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Is Lyn better than Marcus/is Marcus good/ is Lyn good

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7 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

A rank isn't top tier, so I didn't claim her to be so. S rank is, which only Hector qualifies for.

I recognize her flaws, but there aren't many units that are better than her.

That's not what I'm arguing however. I'm arguing that Lyn is A rank and that Marcus is B rank at best, not the same thing you are claiming I said.

I'm aware of that, I don't need personal experience to know she's good.

And by averages, Lyn has pretty good stats all around, with the exception of DEF. I already looked them up plenty of times before, that's precisely why I don't bother with Marcus, I'm not waiting that long so that he can have barely minimum stats.

The fact that you've remained this tone deaf after the time you've been gone is impressive at best and derailing at worst. Every thread is not a soapbox for you to preach about your anecdotal and biased claims about tiering and unit viability. I'll try to make it easier for you, though others have done a much better job at deconstructing your arguments and giving you meaningful points to respond to (something you have consistently failed to do).

 

1. At what point is Lyn capable of performing any actions which Marcus cannot perform more effectively, as effectively, or adequately in the context of FE7 and its enemies?

2. Is there a benchmark for these actions, if so, for how many chapters can Lyn perform these functions in a way that is meaningfully superior to Marcus? (e.g. 1RKO when Marcus can only 2RKO) Please assume average stats and do not mention your playthroughs in which the RNG favoured Lyn.

3. Exactly why do these differences raise Lyn to A-rank and lower Marcus below her?

4. It is patently false when you say "I don't need personal experience to know she's good" as the entirety of your argument is predicated on anecdotal and personal experiences, like most people. Unless you have a clearly defined playstyle in which Lyn is able to function more effectively than units you list below her, as well as a metric for measuring effectiveness, you have no argument.

Edited by gjuptonv

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Marcus bad? You make me laugh, go play FE6 @DiogoJorge, in FE7 most of your units can kill anything easily so units like Marcus see less use but play FE6 and you'll see that enemies are harder to kill, while FE6 Marcus can ORKO enemies and he becomes yourmost valuable unit since he can kill stuff even if he gets outmatched later on he is a powerhouse during the early-game you yourself said it "early game is as important as midgame and lategame" so he emains useful all the time, go play chapter 7 without Marcus and Zealot/Jerrot and tell me you can beat it in 15 turns no casualties all houses and all chests looted, I tell you you won't. And why would I care about your turn count? well to prevent turtling since then any map can be made easy by turtling. This is more a defense to Jagens in general because you undermine their worth. Oh now I know what you'll do, grab bandicam (without the watermark or  maybe using the Visualboy recording options) strawman the heck out of the video and self propell your argument, then upload to youtube to make yourself look grand and then mock us in the description, you did that in your "How to properly use Rebecca [...]". 

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17 hours ago, gjuptonv said:

The fact that you've remained this tone deaf after the time you've been gone is impressive at best and derailing at worst. Every thread is not a soapbox for you to preach about your anecdotal and biased claims about tiering and unit viability. I'll try to make it easier for you, though others have done a much better job at deconstructing your arguments and giving you meaningful points to respond to (something you have consistently failed to do).

 

1. At what point is Lyn capable of performing any actions which Marcus cannot perform more effectively, as effectively, or adequately in the context of FE7 and its enemies?

2. Is there a benchmark for these actions, if so, for how many chapters can Lyn perform these functions in a way that is meaningfully superior to Marcus? (e.g. 1RKO when Marcus can only 2RKO) Please assume average stats and do not mention your playthroughs in which the RNG favoured Lyn.

3. Exactly why do these differences raise Lyn to A-rank and lower Marcus below her?

4. It is patently false when you say "I don't need personal experience to know she's good" as the entirety of your argument is predicated on anecdotal and personal experiences, like most people. Unless you have a clearly defined playstyle in which Lyn is able to function more effectively than units you list below her, as well as a metric for measuring effectiveness, you have no argument.

1. As soon she joins she's already doubling more enemies than Marcus can, she also has better supports than him. She can double enemies that Marcus can't, has acess to many effective weapons which cover knights, cavaliers, wyverns and pegasus. She can use Silver Sword or Steel sword for pretty much everything else and helps Hector become even more powerfull than he already is.

2. Sure, there quite a some knights, specially cavaliers she can double to death due to having around 10 STR by the time of Dread Isle. Which Marcus can't with his 11 SPD. Not to mention he has poor growths so the experience goes to waste on him.

3. Lyn grows, while Marcus doesn't. Lyn doubles while Marcus doesn't. Lyn supports while Marcus doesn't.

4. No it's not. it's true. Since it it doesn't take personal experience to tell that Lyn has a average STR of 10 by lv 15. I have a clearly defined playstyle in which Lyn plays more effectively than the units I list below her though, so I have an argument no matter what you say.

Edited by DiogoJorge

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3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

1. As soon she joins she's already doubling more enemies than Marcus can

Lyn's average Spd coming out of LHM: 12

Marcus' base Spd: 11

Not sure if trolling...

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she also has better supports than him. 

Which is irrelevant for the most part.

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She can double enemies that Marcus can't

Which only come during a point where you have more units to pick up the slack, and where a single unit isn't worth much.

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has acess to many effective weapons which cover knights, cavaliers, wyverns and pegasus.

So does Marcus, who doesn't really need them outside of bosses.

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She can use Silver Sword or Steel sword for pretty much everything else 

So can Marcus, who has three things in regards to this that Lyn doesn't: Lances, Axes, and a higher Str stat.

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2. Sure, there quite a some knights, specially cavaliers she can double to death due to having around 10 STR by the time of Dread Isle. Which Marcus can't with his 11 SPD.

Given how little Lyn's speed would have increased by then, I have no reason not to consider this statement a blatant lie.

