Jump to content

Is Lyn better than Marcus/is Marcus good/ is Lyn good


gjuptonv
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 366
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

On 14/07/2018 at 12:30 PM, ping said:

I'll propose an thought experiment (I don't expect anyone to play this game four times just for the sake of an argument):

  1. Play through HHM and do not use Marcus at all. Not to delete earlygame threats, not to chip against bosses or stronger generics, not to save the northern chests in ch.17, not to bodyblock, not to rescue, not to visit villages. Not. At. All.
  2. Play through HHM and do not use Lyn at all.
  3. Play through HHM and do not use Eliwood at all.
  4. Play through HHM and do not use Hector at all. (excluding chapter 11)

Which playthrough will be the most difficult? Which playthrough will take the longest? Basically, whose absense is the most impactful?

On my current ranked run, I've been using Marcus sparingly because XP rank (which still puts him at 59B/37W after chapter 17 - I managed 17x-19 without him, though), haven't used Lyn at all (except for 3 battles in her joining chapter), while Eliwood has been contributing until chapter 15.

The lack of Marcus was noticeable every single chapter - and in chapters 16 and 17, I couldn't even avoid relying on him more heavily for the sake of reaching a reasonable turncount (and getting the northern chests in Lyn's castle. I wonder how you're supposed to do that without him) - he gained 103 XP until chapter 15 and 157 in just those two chapters, to give a bit of perspective. It's also worth noting that he would still have been incredibly valuable in 17x, 18, 19, and 19x (I don't think he'll make a comeback here), if it wasn't for the XP rank.

The lack of Lyn and Eliwood (he is temporarily benched since ch.16) didn't matter at all. I didn't have a single instance where I thought, "Gee, I wish I had fielded Eliwood/Lyn!". There were a couple situations where they would have done fine, but very consistently, the units that I fielded instead were just as good as they were.

I will say that Hector has been very important - he is a very good earlygame unit, after all - but I will also say that quite often, I only used him instead of Marcus because of the XP rank.

But I guess I'm not playing like I'm supposed to, then?

1. I wouldn't do that, since it would take forever to play like that during early game. And I do need to have those items. It's possible to win whitout Marcus during early game but it means forfeiting some good items, like the Silver Sword in the process.

2. I wouldn't do that either, since Lyn is valuable for my strategies, great wyvern slaying, armored and mounted enemies. As well good bait against axemen and swordmen, javelins and mages as well if she uses bows instead.

3. That is possible and easy to do, Guy could take his place or Pent. 

4. That would be a serious waste of a good unit and tank, it would seriously diminish my strategies. Hector is usually the main frontliner, as he takes barely any damage from most physical enemies.

Hector's, that's for sure. 

As for Lyn, she is doubling more enemies with her horseslaying weapons, so she would be preferable over Marcus who would have to use the Longsword or Horslayer for that. The Longsword is weaker than the Mani Katti and the Horseslayer weights too much for Marcus to double with it. Same for the Halberd. Marcus can't support Hector either and grows less. So Lyn is preferable overall.

Marcus absense would only be notable in chapters 13x, 14, 15, 17, 19 and 19xx. Hector's would be notable pretty much every chapter where physical enemies lurk. which is almost all of them. As for Lyn, she proves to be quite usefull for most chapters, as there's no lack of wyverns, knights, cavaliers types as well axefighters she can destroy.

Hector is a good unit in virtually  all chapters, not just earlygame.

On 14/07/2018 at 1:34 PM, gjuptonv said:

If everyone here is telling you that you haven't properly explained yourself then you should consider taking that advice to heart. And alright we'll go through this again.

- what does Lyn being faster do in terms of changing any meaningful benchmarks?

- prove how her dodgetanking makes her a more reliable unit than Marcus in terms of survivability

- demonstrate why her supports matter, not just that they exist

- I'm not sure if I should take she's a better unit from the get-go seriously, but I'll ask anyways; do you seriously believe that Lyn's supports and prf weapons make her more useful than Marcus -assuming average stats- immediately after she joins?

- by saying you use Sain and Kent for those chores you're acknowledging that higher movement is useful, at the very least theirs, unless you have a competent way to defend only using those two it naturally follows that Marcus is at least as useful as those two due to his ability to do those chores as well or better from his join time until they catch up in average stats

- and despite that Marcus is still able to ORKO & 2RKO a plethora of enemies from his join time to the endgame

I'm going to stop you right there. Not eveyrthing you say is meaningful, nor is it correct because you think it is. No one here has any reason to give your opinion more weight than their own, but you can combat that by throughly responding to critiques and explaining exactly what your defenses are. Rather than saying "If trained Lyn is faster than Marcus", considering saying "Lyn's ability ro double when combined with her Mani Katti can be situationally useful, especially so if Marcus is busy with villages and chests. Here are a few examples of this..." Sure that's a poor argument, but it's still better than most of the one's you've levied thus far.

This quote applies to you, try to consider it before you respond.

"If everywhere smells like shit, maybe it's time to check your own shoes"

 

Then let's try this again then and see if the community can keep themselves from saying unecessary hostile things.

-Can double mercenaries, myrmidons, as well some of the faster bosses, she also dodgetanks better as a result due to having higher SPD. For instance Marcus can't double Teodore whitout forcing him to use Nosferatu first. Since Eclipse weights less despite being a siege tome. And you don't want him to use Nosferatu and prolong the fight further, you want to reach him while he still has Eclipses to use.

