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DMan64

About the FE Characters...

If you wanted to see another FE Rep, how would you want to see one?  

48 members have voted

  1. 1. Thoughts on FE reps down the line?

    • Yes, doesn't matter who or when.
      18
    • Yes, just don't use a sword.
      20
    • Yes, just DLC down the line.
      1
    • Yes, but has to not use a sword, and should be DLC.
      4
    • Undecided.
      1
    • No, not until next game.
      0
    • No more FE reps, if anything take some away/replace them.
      2
    • Assist Trophies and items will do good from here on out.
      1
    • Maybe as an Echo Fighter
      1


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I always found the too many sword users complaint to be stupid, there aren't that many relevant lance or axe users these days, and what few there are, don't have much to work with, there are only so many ways to poke someone, and then tiki gets brought up and I encourage you to pull together a reasonable moveset because this is awkward and disjointed at best. much as I like tiki (or any manakete for that matter) she is not a realizable character, or just not worth the effort. Hector is a fairly good choice for axe users, but he isn't the most relevant these days unfortunately, outside of heroes he does not exist, he also lacks options for a moveset, ephraim is a solid lance option popularity wise, but there really isn't a ton to work with for a moveset, only real way that could work is if they pulled lance attacks from across the series, but even then as I said earlier, there are only so many ways to poke someone, ephraim is like hector not very relevant either.

Edited by thecrimsonflash

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Somebody remind me what the FE stages, items and assist trophies are in this game. I feel like adding that type of content would be the best middle ground we have at this point. Apologies if someone has mentioned it before, I just popped into this thread.

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I think only 2 stages, Lyn as an assist trophy and (for the first time) the Killing Edge as an item.

FE is a series with extensive supporting casts and cool weapons and i think it would be better represented witg more ATs and items from it's history than more echoes.

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2 hours ago, Alistair said:

Somebody remind me what the FE stages, items and assist trophies are in this game. I feel like adding that type of content would be the best middle ground we have at this point. Apologies if someone has mentioned it before, I just popped into this thread.

As of now we have Castle Siege, Arena Ferox and Colosseum for stages; Killing Edge for items and Lyn as an Assist Trophy. Not sure if we will get more but I personally would like one more Assist Trophy if possible.

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Honestly, I hate the idea of taking away just to feel good about the amount of representation. It just feels like a false sense of satisfaction that takes away from others.

I get that there's a bunch of FE characters...but as some may have seen me argue a bunch of times, I feel like FE sort of has an excuse with how compared to other franchises on its level of notoriety, it has a buttload of main or highly notable characters. Granted, save for making Echo characters (because they don't take much effort to make, and no, I do not believe in "slots"), they keep utilizing sword users (though Robin and Corrin aren't mainly known for their swords, but their magic and shapeshifting powers respectively), but otherwise I think the quantity of characters isn't so bad. If anything, one can make the argument that FE's characters fighting is a crossover in itself, given they don't exactly share the same setting altogether. Four Archanea reps, sure, but one Elibe, one Tellius, and one Hoshido/Nohr. It'd be hard if not impossible to get others outside the FE fanbase to hold this view (whether one in the fanbase agrees or not), but I think it gives a more positive illusion.

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Went away for a bit, and just saw a bit more was added to the conversation, this actually went on for longer much more than I expected and seeing the feedback was quite interesting, so thanks for that everyone.

To offer my final two scents on the matter, I will say this; I think a Three Houses character is possible, even likely, as DLC.  My whole hypothesis for Ultimate is that the base roster will be based on the Fighter Ballot(likely why Chrom was added as he may have been highly requested), as we've seen with many of the fighters so far, all of whom were requested heavily by fans.  This makes sense as Ultimate's development was only 2.5 years, and not a lot of games with new characters came out in that time.  So, characters like Rex and Pyra, Spring Man/Ribbon Girl, possibly a Sun and Moon rep, and a Three Houses rep(Edelgard or Byleth most likely) may be added as DLC as newcomers to promote their respective games on Switch.