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Not to mention he has poor growths so the experience goes to waste on him.

They're "good enough" to allow him to maintain relevance throughout the game. And how many times must you be told that 15 Spd doubles most enemies in the game? Or that he helps prevent EXP overflow when you're killing a boss? Or that he should be killing bosses, period, since he gets a greater milage from boss EXP, given that it's inherently better to give 50-100 EXP to someone who otherwise gains 5 EXP per kill, than it is to give 100 EXP to someone who otherwise gains 30 EXP per kill. The latter has no issues gaining levels, to say the least. Stop pretending that isn't the case.

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3. Lyn grows, while Marcus doesn't.

False. Both of them grow. You only don't see it with the latter because you sandbag him.

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Lyn doubles while Marcus doesn't. 

Which, given the pitiful AS on enemies, is false in regards to Marcus.

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Lyn supports while Marcus doesn't.

Which is irrelevant. 

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4. No it's not. it's true. Since it it doesn't take personal experience to tell that Lyn has a average STR of 10 by lv 15. I have a clearly defined playstyle in which Lyn plays more effectively than the units I list below her though, so I have an argument no matter what you say.

But every time you are asked about this supposedly "clearly defined playstyle", you refuse to clarify. Which means that you're either willfully withholding information for the purposes of needlessly dragging out this discussion, or that you don't actually have a defined playstyle despite your claim.

Also, I see you decided to ignore my post. Why?

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In Lyn's joining chapter, Marcus doubles everything except for Mercs and Myrms who mostly have around 9-11 AS. Lyn might double all of those - she reaches 15 AS at level 11, which needs some investment in LHM to reach. One Myrm has 13 AS, so Lyn needs to be speedblessed to double him (or at level 14-15, which isn't really resonable).

The Myrmidons seem to have about 21 HP / 3 Def. It takes 14 Atk to 2HKO that, which shouldn't be a problem for Lyn - Mani Katti has 8 might, she reaches 6 Str at level 6 (or 7 at level 8-9 if the Myrm has a forest to stand in). However, the Mercs have at least 23 HP / 5 Def, which takes 17 Atk to 2HKO. Lyn reaches the necessary 9 Str at level 14, i.e. not in Lyn Mode. Admittedly, she can take the LHM Energy Ring to improve those odds, although I personally think that Florina is a much better recipient for both stat boosters.

Meanwhile, Marcus can one-shot all but one (the lv. 5 Merc who has 26 HP / 5 Def) of these swordies with the Silver Lance, if needed - 15 Str + 14 Might + 1 for WTA = 30 Atk. With a Steel Lance, he reaches 26 Atk, which should at least be enough for the lower leveled Myrms, if not all of them.

Accuracy-wise, Marcus at base level has 119 hit with the Silver Lance against a sword user (2*15 + 8/2 + 75 + 10); Lyn reaches about 110 hit (2*12.5 + 10/2 + 80) with the Mani Katti. Even with a Steel Lance, Marcus is still slightly more accurate (114 hit) than Lyn.

Dodge-tanking isn't really a viable strategy against sword users - even the Steel Sword Myrm reaches 97 hit against Lyn's 38-40 avoid (at level 10), so that's still 37 disp.hit if Lyn stands in a forest and 57 if she doesn't. I won't even bother calculating the raw durability of Marcus vs. Lyn - but I'd like to mention that Marcus has 30 avoid at base, which becomes 40 thanks to WTA. Also, if he one-shots on player phase, he doesn't take a counter anyway.

Her effective damage against the Cavs is obviously nice, but Marcus easily one-rounds them, as well, so it's not really a point in her favour at this point.

--

TL;DR: Doubling is nice and all, but "as soon as [Lyn] joins", her offense barely catches up to Marcus' if she doubles and he doesn't (same against cavs/knights). Otherwise, Marcus'  offense is still vastly superior to Lyn's, not to mention that he completly outclasses her defensively, has good 1-2 ranged options, more movement, and Canto.

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2 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

Lyn's average Spd coming out of LHM: 12

Marcus' base Spd: 11

Not sure if trolling...

Which is irrelevant for the most part.

Which only come during a point where you have more units to pick up the slack, and where a single unit isn't worth much.

So does Marcus, who doesn't really need them outside of bosses.

So can Marcus, who has three things in regards to this that Lyn doesn't: Lances, Axes, and a higher Str stat.

Given how little Lyn's speed would have increased by then, I have no reason not to consider this statement a blatant lie.

They're "good enough" to allow him to maintain relevance throughout the game. And how many times must you be told that 15 Spd doubles most enemies in the game? Or that he helps prevent EXP overflow when you're killing a boss? Or that he should be killing bosses, period, since he gets a greater milage from boss EXP, given that it's inherently better to give 50-100 EXP to someone who otherwise gains 5 EXP per kill, than it is to give 100 EXP to someone who otherwise gains 30 EXP per kill. The latter has no issues gaining levels, to say the least. Stop pretending that isn't the case.

False. Both of them grow. You only don't see it with the latter because you sandbag him.

Which, given the pitiful AS on enemies, is false in regards to Marcus.

Which is irrelevant. 

But every time you are asked about this supposedly "clearly defined playstyle", you refuse to clarify. Which means that you're either willfully withholding information for the purposes of needlessly dragging out this discussion, or that you don't actually have a defined playstyle despite your claim.

Also, I see you decided to ignore my post. Why?

I didn't ignore your post though, what you are talking about?

I never troll. Lyn's average SPD out of LHM is 14 not 12. That would assume Lyn would be lv 6 rather than 9-10, which is usually what she is at by the end.

It's not irrelevant though. Hector becomes better and so does Lyn, is a win-win situation. Same thing if you decide to pick Kent or Florina as supports instead. Hector's and Florina's in particular are fast enough.