-That's quite simple, Marcus DEF doesn't grow, barely so, while Lyn receives a significant boost upon promotion, if she can reach at least 7 DEF, which she does easily upon promotion, than she's already tanking better than Marcus does by virtue of having a better HP growth and having considerably more SPD and LUK. Axefighters can't even reach 10 hit midgame against her, specially if they are using handaxes. At best their hitrate is 20% or so against her, while Marcus is usually 30% when dealing with axefighters while wielding a sword (more so if he has to use Hand Axes for some reason).

- At C rank Lyn and Hector both receive a boost of 5% to their critical, 5% to critical evasion and 2% to evasion. A B rank,  it becomes a 10% increase to their critical, 10% to critical evasion, 5% to evasion, 1 extra attack and 1 extra DEF, both benefit a lot from this, specially if either uses a killer weapon and engage in 1 range combat. At  A rank that's  15% boost to all the previously 10% stats and a 3 to both DEF and ATK. They reach this support rank around chapter 27 or so, making it worthy against the enemies in the later chapters. That's quite considerable even at C rank and it's obtainable as soon as chapter 19x or around that time.

- Not imediately, Marcus still has some uses before he goes to the bench. It's only past chapter 20 or so, that usually Lyn becomes better than him. As for my other statement, Lyn is good from the get-go, since she has good stats for chapter 16.

- It's usefull, for the sake of obtaining chests and villages and the ocasional ferry, but little else. Movement doesn't make up for mediocre battle stats, so obviously those with good stats are the ones who are better. Considering how fast they level, that's usually around chapter 20 or so when I usually bench Marcus. So his uses are a bit too limited for me to consider him anything but a B rank unit.

- He really doesn't. 11 SPD doesn't cut it, it didn't cut for me in the VoD when Kent has screwed with a 15 SPD stat, so I don't see how Marcus would in HHM.

Not really. My arguements have been sound enough, whatever others think, that's up to them.

No it really doesn't apply to me, since nothing smells to begin with.

Edited by DiogoJorge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

if you have actual, factual proof and evidence that using Marcus is a complete and utter detriment then come out with it.

 

If the community as a whole generally agrees that Marcus is the best fe7 unit, then chances are that he is indeed the best fe7 unit. He simply contributes far too much or any efficient playstyle. 

It's alright to not like Marcus or to not use him. But stop with this arrogant fucking bullshit about your playstyle being the only way to go. You're starting to sound like a 10 year old kid who'd beenreading the gamefaqs guides that say "Rebecca gets a 10/10" and "Don't use the jeigan".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Mister Rogers said:

if you have actual, factual proof and evidence that using Marcus is a complete and utter detriment then come out with it.

 

If the community as a whole generally agrees that Marcus is the best fe7 unit, then chances are that he is indeed the best fe7 unit. He simply contributes far too much or any efficient playstyle. 

It's alright to not like Marcus or to not use him. But stop with this arrogant fucking bullshit about your playstyle being the only way to go. You're starting to sound like a 10 year old kid who'd beenreading the gamefaqs guides that say "Rebecca gets a 10/10" and "Don't use the jeigan".

I never said that he's  a complete and utter detriment. Otherwise, I wouldn't even call him a B rank unit.

What the community thinks is not of my concern, when it comes to evaluating a unit, democracy has no place in it. If a majority jumps off a cliff, that doesn't make it any less questionable. His contributions aren't good enough to give him the title of best unit. The best unit is the one that has great stats and contributes everysingle chapter he is in significanlty, like Hector, who can still contribute even after reaching lv 20 and waiting for his promotion. If the community wants to claim that it's Marcus, be my guest, just as long as you don't expect much from his stats at least.

Keep your hostility to a minimum or none at all would be preferable, no words like "fucking" or "BS". I never said it's the only way to go, only one of the more preferables.

Gamefaqs honestly is not that much different from here to be honest,Other than the whole multiquote rule nuisance. Quite a few people who would claim Rebecca is bad due to their inability to use her propely.

Edited by DiogoJorge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

it's more to do with you constantly kicking up a fight and refusing to actually keep a consistent line of thought or to actually define a metric. It gets real frustrating when you continuously don't even follow your own train of logic in your arguments. 

Yes, it's possible to use unit X, but if you're sandbagging everything else to claim that unit X is better than most of the cast by using cherrypicked arguments then it doesn't hold up.

Yes, there's a way to use Rebecca/Lyn/etc., but people often talk about their use in efficiency or ease of training when discussing their use. Using Lyn is easy enough, but the issue has always been more of fe7 being an incredibly EP centric game.

but the thing is, you're kinda taking an authoritative tone on evaluating units without explaining the metric. If it's for ranked runs that want to guarantee an S rank overall, then yeah they're good enough.  If we're talking general LTC, strict LTC, or drafts with free lords/etc., then the metric becomes different as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/14/2018 at 11:47 AM, Florete said:

Sigh...

What? I see it as a valid issue when most of the supports are so goddamn slow. >_<

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

-Can double mercenaries, myrmidons, as well some of the faster bosses, she also dodgetanks better as a result due to having higher SPD. For instance Marcus can't double Teodore whitout forcing him to use Nosferatu first. Since Eclipse weights less despite being a siege tome. And you don't want him to use Nosferatu and prolong the fight further, you want to reach him while he still has Eclipses to use.

Except Marcus does better against them anyway because he shrugs them off, unlike Lyn, who actually feels it if she gets hit.