When it comes to the Fire Emblem characters, the biggest issue I feel isn't necessarily the number of them; at least not entirely because Echo Fighters don't technically count as full fledged characters, rather it's the fact that they mostly use swords and four of them play very similar to one another.  And from what I've been able to tell, there are people who want a Fire Emblem character who doesn't use a sword, in fact about half of the people who took the poll above(at this point in time 15/29) said they wanted a character who didn't use a sword, while an additional 9 said they wanted a character but didn't care who or when.  Plus, because FE is a franchise that just continues to grow and get more popular over time, it only seems logical to put in a Three Houses character as DLC, after the fans got what they wanted in the base game through their voices in the ballot.

As for right now though, an entirely new FE rep in the base game I feel is very unlikely, as that would cause quite the storm.  The only reason people I feel are generally fine with Chrom is because he isn't "taking a slot" so to speak because he isn't his own fighter and a lot of people wanted him.

EDIT - Feel free to continue discussing your thoughts on this matter, I'd love to see what everyone else thinks of the situation given that there will probably be very different opinions on it.

Edited by DMan64

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The FE roster is sooo bad, it started well enough but with Smash Wii U Sakurai got way ahead of himself adding so many newcomers. Look, I love Roy and I mained him over Marth in Melee, but honestly I would have accepted him remaining cut along with Lucina (who I DID want for Smash U), Corrin, and Chrom not getting added, and instead getting Robin and Azura in Smash Wii U and Lyn and Edelgard in Ultimate. That way the roster would have still had 3.5 sword users but instead of four Marth variations we would've had the elegant swordsman, the heavy swordsman, the sword mage, the water bending lancer, the katana/bow fighter, and the axe user. A far better representation of FE with less characters than we have now. And even if there had to be echoes because it's easier, fine, how about Marth, Ike, Robin, Roy (returning in Smash 5) Azura, Celica, and Edelgard.

I admire Sakurai and would never tell him how to do his job but I do feel he really made some questionable choices the last two games as far as FE 

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16 minutes ago, Book Bro said:

I admire Sakurai and would never tell him how to do his job but I do feel he really made some questionable choices the last two games as far as FE 

He doesn’t always have total and complete say, though. A good example was him wanting Leif in as a Marth clone, but being told to put in Roy instead.

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This is probably the only thing related to Smash Bros. or Fire Emblem I've ever been disappointed with. Chrom is yet another blue-haired sword fighter (which makes the FE roster even more samey), and since he's an echo fighter of Roy, he's basically a clone of a clone. But what I hate the most about this is that, looking at the FE series as a whole, Awakening now has two more representatives than every other Fire Emblem game. It is definitely overrated, and needs to be made irrelevant.

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12 hours ago, Dai said:

He doesn’t always have total and complete say, though. A good example was him wanting Leif in as a Marth clone, but being told to put in Roy instead.

Wasn't Leif being considered just a rumor that was deconfirmed somewhere? At least, from what I heard.

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4 hours ago, NoirCore said:

Wasn't Leif being considered just a rumor that was deconfirmed somewhere? At least, from what I heard.

Yeah I was about to say, I thought that was just a rumour as well.

 

Nothing riles me up more than the hate FE gets from the Smash fandom, hahah. I don't care about the number of reps, I don't care about the weapon variety - they all feel different despite all of them using swords. I care about the character. If Alm gets in as an Echo of Ike, fantastic. Instant secondary, much love. If Micaiah gets in as a Robin Echo, yes, yes, yes! If, say...Eirika, gets in as an entirely new fighter, even better. Maybe I'm just really laid back, maybe I just love FE so much (though everything I've just said extends to every other franchise in Smash soooo...), I just find it really hard to complain about it.

I'm not disputing that the weapon variety could be much better, but honestly? I'm fine with what we've got, if you get what I mean?

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13 hours ago, Lau said:

I'm not disputing that the weapon variety could be much better, but honestly? I'm fine with what we've got, if you get what I mean?

No, that pretty echoes my sentiment more or less.