If a single unit isn't worth much, then Marcus clearly isn't worth even that, considering his growths and averages.

Marcus doesn't however as it takes many more item slots to have all of them. While Lyn only needs two. She also can double with them, while slayer weapons are much heavier, specially the horseslayer and heavyspear.

And? Lyn can double more often and has bows, as well as having a better STR growth which reaches his STR level upon promotion, specially since he's stuck with 15 STR for a long while. I give him 17 STR at best if he gets lucky with his growths, by the time Lyn reaches Blade Lord, at which point her STR is only a couple of STR points less than him and being able to double way more often.

How is little? Please, we are talking about 16 SPD. You are not using her at all if she doesn't have that amount later on the road. Blatant lie my foot.

They aren't good enough. If he had the DEF to make up for his lack of SPD, that would be one thing, but between his slow experience gain and mediocre growths, He's not good enough, the more stats the better, and Marcus isn't getting enough. And I would never give him any boss experience, that should go to Hector, Lyn, Kent and the like, they deserve the experience more, since they grow more.

I don't sandbag him, I use him as he was intended to be used. It takes forever to reap the rewards of having him level when Kent is already about his equal by lv 15, thanks to dracoshield.

The only enemies with pitiful AS are Knights and Druids. Everything else usually has enough to avoid Marcus doubling later on the road, specially after chapter 20, which is when I bench him.

What I'm supposed to clarify? I've already presented some videos. What else I'm supposing to be saying about it?

Edited by DiogoJorge

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14 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

 

I never troll. Lyn's average SPD out of LHM is 14 not 12. That would assume Lyn would be lv 6 rather than 9-10, which is usually what she is at by the end

Well she would usually get that around level 10. However, as sort of established before, unless you're going out of your way to gain levels for her she won't reach that. But even then, that's a bit shaky to argue off of due to how subjective that could be (unless you're playing efficiently).

Edited by Jerry Kuma

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20 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Hector's and Florina's in particular are fast enough.

It's funny how obvious some of your false claims are :]

Hector/Florina takes 37 turns to get to C, and then 2x 40 turns to get to B and A. That's basically standard speed - there are a couple that take twice as long, but also quite a few that grow 50% faster (mostly but not exclusively between characters with some kind of in-story connection, like Eliwood/Hector, Priscilla/Raven, or Rebecca/Dart/Wil) and some that even grow twice as fast as Hector/Florina (if I don't miss anything, those are Lyn/Rath, Guy/Rath, Karla/Bartre, Lyn/Florina, Florina/Fiora, Florina/Ninian, and Isadora/Harken - actually more than I remembered). Eliwood/Ninian even grows 2.5 times faster than Hector Florina.

Learn to fact-check. It's not that hard.

20 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

I don't sandbag him, I use him as he was intended to be used.

Did your uncle at Nintendo tell you how Marcus was "intended to be used"?

Edited by ping

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9 minutes ago, ping said:

It's funny how obvious some of your false claims are :]

Hector/Florina takes 37 turns to get to C, and then 2x 40 turns to get to B and A. That's basically standard speed - there are a couple that take twice as long, but also quite a few that grow 50% faster (mostly but not exclusively between characters with some kind of in-story connection, like Eliwood/Hector, Priscilla/Raven, or Rebecca/Dart/Wil) and some that even grow twice as fast as Hector/Florina (if I don't miss anything, those are Lyn/Rath, Guy/Rath, Karla/Bartre, Lyn/Florina, Florina/Fiora, Florina/Ninian, and Isadora/Harken - actually more than I remembered). Eliwood/Ninian even grows 2.5 times faster than Hector Florina.

Learn to fact-check. It's not that hard.

Did your uncle at Nintendo tell you how he was "intended to be used"?

 

They aren't obvious though, since they aren't false.

37 turns is simple enough, considering that you have more than 20 chapters to go after Lyn, Hector and Florina come together in the same party. Hector is already C rank with Lyn by the end of Chapter 19x.

I did fact check and even put it into pratice. Hector is C ranking Lyn by the end of chapter 19x. That's only 4 chapters after they grouped, and that's including chapter 18 where I benched Lyn to give Raven a chance to gain some extra levels by doing Lyn's share of the work. Considering that there are still more than 12 chapters to go, she will build a solid support chain there.

Eliwood and Ninian's grow faster, but has less use, since Ninian isn't a fightning unit, thus receives a bonus that is virtually useless to her, meaning that only Eliwood benefits, thus being inferior to Hector's and Lyn's which benefit both.

 

I have no such uncle, what are you spouting now? Marcus is a Jagen, with slightly better bases than most, but his average stats aren't good enough for later on. I have around 8-12 deployment slots in later chapters and I have at least 12 units better than Marcus that have to be used. It doesn't get any simpler than that, specially since Pent tanks better than Marcus does and Hector is better than either at that point(a mage tanks better than a Paladin, let that sink in.)

Edited by DiogoJorge

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1 minute ago, DiogoJorge said:

They aren't obvious though, since they aren't false.

Buuuuullshiiiiiiit! :lol::lol::lol:

Here, I'll help you. Hector/Florina is NOT a particularly fast support. It is of average speed and there are, in fact, more faster than slower supports compared to it - a quick Ctrl+F tells me that there are: 

  • 23 pairs that grow at +1/turn
  • 49 pairs that grow at +2/turn (including Hector/Florina)
  • 34 pairs that grow at +3/turn
  • 7 pairs that grow at +4/turn
  • 1 pair that grows at +5/turn

Sure, it's still a valid pairing because you can start grinding it pretty early (unlike, say, Karla/Karel, which grows at the same speed), but both Hector and Florina have  support options that they can start just as early and that grow faster - Eliwood, Lyn, and Matthiew for Hector (and Oswin, whose support grows as fast as Florina's and who joins earlier than her) and Lyn for Florina (which is an instand C support and only takes 40 turns to get to A). Florina also got both her sisters who might join later, but both their supports grow much faster than Hector's (+4 for Fiora and +3 for Farina, and both of them start fairly close to a C rank).