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

-That's quite simple, Marcus DEF doesn't grow, barely so, while Lyn receives a significant boost upon promotion, if she can reach at least 7 DEF, which she does easily upon promotion, than she's already tanking better than Marcus does by virtue of having a better HP growth and having considerably more SPD and LUK. Axefighters can't even reach 10 hit midgame against her, specially if they are using handaxes. At best their hitrate is 20% or so against her, while Marcus is usually 30% when dealing with axefighters while wielding a sword (more so if he has to use Hand Axes for some reason).

Lyn's Defence growth is all of 5% better than Marcus's. And second, she needs to be 20/7 just to match Marcus's base defense. Also, axefighters? Nice cherrypicking there.

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

- At C rank Lyn and Hector both receive a boost of 5% to their critical, 5% to critical evasion and 2% to evasion. A B rank,  it becomes a 10% increase to their critical, 10% to critical evasion, 5% to evasion, 1 extra attack and 1 extra DEF, both benefit a lot from this, specially if either uses a killer weapon and engage in 1 range combat. At  A rank that's  15% boost to all the previously 10% stats and a 3 to both DEF and ATK. They reach this support rank around chapter 27 or so, making it worthy against the enemies in the later chapters. That's quite considerable even at C rank and it's obtainable as soon as chapter 19x or around that time.

Which is a big if because the GBA support system requires tethering the units together before they can support. That is a massive inconvenience for obvious reasons.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

1. I wouldn't do that, since it would take forever to play like that during early game. And I do need to have those items. It's possible to win whitout Marcus during early game but it means forfeiting some good items, like the Silver Sword in the process.

2. I wouldn't do that either, since Lyn is valuable for my strategies, great wyvern slaying, armored and mounted enemies. As well good bait against axemen and swordmen, javelins and mages as well if she uses bows instead.

3. That is possible and easy to do, Guy could take his place or Pent. 

4. That would be a serious waste of a good unit and tank, it would seriously diminish my strategies. Hector is usually the main frontliner, as he takes barely any damage from most physical enemies.

Hector's, that's for sure. 

Please try to work with me here and just assume that you wouldn't use said units. How much difference would it make if other units would have to make up for the lack of [Marcus/Lyn/Eliwood/Hector]? Is it possible for other units to replace them without too much negative impact?

For example, what makes Lyn a better "bait against axemen and swordsmen" than Guy (who easily outtanks her on HHM and matches her offense even taking the Mani Katti into account) or Raven (do I even have to spell this one out?)?

I would assume that the "wyvern slaying" refers to her bow rank after promotion - what's the impact of using

  • Louise, who can use silver bows at base and is fast enough to double every wyvern rider (and, let's be real, the promoted ones as well. The two in 28x have 12 and 13 AS) in the game? To put some numbers here - base Louise has 38 Atk against flyers with a silver bow; Lyn matches that at 20/17 with a Steel Bow.
  • Pent, who makes up for the lack of effective damage by targeting the wyverns' lower Res stat? The difference between Def and Res on WR stays around 9 points quite consistently to make up for the lack of effective damage. Pent with a Thunder tome will deal 23 damage to a 3-Res Wyvern (i.e. 2HKO and one-round) with the added benefit of 1-2 range. If you promote one of the earlier magic users (Erk, Lucius, Canas), they will be able to one-round wyverns, as well, although Erk is kinda cutting it close to reach the necessary Mag.
  • Rath, who can easily be brought to B Bows in Lyn mode, so he can use the Brave Bow practically instantly? Of course, Wil and Rebecca (if you've been training them), will also be able to use high-ranked bows by the time Lyn promotes.
  • Hawkeye, whose 11 base speed is high enough to double quite a few wyvern riders (specifically Steel Lance Wyverns)? You need 30 Atk to 2HKO wyvern riders in 28x and Hawkeye reaches exactly that with a Steel Axe, thanks to the weapon triangle. Obviously, he's not as reliable as Lyn when it comes to killing that specific wyvern because 11 Spd is only sometimes enough if the Wyvern in question is not wielding Steel, but he is quite a bit better at wounding multiple wyverns per turn.
  • Geitz (funny that I would mention him, given the original question of the thread), who with a Steel Axe is basically a less bulky Hawkeye with one additional point of Spd (which is actually quite relevant against wyverns) who can also do what Rath does and Brave Bow a wyvern on PP, if needed.

These examples of Lyn's qualities demostrate why most people here consider her to be a mid- or low-tier unit: They are not unique to her. Her biggest feature is her PP combat against cavalry, but it's been discussed repeatedly why that isn't all that great - namely, because it's Player Phase combat and other units are able to make her redundant not by copying her, but by dishing out damage during the enemy phase so that Lyn's higher PP damage output isn't needed anymore. Her biggest claim to fame is probably Dragon's gate since the chokepoint-y map design makes it hard to counter more than a few of the enemy cavs and nomads and Marcus only doubles around half of the cavs (more if he procced Spd, which isn't that unlikely at this point, if you've been using him) and none of the nomads, so every bit of damage dealing is appreciated here.

2 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Keep your hostility to a minimum or none at all would be preferable, no words like "fucking" or "BS". I never said it's the only way to go, only one of the more preferables.

There's other ways to be offensive than to use strong language. Dishonesty (or just being misinformed) in one's arguments and ignoring factual evidence brought up against them (or dismiss that evidence without any substantial backing), at which point "misinformed" turns into "dishonest", too, can be seen as at least as disrespectul as swearwords.