 

I'm more concern about the stereotype that "Fire Emblem characters has to be clone of another in order to be playable". I may not be on Celica's bandwagon but I still think it would a huge a disservice to her if she's playable.

 

Then again, people are giving piss poor reasons to hate on Chrom's inclusion & I already hate the Smash community in general.

Edited by Zangetsu

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On the subject of Leif, from what I found in a 2002 interview with Famitsu, Sakurai was planning for Leif to be the Marth clone, but he apparently went to IS for approval.  That's when he was shown the, at the time, upcoming Binding Blade, and they decided that Roy would be a better fit.  Apparently Sakurai also mentions that his fire properties helped make him stand out a bit more.

@Zangetsu Well, being frank, the Smash fan base is perhaps one of the most toxic(and honestly, most spoiled) I've seen speaking from personal experience, simply because they feel they have this idea that the game should be one way, which is their way so they can get everything they want, and it they can be quite hypocritical at times(May I remind you this is the same fanbase that loses their mind for people using the best characters in the game to win, I repeat WIN, a tournament, then harass players for winning majors and nationals in a sea of competition where everyone is out to get them, then wonder why said top players antagonize them, want proof, look at the disaster that was EVO 2018 Smash 4 Grand Finals).  Plus, being honest, I feel if individual Smash fans could design Smash games, we'd have other series like Pokemon, Mario, etc, that get over saturated with reps and it'd be the same situation, even if those fighters would be unique and fun, so complaining about a franchises getting a lot of reps just does no one good, especially since for the most part, unless it's intentionally retro, fighters are picked for relevancy and uniqueness, not necessarily the series they came from.  So people really need to understand that how much a series sells doesn't matter in dictating reps, rather if it sells. 

The only exception to that idea is this game which is very much based off fan request. 

Do I have connection to some of these characters and did I want them, no, but I'm glad that they are there because of the effort put into them and somebody wanted them, and besides, they could be very fun to play.

EDIT - On the subject of smash fans, from what I have seen in the Smash community, a good chunk of them are Fire Emblem fans, given that Smash is responsible for introducing the series to many, and from my time on Smash Boards and looking at Smash Mods, many people bring up move set ideas for FE characters, and many people mod in FE characters in Brawl mods.  That said, don't take my statement about over saturation of Pokemon and Mario, etc as some sort of jab on them.  Fire Emblem fans would be just as guilty if they had their way.

Edited by DMan64

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The Fire Emblem reps in Smash are fine, honestly.

-Marth, Ike, Robin, and Corrin are all unique.
-Roy is as different from Marth as Ganondorf is to Captain Falcon, or Luigi is to Mario. He's fine. Chrom is sort of the same way, being only kinda-sorta similar, since he has moves from both Roy AND Ike.
-Lucina is really the only complete carbon-copy character.

So of the seven reps so far, four are unique, two are only kinda-sorta similar, and one is a total clone. That's very fair.

As for the number of reps, that's also fine. FE is a very character-centric series and it's very popular in Japan, plus it's gained tons of popularity throughout the rest of the world. Given the character-centric nature of the series and how popular it is, it makes sense that it has a lot of characters. It's like Castlevania, that series has so many popular music tracks and it has now been given a great many tracks in Smash Bros.

I'd go so far as to say one or two more FE characters would be perfectly reasonable. Lyn, Edelgard, Ephraim, and Micaiah would all be very good choices. Lyn has already been a huge glaring omission, she's proven over and over how important she is to the franchise and has continued to be just as requested as Chrom. Edelgard would be excellent for axe representation, and would be a more recent and new-school rep. Ephraim is the best choice for lance representation, and Micaiah for pure magic. Or, if they want to go the villain route, Hardin or the Black Knight would be two good candidates.

My point: FE does not have too many reps in Smash and people complaining about it are silly.

Edited by Fire Emblem Fan

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6 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

The Fire Emblem reps in Smash are fine, honestly.

-Marth, Ike, Robin, and Corrin are all unique.
-Roy is as different from Marth as Ganondorf is to Captain Falcon, or Luigi is to Mario. He's fine. Chrom is sort of the same way, being only kinda-sorta similar, since he has moves from both Roy AND Ike.
-Lucina is really the only complete carbon-copy character.

