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Should Final Smash meters be competitively legal?

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1 hour ago, Zangetsu said:

Why? The Final Smash meter is obviously targeting to competitive play. It would be wrong to not test the waters

Because there's too much potential for abuse. Simple as that. I cannot speak for anyone else, but having played Super Smash Bros. Crusade, I personally think most of the points @Glennstavos mentioned hold water...

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

It still sounds way too abusable - who's to say that I can't just snipe you with my Final Smash as you're trying to recover? Or wait until I have you dead to rights at a ledge? Of course, OHKO Final Smashes are still a concern too...

With all due respect, how’s that any different from a regular fighting strategy?

That being said, I don’t think they will be legal, mostly because it will make some players rely on them a lot which could make matches unnecessarily longer. Specials moves making matches longer is also a problem in other fighting games. They being unbalanced also happens a lot. Take Magneto’s Gravity Squeeze from Marvel vs Capcom.

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24 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

With all due respect, how’s that any different from a regular fighting strategy?

That being said, I don’t think they will be legal, mostly because it will make some players rely on them a lot which could make matches unnecessarily longer. Specials moves making matches longer is also a problem in other fighting games. They being unbalanced also happens a lot. Take Magneto’s Gravity Squeeze from Marvel vs Capcom.

I suppose it isn't, other than the fact that Smash itself is very different from other fighting games in the first place. Getting caught by Mario Finale or whatever offstage is practically instant death. 

Edited by Shadow Mir

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Gonna try to counter some points here

15 hours ago, Nym said:

I know but I meant the one that can insta kills like Critical hit.

15 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

or the ones that still instant kill like Marth and Game&Watch.

15 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The problem is that we have instant kill Final Smashes and those like Game & Watch's, which render the user invincible for the duration of the Final Smash...

These are easily avoidable, especially Marth's. Critical Hit is the most predictable Final Smash in the series, if you're constantly getting hit by it in a 1v1, that's a you problem. Game&Watch's Final Smash, the new one, can be avoided by jumping over it and that's not counting the fact that it jumps back first before attempting to carry anyone off stage.

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

It still sounds way too abusable - who's to say that I can't just snipe you with my Final Smash as you're trying to recover? Or wait until I have you dead to rights at a ledge?

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

 Getting caught by Mario Finale or whatever offstage is practically instant death. 

I mean.....that's the point of Smash. You're supposed to keep the opponent from coming back onto the stage. I don't see what the issue is here. Sure, it's easier to edgeguard with a Final Smash but i still don't see the issue. Getting caught by Mario Finale offstage could be an insta-kill, but so are spike moves, Mario's Cape and F.L.U.D.D, getting Wall of Pain'd by Jigglypuff, etc. 

15 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

The rate at which you build up final smashes is too frequent. Dealing 10% or taking 10% damage are both equivelant to a tenth of your meter. So if you keep pace with your opponent and live to 100% on every stock, then you've earned two final smashes per life. The sheer frequency of earned final smashes is going to significantly drop how long you can survive in this mode, but that's still just absurd and you shouldn't be earning one final smash per life unless you thoroughly outplay and out-survive your opponent.

To be fair, the rate at which the meter builds may have just been for demonstration. Yeah, it filled up fast in the footage but so did Little Mac's KO gauge when he was revealed for Smash 4 and yet in the actual game, it's a bit of a slow charge.

15 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Furthermore getting rewarded this much for taking damage is dumb. Marth can never land a hit on his opponent until 100% then blow his OHKO FS to gain the lead. Yes said final smash can be feasibly avoided, but comeback mechanics are never this strong in any competitive game. Lucario is one of the most aggregious comeback mechanics I can think of in any competitive game, but even he doesn't earn unblockable, invincible moves at max aura

Uhh, you know that this isn't a viable strategy, right? Why would anyone ever just take hits? You bring up Lucario's Aura as an example but even the best Lucario players don't just take hits. They try to get the lead first so even when the max Aura kicks in, they are still in the lead. Also, again, Marth's Final Smash is very easily dodgeable. Honestly, Bayonetta's Final Smash is the only real problem here and even then, we don't know how it's affected by the meter.

15 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Final Smashes that are viable in 1v1 would arbitrarily help out characters that normally are balanced around difficulty securing a kill. As if heavyweights needed another reason to be unviable, they just don't get as much mileage on a final smash. 

I dunno, Final Smashes could help close the gap between some characters. Bowser can go from being meh to being semi-decent, for example. Jigglypuff can go from being the worst character in the game to decent.