Just take the Hector/Florina exchange:

-DJ: Hector/Florina is a fast support.
-me: No, it's not, its growth is complete average
-DJ: But it was fast enough for me!

That is disrespectful (also funny, considering that you claim not to base your arguments on personal experience alone) because you obviously didn't even take the time to inform yourself about the numbers I've brought up - you just went NO I KNOW BETTER and, when I provided even more numbers, just ignored them, probably using my rudeness as an excuse for doing so.

I'll be frank - it's not my intention to make you question your convictions. It's painfully clear that you "know" (and those are some big fucking airquotes) what's right and wrong and every evidence that you can't counter will just be conveniently overlooked. (Like the numbers that show Marcus' and Lyn's offense against the sword users in chapter 16 - I'm just waiting for the next time for you to claim that Lyn is better than Marcus in ch.16 so that I can play my "quote the old post" game again) I'm only typing this up so that some dude who reads along can recognize that your claims crumble as soon as one takes a closer look at the numbers.

And if you don't like that not all of my responses are respectful - I don't care. What goes around, comes around.

Edited by ping
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

I never said that he's  a complete and utter detriment. Otherwise, I wouldn't even call him a B rank unit.

What the community thinks is not of my concern, when it comes to evaluating a unit, democracy has no place in it. If a majority jumps off a cliff, that doesn't make it any less questionable. 

It why the community thinks this way that you should really think about. And it's not something that you should dismiss easily for basically no good reason.

Quote

His contributions aren't good enough to give him the title of best unit. The best unit is the one that has great stats and contributes everysingle chapter he is in significanlty,

This statement contradicts itself. If the best unit is someone who has great stats and contributes in every single chapter he is in significantly, then what is the issue with thinking that Marcus is the best unit? He's literally the only unit in this game that at least comes closest to doing this.

Quote

like Hector, who can still contribute even after reaching lv 20 and waiting for his promotion.

Except he can't really do much during the point in which he reaches Lvl 20 unpromoted due to enemies becoming stronger and everyone else just promoting if they haven't promoted already. And even after he promotes, he can't contribute much anyways unless if he's constantly next to Eliwood, Rath, Heath, or Florina, or if you give him a resource that he's competing with Ninian/Nils with.

Quote

If the community wants to claim that it's Marcus, be my guest, just as long as you don't expect much from his stats at least.

In what world is starting strong, remaining strong when used during his strong start, and maintaining relevance even during a point where other units can pick up the slack, "not much"?

Quote

Keep your hostility to a minimum or none at all would be preferable, no words like "fucking" or "BS". I never said it's the only way to go, only one of the more preferables.

This is advice that you should heed yourself, dude.

Quote

Gamefaqs honestly is not that much different from here to be honest,Other than the whole multiquote rule nuisance. Quite a few people who would claim Rebecca is bad due to their inability to use her propely.

Except your definition of "using her properly", judging from your videos, requires turtling and generally not knowing what to do. Hardly a healthy standard for a unit judgement criteria.

Edited by Just call me AL
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Jerry Kuma said:

Wow, @This boi uses Nino, you've explained it better then I could've had o.o

Yeah it reminds me of the "Discussion tournaments" that Mekkkah says used to happen, I feel quite proud of it but I forgot to compare her to Raven (oull be surprised how similar a level 8 Raven is to a level 12 Lyn.

Aw why was my discussion ignored what the hell Jorge?

46 minutes ago, Just call me AL said:

Except your definition of "using her properly", judging from your videos, requires turtling and generally not knowing what to do. Hardly a healthy standard for a unit judgement criteria.

No, you're wrong, his definition seems to be make videos  of only the 1st chapter to show his outstanding, irrefutable, indisputable and completely right playstyle as well as mocking someone in the description (Me). 

Yeah no you aren't actually wrong I just added more to it.


@DiogoJorge You should respond to my previous post bruh.

2 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Then let's try this again then and see if the community can keep themselves from saying unecessary hostile things.

-Can double mercenaries, myrmidons, as well some of the faster bosses, she also dodgetanks better as a result due to having higher SPD. For instance Marcus can't double Teodore whitout forcing him to use Nosferatu first. Since Eclipse weights less despite being a siege tome. And you don't want him to use Nosferatu and prolong the fight further, you want to reach him while he still has Eclipses to use.

-That's quite simple, Marcus DEF doesn't grow, barely so, while Lyn receives a significant boost upon promotion, if she can reach at least 7 DEF, which she does easily upon promotion, than she's already tanking better than Marcus does by virtue of having a better HP growth and having considerably more SPD and LUK. Axefighters can't even reach 10 hit midgame against her, specially if they are using handaxes. At best their hitrate is 20% or so against her, while Marcus is usually 30% when dealing with axefighters while wielding a sword (more so if he has to use Hand Axes for some reason).

- At C rank Lyn and Hector both receive a boost of 5% to their critical, 5% to critical evasion and 2% to evasion. A B rank,  it becomes a 10% increase to their critical, 10% to critical evasion, 5% to evasion, 1 extra attack and 1 extra DEF, both benefit a lot from this, specially if either uses a killer weapon and engage in 1 range combat. At  A rank that's  15% boost to all the previously 10% stats and a 3 to both DEF and ATK. They reach this support rank around chapter 27 or so, making it worthy against the enemies in the later chapters. That's quite considerable even at C rank and it's obtainable as soon as chapter 19x or around that time.

- Not imediately, Marcus still has some uses before he goes to the bench. It's only past chapter 20 or so, that usually Lyn becomes better than him. As for my other statement, Lyn is good from the get-go, since she has good stats for chapter 16.