So of the seven reps so far, four are unique, two are only kinda-sorta similar, and one is a total clone. That's very fair.

As for the number of reps, that's also fine. FE is a very character-centric series and it's very popular in Japan, plus it's gained tons of popularity throughout the rest of the world. Given the character-centric nature of the series and how popular it is, it makes sense that it has a lot of characters. It's like Castlevania, that series has so many popular music tracks and it has now been given a great many tracks in Smash Bros.

I'd go so far as to say one or two more FE characters would be perfectly reasonable. Lyn, Edelgard, Ephraim, and Micaiah would all be very good choices. Lyn has already been a huge glaring omission, she's proven over and over how important she is to the franchise and has continued to be just as requested as Chrom. Edelgard would be excellent for axe representation, and would be a more recent and new-school rep. Ephraim is the best choice for lance representation, and Micaiah for pure magic. Or, if they want to go the villain route, Hardin or the Black Knight would be two good candidates.

My point: FE does not have too many reps in Smash and people complaining about it are silly.

Yeah, I agree. Especially since Pokemon has 6 Gen 1 reps (Ivysaur, Charizard, Squirtle, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo) but only has 1 Gen 4, Gen 2 and Gen 6 rep (Lucario, Pichu, and Greninja, respectively).

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17 hours ago, DMan64 said:

EDIT - On the subject of smash fans, from what I have seen in the Smash community, a good chunk of them are Fire Emblem fans, given that Smash is responsible for introducing the series to many, and from my time on Smash Boards and looking at Smash Mods, many people bring up move set ideas for FE characters, and many people mod in FE characters in Brawl mods.  That said, don't take my statement about over saturation of Pokemon and Mario, etc as some sort of jab on them.  Fire Emblem fans would be just as guilty if they had their way.

Guilty as charged! I know for a fact I would over expose the hell out not just Fire Emblem, but Zelda, Kid Icarus, & DK as well. Not to mention incredibly questionable choices.

 

Why have Sylux when you can have Anthony Higgs?

 

Mach Rider? Nah, Urban Champion are better retro pick.

 

Waluigi time? More like Lanky's time

 

& so forth

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I'm certain the Black Knight will appear in some capacity, though I'd lean more towards boss or AT. He's a stand-out villain, and many of the Mii costumes have been upgraded to having full appearances, whether AT or playable.

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1 hour ago, Johann said:

I'm certain the Black Knight will appear in some capacity, though I'd lean more towards boss or AT. He's a stand-out villain, and many of the Mii costumes have been upgraded to having full appearances, whether AT or playable.

He's probably the best choice for FE villain they could choose, and could theoretically be a slower echo of Ike. But here arises the problem with the FE roster again. I know "slots" aren't a thing in Smash but to an extent I believe Sakurai does want to be as balanced as possible among series, and while theoretically he could add Chrom, Black Knight, Celica, Lyn, and Edelgard all in one game since they all represent something different, really, it's pushing it to add even one of them after adding 3 FE characters last game. And likely, that one was Chrom. Who represents the least amount of "new" qualities within the existing FE roster. BK, while also an echo from a game with a playable rep, would be the first FE villain. Celica, if an echo, would still be female representation. Lyn and Edelgard would only work with a new moveset. But Chrom? There's nothing interesting about him except the fact he's a mixed clone, which any of the other possibilities could have also done.

Kinda went on a tangent there but tldr is I think BK would be great but doubt he'll get in now that we have Chrom for this game.

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I think for the new potential mode with bosses they seem to be hinting at we’ll get Grima or Medeus as a boss. Maybe even the BK.

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Yes, doesn't matter who or when. Roy, Lucina and Chrom are an odd series of semi-mistakes, but that doesn't mean I don't still want better done FE characters.

