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Lost Impact

A Headcanon/Theory of mine about Greil

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So, a thought popped into my head. Was Greil's death against the Black Knight planned?

Why exactly the BK wanted to kill Greil wasn't really explained in Radiant Dawn. The explanation given was that he wanted to test his strength against Greil, his former teacher. But this doesn't really make sense, for two reasons: firstly, Zelgius trained under Greil. So surely he must have fought him countless times? Even if it were in training. And secondly, all he wanted was to test his strength, so why would he need to kill Greil for this? He could just have easily asked Greil for a friendly match, like Mia does with Ike.  Especially considering he idolised him, doesn't make sense. 

The point has been brought up many times that technically Titania should have taken command of the Greil mercenaries after Greil's death, as she's second in command. And Greil accepting the challenge from the Black Knight, knowing the consequences if he lost, right before the war breaks out, and leaving his 17 year old son in charge of a band of mercenaries who he has no idea to lead? Seems odd. Not to mention, he started preparing Ike not long before the fateful duel. Now, Greil had reason not to want to be around during the war with Daein, considering he would have been recognised as a former rider of Daein. Having Ike command the mercenaries would have made sense, as he wouldn't have been recognised. Also, Greil would have wanted to prepare Ike. 

Rewatching the cutscene, the fight looks very forced, almost like Greil knows he'll lose. And considering he knows Zelgius, he could have had the whole thing planned out, preparing Ike just in case anything happened with the medallion. Greil ensured Ike constantly has a goal to work towards and a reason to keep training. 

In Radiant Dawn we learn that Sephiran had nothing to do with Greil's death, so he wouldn't know anything about any other plans. And Zelgius didn't really have much reason to tell Ike, he'd got over it by that point and it would just overcomplicate things. 

Apologies if I didn't explain it too well. But that's my theory. Thoughts?

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33 minutes ago, Lost Impact said:

So, a thought popped into my head. Was Greil's death against the Black Knight planned?

no, I do not believe it was

33 minutes ago, Lost Impact said:

Why exactly the BK wanted to kill Greil wasn't really explained in Radiant Dawn. The explanation given was that he wanted to test his strength against Greil, his former teacher. But this doesn't really make sense, for two reasons: firstly, Zelgius trained under Greil. So surely he must have fought him countless times? Even if it were in training. And secondly, all he wanted was to test his strength, so why would he need to kill Greil for this? He could just have easily asked Greil for a friendly match, like Mia does with Ike.  Especially considering he idolised him, doesn't make sense. 

he wanted to see if he was finally able to beat him after all these years, as well as get the medallion for ashnard. However, when he put up so little of a fight, the fight was too easy and I assumed it annoyed zelgius that he was so easy to beat and finished the fight quickly.

33 minutes ago, Lost Impact said:

The point has been brought up many times that technically Titania should have taken command of the Greil mercenaries after Greil's death, as she's second in command. And Greil accepting the challenge from the Black Knight, knowing the consequences if he lost, right before the war breaks out, and leaving his 17 year old son in charge of a band of mercenaries who he has no idea to lead? Seems odd. Not to mention, he started preparing Ike not long before the fateful duel. Now, Greil had reason not to want to be around during the war with Daein, considering he would have been recognised as a former rider of Daein. Having Ike command the mercenaries would have made sense, as he wouldn't have been recognised. Also, Greil would have wanted to prepare Ike. 

greil planned for ike to take over from the start and, in a way, predicted his own death and welcomed it somewhat due to the circumstances with the medallion that transcribed earlier.

basically, zelgius went after greil for the medallion, saw it as an opportunity to test his abilities against his old teacher, as saw that greil wasn't trying/was much weaker and not worth the full challenge. It wasn't until Ike revealed that he hacked his hand apart after killing elena that Zelgius realized that he fought a nerfed version.

 

the direct script supports this somewhat as well

Black Knight:
“…Unbelievable. Is this truly what has become of my teacher?”

Ike:
“Father! Father!!”

Greil:
“I…Ike…”

Ike:
“Hold on!”

Black Knight:
“Now then, will you give me what I came for?”

Edited by Chocolate Kitty

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47 minutes ago, Lost Impact said:

And considering he knows Zelgius, he could have had the whole thing planned out, preparing Ike just in case anything happened with the medallion. Greil ensured Ike constantly has a goal to work towards and a reason to keep training. 

I don't think Greil would have planned or anticipated Ike's participation in POR's plot. He urges Ike not to seek revenge on the Black Knight and to stay out of the whole mess. 