Learn to factcheck. It's not that hard and it prevents you from making an ass out of yourself.

13 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

I have no such uncle, what are you spouting now? Marcus is a Jagen, with slightly better bases than most, but his average stats aren't good enough for later on. I have around 8-12 deployment slots in later chapters and I have at least 12 units better than Marcus than have to be used. It doesn't get any simpler than that, specially since Pent tanks better than Marcus does and Hector is better than either at that point(a mage tanks better than a Paladin, let that sink in.)

As long as you assume that you know how the game is "supposed" to be played, I will make fun of that assumption.

Pent doesn't tank as good as Marcus did in the first half of the game. The concept of "stats relative to enemy" is not that difficult.

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13 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

1. As soon she joins she's already doubling more enemies than Marcus can, she also has better supports than him. She can double enemies that Marcus can't, has acess to many effective weapons which cover knights, cavaliers, wyverns and pegasus. She can use Silver Sword or Steel sword for pretty much everything else and helps Hector become even more powerfull than he already is.

2. Sure, there quite a some knights, specially cavaliers she can double to death due to having around 10 STR by the time of Dread Isle. Which Marcus can't with his 11 SPD. Not to mention he has poor growths so the experience goes to waste on him.

3. Lyn grows, while Marcus doesn't. Lyn doubles while Marcus doesn't. Lyn supports while Marcus doesn't.

4. No it's not. it's true. Since it it doesn't take personal experience to tell that Lyn has a average STR of 10 by lv 15. I have a clearly defined playstyle in which Lyn plays more effectively than the units I list below her though, so I have an argument no matter what you say.

Thank you for responding. I appreciate you taking the time to try and explain yourself, regardless of the quality of your response.

 

1. Assuming you play Lyn mode or assuming you level her to a particular point during Lyn mode? And what does this doubling do for in terms of benchmarks (2RKO to 1RKO) that Marcus cannot do? Are you trying to argue that her access to the Mani Katti is better for combat than Marcus's access to 1-2 range weapons for his entire career?

2. Then give us the numbers where a perfectly average Lyn outperforms a perfectly average Marcus at the Dread Isle and why that matters for any playstyle.

3. Despite growing she still falls short of him in terms of combat for a majority of the game, something you have yet to disprove. And if you're using supports as a meaningful metric then you need to qualify exactly why they raise her so far above units like Marcus.

4. Hop off that high horse, you've stil dodged half of my question as you've done everytime this is asked. Explain why your playstyle raises Lyn above Marcus, don't just tell us it does. Yes we know she doubles, and that she builds supports, but you need to explain why those matter more than Marcus's superior base stats, higher movement, 1-2 range weapons from start to finish, and much greater durability. Your videos are one part of your explanation, give us the other and clearly explain your playstyle so we can stop arguing around your refusal to clarify your statements or respond to specific critiques.

Edited by gjuptonv

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@DiogoJorge Please respond to me bruh. Play FE7 HHM without using Marcus and use a tactic that isn't turtling or RNG manipulation and then tell me how it goes. If you use him as much as any other unit you will see that he is a good unit. 
Regarding every comment you've made about Lyn being awesome, she is not if you play the game on HHM she will not be so good, the enemies she spposedly excels at doubling that others not are some of the most accurate on HHM so her dodgetanking isnt as reliable and also means she has a higher chance of dying, yes in the end she is super powerful but didn't you say that earlygame is as important as midgame and midgame as important as endgame? Why are you forgetting her weak start?

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15 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

 

They aren't obvious though, since they aren't false.

37 turns is simple enough, considering that you have more than 20 chapters to go after Lyn, Hector and Florina come together in the same party. Hector is already C rank with Lyn by the end of Chapter 19x.

I did fact check and even put it into pratice. Hector is C ranking Lyn by the end of chapter 19x. That's only 4 chapters after they grouped, and that's including chapter 18 where I benched Lyn to give Raven a chance to gain some extra levels by doing Lyn's share of the work. Considering that there are still more than 12 chapters to go, she will build a solid support chain there.

Eliwood and Ninian's grow faster, but has less use, since Ninian isn't a fightning unit, thus receives a bonus that is virtually useless to her, meaning that only Eliwood benefits, thus being inferior to Hector's and Lyn's which benefit both.

 

I have no such uncle, what are you spouting now? Marcus is a Jagen, with slightly better bases than most, but his average stats aren't good enough for later on. I have around 8-12 deployment slots in later chapters and I have at least 12 units better than Marcus that have to be used. It doesn't get any simpler than that, specially since Pent tanks better than Marcus does and Hector is better than either at that point(a mage tanks better than a Paladin, let that sink in.)

stop cherrypicking arguments. If you intend to have an actual discussion, then do it in a reasonable manner and use the average stats and average HM enemy stats on SF.

Keep in mind that noone is forcing you to discuss this, but you seem to be reluctant to actually do anything to engage in a proper discussion and just seem to want to wank off to your Marcus hate. 

 

  • Marcus has been successfully used in 0% growths runs of HHM through to endgame. He is by no means bad at all. If a competant player can do this, then on standard HHM, Marcus is pretty much your best unit until you get promoted fliers/sain.
  • Lyn is ok if you want to use her. Not the best, but very much usable.
  • Hector is a good lord, but he's not as monstrous as people make him out to be due to his long promotion wait time. 

 

I mean if we're going to go on the personal experience bandwagon, then I've consistently had Dorcases and Bartres that have gotten ridiculously blessed. My most recent Dorcas his 18 speed at 15/5 with only one speedwings! This means he doubles/avoids being doubled by almost everything in HHM. So based on my personal experience, Dorcas>Guy because 1-2 range is bitchin and popping out of LHM with 8 speed makes you a MONSTER.