- It's usefull, for the sake of obtaining chests and villages and the ocasional ferry, but little else. Movement doesn't make up for mediocre battle stats, so obviously those with good stats are the ones who are better. Considering how fast they level, that's usually around chapter 20 or so when I usually bench Marcus. So his uses are a bit too limited for me to consider him anything but a B rank unit.

- He really doesn't. 11 SPD doesn't cut it, it didn't cut for me in the VoD when Kent has screwed with a 15 SPD stat, so I don't see how Marcus would in HHM.

Not really. My arguements have been sound enough, whatever others think, that's up to them.

No it really doesn't apply to me, since nothing smells to begin with.

Bring it on!

Guess who else can do that at a lower level and with more strength than her? I'm talking about Raven. He needs very litte investment to do the same things she does with added Strength and durability. Yep I'm bringing my comparisons you avoided again. This time comparing a level 8 Raven to a Level 12 Lyn and look at how similar they are despite Lyn having a lot more investment in her.

Raven             Lyn
HP: 27            HP: 23               That low HP of Lyn is so funny, I don't know how you call that not a weak start I also noticed you bumped her 3 Def to 4 of her Lv.10 self. Why?
Str: 9              Str: 8                  So Lyn seems to be nearly as strong as Raven but remeber that Raven only needed 3 levels to reach this while Lyn needed 10.
Skl: 12           Skl: 13                This means Lyn is 2% more accurate with swords, the most accurate type of weapon. Yeah 100% is the same as 102% mechanically so thats 2% overkill.
Spd: 14         Spd: 15               Yes Lyn will double 1 or 2 more enemies per chapter that Raven doesn't but that's because we overleveled her any unit does that overleveled
Lck: 3            Lck: 11                This means Lyn is 4% more accurate (Still overkill) and 4% more evasive which doesn't matter when your defense is existent.
Def: 5            Def: 4                  Now Ima clarify something she does have 4 Def, at level 12 but when you said Level 10 you said she had 4 instead of 3. It's not valid to round up!
Res: 1           Res: 3                 Raven has a bigger HP pool so he is actually more durable against mages.
So now you know that Lyn isn't the only one capable of doing what you claim she can do.

Except Marcus doesn't have the same Def base as her. In fact Lyn never surpasses Marcus Def if we use them both. Yes Lyn beats him in decimals but FE doesn't count decimals. Unless you neglect to use Marcus and  don't give him any kills at all. Then she would reach his base Def after 25 levels. that is insane. And her HP growth is higher but 5% more means she will only get 1 point every 20 levels of her 39 possible. In other words not much and if we used both then she would surpass Marcus HP at promotion but he would still be stronger he is still accurate and still hits hard with a silver lance especially since he is still accurate.

It is not a fast support it is around average and there are greater affinities like Fire or Anima which increase her power which is what she needs the most, her crit is already fine she needs to hit harder however.

If you didn't train her and get her at chapter 16 you get a really bad Lyn what are you talking about? 18 HP has her killed by everything and there are some enemies even she doesn't double with her 11 Speed in HHM then her low Def was already bad but combine that with HHM enemies having stronger weapons and her already low HP and she is either killed in 2 or 3 hits by everything and her evasion isn't as great as in E/HNM her only saving grace would be to use those forests which increase her Def a little bit and give her 20 avoid. The only thing she can always go attack without big fear of getting hit are axe users which nearly don't exist in this game. Then she has 5 Strength she is really weak and the only thing that makes this go away is her Mani Katti but once you break it you see she will be doing very little damage at all. She also has 10 Skl in chapter 16 which isn't even good. so what do you mean by her amazing stats right here? She won't double any of the units you really wish you could (Like the Mercenaries) with her 11 Spd, not to mention they are quite accurate and will most likely actually do hit Lyn because 52-60% is actually between 54.40 - 68.40 which is far higher than you would expect especially since there are several Mercenaries with high Hit in this map. While the enemies she does double are enemies others can (Like soldiers) or very strong units that do a lot of damage to her (Like knights, Pegasus knights or Mages since they target her even lower Res.) that would best be avoided to not risk her life.

Movement is a very important stat has it allows for units to reach enemies faster and also to be able to escape from them faster.  And then what do you mean by Mediocre battle stats? He is useful at base still all the way until Chapter 28 HHM in a 0% growth playthorugh how much farther would he get if it wasn't a 0% growth playthrough?

You're kinda cherrypicking here, why are we only talking about VoD? We have seen him be so useful for the entire game but you now nearly disregard him for this chapter? One of the hardest in the game? Maybe he is slow but he is durable and a powerful tank all the time, not like Lyn who can neve tank except for dodging.

Then why do we still have an argument? Are you the only one right here? 

You probably know what it means but you just say that to troll us, it means that if you have an argument everywhere then you're most likely the wrong one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Raven             Lyn
HP: 27            HP: 23               That low HP of Lyn is so funny, I don't know how you call that not a weak start I also noticed you bumped her 3 Def to 4 of her Lv.10 self. Why?
Str: 9              Str: 8                  So Lyn seems to be nearly as strong as Raven but remeber that Raven only needed 3 levels to reach this while Lyn needed 10.
Skl: 12           Skl: 13                This means Lyn is 2% more accurate with swords, the most accurate type of weapon. Yeah 100% is the same as 102% mechanically so thats 2% overkill.
Spd: 14         Spd: 15               Yes Lyn will double 1 or 2 more enemies per chapter that Raven doesn't but that's because we overleveled her any unit does that overleveled
Lck: 3            Lck: 11                This means Lyn is 4% more accurate (Still overkill) and 4% more evasive which doesn't matter when your defense is existent.
Def: 5            Def: 4                  Now Ima clarify something she does have 4 Def, at level 12 but when you said Level 10 you said she had 4 instead of 3. It's not valid to round up!
Res: 1           Res: 3                 Raven has a bigger HP pool so he is actually more durable against mages.
So now you know that Lyn isn't the only one capable of doing what you claim she can do.