15 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

If every stock is secured via a Final Smash I highly doubt it will make the game more "spectator friendly". 

What makes you think every stock would be secured with a Final Smash? 

15 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

This would be a disaster of a mode for watching just as much as playing since it will promote camping, overuse of defensive options, and really just turns up to 11 the worst aspects of Brawl/Smash 4.

14 hours ago, Jedi said:

if meter is gained by doing nothing (which i've heard some reports of from people watching the trailer). It'd become a very campy game and potentially even if it was just getting hit and taking hits, everything would be just slow and safe.

Very much like the brawl meta, so I don't think they'll be very well implimented for serious matches.

On the contrary, i think it could promote more aggressive playstyles. Knock out the opponent before they get a chance to use their Final Smash. 

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Well, unfortunately, I think "wait and see" is the wrong mentality to be taking here...

That makes no sense, every time a new fighting game comes out, the community tests the water with the new stuff the game introduced. We tested Customs at Sm4sh' first EVO, why shouldn't we test Final Smash meters?

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1 hour ago, Armagon said:

These are easily avoidable, especially Marth's. Critical Hit is the most predictable Final Smash in the series, if you're constantly getting hit by it in a 1v1, that's a you problem. Game&Watch's Final Smash, the new one, can be avoided by jumping over it and that's not counting the fact that it jumps back first before attempting to carry anyone off stage.

Or they could've gotten you into a position where you couldn't dodge it...

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

I dunno, Final Smashes could help close the gap between some characters. Bowser can go from being meh to being semi-decent, for example. Jigglypuff can go from being the worst character in the game to decent.

Or it could just widen the gap instead since some of them are bound to be unbalanced...

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

That makes no sense, every time a new fighting game comes out, the community tests the water with the new stuff the game introduced. We tested Customs at Sm4sh' first EVO, why shouldn't we test Final Smash meters?

Injustice had Scorpion (as in, Mortal Kombat's Scorpion) as a playable character. Some people were worried about how he played - unlike Injustice, which has characters block by moving away from their opponent, Mortal Kombat uses a block button. Also, one of his moves allows him to teleport on the other side of his opponent. Some pros noticed that they saw players that weren't even that good that were still winning because Scorpion forced a guessing game where no player could be right on every time. It was so bad that people actually considered leaving the competitive scene. Going back to Smash, I think that allowing Final Smashes has the same potential to ruin Ultimate's competitive scene. Does anyone want a game where every match is a guessing game where the first person to screw up is the loser??? I sure wouldn't, either as a player or as a spectator.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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1 hour ago, Armagon said:

These are easily avoidable, especially Marth's. Critical Hit is the most predictable Final Smash in the series, if you're constantly getting hit by it in a 1v1, that's a you problem. Game&Watch's Final Smash, the new one, can be avoided by jumping over it and that's not counting the fact that it jumps back first before attempting to carry anyone off stage.

Marth can true combo into Final Smash from F-Air and especially N-Air at a variety of percents in Smash 4. Those are some of his primary spacing and combo tools, and in general Marth is not a combo based character but finding such setups took me just a minute after booting the game. And in ultimate landing lag has been cut by about 40 percent for the average aerial so he'll be able to do so at even more generous combo ranges. Dodging Marth's final smash sounds easy in a vaccuum, but avoiding the moves he was going to use anyway? You would have to more than outplay Marth to avoid this setup at all times. And I'm only concerned with scenarios with two players of equal skill level. I'm willing to bet that every final smash that would be viable in a 1v1 setting can be comboed into. Roy, whom I only checked since I thought his was also OHKO, it's not, he needs about 20% on the opponent for kills at center stage, just Dthrow into Final Smash for a combo in addition to landing many many of his moves at various percents.

As for Game & Watch, we don't know if that's a grab hitbox right as it appears or right as it starts moving. If it's the former, Dthrow > FS is free.

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To be fair, the rate at which the meter builds may have just been for demonstration. Yeah, it filled up fast in the footage but so did Little Mac's KO gauge when he was revealed for Smash 4 and yet in the actual game, it's a bit of a slow charge.

It is possible for the meter to be different on release. But don't assume balance changes that aren't there yet. We'll test the mode when it comes out. But until then I'm going to critique what I can see now, not what might change because we are not in charge of balancing this mode. That would be like seeing Bayonetta's trailer and only discussing what she'd be like AFTER balance changes. We weren't idiots, she was coming out in three months. And all smash direct footage we've seen is of the most current build of the game. Even Mac's trailer was a whole nine months before the 3DS release and his trailer had us beleving his neutral B charged the KO Punch (since that's what he was doing when we saw his meter that time). We didn't have any indication it went up mostly through taking damage.