 

But personal experience means nothing. Dorcas is usable, but his averages kinda blow in terms of speed. I'd totally take him over mooks like Guy, Rebecca, or Wil since he can actually 1-3HKO shit consistently. 

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2 hours ago, Mister Rogers said:

stop cherrypicking arguments. If you intend to have an actual discussion, then do it in a reasonable manner and use the average stats and average HM enemy stats on SF.

Keep in mind that noone is forcing you to discuss this, but you seem to be reluctant to actually do anything to engage in a proper discussion and just seem to want to wank off to your Marcus hate. 

 

  • Marcus has been successfully used in 0% growths runs of HHM through to endgame. He is by no means bad at all. If a competant player can do this, then on standard HHM, Marcus is pretty much your best unit until you get promoted fliers/sain.
  • Lyn is ok if you want to use her. Not the best, but very much usable.
  • Hector is a good lord, but he's not as monstrous as people make him out to be due to his long promotion wait time. 

 

I mean if we're going to go on the personal experience bandwagon, then I've consistently had Dorcases and Bartres that have gotten ridiculously blessed. My most recent Dorcas his 18 speed at 15/5 with only one speedwings! This means he doubles/avoids being doubled by almost everything in HHM. So based on my personal experience, Dorcas>Guy because 1-2 range is bitchin and popping out of LHM with 8 speed makes you a MONSTER.

 

But personal experience means nothing. Dorcas is usable, but his averages kinda blow in terms of speed. I'd totally take him over mooks like Guy, Rebecca, or Wil since he can actually 1-3HKO shit consistently. 

I'm not cherrypicking, I'm just stating how it is, why is that worth all this hostilty from the people in this topic? I did it in a reasonable manner, then  certain people wich won't name that start go hostile for no reason. Also, I'm using average stats to determine both units worth, that's precisely why I bench Marcus.

I don't hate Marcus, he's just not all that, but people keep saying that he's the best unit despite him having little to show for it.

- Any premoted-promoted unit can be good if you force growth units to suck through a 0% growth run, why not a 0 personal base run then to justify using growth units instead? I never said that he was bad, I already stated before that he was B rank material. I'm pretty sure one doing so is a competent player, despite the boring experience of playing a game whitout growths, but how does that help me, I gain nothing by leveling in most cases, so I would be just handicapping myself so that most pre-promotes have an excuse to be used. Considering that Kent promotes around chapter 22 and that he has Marcus stats or higher by chapter 20, it's a good thing that I benched Marcus then. 

- You said yourself that Marcus somehow has good stats for the game, and yet Hector doesn't because he doesn't promote right away? He has 36 HP, 18 STR and 18 DEF. Marcus can't compete with that, specially since he also has 12 SPD. Since both steal experience at that point, might as well use Hector instead, since Kent and/or Sain already can do what Marcus does better. Hector at least can soften enemies and avoid doubling via a heavier axe.

I'm not using just personal experience, I'm doing what is best for the best unit in the game and another good unit, support growths aren't random like stat growths, so PEMN doesn't apply there. If I can do it, then anyone can do it.

Guy can double, same for Rebecca and even Wil. Dorcas STR isn't high enough to cause more damage than a doubling unit later on the road, also has poorer growths and as a result, experience is better off being gained by those. Also speedwings are better off being given to Hector.

 

Edited by DiogoJorge

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9 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

@DiogoJorge Please respond to me bruh. Play FE7 HHM without using Marcus and use a tactic that isn't turtling or RNG manipulation and then tell me how it goes. If you use him as much as any other unit you will see that he is a good unit. 
Regarding every comment you've made about Lyn being awesome, she is not if you play the game on HHM she will not be so good, the enemies she spposedly excels at doubling that others not are some of the most accurate on HHM so her dodgetanking isnt as reliable and also means she has a higher chance of dying, yes in the end she is super powerful but didn't you say that earlygame is as important as midgame and midgame as important as endgame? Why are you forgetting her weak start?

I use Marcus though, I don't manipulate RNG or turtle. On contrary, I've played this game for over a decade, and can say that he's not good enough for me. I once had a Kent with SPD screwed at 15 SPD and he became a hindrance, I expect the same from Marcus if 15 SPD is the best he can do at max level.

She is good, I played the game on HHM and she is great, good supports, helps killing bosses faster, can dodgetank against axe and sword users, can demolish wyverns, knights and cavaliers. She doesn't need to dodgetank those, since she can be healed right after if they use lances.

What weak start? She has HP 22 (this whitout including seraph robe from her mode which she deserves the most), 8 STR, 14 SPD and 4 DEF. That's a decent start for her, considering that there are no shortage of enemies she can hurt badly. Specially since she gets to use the Silver Sword sooner than most.

Edited by DiogoJorge

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11 hours ago, gjuptonv said:

Thank you for responding. I appreciate you taking the time to try and explain yourself, regardless of the quality of your response.

 

1. Assuming you play Lyn mode or assuming you level her to a particular point during Lyn mode? And what does this doubling do for in terms of benchmarks (2RKO to 1RKO) that Marcus cannot do? Are you trying to argue that her access to the Mani Katti is better for combat than Marcus's access to 1-2 range weapons for his entire career?

2. Then give us the numbers where a perfectly average Lyn outperforms a perfectly average Marcus at the Dread Isle and why that matters for any playstyle.

3. Despite growing she still falls short of him in terms of combat for a majority of the game, something you have yet to disprove. And if you're using supports as a meaningful metric then you need to qualify exactly why they raise her so far above units like Marcus.

