Misconception of Tier Lists

[MacLovin]

5 hours ago, Garlyle said:

I do like to get hints from tier lists, but not relying on them as a rule to follow. In fact, looking at the current Gampress tier list, I have half the top tier units, but didn't use them too much yet. I think it's just made judging from their stats and unique skills, but possibly the investment they require.

i find following a promotion rule of "invest in fave, then roster necessity like Reinhardt" to work out.

5 hours ago, Garlyle said:

My greatest hero is Brave Roy, who is Tier 3, but with minimal investment he made into all my teams and up to 5.000 feathers before Lyn or Reinhardt. Yet I see not many people use Brave Roy out there. Also like units that are strong counter to a specific type, those are must in Arena Assault, yet they got Tier 5. For example: Ursula, Deridre, NekoSakura, Kagero. I know they can be situational, but with minimal investment, they can be just as good as higher tier units. Tier list is also bad for healers, it just tells you that Cavalry healer are always better than infantry healers, yet Genny and Bride Lyn can give even better utility to your party than Priscilla or Nanna by default.

Brave Roy is good, but iirc he's pretty vanilla.

the tier list is kinda centered on top tier arena viability iirc. 

5 hours ago, Garlyle said:

But then it comes to character who are high tier, but also look very situational. Soleil is only good because of the Firesweep Sword, but it's a weapon I believe is much better on other units instead of her. Why is Bride Cordelia Tier 2? Why is Raven better than Linus? Also dragons won't get worse than Tier 3? That means they are all better than Fjorm? Judging from tier list we should never rely on Askr trio. There's too many questioable stuff on tier list. Unless these questions are answered, I'll keep trying to build a Sigurd out of my Seliph until these questions are answered appropriately. Merge is not an answer, Male Kana is high tier.

hold the fuck up.

Soleil is 38/35 for offensive stats and had solid enough defenses to take hits. She can run almost any sword set imaginable. the Firesweep Sword is an amazingly solid weapon and she even comes with a free C slot drive skill so you don't have to throw one in for filler.

Bride Cordelia's tier 2 due to being seasonal and bows falling out of favor from what I've seen. 

Dragons are easy to buff up since Nowi/A Tiki/F Corrin/Fae are all in the 3-4* pool and can get merges and run Lightning Breath sets. They're also incredibly easy to build but take a lot of SI. Fjorm's good for f2p tho. 

Seliph is good at magic tanking. I'm building one.

Male Kana is a dragon. A free one with a dragon buff and free brazen. Can't go wrong with him.

->I'm a f2p player with limited knowledge on heroes. Most of the time I wind up asking in the SF discord.

[Hilda]

imho tierlists for individual characters in FEH is bogus. You are running a Team of 4 so the Team composition matters much more. I think they should only Tier the whole classes (like Dragons and Armorers on S tier, Fliers and Cavalry on A tier and Infantety on B Tiet). 

[Javi Blizz]

I’ve been playing F2P since launch and I’ve reached the point were I don’t find tier lists usefull for myself. Budget/f2p tier lists doesn’t offer much more than Fury/Desperation/-blade/Brave bow on everything that can learn it. Arena tier list, while more useful, shows sets which usually have more than 1 premium skill, which is too much for me yet. 

[MacLovin]

budget lists offering fury/DB3/LnD with brashperation is annoyingly common. but then i find that they don't talk about shit like "gem weapon+breaker skill" enough for AA budget building. 

[Garlyle]

Ok, I got a lot of feedback from you guys, and I feel like you agree that I'm not right on a lot of things. Granted I still only have Soleil in the training session, but she is missing something for me to keep her safe. Not being able to counter is a drawback that always needs to plan around. Will promote her to 5* when I get there.

Bride Cordelia can be ok, but I don't see how she is on the same level as Brave Lyn. I'm always getting cautios when I see Brave Lyn in the opponent team, but I never have the same when Bride Cordelia is around. Her skillset doesn't really offer anything to make her stand out. Or maybe I'm just blind.

I do want to defend Fjorm though, because she's one of those units who always deliver for me. With her distant counter weapon and defensive build, she can lure and get kills. Her Atk and Def are not the best, but that's patched up by her Bond skill. Most of the time I'd feel confident with Fjorm on my team, but can't say the same for all dragons. And I'm not planning to inherit Lightning Breath+ to all the dragons out there. I do however like Male Kana, there are times when I prefer him over Hardin. (and male Grima is no joke)

[XRay]

49 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

Bride Cordelia can be ok, but I don't see how she is on the same level as Brave Lyn. I'm always getting cautios when I see Brave Lyn in the opponent team, but I never have the same when Bride Cordelia is around. Her skillset doesn't really offer anything to make her stand out. Or maybe I'm just blind.