So a combination of Smash 4's FE roster being in need of pruning, Roy and Lucina existing in the first place, "everybody's here!", and Chrom has resulted in a VERY redundant FE cast. We're currently looking at 7 FE reps, and 4 of those reps are Marth, Marth's clone, Luigified Marth, and Luigified Marth's clone. If Lucina and/or Chrom were an Ike echo/clone, we'd have at least one less Marth based moveset. If not for "everybody's here" we could've dropped Lucina or Roy, or demoted one or both to costumes, again, reducing our Marth numbers. And then there's just the obvious of them being added in the first place despite the redundancy.

But anyway, the two I still want the most are Edelgard as a new character, and Celica as a Robin echo. Would also be fond of Hector as a possible Edelgard echo, and/or BK as an Ike echo. But honestly there are so few FE characters you could choose that I wouldn't be happy with.

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On 10-8-2018 at 7:00 AM, trebl900 said:

This is probably the only thing related to Smash Bros. or Fire Emblem I've ever been disappointed with. Chrom is yet another blue-haired sword fighter (which makes the FE roster even more samey), and since he's an echo fighter of Roy, he's basically a clone of a clone. But what I hate the most about this is that, looking at the FE series as a whole, Awakening now has two more representatives than every other Fire Emblem game. It is definitely overrated, and needs to be made irrelevant.

Awakening getting so much favoritism definitely seems weird since despite its status as having saved the series Awakening has been playing second fiddle to Fates for some time now whenever it came to representation.

But it probably all rests on a happy accident. In Smash Wii-U Robin was a good representation of the newest game and he had interesting mechanics to work with while Lucina was such a breakout character and so easy to implement that it would have been weird not to do so. Because of the ''everyone is here!'' mentality neither of those could be cut from the roster. Chrom doesn't have Lucina's popularity but he was just as easy to implement and was gently teased to show up beforehand. 

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On 8/11/2018 at 9:27 PM, Johann said:

I'm certain the Black Knight will appear in some capacity, though I'd lean more towards boss or AT. He's a stand-out villain, and many of the Mii costumes have been upgraded to having full appearances, whether AT or playable.

His best chance would be as Ike’s Echo Fighter. It would make sense, lore-wise. 

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I was thinking quite a bit about possible Echo Fighters for a bit, and honestly there are some many characters that could easily get echos.  But, in terms of possible Echo Fighters for the other FE characters, here's what I think is possible. 

For the record, I'm not saying these would be character's I would want, nor would they get in; I just think if we get more Echo Fighters for FE, these characters I feel are the most likely.

Ike )

1.  The Black Knight - In my opinion he has the best likelihood as an Ike echo.  Not only does it make sense from a lore perspective, but it'd be the first FE villain and he had a Mii costume in Smash 4.  As for how he could be different, of course there'd be the aesthetic changes to give him a more imposing appearance, but perhaps he could also have somewhat slower mobility, to trade off the fact that he has a lot of weight, leading to him surviving for much longer.

2.  Hector - This maybe be an unpopular opinion, but I can totally see him being an Ike Echo, just with maybe a different special to be his ax throw, and maybe a different up special.  Otherwise, I feel, he could be a slightly slower or faster Ike, with less range on his ax, though he does a bit more damage to compensate, though hit boxes would be adjusted to account for the ax having a wider blade, as apposed to the length of a sword.  Like Chrom, Hector has popularity going for him, so I don't see it out of the realm of possibility.

Robin)

1. Morgan - Definitely not the most popular choice, especially since it's another Awakening rep and she's not as important, but hear me out.  In terms of aesthetics, Morgan and Robin are very similar, and she(or he) likely wouldn't take much time to develop as a result.  Second, both are fundamentally very similar, though do have differences that could be translated to smash.  For starters, if she starts out in the tactician class, Morgan starts out with a fire based tome, thus she could potentially have a higher focus on fire magic than Robin.  She also starts with a steel sword if I remember correctly, and this can be made to have infinite uses like the bronze sword, and it could be slightly more useful, though it would be no where near as potent as the Levin Sword.  Also if Robin still has pair up, and it calls upon heroes from the 1st gen of Awakening characters, Morgan can do the same for 2nd gen Awakening characters. Though it is more likely that she could just be a bit smaller  than Robin and have her animations and taunts be more reflective of her personality.