Personally I always thought Zelgius thinking a match to the death being the only way to test his might to be a gigantic morale failing on Zelgius part. He kills a man just to find out if he's able to do so. The game doesn't seem to agree with me on that though and seems to think his ego stroking was a valid reasoning for murdering Greil. 

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2 hours ago, Lost Impact said:

So, a thought popped into my head. Was Greil's death against the Black Knight planned?

Why exactly the BK wanted to kill Greil wasn't really explained in Radiant Dawn. The explanation given was that he wanted to test his strength against Greil, his former teacher. But this doesn't really make sense, for two reasons: firstly, Zelgius trained under Greil. So surely he must have fought him countless times? Even if it were in training.

6

You said it correctly. ''firstly, Zelgius trained under Greil.''

It is a fact that Greil (Gawain back then) was one of the best swordfighters of Tellius. Zelgius has probably never have beaten him.

 

2 hours ago, Lost Impact said:

And secondly, all he wanted was to test his strength, so why would he need to kill Greil for this? He could just have easily asked Greil for a friendly match, like Mia does with Ike.  Especially considering he idolised him, doesn't make sense. 

2

Well, a sparing match is never the same as a real battle. You could agrue that he accidently killed his idol. Or maybe he was to dissapointed of his former master. Or maybe he had an elixer if Greil just said the location of the Emblem. Zelgius goal was to retrieve the Emblem.

This goal was given by Sephiran (Lehran). Sephiran should have known that Zelgius would have challenged Greil. So the faul is maybe by Sephiran.

2 hours ago, Lost Impact said:

The point has been brought up many times that technically Titania should have taken command of the Greil mercenaries after Greil's death, as she's second in command. A

 

Some chapters before this event, Greil let Ike lead. And Greil dying wish was to let Ike lead the Merceneries. Titania accepted Greil dying request. But Shinon & Gatrie not.

2 hours ago, Lost Impact said:

 And Greil accepting the challenge from the Black Knight, knowing the consequences if he lost, right before the war breaks out, and leaving his 17 year old son in charge of a band of mercenaries who he has no idea to lead? Seems odd. Not to mention, he started preparing Ike not long before the fateful duel.

1

Kinda weird indeed. Greil knew that he had no change. Maybe he was scared that the Black Knight would have murdered the whole group? If Greil was dead, Zelgius would know where the Emblem is (actually he could remember that Mist has the Emblem. And Greil knows that Mist is stubborn enough not to tell Zelgius.)

2 hours ago, Chocolate Kitty said:

greil planned for ike to take over from the start and, in a way, predicted his own death and welcomed it somewhat due to the circumstances with the medallion that transcribed earlier.

basically, zelgius went after greil for the medallion, saw it as an opportunity to test his abilities against his old teacher, as saw that greil wasn't trying/was much weaker and not worth the full challenge. It wasn't until Ike revealed that he hacked his hand apart after killing elena that Zelgius realized that he fought a nerfed version.

 

the direct script supports this somewhat as well

Black Knight:
“…Unbelievable. Is this truly what has become of my teacher?”

Ike:
“Father! Father!!”

Greil:
“I…Ike…”

Ike:
“Hold on!”

Black Knight:
“Now then, will you give me what I came for?”

6

^Chocolate Kitty explains it good

 

2 hours ago, Lost Impact said:

Rewatching the cutscene, the fight looks very forced, almost like Greil knows he'll lose.

 

Greil know he would lose

2 hours ago, Lost Impact said:

And considering he knows Zelgius, he could have had the whole thing planned out, preparing Ike just in case anything happened with the medallion. Greil ensured Ike constantly has a goal to work towards and a reason to keep training. 

 

 

No, I do not believe it was. Zelgius was forced to retreat. He would have went through, if it wasn't for the Lion king Cain

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No, I don't think Greil had his death planned out. There are several factors that are toofar out of calculations to do so. It isn't like Rudolf's where there was absolutely no choice.

One thing I always felt is that even if Greil was able to use his sword arm, he would still lose to Zelgius. That's cause its been nearly two decades. Greil isn't getting any younger. He's a beorc, with a much more limited lifespan unlike the laguz and Branded. No matter how strong or healthy you become, the age would always dull your skill. So at best, the fight would have lasted longer, but age would take its toll on Greil and Greil would end up having an opening, and Zelgius would still be dissatisfied because Greil was not in his prime. 

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5 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Personally I always thought Zelgius thinking a match to the death being the only way to test his might to be a gigantic morale failing on Zelgius part. He kills a man just to find out if he's able to do so. The game doesn't seem to agree with me on that though and seems to think his ego stroking was a valid reasoning for murdering Greil.

