has the better stats but due to Marcus having Canto, 1-2 range and 8 move means he can get to the fight more quickly and contribute more, counter and do better on enemy phase and have more utility, and even if he doesn't double like Lyn does he still takes hits and dishes out high amounts of damage, and it's not like Lyns going to go in and solo entire parts of the map like Vanilla marcus does, so just because she may have slightly better combat them him, doesn't make her a better unti since she will contribute around the same as Marcus regardless. 

Also Lyn is annoying to train in reguler HHM anyway, so if you make her worse by removing her personal bases it just becomes even harder.

 

[DiogoJorge]

5 hours ago, Geenoble said:

Did i just revive a dead topic?

So much Power. Anyway, in a 0 personal bases run your best units would be the lords (since Hector and Eliwood have no personal bases and Lyns personal bases are really small, like she gets a 2 in Hp or something.) and units who join with high weapon ranks,belong to classes with high bases and have decent growths. Most units would take a lot of time to become good and it would be more difficult to grind them then it would be for Bartre to not die using the Devil Axe. 

Anyway I'm going to compare Lyn vs Marcus with no personal Bases. Taking luck out of the eauation since luck really doesn't matter.

Lyn class bases, 16 HP/4 Str/7 Skl/9 Spd/2 Def/ 0 Res

Marcus Class Bases, 23 HP/7 Str/4 Skl/7 Spd/8 Def/ 3 Res

here are some stats for some of the enemies in Lyns joining chapter. I havn't included Res since Marcus and Lyn both Atk based on Defense, and these calculations are assuming Marcus hasn't already gained any levels.

Mercenary lvl 5, 22 HP/ 6 Str/ 10 Skl/ 9.6 Spd/ 4.9 Def/ 9 Con, equipped with Steel Sword. 8 or 9 AS and 14 Atk

Archer Lvl 6, 22.2 HP/ 6.1 Str/ 5.4 Skl/ 4.92 Spd/ 3.9 Def/ 7 Con, equipped with Steel Bow. 2 or 3 AS and 15 or 16 Atk

Now as you can see, Both aren't doubling the Mercenary, but unless they're heavily weighed down neither are getting doubled either. Lyn with the Mani Kati will have 12 Atk and do 8 or 7 damage to the Mercenary, requiring either 3 or 4 rounds for a KO, and she does even less damage with an Iron Sword, and gets doubled if she uses a Steel Sword. Marcus on the other Hand will have 13 Atk with an Iron sword, meaning he will always be able to 3 round KO, and with the Silver lance he has 20 Atk, meaning he will only need 2 rounds to Ko the mercenary. The Mercenary will do 12 damage to Lyn, Ko'ing her in 2 rounds, and without WT or a forest Lyn is quite likely to be hit. Marcus again, is better here. Mercenary's only doing 6 damage to him, meaning he will survive the three he requires to score the KO. With the Archer it's somewhat similar, now both Lyn and Marcus double this archer, Lyn will require either 3 or four rounds to Ko this Archer, Marcus 1 round Ko's with the Silver Lance and either 3 or 4 round Ko's with the Hand Axe, plus with the Hand Axe Marcus will counter the Archer on Enemy Phase. The archer still Ko's Lyn in 2 Rounds and needs 4 or 5 rounds to kill Marcus.

Even after Lyn has time to grow,

Marcus at lvl 10 (average level for him once you get 1st Heaven Seal) has 29 HP/ 10 Str/ 9 Skl/ 9.5 Spd/ 9.5 Def/ 6.5 Res.

Lyn after promotion at lvl 16 (reasonable level for her at this stage and assuming you choose her over Eliwood) will have 

29.5 HP/ 12 Str/ 18 Skl/ 18 Spd/ 8 Def/ 9.5 Res

Lyn obviously has the better stats but due to Marcus having Canto, 1-2 range and 8 move means he can get to the fight more quickly and contribute more, counter and do better on enemy phase and have more utility, and even if he doesn't double like Lyn does he still takes hits and dishes out high amounts of damage, and it's not like Lyns going to go in and solo entire parts of the map like Vanilla marcus does, so just because she may have slightly better combat them him, doesn't make her a better unti since she will contribute around the same as Marcus regardless. 