You forgot something - HHM bonuses. Thanks to them, Raven's base stats are [29 HP | 10 Str | 13 Skl | 15 Spd | 2 Lck | 6 Def | 2 Res] (all subject to minor fluctuation). Three level-ups obviously add 1 or 2 points to all of those numbers. HHM raven is pretty bonkers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, ping said:

You forgot something - HHM bonuses. Thanks to them, Raven's base stats are [29 HP | 10 Str | 13 Skl | 15 Spd | 2 Lck | 6 Def | 2 Res] (all subject to minor fluctuation). Three level-ups obviously add 1 or 2 points to all of those numbers. HHM raven is pretty bonkers.

Oh right, the thing is I grabbed Serenesforest average stats which don't count his bonuses but thanks for pointing that out I will edit my post right away

EDIT: Nah My point still stands Raven is much bettter than Lyn.

Edited by This boi uses Nino
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Yeah it reminds me of the "Discussion tournaments" that Mekkkah says used to happen, I feel quite proud of it but I forgot to compare her to Raven (oull be surprised how similar a level 8 Raven is to a level 12 Lyn.

Aw why was my discussion ignored what the hell Jorge?

No, you're wrong, his definition seems to be make videos  of only the 1st chapter to show his outstanding, irrefutable, indisputable and completely right playstyle as well as mocking someone in the description (Me). 

Yeah no you aren't actually wrong I just added more to it.


@DiogoJorge You should respond to my previous post bruh.

Bring it on!

Guess who else can do that at a lower level and with more strength than her? I'm talking about Raven. He needs very litte investment to do the same things she does with added Strength and durability. Yep I'm bringing my comparisons you avoided again. This time comparing a level 8 Raven to a Level 12 Lyn and look at how similar they are despite Lyn having a lot more investment in her.

Raven             Lyn
HP: 27            HP: 23               That low HP of Lyn is so funny, I don't know how you call that not a weak start I also noticed you bumped her 3 Def to 4 of her Lv.10 self. Why?
Str: 9              Str: 8                  So Lyn seems to be nearly as strong as Raven but remeber that Raven only needed 3 levels to reach this while Lyn needed 10.
Skl: 12           Skl: 13                This means Lyn is 2% more accurate with swords, the most accurate type of weapon. Yeah 100% is the same as 102% mechanically so thats 2% overkill.
Spd: 14         Spd: 15               Yes Lyn will double 1 or 2 more enemies per chapter that Raven doesn't but that's because we overleveled her any unit does that overleveled
Lck: 3            Lck: 11                This means Lyn is 4% more accurate (Still overkill) and 4% more evasive which doesn't matter when your defense is existent.
Def: 5            Def: 4                  Now Ima clarify something she does have 4 Def, at level 12 but when you said Level 10 you said she had 4 instead of 3. It's not valid to round up!
Res: 1           Res: 3                 Raven has a bigger HP pool so he is actually more durable against mages.
So now you know that Lyn isn't the only one capable of doing what you claim she can do.

Except Marcus doesn't have the same Def base as her. In fact Lyn never surpasses Marcus Def if we use them both. Yes Lyn beats him in decimals but FE doesn't count decimals. Unless you neglect to use Marcus and  don't give him any kills at all. Then she would reach his base Def after 25 levels. that is insane. And her HP growth is higher but 5% more means she will only get 1 point every 20 levels of her 39 possible. In other words not much and if we used both then she would surpass Marcus HP at promotion but he would still be stronger he is still accurate and still hits hard with a silver lance especially since he is still accurate.

It is not a fast support it is around average and there are greater affinities like Fire or Anima which increase her power which is what she needs the most, her crit is already fine she needs to hit harder however.

If you didn't train her and get her at chapter 16 you get a really bad Lyn what are you talking about? 18 HP has her killed by everything and there are some enemies even she doesn't double with her 11 Speed in HHM then her low Def was already bad but combine that with HHM enemies having stronger weapons and her already low HP and she is either killed in 2 or 3 hits by everything and her evasion isn't as great as in E/HNM her only saving grace would be to use those forests which increase her Def a little bit and give her 20 avoid. The only thing she can always go attack without big fear of getting hit are axe users which nearly don't exist in this game. Then she has 5 Strength she is really weak and the only thing that makes this go away is her Mani Katti but once you break it you see she will be doing very little damage at all. She also has 10 Skl in chapter 16 which isn't even good. so what do you mean by her amazing stats right here? She won't double any of the units you really wish you could (Like the Mercenaries) with her 11 Spd, not to mention they are quite accurate and will most likely actually do hit Lyn because 52-60% is actually between 54.40 - 68.40 which is far higher than you would expect especially since there are several Mercenaries with high Hit in this map. While the enemies she does double are enemies others can (Like soldiers) or very strong units that do a lot of damage to her (Like knights, Pegasus knights or Mages since they target her even lower Res.) that would best be avoided to not risk her life.