4. Hop off that high horse, you've stil dodged half of my question as you've done everytime this is asked. Explain why your playstyle raises Lyn above Marcus, don't just tell us it does. Yes we know she doubles, and that she builds supports, but you need to explain why those matter more than Marcus's superior base stats, higher movement, 1-2 range weapons from start to finish, and much greater durability. Your videos are one part of your explanation, give us the other and clearly explain your playstyle so we can stop arguing around your refusal to clarify your statements or respond to specific critiques.

I didn't dodge it, I thought it was propely explained. Lyn is faster, better at dodgetanking, has better supports, a good personal weapon that provides with an advantage against knights and cavalier types. Why those matter? Because she has actual growths, meaning that unlike Marcus, she will be good from the get-go and keep being good and only get better as she levels, while Marcus will keep being more of the same and become an hindrance for lategame. Can he be put to use? Yes, do  you really want to? No, there many units that take priority over Marcus by mid and lategame for deployment.

Higher movement matters little once all villages and chests are secured, so she doesn't need more move (5-6 is good enough for her) when I already have Kent and/or Sain doing those chores. 1-2 range weapons cause less damage, unless the enemies are mages or archers, chances are that it won't be enough to kill them, thus forcing you to kill them on player phase with accurate 1 range weapons anyway. I already stated before, but the only chapters where they excell is the boat chapter due to a large enough amount of mages and due to one's starting position forcing you to do rely on them more. Otherwise, they are just there to soften up, when a Steel or Silver Sword during player phase acomplishes the same result, also, there aren't many enemies that use those, so you can just deal with a good deal of them using your 1 range weapons instead.

Edited by DiogoJorge

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I'll propose an thought experiment (I don't expect anyone to play this game four times just for the sake of an argument):

  1. Play through HHM and do not use Marcus at all. Not to delete earlygame threats, not to chip against bosses or stronger generics, not to save the northern chests in ch.17, not to bodyblock, not to rescue, not to visit villages. Not. At. All.
  2. Play through HHM and do not use Lyn at all.
  3. Play through HHM and do not use Eliwood at all.
  4. Play through HHM and do not use Hector at all. (excluding chapter 11)

Which playthrough will be the most difficult? Which playthrough will take the longest? Basically, whose absense is the most impactful?

On my current ranked run, I've been using Marcus sparingly because XP rank (which still puts him at 59B/37W after chapter 17 - I managed 17x-19 without him, though), haven't used Lyn at all (except for 3 battles in her joining chapter), while Eliwood has been contributing until chapter 15.

The lack of Marcus was noticeable every single chapter - and in chapters 16 and 17, I couldn't even avoid relying on him more heavily for the sake of reaching a reasonable turncount (and getting the northern chests in Lyn's castle. I wonder how you're supposed to do that without him) - he gained 103 XP until chapter 15 and 157 in just those two chapters, to give a bit of perspective. It's also worth noting that he would still have been incredibly valuable in 17x, 18, 19, and 19x (I don't think he'll make a comeback here), if it wasn't for the XP rank.

The lack of Lyn and Eliwood (he is temporarily benched since ch.16) didn't matter at all. I didn't have a single instance where I thought, "Gee, I wish I had fielded Eliwood/Lyn!". There were a couple situations where they would have done fine, but very consistently, the units that I fielded instead were just as good as they were.

I will say that Hector has been very important - he is a very good earlygame unit, after all - but I will also say that quite often, I only used him instead of Marcus because of the XP rank.

But I guess I'm not playing like I'm supposed to, then?

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3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I didn't dodge it, I thought it was propely explained. Lyn is faster, better at dodgetanking, has better supports, a good personal weapon that provides with an advantage against knights and cavalier types.

If everyone here is telling you that you haven't properly explained yourself then you should consider taking that advice to heart. And alright we'll go through this again.

- what does Lyn being faster do in terms of changing any meaningful benchmarks?

- prove how her dodgetanking makes her a more reliable unit than Marcus in terms of survivability

- demonstrate why her supports matter, not just that they exist

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Because she has actual growths, meaning that unlike Marcus, she will be good from the get-go and keep being good and only get better as she levels, while Marcus will keep being more of the same and become an hindrance for lategame. Can he be put to use? Yes, do  you really want to? No, there many units that take priority over Marcus by mid and lategame for deployment.

- I'm not sure if I should take she's a better unit from the get-go seriously, but I'll ask anyways; do you seriously believe that Lyn's supports and prf weapons make her more useful than Marcus -assuming average stats- immediately after she joins?

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Higher movement matters little once all villages and chests are secured, so she doesn't need more move (5-6 is good enough for her) when I already have Kent and/or Sain doing those chores.

- by saying you use Sain and Kent for those chores you're acknowledging that higher movement is useful, at the very least theirs, unless you have a competent way to defend only using those two it naturally follows that Marcus is at least as useful as those two due to his ability to do those chores as well or better from his join time until they catch up in average stats

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

1-2 range weapons cause less damage, unless the enemies are mages or archers, chances are that it won't be enough to kill them, thus forcing you to kill them on player phase with accurate 1 range weapons anyway

- and despite that Marcus is still able to ORKO & 2RKO a plethora of enemies from his join time to the endgame

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I already stated before

I'm going to stop you right there. Not eveyrthing you say is meaningful, nor is it correct because you think it is. No one here has any reason to give your opinion more weight than their own, but you can combat that by throughly responding to critiques and explaining exactly what your defenses are. Rather than saying "If trained Lyn is faster than Marcus", considering saying "Lyn's ability ro double when combined with her Mani Katti can be situationally useful, especially so if Marcus is busy with villages and chests. Here are a few examples of this..." Sure that's a poor argument, but it's still better than most of the one's you've levied thus far.

This quote applies to you, try to consider it before you respond.