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Uhh, you know that this isn't a viable strategy, right? Why would anyone ever just take hits? You bring up Lucario's Aura as an example but even the best Lucario players don't just take hits. They try to get the lead first so even when the max Aura kicks in, they are still in the lead. Also, again, Marth's Final Smash is very easily dodgeable. Honestly, Bayonetta's Final Smash is the only real problem here and even then, we don't know how it's affected by the meter.

The whole point of that point is to provide example of how potentially strong these final smashes can be if you don't even have to play the game until you start glowing. Obviously two players of equal skill level are generally blow for blow, stock for stock. And again, don't assume balance changes that don't exist.

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I dunno, Final Smashes could help close the gap between some characters. Bowser can go from being meh to being semi-decent, for example. Jigglypuff can go from being the worst character in the game to decent.

It will also kill already poor characters like Lucas that have a garbage FS for 1v1. He's already low tier. Are you willing to make the call which characters should take a hit in viablility and which ones shouldn't? Because that's what the community would be doing if we flipped on this mode, giving Marth and Bayonetta (already great to top tier characters) the arbitrary boost.  

We saw Mario's Final Smash in the direct as well, how easily you could avoid it even if you were hit by the slow, predictable projectile. That's the case in Smash 4 as well, it's just a terrible move at base. These moves are built generally with free for alls in mind. And while some clearly are viable for 1v1s, it's a shotgun means of balance that doesn't take the game's actual 1v1 meta into account.

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What makes you think every stock would be secured with a Final Smash? 

Obviously bad ones like Mario and Lucas won't. I'm talking about the obviously viable characters in this setting. The ones that kill at center stage at 30% and you can probably combo into. Yes the kill power will probably be turned down but the setups will still exist through combos, traps, etc. Why wait to kill somebody honestly with a setup or some risky smash attack at 120% when you can get them earlier with a FS which are universally unblockable, invincible, and not terribly slow for traps, to say nothing of the combos that will exist.

Furthermore, if I may repeat myself. You are guarenteed to earn one final smash per stock and likely a second one upon respawning since getting hit by your opponent's ~40% attack is 40% progress toward your next one. Or you'll earn a second one organically if you and the other guy keep pace and survive to 100%. So that's 1-3 final smashes per stock, most likely 2.

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On the contrary, i think it could promote more aggressive playstyles. Knock out the opponent before they get a chance to use their Final Smash. 

Are you keeping up? You maintain Final smashes and Final Smash progress after death. We seen the latter in the direct, so there is no reason to expect otherwise for the former. If I'm at kill percent and knock you out, I have gained no advantage. Because you still have your final smash and I'm still just as at risk of getting hit by it, or any moves that combo or set up into it. My only options are to avoid and read the FS or the relevant attacks that setup into it. And if you respond to this with potential, unseen balance updates to finals smashes, don't expect me to reply to you because I am tired of what ifs. 

Edited by Glennstavos

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How about this: if you haven't played in a Smash Tourney, then this doesn't directly concern you and-- really --you have no say in the matter.

Hardly anybody here actually qualifies as part of the competitive Smash community; thus, why on earth are we trying to decide anything for them? (Not that there's a remote chance we even could, considering this is completely the wrong forum for a "debate" like this).

Edited by The DanMan

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Or it could just widen the gap instead since some of them are bound to be unbalanced...

It'll do both. While Sakurai does his best to balance the game, no characters are created equal. Same goes for their Final Smashes.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Going back to Smash, I think that allowing Final Smashes has the same potential to ruin Ultimate's competitive scene. Does anyone want a game where every match is a guessing game where the first person to screw up is the loser??? I sure wouldn't, either as a player or as a spectator.

That's why we test it first. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work and we don't use it. Simple as that.

2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Marth can true combo into Final Smash from F-Air and especially N-Air at a variety of percents in Smash 4.

That's Smash 4, this is Ultimate.

2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

And in ultimate landing lag has been cut by about 40 percent for the average aerial so he'll be able to do so at even more generous combo ranges.

But there's a lot of factors with that though. You're assuming he can combo into Critical Hit every time. That's not how it works.

2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

The whole point of that point is to provide example of how potentially strong these final smashes can be if you don't even have to play the game until you start glowing.

But no one in their right mind would wait until they get a charged meter to start playing.

