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1% Critical Hit

Did anyone made a comparison of Valentia and Valm over time?

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Or a previous discussion of how it changed to become Valm?

When I finished Shadows of Valentia, I began to question several things from Awakening and one of them was why Tiki went to Valm. Did she decided to sleep there so someone couldn't stole the stone that she had to guard? Is the Demon's Ingle the only reference of Duma being a thing? And how they moved the entirety of the Sage's Hamlet to replace it with a port?

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I compared the maps recently (offline). But as another thread said, no one expected to be called out on the changes because Awakening was written as a swansong before it's success. That and they didn't expect English audiences to see the differences either.

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11 hours ago, Mad-manakete said:

That and they didn't expect English audiences to see the differences either.

They certainly had every reason to think that when it came to Valm since even hardcore Fire emblem fans weren't very interested in Gaiden at the time. But since the Western fans did play Shadow dragon it was a little silly that they expected people not to notice that previously fertile Altea and part of Archenea suddenly had a desert in it. 

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6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

They certainly had every reason to think that when it came to Valm since even hardcore Fire emblem fans weren't very interested in Gaiden at the time. But since the Western fans did play Shadow dragon it was a little silly that they expected people not to notice that previously fertile Altea and part of Archenea suddenly had a desert in it. 

Do you mean the Mamorthod Desert?

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21 minutes ago, 1% Critical Hit said:

Do you mean the Mamorthod Desert?

I'm not sure about the name but I'm talking about Laurent's recruitment chapter which takes place in a desert somewhere in western Archenea. The chapter where you recruit Gregor and Nowi seems to take place in Altea which is also a desert by the time of Awakening and no longer an island. 

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I would say that the world changed far more than it was possible, in a 1000 years almost nothing changes, heck how minimal are these changes? Well even a million years ago Italy was not combined with the island of sicily and yet we see the Island of Talys just make a big landbridge to the rest of Archanea

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3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I'm not sure about the name but I'm talking about Laurent's recruitment chapter which takes place in a desert somewhere in western Archenea. The chapter where you recruit Gregor and Nowi seems to take place in Altea which is also a desert by the time of Awakening and no longer an island. 

Mamorthod Desert is where Thabes is located, according to SoV.

3 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

I would say that the world changed far more than it was possible, in a 1000 years almost nothing changes, heck how minimal are these changes? Well even a million years ago Italy was not combined with the island of sicily and yet we see the Island of Talys just make a big landbridge to the rest of Archanea

Those geological changes are what makes me question a lot from Awakening. They also got rid of the prominent Ballistae from ol' Archanea and they didn't replace it with something like the Scorpio or a Polybolos, but Tellius, in the lapse of 3 years, apparently did add new techs with Crossbows :o

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1 hour ago, 1% Critical Hit said:

Those geological changes are what makes me question a lot from Awakening. They also got rid of the prominent Ballistae from ol' Archanea and they didn't replace it with something like the Scorpio or a Polybolos, but Tellius, in the lapse of 3 years, apparently did add new techs with Crossbows :o

Yeah and the weirdest thing is, there is no bronze weapons in FE1 but there are Iron weapons. What? So in the real world where can we fit them? Well nowhere, a 1000 years pass and everything is still as primitive and in fact they use Bronze weapons in Awakening which might indicate they come before FE1 but everything else disposes that. Jeez game have some consistency. 

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2 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Yeah and the weirdest thing is, there is no bronze weapons in FE1 but there are Iron weapons. What? So in the real world where can we fit them? Well nowhere, a 1000 years pass and everything is still as primitive and in fact they use Bronze weapons in Awakening which might indicate they come before FE1 but everything else disposes that. Jeez game have some consistency. 

Well apocalypse I think could be an excuse, not sure how common it is. The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild runs with it I believe. I believe it gets momentarily tossed into 7th Dragon III: Code: VFD to explain the medieval nature of Eden. Xenogears has the ancient Zeboim Civilization, which featured skyscrapers and a not-Times-Square-with-a-Christmas-tree, which due to massive environmental devastation saw like 90% of humanity annihilated (and reminds me of a totally different game).