Also Lyn is annoying to train in reguler HHM anyway, so if you make her worse by removing her personal bases it just becomes even harder.

 

I never had trouble leveling her in HHM, S rank runs at that. Lyn is simple to use for me, due to her good stats all around, with the exception of DEF.

Marcus grows too slowly to matter in the long run, I wouldn't be caught dead giving me all bosses experience. He will kill bosses, if necessary, I'm not feeding him anything beyond that.

[MacLovin]

use the site's resources and remember that PEMN.

 

marcus gets 45 exp per bosskill early on. This means that he can easily get some levels. He does this efficiently and makes use of the consistently guaranteed exp. This lets you focus your other dudes on the rest of the map.

 

 

as site averages say, Lyn's bad. It's been discussed to death over and over. Yes Lyn's got a good prf and can nuke some shit. Too bad that once it runs out, she's kinda screwed unless we give her killing/reaver/silver weapons. 

Mekkah's video is clear and addresses all of the salient points as to why folks generally think Lyn is mediocre at best. Hell I like her as a character and her design is neat. It's just that she's got worse durability than fucking Lucius and is rangelocked in an enemy phase heavy game.

Edited October 2, 2018 by Joe Cool

[DiogoJorge]

16 hours ago, Joe Cool said:

use the site's resources and remember that PEMN.

 

marcus gets 45 exp per bosskill early on. This means that he can easily get some levels. He does this efficiently and makes use of the consistently guaranteed exp. This lets you focus your other dudes on the rest of the map.

 

 

as site averages say, Lyn's bad. It's been discussed to death over and over. Yes Lyn's got a good prf and can nuke some shit. Too bad that once it runs out, she's kinda screwed unless we give her killing/reaver/silver weapons. 

Mekkah's video is clear and addresses all of the salient points as to why folks generally think Lyn is mediocre at best. Hell I like her as a character and her design is neat. It's just that she's got worse durability than fucking Lucius and is rangelocked in an enemy phase heavy game.

Considering his mediocre growths, I have little reason to have him kill any bosses other than the ones I have no choice to do so with him.

Disagreed, I look at averages and see a good unit. It never runs out, because I only use it for it's intended targets, she reaches endgame with 5 uses remaining or so.

I disagree with Mekkah though, and for reasons I already explained before. I don't care about range when she can kill them anyway during player phase and when there's no shortage of enemies that attack at 1 range. She also has bows to bait mages and other ranged enemies, once promoted.

[Hanes]

6 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I don't care about range when she can kill them anyway during player phase and when there's no shortage of enemies that attack at 1 range. She also has bows to bait mages and other ranged enemies, once promoted.

Yes she can kill them on player phase, one by one by one by one by one by one for every player phase... You realize how dumb that is? And sure there are a lot of 1 range enemies but there are also many 2 range enemies and they aren't segregated like America in the 50s so you can't just tell me to not put her up against those enemies, I might as well just not use her since there are 2 ranged enemies mixed with 1 range enemies and luring out Mages with bows? AT the edge of their range? That is usually way too far away from the heat of battle and they are probably going to tackle your other unit that joins up with Lyn who probably doesn't have a javelin because you don't like them so that mage just gets in your way  and attacks him instead and Lyn saw no combat and you realize that when enemies have 2 range weapons we mean 1-2 range, the FE community understands this stuff so we don't have to write 1-2 range 1-2 raange 1-2 range all the time but since it seems you forget they can attack at melee then I might just have to not simplify anything for you. Where am I going with this? Well Sending a bow user in the middle of 1-2 range enemies will only make them attack you at 1 range what a waste of a turn! 