2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

It will also kill already poor characters like Lucas that have a garbage FS for 1v1. He's already low tier. Are you willing to make the call which characters should take a hit in viablility and which ones shouldn't? Because that's what the community would be doing if we flipped on this mode, giving Marth and Bayonetta (already great to top tier characters) the arbitrary boost.  

Again, not every character is created equal. Final Smashes would affect certain characters' viability, yes, but you act like that's a bad thing.

2 hours ago, The DanMan said:

How about this: if you haven't played in a Smash Tourney, then this doesn't directly concern you and-- really --you have no say in the matter.

Hardly anybody here actually qualifies as part of the competitive Smash community; thus, why on earth are we trying to decide anything for them? (Not that there's a remote chance we even could, considering this is completely the wrong forum for a "debate" like this).

I agree that this isn't the best forum for this discussion but that's a pretty bad mindset to have. Sure, most of us here are tiny, almost insignificant in the competitive scene but that doesn't make our opinion any less valid. 

Now, if you don't care about the competitive scene at all, then yeah, this discussion is pointless.

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7 minutes ago, Armagon said:

But no one in their right mind would wait until they get a charged meter to start playing.

That's it. That's what I get for responding. 

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6 hours ago, Armagon said:

But no one in their right mind would wait until they get a charged meter to start playing.

Well, consider this infinitely more likely scenario: Marth gets his first kill normally, managing to fill his Final Smash meter in the process, then combos into his Final Smash to claim stock number two. This either wins the game outright or if not, puts the opponent in a godawful position, where they would need to play perfectly or hope the Marth player misplays big time to have any hope of coming from behind.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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Whether Final Smashes become legal in tournaments is a matter of balance and perception. Do some characters have stronger FS's than others? Is this good or bad? Does the game become centralized around them? Does it encourage camping until your meter fills? Even if FS's are only meant for casual play, you still expect them to be somewhat balanced. So the community will decide whether they make the game more varied and exciting, or less so.

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We’ll have to wait and see on this, I could see people testing it out. I’m not entirely sure on where I stand yet despite my comment on it potentially making the game more campy.

although this has one huge edge over the thought of customs back in 4.

They wont take a stupid amount of time to unlock to fully test.

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This makes me wonder, was there other fighting games where special moves where banned? Some years ago I remember people complaining that Phoenix’s and Magneto’s specials where too strong in Marvel vs Capcom 3.

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8 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

This makes me wonder, was there other fighting games where special moves where banned? Some years ago I remember people complaining that Phoenix’s and Magneto’s specials where too strong in Marvel vs Capcom 3.

The only compitive bans that have stuck in any game are Akuma in Street Fighter 2 and obvious boss characters in some SNK games.

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I don't think it should be the standard ruleset, but I think it'd be fun as an alternative ruleset. I don't think we have alternate ruleset tournaments often enough though. I understand that the focus should always be on standard play, but it's fun to deviate from the rules sometimes.

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On 10/08/2018 at 12:18 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Well, unfortunately, I think "wait and see" is the wrong mentality to be taking here...

There is literally zero risk from just testing the waters and seeing whether or not it's viable. In cases like these, "wait and see" is never the wrong mentality.

At the moment, I think the FS meter is similar to custom moves as far as tournament play is concerned. The community tested out custom moves, but then found out they were a horrible idea and scrapped them. However, those test matches are valuable, as we now know that custom moves are bad, rather than just guessing.

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37 minutes ago, The_antithesis said:

There is literally zero risk from just testing the waters and seeing whether or not it's viable. In cases like these, "wait and see" is never the wrong mentality.

At the moment, I think the FS meter is similar to custom moves as far as tournament play is concerned. The community tested out custom moves, but then found out they were a horrible idea and scrapped them. However, those test matches are valuable, as we now know that custom moves are bad, rather than just guessing.

I guess, but at the same time, we still have OHKO Final Smashes - is a tournament dominated by Marths and other characters with OHKO Final Smashes really what we need to see to know that it's a terrible idea? I'd rather not see crap like this:

On 8/10/2018 at 6:26 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Marth gets his first kill normally, managing to fill his Final Smash meter in the process, then combos into his Final Smash to claim stock number two. This either wins the game outright or if not, puts the opponent in a godawful position, where they would need to play perfectly or hope the Marth player misplays big time to have any hope of coming from behind.

And again, I would direct you to Injustice and Scorpion. Anyway, why exactly were custom moves deemed to be a bad idea?

Edited by Shadow Mir

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Anyway, why exactly were custom moves deemed to be a bad idea?