Movement is a very important stat has it allows for units to reach enemies faster and also to be able to escape from them faster.  And then what do you mean by Mediocre battle stats? He is useful at base still all the way until Chapter 28 HHM in a 0% growth playthorugh how much farther would he get if it wasn't a 0% growth playthrough?

You're kinda cherrypicking here, why are we only talking about VoD? We have seen him be so useful for the entire game but you now nearly disregard him for this chapter? One of the hardest in the game? Maybe he is slow but he is durable and a powerful tank all the time, not like Lyn who can neve tank except for dodging.

Then why do we still have an argument? Are you the only one right here? 

You probably know what it means but you just say that to troll us, it means that if you have an argument everywhere then you're most likely the wrong one.

"Bring it on"? This isn't a competition.

Raven is better than Lyn by a bit though, so that's not suprising, and he's also better than Marcus, even less suprising.

I bumped her DEF to 4? That's pretty much what the average says, 10 levels means 2 points in DEF since she has a 20% DEF growth. It's valid to round up. 3.8 rounds to 4.

Lyn didn't need 10 to reach that level of power. If we go by his averages at the same level 10 as Lyn, then he's only a bit better than her. Also having a value higher than 100% is still good against lances.

Lyn isn't overleveled, 8-10 is meant to be the level that she ends her Prologue at. Same for Kent and/or Sain.

Having a higher HP pool only makes one more resilent if they have considerably more HP, Raven only has around 7 points more and has a signficantly lesser RES stat, as the averages go.

I never claimed she was the only one unit that could do it, but that she's good at what she does, considerably so.

His base DEF is stuck at 10 for most part, so it's not desirable for a tank unit, if he had the SPD, then you would be right, but his SPD also refuses to grow often, still better than his DEF but only slightly so. Lyn doesn't his DEF, only close to that amount, as I said before, 7 DEF and the like. Since she dodgetanks better and pretty much negates damage from axeusers. Also, you are forgetting that Marcus underperforms under Kent and that his growths aren't good enough to keep him relevant to the end, meaning that Kent will get much more experience than Marcus will, and since Lyn excells against a a good variety of enemies, that means that she will be doing more growing than Marcus will.

Her support with Hector increases power by 3 at A rank, and I care more for critical rates, since she doubles very often, with a killing edge, that's almost a surefire crit. It also increases her DEF as well by 3 points, so her weak stat also gets a boost. That's a good support, and it's a fast one at that, since Florina is the only one faster due to gaining a single point higher than Hector per turn, as well Hector x Lyn having  better starting points.

You only get a bad Lyn if you don't use her at all during her mode. Mani Katti regenerates by the end of it and you have plenty of uses of the best weapon in that mode. It's not difficult to imagine her gaining levels as a result. As well having a B rank, almost A in swords. She did just fine in chapter 16 though, since her stats are never as low as you claim they are, she doesn't have 5 STR, she has 8 for starters. Knights should fear her, not the other way around. Mani Katti kills them for the most part.

I don't need to reach enemies faster, since they move towards me anyway for the most part, as long as I keep moving foward, eventually the party and the enemy will clash. I don't need to retreat faster when I can just place a tank in front of the enemy path and thus block their attacks from reaching my unit in the first place. The result is virtually the same.

I will say this again, but why do 0% growths run even exist if units like Marcus are that great like you would like me to believe? 0% growths runs exist, because otherwise, growth units would trump units like Marcus. 0% growth run is a self imposed challenge that handicaps you, if Marcus was that great, then it wouldn't be much of an handicap. As for how far he goes with growths? Not very far, considering that there are plenty of pre-promotes and/or growth units that are better than him and would take priority in deployment. Pent and Geitz for instance.

It's not cherrypicking, Marcus  stats don't grow much, I don't want to drag him around that far when his averages are a disapointment. Lyn can tank some magic actually, so that's only half true. Specially since she receives a much more significant boost upon promotion compared to Marcus and his growth. He's not a durable tank all the time, he only has 10 DEF and rarely grows out of it. At later points in the game, I want someone like Hector and his 17 DEF (before promotion) to do the tanking.

We have an argument, because I won't agree that Marcus is anything but a barely good unit, never the best. His stats would never satisfy me.

 

I don't troll and despise their kind, so no. I'm not the only one right, but having more stats is better and I seriously doubt that I'm the only one who thinks so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

I don't need to reach enemies faster, since they move towards me anyway for the most part, as long as I keep moving foward, eventually the party and the enemy will clash. I don't need to retreat faster when I can just place a tank in front of the enemy path and thus block their attacks from reaching my unit in the first place. The result is virtually the same.

So basically, you're basically all but turtling. Things make a lot more sense now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

3.8 rounds to 4.

Decimals don't matter in stats, that is still a 3 to the game, so she has 3 defense 

 

12 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

has a signficantly lesser RES stat, as the averages go.

If I read the average stats right, raven and Lyn at level 10 have 1 and 2 res on average l, yeah BIG difference 

 

15 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

I will say this again, but why do 0% growths run even exist if units like Marcus are that great like you would like me to believe?

If a unit can go through the ENTIRE game without gaining ANY stats and still perform well, how do you think that's gonna translate with growths, oh yeah, they do even better than they did!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

Decimals don't matter in stats, that is still a 3 to the game, so she has 3 defense 

 

If I read the average stats right, raven and Lyn at level 10 have 1 and 2 res on average l, yeah BIG difference 

 

If a unit can go through the ENTIRE game without gaining ANY stats and still perform well, how do you think that's gonna translate with growths, oh yeah, they do even better than they did!