The tier list is based on how good the unit is in the player's hand, not the AI's. If we are doing a tier list based how how effective the AI uses a unit, then melee units would be absolute crap on the bottom, and ponies that are Firesweep archers/healers and nukes would be on top.

I have both BB!Cordelia and BH!Lyn, and based on my experience, BH!Lyn got mobility issues on the newer maps due to the prolific amount of trenches. It is not a huge deal for me, but I can imagine it can be frustrating for newer users trying out pony teams on the more cramped maps.

49 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

I do want to defend Fjorm though, because she's one of those units who always deliver for me. With her distant counter weapon and defensive build, she can lure and get kills. Her Atk and Def are not the best, but that's patched up by her Bond skill. Most of the time I'd feel confident with Fjorm on my team, but can't say the same for all dragons. And I'm not planning to inherit Lightning Breath+ to all the dragons out there. I do however like Male Kana, there are times when I prefer him over Hardin. (and male Grima is no joke)

No one is saying she sucks, but dragons are the best Enemy Phase units by a large margin due to their good bulk and high damage output, no other Weapon type even comes close. Dragons also do not have to worry about Breakers.

Given a choice between Fjorm and Nowi, most players are going to choose Nowi.

[MacLovin]

3 hours ago, Garlyle said:

Ok, I got a lot of feedback from you guys, and I feel like you agree that I'm not right on a lot of things. Granted I still only have Soleil in the training session, but she is missing something for me to keep her safe. Not being able to counter is a drawback that always needs to plan around. Will promote her to 5* when I get there.

yes but SI exists and makes Soleil a monster. LnD FS+ is still great tho.

3 hours ago, Garlyle said:

Bride Cordelia can be ok, but I don't see how she is on the same level as Brave Lyn. I'm always getting cautios when I see Brave Lyn in the opponent team, but I never have the same when Bride Cordelia is around. Her skillset doesn't really offer anything to make her stand out. Or maybe I'm just blind.

Again, she wants investment to be really scary. otherwise she's just solid.

3 hours ago, Garlyle said:

I do want to defend Fjorm though, because she's one of those units who always deliver for me. With her distant counter weapon and defensive build, she can lure and get kills. Her Atk and Def are not the best, but that's patched up by her Bond skill. Most of the time I'd feel confident with Fjorm on my team, but can't say the same for all dragons. And I'm not planning to inherit Lightning Breath+ to all the dragons out there. I do however like Male Kana, there are times when I prefer him over Hardin. (and male Grima is no joke)

all of the blue dragons get access to refineable DC weapons in lightning breath and have durability on par with or higher than Fjorm. Nowi/F Corn/ (and A Tiki+Fae as well) are all easily mergeable due to being 3/4* pool. If anything, they're just incredibly easy to get working in the arena since they just want lol lightning breath+ other stuff. Granted it's often expensive shit, but they get an incredible amount of mileage out of steady/warding breath and whatever else is available.

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, Mister Rogers said:

but then i find that they don't talk about shit like "gem weapon+breaker skill" enough for AA budget building. 

That's because Arena Assault is not the same as Arena offense. The ability to preview the opponent's team and counter-pick the opponent makes a huge difference and also make tier lists kind of worthless for the mode (because literally everything is going to be S+, S, or S-).

[MacLovin]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

That's because Arena Assault is not the same as Arena offense. The ability to preview the opponent's team and counter-pick the opponent makes a huge difference and also make tier lists kind of worthless for the mode (because literally everything is going to be S+, S, or S-).

yes, but literally the only half-decent decent beginners guide I've seen is https://feheroes.gamepedia.com/Free-to-Play_guide

[Alexmender]

I view Tier Lists as a general guide for new players that need to get the ropes quickly in order to get to a competitive level. It is also helpful to see what kind of units are common on the ranges they rate. For me, they are as totally useless as I play above the ranges they work on and I find little to no value in 1v1 when my whole team is based around Tactics buffs. For example, Eirika is my main big surprise, I know and in the tier list context she's meh to bad because she relies completely on team buffs, but in practice she's practically invincible because the game values team comp more than individual strength. 

Despite being catered towards Arena Offense, I find that Tier Lists tend to be more useful for creating defense teams, as those really prefer having huge 1v1 numbers because the AI is stupid and needs all the help it can get. Of course this only applies to PP and Mixed Phase units, EP units are worthless for defense teams.