"If everywhere smells like shit, maybe it's time to check your own shoes"

Edited by gjuptonv

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Regarding the Mani Katti, it has the exact same might as silver lance when facing weapon disadvantage (this is most common since you know most knights/cavs use lances), +1 might when facing weapon triangle neutrality (fairly rare), and +2 might when facing Weapon triangle advantage (only relevant for 2 chapters, those being Ch. 22 and Ch.31). Not exactly that much better. Crit exists, sure, but it’s not reliable, so is irrelevant when you can use more reliable options.

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6 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I'm not cherrypicking, I'm just stating how it is, why is that worth all this hostilty from the people in this topic? I did it in a reasonable manner, then  certain people wich won't name that start go hostile for no reason. Also, I'm using average stats to determine both units worth, that's precisely why I bench Marcus.

I don't hate Marcus, he's just not all that, but people keep saying that he's the best unit despite him having little to show for it.

- Any premoted-promoted unit can be good if you force growth units to suck through a 0% growth run, why not a 0 personal base run then to justify using growth units instead? I never said that he was bad, I already stated before that he was B rank material. I'm pretty sure one doing so is a competent player, despite the boring experience of playing a game whitout growths, but how does that help me, I gain nothing by leveling in most cases, so I would be just handicapping myself so that most pre-promotes have an excuse to be used. Considering that Kent promotes around chapter 22 and that he has Marcus stats or higher by chapter 20, it's a good thing that I benched Marcus then. 

- You said yourself that Marcus somehow has good stats for the game, and yet Hector doesn't because he doesn't promote right away? He has 36 HP, 18 STR and 18 DEF. Marcus can't compete with that, specially since he also has 12 SPD. Since both steal experience at that point, might as well use Hector instead, since Kent and/or Sain already can do what Marcus does better. Hector at least can soften enemies and avoid doubling via a heavier axe.

I'm not using just personal experience, I'm doing what is best for the best unit in the game and another good unit, support growths aren't random like stat growths, so PEMN doesn't apply there. If I can do it, then anyone can do it.

Guy can double, same for Rebecca and even Wil. Dorcas STR isn't high enough to cause more damage than a doubling unit later on the road, also has poorer growths and as a result, experience is better off being gained by those. Also speedwings are better off being given to Hector.

 

numbers? proof?

 

lmao the player doing the 0% growths run was dondon.  There's absolutely no reason why marcus should be shafted. Also a 0% bases run would be relient on weapon ranks early on. Guess who's got the silver lance?

 

 

also you might want to learn how to detect sarcasm.

Edited by Mister Rogers

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6 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I'm not using just personal experience, I'm doing what is best for the best unit in the game and another good unit, support growths aren't random like stat growths, so PEMN doesn't apply there. If I can do it, then anyone can do it.

I fail to see how supports are relevant when most of them are pretty slow to build, and some of the exceptions have move gaps (e.g. Lyn/Florina).

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5 hours ago, ping said:

I'll propose an thought experiment (I don't expect anyone to play this game four times just for the sake of an argument):

  1. Play through HHM and do not use Marcus at all. Not to delete earlygame threats, not to chip against bosses or stronger generics, not to save the northern chests in ch.17, not to bodyblock, not to rescue, not to visit villages. Not. At. All.
  2. Play through HHM and do not use Lyn at all.
  3. Play through HHM and do not use Eliwood at all.
  4. Play through HHM and do not use Hector at all. (excluding chapter 11)

Which playthrough will be the most difficult? Which playthrough will take the longest? Basically, whose absense is the most impactful?

1 will be difficult. 2, 3, and 4 will all largely feel like any other playthrough. 4 might be a bit tougher in Ch 12, though, just due to positioning and initial enemies. And obviously Ch 30 might be awkward since Hector is one of only two deployable units.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I fail to see how supports are relevant when most of them are pretty slow to build, and some of the exceptions have move gaps (e.g. Lyn/Florina).

Sigh...

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6 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I use Marcus though, I don't manipulate RNG or turtle. On contrary, I've played this game for over a decade, and can say that he's not good enough for me. I once had a Kent with SPD screwed at 15 SPD and he became a hindrance, I expect the same from Marcus if 15 SPD is the best he can do at max level.

She is good, I played the game on HHM and she is great, good supports, helps killing bosses faster, can dodgetank against axe and sword users, can demolish wyverns, knights and cavaliers. She doesn't need to dodgetank those, since she can be healed right after if they use lances.

What weak start? She has HP 22 (this whitout including seraph robe from her mode which she deserves the most), 8 STR, 14 SPD and 4 DEF. That's a decent start for her, considering that there are no shortage of enemies she can hurt badly. Specially since she gets to use the Silver Sword sooner than most.

Marcus at max level 20 does have 15 speed however enemies in FE7 are slow as hell and also most of them are slowed down by Steel lances also remember that Marcus has a great start with 11 Speed he comes at a time when none of your units are doubling making him extremely useful for disposing of enemies in emergencies or reducing the enemies quantity at the time when you and the enemies are alike in stats not in growths  but in bases and stop acting like bases don't matter. 
Watch this at 3:14.


At what point does she do that? Level 20/20? Maybe giving her stat boosters better used on others? The angelic robe doesn't better go to her it should go to someone who ill fight a lot like Sain who has better base Def than her and that matters, Will probably fight a lot if you give him more HP he will survive more and be more useful, if a unit needs a stat booster to be good then it isnt good because we would only be caring about their potential rather than the start.

This is purely wroooong. Her base HP is 16 and without Lyn mode she has 18, where does that 22 come from? By feeding her kills until she gets to level 10 in Lyns mode and neglecting every other person some levels? But alright so she has 22 HP at Level 10 and she has 7 strength by then so you were blessed by then, 8 Str at level 10 is really bad nonetheless 14 Speed is good I'll give you that and I cant believe you're saying "4 DEf at level 10! Yay!!111! (She actually has 3 def then so why are you giving her one more point to her defense?) when other units like Sain at level 10 has  26 HP, 13 strength but 9 speed or lets look at kent who has at level 10 has 27 HP, 9 STR and 11 Speed  in fact everything Lyn does Sain and kent can do and even if Lyn doubles an enemy the others don't she still does little damage that the others do in one single hit.