The BK in PoR is a mysterious murderer whom Ike must avenge himself upon. RD, well from the first moment of his appearance defending Micaiah, the BK's image begins to soften, particularly with the Zelgius stuff.

But then in the very end, with Ike displaying no more desire for revenge in RD, his duel with the BK has to take on a different meaning. The BK had to become something other than a murderer, and they chose the path of a sympathetic BK, the BK as an honorable rival for Ike. In doing so, in trying to make it out that the BK just wanted to duel Greil, and seemingly accidentally let his lust for battle kill Greil when he didn't understand he was handicapped. This also sidesteps the BK's threatening of killing MIst in PoR while Greil lay dying.

Maybe it would have been better for Ike to actually want revenge in RD, so the BK could remain more firmly villainous. Zelgius, when you see the look on his face in the movie clip just before he duels Ranulf, you can certainly see a craving to fight on it. But in the end, RD chooses to portray him as just an insecure, tragic Branded, which always came off a bit awkward to me.

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Quote

Well, a sparing match is never the same as a real battle. You could agrue that he accidently killed his idol. Or maybe he was to dissapointed of his former master. Or maybe he had an elixer if Greil just said the location of the Emblem. Zelgius goal was to retrieve the Emblem.

The last time Zelgius saw the Emblem, it was in Mist's hand, and nobody near her had gone on a murderous rampage since then. He should have been able to guess that she still had it.

He knew that Greil was lying about having "thrown it away," and he knew that that was the only alternative to letting Mist keep it; thus, he must have known that Mist had kept it.

So why wouldn't he try to take it from her directly? Probably because by the time he had another opportunity to do so, Ashnard had already planned to have Nasir steal it.

Edited by Paper Jam

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4 hours ago, Paper Jam said:

The last time Zelgius saw the Emblem, it was in Mist's hand, and nobody near her had gone on a murderous rampage since then. He should have been able to guess that she still had it.

He knew that Greil was lying about having "thrown it away," and he knew that that was the only alternative to letting Mist keep it; thus, he must have known that Mist had kept it.

 

Yeah, that's what I said. Zelgius must have known that Mist should have the Emblem. 

I think, that if Cainighis wasn't there that night, Ike would have been severely injured or killed. Then he would go to Mist. Mist would eventually give it to him if he threatens to kill all of her friends (in my headcanon)

4 hours ago, Paper Jam said:

So why wouldn't he try to take it from her directly? Probably because by the time he had another opportunity to do so, Ashnard had already planned to have Nasir steal it.

 

I don't think that Zelgius was retrieving the Emblem for Ashnard. I think he was getting it for Sephiran.

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On ‎2018‎-‎07‎-‎29 at 5:47 PM, Truebladee said:

I don't think that Zelgius was retrieving the Emblem for Ashnard. I think he was getting it for Sephiran.

Sephiran confirms in Radiant Dawn, when confronted by Ike, that he had ordered Zelgius to retrieve the medallion and deliver it to Ashnard. Zelgius dueling Greil was Zelgius acting out of his own ambition. 

Sephiran:
“Sir Ike, I’m afraid your father’s death was an unfortunate result of Zelgius’s own personal agenda. I did not order Sir Gawain killed. However, I must admit that I did ask him to seize the medallion and hand it over to King Ashnard. The goddess was to be freed…and all living creatures destroyed.”

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I think that was an accidental murder. Zelgius knew how strong his master and hoped that Greil had become stronger... So when he fought, he gave everything, but it was too much.
Zelgius really was in shock... Was that all?

Likewise, it sad me.
His family rejected him, and the first person who accepted him as a student and treated him well was Greil, I think that for Zelgius, Greil was more than his master, he was his family.

For that reason, he pained to separate from him and he expresses in his dialogue with Sephiran "I will miss the combats with my master"

After looking for him to face him as in the old days, Greil rejects him.
The only person who had not rejected, rejects him. That is why Zelgius urges him to fight. But when they battle, he defeats him but he didn't expect to kill him. He did not expect it to be that simple.

I could even believe that Zelgius believed that Greil rejected him, his master preferring to die before the having to fight him seriously.
For him, it was a relief to discover that Greil couldn't fight better because he cut his tendons. It was not that Greil had refused to give the best of himself, but gave his best under his condition. Zelgius lost that fight with Ike after knowing that he had not been rejected by the person he adored....

Edited by Kuronga

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