[Junkhead]

19 hours ago, XRay said:

I agree. I find tier lists rather unhelpful due to my play style being so different. I value mobility and Player Phase ranged combat too, so it is pretty weird to see melee armor units being rated so highly. If BST was not a factor in Arena, I think armor units would not be as highly rated as they are currently.

I think it is best if they create more specialized tier lists. If I were to create a tier list, non Dancer/Singer melee units are going to be at the bottom of the list.

Traditional FE tier lists also highly value mobility. And even in Heroes, having 3 Mov on top of range still seems pretty insane, to me...so much that I'd sincerely still rank Reinhardt within Top 5 (at the very top of my head). Apparently it's because people adapated to him, but that can be said about a lot of characters (with the only character hard to counter/nigh being horse Lyn with Firesweep + CA, appareantly).

When I try to compare a lot of non-Cavalry units to their Armour counterparts (think Sophia and Henry vs. Tharja), they tend to win by having access to dumb class skills like Bold & Vengeful Fighter. Could've sworn having 2 Mov was a pretty realistic advantage, until things like Firesweep + Bold + Boots just makes it moot.

[Landmaster]

On 7/30/2018 at 4:04 AM, Garlyle said:

Soleil is only good because of the Firesweep Sword

Wo Dao Soleil >>>>>>>>

[Junkhead]

2 hours ago, Landmaster said:

Wo Dao Soleil >>>>>>>>

Soleil with anything.

[MacLovin]

7 hours ago, Junkhead said:

Soleil with anything.

Even scissors.

 

 

 

but I do find it fucking hilarious that heroes winds up with an armor meta.

[Junkhead]

 

2 hours ago, Mister Rogers said:

but I do find it fucking hilarious that heroes winds up with an armor meta.

Take BST stuff out of the equation and see what happens. I means, they'd still be very good, but you can probably use characters regardless of how they score outside of that.

[Ice Dragon]

6 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Take BST stuff out of the equation and see what happens. I means, they'd still be very good, but you can probably use characters regardless of how they score outside of that.

One of the primary differences between Heroes and other Fire Emblem games is that in most of this game's content, there is no need to maintain a low turn count.

There would be a smaller focus on armors without stat totals driving score, but I'd still expect some amount of gravitating towards them simply due to how overwhelmingly powerful they are and how obnoxious they can be made to be.

[Reiska]

As far as I can tell, FEH tier lists are generally narrowly oriented toward Arena, and more narrowly toward Arena score.  Arena itself is unlike most of the game in that since the unit matchups are relatively symmetrical in power, it strongly encourages Enemy Phase-oriented units who can easily bait and kill, whereas much of the rest of the game has you facing opponents notably stronger than you where hit-and-run strategies with ranged units, dancers, movement assists, etc. take the lead. 

If I were going to write a tier list geared towards GHB/BHB for example, armors would probably be quite a bit lower on that list (and flying units would be near the top, especially ranged flying units).  But in arena, especially high-end arena where Distant Counter is nearly ubiquitous, such units don't play nearly as well.

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Reiska said:

it strongly encourages Enemy Phase-oriented units who can easily bait and kill,

That's not true at all. The best performers in the Arena are units that can run mixed phase in order to choose which phase they engage the opponent on.

Enemy-phase-only units have the notable weakness that they cannot easily deal with Firesweep weapons and certain Bold Fighter builds.

 

1 hour ago, Reiska said:

If I were going to write a tier list geared towards GHB/BHB

I personally think there's little worth for a tier list used for PvE content with fixed enemies, though, because, like Arena Assault, you can always counter-pick the opponent, and counter-picks are typically going to perform better than teams designed for general use.

Tier lists are great for modes that require teams built for general use (like Arena since you can't preview your opponent or counter-pick before each round), but less relevant for other modes.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Ice Dragon

[XRay]

3 hours ago, Reiska said:

it strongly encourages Enemy Phase-oriented units who can easily bait and kill

I am going to disagree there, since it also depends on your access to resources and what play style you are already comfortable with. Assuming at least dolphin status and have decent experience with Player Phase nukes, an Arena core of a flying Firesweep archer with a flying Dancer/Singer is far easier to win practically every battle with zero stress and stay in Tier 20.

I run a core of Firesweep BH!Lyn and Olivia with Reinhardt as my third. I can still comfortably stay in Tier 20, although it does require some fishing and some SP optimization. Fishing can be a pain sometimes, but the combat is so easy once you got your opponent. With my pony setup, the only map I have trouble with is the vertical parallel bridges map when the enemy is running ranged pony teams; if I got ASS!Takumi and YT!Olivia instead, even that map would not be an issue since I can just Reposition myself over the water.