There a pain in the ass to unlock. There's thousands of them and that meant every set-up would need to have them all unlocked. It's easier to unlock customs on 3DS cause of Smash Run but that means transferring all of the unlocked customs to each Wii U, which could take hours.

Customs also drastically affect the meta. See, if we legalize Final Smash meters, the meta would change but it'd still be easy to keep track of. With customs moves, so many factors become appearant. Characters start to get hundreds of different match-ups. The meta actually becomes a mess. One Villager custom allows you to always time-out the opponent. Personally, i'd rather get OHKO'd than get timed-out.

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I guess, but at the same time, we still have OHKO Final Smashes - is a tournament dominated by Marths and other characters with OHKO Final Smashes really what we need to see to know that it's a terrible idea? I'd rather not see crap like this:

Actually, it's not quite that dire. May I remind you that Smash 4 Little Mac effectively has a chargeable final smash similar to Marth's in the form of his KO punch (and yes, you can get a TOD combo using it), and he's still bottom tier!

In most fighting games, TOD combos are not the be-all and end all of the meta. If they were, offstage footstall combos would be the only thin you would see in tournaments.

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24 minutes ago, The_antithesis said:

Actually, it's not quite that dire. May I remind you that Smash 4 Little Mac effectively has a chargeable final smash similar to Marth's in the form of his KO punch (and yes, you can get a TOD combo using it), and he's still bottom tier!

In most fighting games, TOD combos are not the be-all and end all of the meta. If they were, offstage footstall combos would be the only thin you would see in tournaments.

Except his doesn't work at any percentage, unlike Marth's (I think it requires around 50% before you can KO with it). He's also crippled by his light weight and poor recovery. Oh, and he loses his charge when he dies, in addition to losing it if it isn't used after a length of time.

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

There a pain in the ass to unlock. There's thousands of them and that meant every set-up would need to have them all unlocked. It's easier to unlock customs on 3DS cause of Smash Run but that means transferring all of the unlocked customs to each Wii U, which could take hours.

Customs also drastically affect the meta. See, if we legalize Final Smash meters, the meta would change but it'd still be easy to keep track of. With customs moves, so many factors become appearant. Characters start to get hundreds of different match-ups. The meta actually becomes a mess. One Villager custom allows you to always time-out the opponent. Personally, i'd rather get OHKO'd than get timed-out.

Fair enough. 

I would imagine that due to how risky that approaching someone whose Final Smash is ready is, that could contribute to having more time outs.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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21 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Except his doesn't work at any percentage, unlike Marth's (I think it requires around 50% before you can KO with it)

KO Punch can start KO'ing at 30%

22 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would imagine that due to how risky that approaching someone whose Final Smash is ready is, that could contribute to having more time outs.

Not really. if anything, Final Smashes would end the match quicker. If both players just stand there, then it becomes stalling, which is against the rules and could potentially disqualify them. Timing-out isn't necessarily against the rules (it depends on how you do it) but it's an actually disrespectful thing to do in competitive play.

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On 8/13/2018 at 3:16 PM, Armagon said:

KO Punch can start KO'ing at 30%

Okay then. However, him living to get the KO Upperciut is a rather generous assumption, because one, he has poor recovery, and two, he loses the charge if he dies. It doesn't help that the KO Uppercut is mostly filled by taking damage.

On 8/13/2018 at 3:16 PM, Armagon said:

Not really. if anything, Final Smashes would end the match quicker. If both players just stand there, then it becomes stalling, which is against the rules and could potentially disqualify them. Timing-out isn't necessarily against the rules (it depends on how you do it) but it's an actually disrespectful thing to do in competitive play.

I dunno about this - I still think it would encourage campy, defensive play, and degenerate matches into massive guessing games where each side hopes the other screws up royally. I also have concerns that it would lead to a "rich get richer" scenario - it's already bad enough having to approach, do we really want to make it even riskier to have to do so?

Edited by Shadow Mir

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Since we don’t know exactly how the Metagame of ultimate is going to turn out, the best course of action would probably be to test it in tournaments and see if it should stay in competitive play or not.

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Final Smash meter should be ban if they actually aren't viable. If they ban it without testing it, then that's a major insult to the developers since it was cater towards competitive play.

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On 8/16/2018 at 11:58 PM, Zangetsu said:

Final Smash meter should be ban if they actually aren't viable. If they ban it without testing it, then that's a major insult to the developers since it was cater towards competitive play.

At the same time, I feel it's important to note - and this was said earlier - Final Smashes aren't balanced around 1v1 play.

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