10 DEF and 11 SPD is hardly going to get much better with 15% DEF and 25% RES respectively. Those stats don't impress at base, and still don't impress by his lv 20 average.

 

 

3 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

This is advice that you should heed yourself, dude.

As for you AL, I'm pretty sure I didn't use the words "fucking" and "BS" other than as examples.

Edited by DiogoJorge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Balcerzak said:

So basically, you're basically all but turtling. Things make a lot more sense now.

I'm not though. If I'm moving towards them, than it's not 

 

5 minutes ago, Balcerzak said:

So basically, you're basically all but turtling. Things make a lot more sense now.

It's not though, if I'm moving towards my enemies, then I'm tanking, not turtling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Her support with Hector increases power by 3 at A rank, and I care more for critical rates, since she doubles very often, with a killing edge, that's almost a surefire crit. It also increases her DEF as well by 3 points, so her weak stat also gets a boost. That's a good support, and it's a fast one at that, since Florina is the only one faster due to gaining a single point higher than Hector per turn, as well Hector x Lyn having  better starting points.

Haha :lol: Do you even Number? 

Hector/Lyn A support gives +1 Atk, +1 Def, +7 Avoid, +7 Accuracy, +15 Crit, +15 Crit Evade.

(should I even mention that Guy has a full crit support with Matthew that grows faster than Lyn/Hector? And does actually give +3 Atk?)

Just to be clear - you do know how basic addition and rounding work, right?

Just now, DiogoJorge said:

As for you AL, I'm pretty sure I didn't use the words "fucking" and "BS" other than as examples.

3 hours ago, ping said:

There's other ways to be offensive than to use strong language. Dishonesty (or just being misinformed) in one's arguments and ignoring factual evidence brought up against them (or dismiss that evidence without any substantial backing), at which point "misinformed" turns into "dishonest", too, can be seen as at least as disrespectul as swearwords.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

mfw I'm about to play FE6 and Jorge just repliedimage.jpeg.65e8ae3fc1bdd8e4e44809e0ed9227e9.jpeg




but my boys got me so I can relax  and play                   Image result for relieved faces

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, ping said:

Haha :lol: Do you even Number? 

Hector/Lyn A support gives +1 Atk, +1 Def, +7 Avoid, +7 Accuracy, +15 Crit, +15 Crit Evade.

(should I even mention that Guy has a full crit support with Matthew that grows faster than Lyn/Hector? And does actually give +3 Atk?)

Just to be clear - you do know how basic addition and rounding work, right?

 

Are you telling me that supports don't go both ways? Lyn has 1.5 and Hector also has 1.5 .Combined they make it 3 points.

Matthew can't tank, neither can Guy, unlike Hector, so that means they won't see as much frontline action. Not to mention that Lyn is superior to Guy.

Yes. And rounding means that if a value is .5 or higher then it rounds up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Having a higher HP pool only makes one more resilent if they have considerably more HP, Raven only has around 7 points more and has a signficantly lesser RES stat, as the averages go.

Because Lyn is gonna have oh so much more resistance than Raven, right? Oh wait, no she won't. Sorry!

25 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Her support with Hector increases power by 3 at A rank, and I care more for critical rates, since she doubles very often, with a killing edge, that's almost a surefire crit. It also increases her DEF as well by 3 points, so her weak stat also gets a boost. That's a good support, and it's a fast one at that, since Florina is the only one faster due to gaining a single point higher than Hector per turn, as well Hector x Lyn having  better starting points.

Bold: lmfao no. Hector/Lyn starts at 0 and has a +3 rate, while Lyn/Florina has +4 and starts at 76.

Everything else: Yeah, never mind the part where needing to have the supportees adjacent to one another is a huge inconvenience and that as a result, I could have units I want to crash and burn against Hector attack Lyn instead... Also, FYI, Lyn/Hector only gives 1 defense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, DiogoJorge said:

.Yes. And rounding means that if a value is .5 or higher then it rounds up.

It's got to be .6 or higher though. And also I've never seen my units do 1.87654 damage to enemies so decimals don't matter. In this game if it's not +1 then it's +0

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, ping said:

There's other ways to be offensive than to use strong language. Dishonesty (or just being misinformed) in one's arguments and ignoring factual evidence brought up against them (or dismiss that evidence without any substantial backing), at which point "misinformed" turns into "dishonest", too, can be seen as at least as disrespectul as swearwords.

That's not being offensive. I'm not being dishonest nor I'm misinformed (which is also not offensive). I didn't ignore any factual evidence, since there was nothing so far like that. Any evidence presented so far don't tell me how Marcus can be the best unit, when his stats don't reach 20 or higher for most part.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, This boi uses Nino said:

It's got to be .6 or higher though. And also I've never seen my units do 1.87654 damage to enemies so decimals don't matter. In this game if it's not +1 then it's +0

I was taught it was .5 in my country, so I will stand with that, not that it matters, since her DEF was 3.8.  Then the same argument can be used against Marcus, if he's not reaching  21 STR, then not even his best stat is that great.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, DiogoJorge said:

I was taught it was .5 in my country, so I will stand with that, not that it matters, since her DEF was 3.8.  Then the same argument can be used against Marcus, if he's not reaching  21 STR, then not even his best stat is that great.

 

Don't silver lances have 13 or 14 might? That's a lot if you ask me if you add it to his 20/21 Atk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...