[Interdimensional Observer]

On 8/2/2018 at 4:14 AM, Mister Rogers said:

but I do find it fucking hilarious that heroes winds up with an armor meta.

I'd love to see someone make a funny collection of "A FEH Player Plays Actual FEs for the First Time and is Bewildered by the Differences". 

I also love to imagine tier lists as one giant tower of people holding everyone above them up, and in turn being held up by everyone below them.

[DraceEmpressa]

15 hours ago, XRay said:

I am going to disagree there, since it also depends on your access to resources and what play style you are already comfortable with. Assuming at least dolphin status and have decent experience with Player Phase nukes, an Arena core of a flying Firesweep archer with a flying Dancer/Singer is far easier to win practically every battle with zero stress and stay in Tier 20.

I run a core of Firesweep BH!Lyn and Olivia with Reinhardt as my third. I can still comfortably stay in Tier 20, although it does require some fishing and some SP optimization. Fishing can be a pain sometimes, but the combat is so easy once you got your opponent. With my pony setup, the only map I have trouble with is the vertical parallel bridges map when the enemy is running ranged pony teams; if I got ASS!Takumi and YT!Olivia instead, even that map would not be an issue since I can just Reposition myself over the water.

I have both Airzura and Kinshikumi, he's +10 even, but I still float at tier 19-18. Do I smack Aether to all team member for  SP optimatlization? 

[XRay]

2 hours ago, DraceEmpressa said:

I have both Airzura and Kinshikumi, he's +10 even, but I still float at tier 19-18. Do I smack Aether to all team member for  SP optimatlization? 

Yeah, here is what my team set up is:

BH!Lyn 5*+10, +Atk, -Res
Firesweep, Reposition, Aether
Swift Sparrow, Sacae's Blessing, Hone Cavalry
Poison Strike
Summoner Support

Olivia 5*+10, +Atk, -HP
Wo Dao [Res], Dance, Aether
Distant Counter, Quick Riposte, Drive Spd
Drive Atk

Reinhardt 5*+10, +Atk, -HP
Dire Thunder, Reposition, Aether
Death Blow, Wings of Mercy, Hone Cavalry
Heavy Blade

I will have to switch out Reinhardt at some point since I got booted last week from Tier 20 to Tier 19, even though I thought I fished enough. I do not think I have a problem staying in Tier 20 this week since I got Zephiel as my bonus unit, but I think I will have to switch Reinhardt to Effie or something.

[DraceEmpressa]

6 minutes ago, XRay said:

Yeah, here is what my team set up is:

BH!Lyn 5*+10, +Atk, -Res
Firesweep, Reposition, Aether
Swift Sparrow, Sacae's Blessing, Hone Cavalry
Poison Strike
Summoner Support

Olivia 5*+10, +Atk, -HP
Wo Dao [Res], Dance, Aether
Distant Counter, Quick Riposte, Drive Spd
Drive Atk

Reinhardt 5*+10, +Atk, -HP
Dire Thunder, Reposition, Aether
Death Blow, Wings of Mercy, Hone Cavalry
Heavy Blade

I will have to switch out Reinhardt at some point since I got booted last week from Tier 20 to Tier 19, even though I thought I fished enough. I do not think I have a problem staying in Tier 20 this week since I got Zephiel as my bonus unit, but I think I will have to switch Reinhardt to Effie or something.

Oh, I see, but kinshikumi is the only unit I like enough to bother +10. I do have melee units like Summer Baby Tiki, Elincia or Myrrh, though. 

[Quies]

I feel like tier lists can limit units for example Eliwood, I thought, he seems bad on the tier list but is honestly in my opinion very powerful.

[redlight]

18 hours ago, American Hector said:

I feel like tier lists can limit units for example Eliwood, I thought, he seems bad on the tier list but is honestly in my opinion very powerful.

I don't know about Gamepress, but Gamepedia doesn't say they're bad for being rather low in the tier. Eliwood's tier even mentions that he's servicable, just requires investment. Only time that something was considered remotely bad was Odin's special hell which no one occupies anymore. Gamepedia operates on arena performance against common arena defense threats, which are provided by players, along with their common builds. Unit's being tested only face their own and weaker color in the score range of tier 19.5. There are also a bunch of rules such as buffs and chills that you can read about. While he seems to be considered low in his tier list, that's only because of his performance against common threats of his own and weaker color. It doesn't reflect his abilities in PvE content. Which is the case with brave bow archers