2. Celica - A similar case can be made for Celica, she's equipped with the Lady Blade which has infinite uses, but isn't as useful as the Levin Sword.  And she could have the same specials as Robin, though like Gaiden/Echoes, she'd always have access to them, but it damages herself(the only exception being Nosferatu).  Perhaps that may be too much of a change, but if she has the exact same moves and frame data as Robin, she would still likely count as an Echo Fighter, her animations would probably be changed slightly to be a bit more graceful though.  Not to mention, given that she comes from a game called Echoes, it'd be kind of a nice little joke.  Compared to Morgan, I feel like she as an Echo Fighter would definitely be more different than Robin, though I feel Morgan is more likely, despite Celica being far more popular.  This is due to how recent Echoes came out and the fact that Morgan is just inherently very similar to Robin, making her a quick and easy candidate.

Corrin)

Kana - This was really the only option that made sense.  Kana, like Morgan, isn't the most popular choice for an FE echo, but she(or he) and Corrin are still both very similar.  So at best, she would probably be a smaller, slightly faster Corrin.  Though, seeing as Echo Fighters don't have to be completely identical to the fighter they were based off of, it could be possible that perhaps Kana could get away with not having a sword at all.  It may seem like too much of a change, and is very unlikely, but hear me out.  Given that most of Corrin's attacks pull from her ability to turn into a dragon, any attack that did use a sword could easily be reworked to fit the shape shifting nature of the character (ex: for up and forward air, instead of swinging a sword, Kana swings her transformed arm.)  Thus, many of her attacks would have similar range, similar animation, and the same frame data; she'd still play very similarly to Corrin, the only difference being is that instead of sometimes using a sword, she only uses her body.  It may be a stretch for an echo fighter, but I don't see it out of the realm of possibility.  Animation wise, her attacks, taunts, and victory poses, would probably be given a more playful spin on them, given the characters's personality, though that's about it.

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3 hours ago, DMan64 said:

2.  Hector - This maybe be an unpopular opinion, but I can totally see him being an Ike Echo, just with maybe a different special to be his ax throw, and maybe a different up special.  Otherwise, I feel, he could be a slightly slower or faster Ike, with less range on his ax, though he does a bit more damage to compensate, though hit boxes would be adjusted to account for the ax having a wider blade, as apposed to the length of a sword.  Like Chrom, Hector has popularity going for him, so I don't see it out of the realm of possibility.

If that's how Hector gets in, then I really don't want Sakurai & his team to do anything with Fire Emblem anymore. As well thought out your "B special moves" are, that's not how Hector should be represented. There's far too much potential for Hector. I like echoes, they're great excuse to put in as many characters they can be, but Hector deserve better than just being a clone.

 

Otherwise, your suggestions are sound except for Kana. They're way too small compare to Corrin

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@Zangetsu  Yeah, like I said, these aren't necessarily characters that I want, nor would that be how I would want them, especially in regards to Hector.  I just feel like it is a possibility to be taken into account.  I definitely feel Hector should be more unique if he gets in somehow, but I do think people are using the fact that he uses an ax to meaning he would definitely play different than the others, when he could just as easily be made into Ike with an ax (again, not something I would want for him, as if that were to happen, I'd rather not have him, but I could see it happening).

As for Kana, size may go against her, although I wouldn't say that necessarily roles her out.  Young Link in Smash Melee was a Link clone, and while sure he may not have been that much smaller, there was still some sort of size difference.  So in my mind, Kana makes sense because the character would literally just be Corrin, just smaller and maybe a bit faster and lighter.  Not to mention, the character is really the only one that is similar to Corrin in terms of what they are capable of, at least one that I'm aware of.  And if Chrom and Dark Samus have different properties compared to the character's their based on (Dark Samus' mobility and electric effects and Chrom's special and blade properties).  A size difference, at least to me, seems like it would fit a similar criteria.

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