So what apocalypse could have caused a hypothetical civilization collapse in Archanea? I would hazard echoes-map-fell-dragon.png.They're also the best hypothetical explanation for global terraforming. Gimle yawns, 5% of humanity goes goodbye. Stretches their tail out, 10% more, paws for food, 25%, and so forth. Buildings get wiped away at the same time. Maybe they do a Fell Cannonball next to Altea, causing an unimaginable tsunami that buries the entirety of the isle in seawater, leaving behind such salinity that plant life dies off.

 

The only issue with this idea is that we see no advanced ruins of whatever great civilization eventually emerged out of Archanea before the Grimy Reset.

 

Alternatively, civilization doesn't advance in Archanea at the same rate it did IRL, it did take over 2000 years for IRL humanity to go from the Age of Iron to the Industrial Age. And were it not for European diffusion, it wouldn't have spread everywhere, the Native Americans and Australians never discovered metallurgy at all, and therefore never left the Stone Age.

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On 8/13/2018 at 11:37 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

The only issue with this idea is that we see no advanced ruins of whatever great civilization eventually emerged out of Archanea before the Grimy Reset.

So... Did Grima actually destroyed pre-Ylisse Archanea with pre-Valm Valentia completely? At least to the point where some group of dudes could take him down?

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4 hours ago, 1% Critical Hit said:

 

So... Did Grima actually destroyed pre-Ylisse Archanea with pre-Valm Valentia completely? At least to the point where some group of dudes could take him down?

I researched a bit but Grima never destroyed anything... he was sealed away by the first exalt who slayed him a 1000 years ago which happens to be Alm, I'm not sure how genetics got to Alm's babies to the point where they come pre-tattoed with the mark of the exalt. Or it could be Tobin who knows.

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9 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

I researched a bit but Grima never destroyed anything... he was sealed away by the first exalt who slayed him a 1000 years ago which happens to be Alm, I'm not sure how genetics got to Alm's babies to the point where they come pre-tattoed with the mark of the exalt. Or it could be Tobin who knows.

actually alm isn't the first exalt because SoV takes place between shadow dragon and new mystery which occurs 2000 years before the events of awakening. The first exalt fights grima 1000 years before the events of awakening so it just can't be alm.

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3 hours ago, Otts486 said:

actually alm isn't the first exalt because SoV takes place between shadow dragon and new mystery which occurs 2000 years before the events of awakening. The first exalt fights grima 1000 years before the events of awakening so it just can't be alm.

oh wait I thought Awakening happened a 1000 years after 

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2 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

oh wait I thought Awakening happened a 1000 years after 

It's also designed to be some form of background fluff to expand the lore a bit and make it seem like peace isn't eternal. The First Exalt is supposed to be an intermediary between Marth and Chrom.

Archanea's Falchion changed from Marth's to Chrom's over the course of 2000 years, right?

So did something that happened around the time between them cause it to become damaged and in need of reforging by Naga, allowing the blade to become reshaped in the process? Possibly.

That said, I'm fairly sure that when the First Exalt performed the Awakening, that's when the Brand of the Exalt started to surface on him and his successors. Just my thoughts and guesses here anyway. 

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2 minutes ago, Light Strategist said:

It's also designed to be some form of background fluff to expand the lore a bit and make it seem like peace isn't eternal. The First Exalt is supposed to be an intermediary between Marth and Chrom.

Archanea's Falchion changed from Marth's to Chrom's over the course of 2000 years, right?

So did something that happened around the time between them cause it to become damaged and in need of reforging by Naga, allowing the blade to become reshaped in the process? Possibly.

That said, I'm fairly sure that when the First Exalt performed the Awakening, that's when the Brand of the Exalt started to surface on him and his successors. Just my thoughts and guesses here anyway. 

Oh maybe, is that why the Falchion is bad until the end of the game? Because it was cool when Alm and Marth used it but Chrom just has a 5 Might sword around for no reason and that hole in the middle if someone gets theri swprd in there either A: Chrom can flip the weapon and disarm them or B: He is forced to drop his weapon or get fenced lol good thoughts though.

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3 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Oh maybe, is that why the Falchion is bad until the end of the game? Because it was cool when Alm and Marth used it but Chrom just has a 5 Might sword around for no reason and that hole in the middle if someone gets theri swprd in there either A: Chrom can flip the weapon and disarm them or B: He is forced to drop his weapon or get fenced lol good thoughts though.