So You also say that she gets Silver Swords way earlier and assuming she gets A rank at level 12 She wil be slowed down by 3 Making her 15 Speed by then go down to 12 and if she reached level 12 at like Dread Isle (because if she joins at level 10 then she woul gain Exp slowly)with 12 speed then she would be only helping her not be doubled by the boss who you an easily dispose of anyways with any other better tank plus at level 12 Kent has 11 Speed which means theres really no difference in what she does and doesnt double and Sain has 10 Speed by now which will mean kent and Lyn will double some other things he doesn't. So really Lyn isn't the only unit able to double. Then we have another really fast unit who starts at better base Speed than Lyn does and for all that grind we did for her Raven is nearly as good. Give him 3 levels following his recruitment chapter and bam! He now has 14 Speed at Level 8 which is what she had at level 10, That's not all, if he were to use the Silver Sword somehow at this time he wouldn't be weighed down by it at all, he also has higher Strength than she does so Lyn using a Silver Sword will do just as much damage as Raven using a Steel Sword because of his higher Strength and also since he might double some enemies weighed-down-Lyn can't. He also has 8 Str when he joins which is more than your Level 10 Lyn and equal to a Level 11 Lyn and it even grows to 9 which Lyn's doesn't at level 12. Finally you only have one Silver Sword for a long part of the game so keep it a little bit, use i whenyou need to of course, but keep it so Raven uses it because he makes better use of it.

Finally let's compare Lyn to her Rival, Eliwood. Eliwood is usually considered a boo but at least his promotion gives him Lances at promotion which allows him to attack at range cheaply with Javelins, which Lyn does but in bows at the expense of her 1 range which everyone already explained a billion times why being locked to 2 range is bad. 

At level 12 Let's compare both of their stats. But first let me just say that Eliwood starts with C in swords as opposed to Lyn's D and if we use eliwood and lyn in their modes then by the time Lyn rejoins in E/HHM in which I will suppose she has B in swords then Eliwood will also have B in swords.

Eliwood          Lyn
HP: 26            HP: 23           So Eliwood has better durability it seems.
Str: 9               Str: 8              Eliwood also has better muscles.
Skl: 10             Skl: 13          That 3 more skill means 6% more hit which doesnt matter because swords are really accurate meanin everyone will be accurate with them
Spd: 11           Spd: 15          Thats a good thing she has but Lyn has 12 AS with the Silver sword while Eliwood has 10 AS with it so that lowers Lyn advantage by a bit
Luck: 12         Luck: 11         Eliwood surpasses her in Luck but really that stat doesn't matter I'll give you that.
Def: 8             Def: 4              So Eliwood is more durable and that matters since their def are more like 7 and 3 respectively since most enemies use lances.
Res: 3            Res: 3             Yeah this is Resistance none of them excel at it but FE7 isn't very mage heavy.
Con: 7           Con: 5             I already explained Silvers but lets talk Steels since they are more common. Eliwood AS becomes 8 and Lyn's becomes 10, Still more but at Dread Isle that really                                                     only means none of them double many things in fact with Silvers someone like Kent laughs at Lyn's con (secretly with sain or else he might get demoted)

So yeah Lyn has several issues but I can continue this oh I'm not done!

We can compare her now to a Level 12 Kent who we will suppose also has B in swords when he rejoins since his base rank is also D

Kent             Lyn
HP: 29          HP: 23:         So kent Is even more durable but well get to Def in a little bit.
Str: 10          Str: 8             Stronger by 2 points he also has high speed so this is great.
Skl: 11          Skl: 13          Oh no! Lyn is more accurate by 4%!
Spd: 11        Spd: 15         Lets see how this is with silvers. Kent will have 11 AS with them and Lyn will have 12 with them so one more point doesn't really matter.
Luck: 4       Luck: 11         This results in a 3% more accuracy and 3 more points of evade which really doesnt matter when attacks bounce off you.
Def: 7          Def: 4             His Def is lower than Eliwood but since most enemies use lances and he can too his Def is like 7 while Lyn's is like 3
Res: 3         Res: 3             Again doesn't really matter.
Con: 9         Con: 5            Lets use Steels now.  Kent has 10 AS and Lyn has 10 AS. So the same AS.
Mov: 7        Mov: 5           Mov is very important he also has semi-canto and also if Kent was in danger it would be easier for him to escape than for Lyn.

So Kent has proven himself to be more useful and better than Lyn.

So you see that Lyn really doesn't perform much better than everyone else and the enemies that she is doubling that others dont she is doing little damage to them, especially in HHM siince their Defenses are more busted.

Have you watched Mekkkah's video analysis on Lyn? Yes I and the others might use the name a lot but you should really watch has it will explain her low durability issues and problems in HHM.

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2 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Have you watched Mekkkah's video analysis on Lyn? Yes I and the others might use the name a lot but you should really watch has it will explain her low durability issues and problems in HHM.

In the other thread about optimal unit amounts in FE7 it was mentioned that this guy has defended Lyn with the same fervor and zeal on Mekkkah's videos as he has here. If you read the comments on those videos his arguments are largely the same, if not a bit more disjointed considering the YouTube comments section.

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1 minute ago, gjuptonv said:

In the other thread about optimal unit amounts in FE7 it was mentioned that this guy has defended Lyn with the same fervor and zeal on Mekkkah's videos as he has here. If you read the comments on those videos his arguments are largely the same, if not a bit more disjointed considering the YouTube comments section.

Yeah I heard that I just wanted to make sure

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