[Ironthunder]

YOU don't care about range. The fact everyone else does means a lot more. The issue is that while she can kill during player phase, or she can bait ranged enemies, and deal with 1-rangers on EP, she can't do it all at once. Marcus with a Javelin can. She can't even bait mages and ranged folk until the lategame. These are the issues we think of. Not 'can she do it?', more 'can she do it at the same time as everything else?'. Lyndis can chop through on player phase and bait a couple on enemy phase. Marcus can sit there and fight against anything short of a ballista, a siege tome or a longbow. None of which are very common, and none of which Lyndis can do anyway. Marcus can do so much more than Lyndis that it's not even funny. Lyn can either fight at 1-range and get dunked on by 2-range, or fight at 2-range and get dunked on at 1-range. Marcus fights at both and isn't dunked on at either. 

[Hecatia]

I can't believe for how long has this topic been going.

All the points were already proven, Lyn can't do better than Marcus in lots of places and when Lyn can get bows it's already too late because there's already Louise, promoted Rebecca/Will and/or Rath.

I don't understand the motives to make this any longer, honestly. Wasn't this an attempt to make people angry?

Edited October 3, 2018 by 1% Critical Hit
adding info that i forgot

[Hanes]

3 minutes ago, 1% Critical Hit said:

I can't believe for how long has this topic been going.

All the points were already proven, Lyn can't do better than Marcus in lots of places and when Lyn can get bows it's already too late because there's already Louise, promoted Rebecca/Will and/or Rath.

I don't understand the motives to make this any longer, honestly. Wasn't this an attempt to make people angry?

I know someone just revived this topic

[DarthR0xas]

It's a fun read regardless.

[Florete]

4 hours ago, 1% Critical Hit said:

Louise, promoted Rebecca/Will and/or Rath.

These are not good units to compare her to, lol. Except possibly Rath.

[DiogoJorge]

9 hours ago, 1% Critical Hit said:

I can't believe for how long has this topic been going.

All the points were already proven, Lyn can't do better than Marcus in lots of places and when Lyn can get bows it's already too late because there's already Louise, promoted Rebecca/Will and/or Rath.

I don't understand the motives to make this any longer, honestly. Wasn't this an attempt to make people angry?

They have yet to be proven to me.

Those are inferior to Lyn to begin with.

Don't know myself, I thought people would just agree to disagree and let it be.

[Geenoble]

Oof, now i feel bad for wasting peoples time.

Anyway Diogo, It's perfectly fine if you like using Lyn, hell i like benching Seth when i play SS to make the game somewhat difficult, and honestly. It really doesn't matter how anyone plays a game, tier lists are subjective, and whether Marcus is better than Lyn / vice versa can always come down to opinion.

Either way Bartre beats both. 

[Just call me AL]

13 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

They have yet to be proven to me.

No, they've been proven. Multiple times no less, all the while you've been sticking your fingers in your ears.

Quote

Those are inferior to Lyn to begin with.

Rebecca & Louise? Yeah. But that's not the point @1% Critical Hit was making. The point in question was that Rebecca and Louise would be able to use Silver Bows by the time Lyn is able to use Bows at all. (Not that anyone would use Rebecca over either Lyn or Louise anyways, when trying to get through the game easily.) Rath? He's more or less at the same level as Lyn, contribution-wise. Marcus? Only in Opposite World is Marcus "inferior" to Lyn.

Quote

Don't know myself, I thought people would just agree to disagree and let it be.

This is still on the 1st page of the topic list, and there's still people to come with things to say. What do you think is going to happen?

Edited October 4, 2018 by Just call me AL

[Hecatia]

22 hours ago, DarthR0xas said:

It's a fun read regardless.

I must confess that it was fun, I was just surprised of how much time was this here.

2 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

The point in question was that Rebecca and Louise would be able to use Silver Bows by the time Lyn is able to use Bows

That was exactly my point. I find difficult to remember stats more than base ones so that was the only point I could make.

And you know... I'm sure there's lots of playthroughs and video opinions about this topic, you just have to watch em'.