The hole in it actually shows a large part of the Brand as well. My note on Falchion having to be reforged is in regards to the fact that the Archanean Falchion is much more like a Rapier whereas the Ylissean Falchion is much more like a Short Sword. Fighting with either type leads to a completely different fighting style. So the general shape and styling would have been changed in that event as well. Besides, I think you're slightly overthinking the likelihood that someone'd get the opportunity to thrust a weapon in the hole, Chrom's not just gonna stand there and let someone thrust a weapon at him, in the middle of a war. That'd be silly.

Who knows, if we're lucky we might get a game telling us of the First Exalt's time in the spotlight and exactly what transpired from that event. Heck, I even came up with a name for that title whilst typing this. Fire Emblem: Exaltation
Ah, I doubt we'll see it but it's nice to dream...

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I need an explanation about the First Exalt and the First Grima Impact in form of a game so it can solve many of the holes on the lore.
Fire Emblem: Exaltation should definitely be the title.

5 hours ago, Light Strategist said:

That said, I'm fairly sure that when the First Exalt performed the Awakening, that's when the Brand of the Exalt started to surface on him and his successors. Just my thoughts and guesses here anyway. 

I remember the Brand of the Exalt appearing as a warp point after dealing with baby Grima in Echoes, but that could be just an Awakening wink-wink

Edited by 1% Critical Hit
adding info that i forgot

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2 hours ago, Light Strategist said:

. Besides, I think you're slightly overthinking the likelihood that someone'd get the opportunity to thrust a weapon in the hole, Chrom's not just gonna stand there and let someone thrust a weapon at him, in the middle of a war. That'd be silly.

It isn't that hard of a thought, many weapons in fact were designed with "trap holes" that were used to disarm the opponent but that hole is pretty big and someone with a lance, who can attack from a further distance than chom might be able to get into the hole and get hit the hole shouldnt be in the blade, it should be on the guard you know those fancy looking things that as a child you thought were for decorations a little above the pummel and at the sides? Well that part is specifically designed to trap the opoonents sword and you disarming them so its not a far fetched idea. 

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8 hours ago, Light Strategist said:

Archanea's Falchion changed from Marth's to Chrom's over the course of 2000 years, right?

So did something that happened around the time between them cause it to become damaged and in need of reforging by Naga, allowing the blade to become reshaped in the process? Possibly.

There are two ways insofar I see it that the Falchion's new design could be explained.

  1. The reforging hypothesis. While the blade is made of the same Naga enamel, it was physically and magically changed somewhere between New Mystery and Awakening. I would hypothesize that when Grima showed up, somebody tried to kill it using the Falchion (maybe the First Exalt), since it had slain dragons before. But Falchion in its present state had dulled, or needed to be modified to be particularly potent on Grima. Naga by this point was able to reincarnate with more of her memories and power intact, she and the bearer of the Falchion meet, and she works her magic on the blade. In that moment, Falchion physically mutates.
  2. The "It was always like this" psuedo-retcon. Falchion's form never changed in lore. It's Awakening design is an update for you the player, but this doesn't mean the Falchion has actually changed at all from its Marth-era self within the world itself for those residing in it. You could therefore also say the Marth Falchion design is canonical in Awakening, even if you the player don't see it there, as the people in the world itself do.
    • If this doesn't make sense, it was the logic used in the Mega Man franchise for explaining Zero's Mega Man X design and his Mega Man Zero redesign.:
    • Spoiler

      Original frameMega Man Zero

      Like the Falchions the design differences are massive. And the MMZ design, if one did retcon it into the X games, would stick out like a sore thumb for how much sleeker it is than the bulky robots (Reploids to use proper MMX jargon) in that less technologically advanced era. You could say the same of the Awakening Falchion with its stylistically crazy giant hole- it fits the general design direction of Awakening, but is far too outrageous by the simple aesthetics of Archanea.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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I think Lucina explains that Archanea's Falchion needed to be reforged except for the blade itself since it never breaks or dulls. So it's the same sword but with lots of reforging over time.

Also... Where in Naga's name is the Valentian Falchion? Did they buried Alm with it? Or the same with Duma?

Edited by 1% Critical Hit

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I'm wouldn't at all be surprised to discover that the setting being future Archanea/Valencia was a decision that was made long after the story had been written. Because really, they made absolutely no attempt to keep things cohesive. Coming to think of it, if Walhart's conquest happened on the same continent while Chrom was busy with Gangrel, that could have really served to amp up the tension and intrigue. It would feel less like a filler arc too.

Edited by Jotari

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On 8/23/2018 at 4:59 AM, Jotari said:

I'm wouldn't at all be surprised to discover that the setting being future Archanea/Valencia was a decision that was made long after the story had been written. Because really, they made absolutely no attempt to keep things cohesive. Coming to think of it, if Walhart's conquest happened on the same continent while Chrom was busy with Gangrel, that could have really served to amp up the tension and intrigue. It would feel less like a filler arc too.

On this note, I could envision if we shrank the countries we could do this.

Something like Ylisse, Regna Ferox, and Plegia being "here", with Valm and the things it conquers on the continent being "over there", quite some distance away so that Chrom wouldn't be concerned the political situation there. Slash RF to just the Northwest of the continent, Plegia to Dolhr-Macedon-Gra-Altea at most, and Ylisse to the territory of the former Kingdom of Archanea, and leave the big forgettable Northeast a hodgepodge of smaller states, including Valm.

I wouldn't directly intermix fighting with Walhart alongside fighting with Gangrel. I was thinking more during the war with Gangrel, Chrom receives an emissary from little old Valm (renamed something else obviously since this isn't Valentia anymore) in the Northeast who says they want to contribute to the fight against Plegia, the unspoken reason being Walhart the Atheist wants to destroy the homeland of the Grimleal. Chrom accepts Valm's help, a few contingents of troops, and also overhears it is doing some stuff politically in the Northeast, but has neither the resources nor the want to meddle in the affairs of a distant part of the continent. Chrom defeats Gangrel's Plegia.

After the death of Gangrel, Chrom and co. need to decide what will be done with Plegia now.  The war is modified to exact a heavier toll on Ylisse and Regna Ferox, leaving neither willing to foot the costs of a recovery occupation. But Valm yet again, in Chrom's unknowing eyes an innocent little do-gooder, says they're willing to bear the burden of a recovery occupation, and Chrom gives the OK, sending some Ylissean help, and Regna Ferox sending some too.

Fast forward past the time skip, and Chrom is getting reports that Valm's continued occupation of Plegia is causing unrest amid the populace. Walhart is doing everything he can to pull the Grimleal out by the roots, set it on fire, and scatter its ashes into the wind and then the bottom of the ocean. Finding the ends justifies the means, Walhart does crush a few non-Grimleal Plegian toes in the process. Chrom visits Walhart visiting Plegia, asks "What is the meaning of this?", Walhart responds unapologetically and unwavering in his current course of action. Chrom now starts to hear of the details of what Walhart has been doing in the Northeast, amounting to empire by force, tensions rise, somebody blinks, and war begins against Walhart. The war would begin with expelling Walhart from Plegia, then turn to fighting in the Northeast, and then end before the Grimleal take final control of the plot.

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6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

On this note, I could envision if we shrank the countries we could do this.

Something like Ylisse, Regna Ferox, and Plegia being "here", with Valm and the things it conquers on the continent being "over there", quite some distance away so that Chrom wouldn't be concerned the political situation there. Slash RF to just the Northwest of the continent, Plegia to Dolhr-Macedon-Gra-Altea at most, and Ylisse to the territory of the former Kingdom of Archanea, and leave the big forgettable Northeast a hodgepodge of smaller states, including Valm.

I wouldn't directly intermix fighting with Walhart alongside fighting with Gangrel. I was thinking more during the war with Gangrel, Chrom receives an emissary from little old Valm (renamed something else obviously since this isn't Valentia anymore) in the Northeast who says they want to contribute to the fight against Plegia, the unspoken reason being Walhart the Atheist wants to destroy the homeland of the Grimleal. Chrom accepts Valm's help, a few contingents of troops, and also overhears it is doing some stuff politically in the Northeast, but has neither the resources nor the want to meddle in the affairs of a distant part of the continent. Chrom defeats Gangrel's Plegia.

After the death of Gangrel, Chrom and co. need to decide what will be done with Plegia now.  The war is modified to exact a heavier toll on Ylisse and Regna Ferox, leaving neither willing to foot the costs of a recovery occupation. But Valm yet again, in Chrom's unknowing eyes an innocent little do-gooder, says they're willing to bear the burden of a recovery occupation, and Chrom gives the OK, sending some Ylissean help, and Regna Ferox sending some too.

Fast forward past the time skip, and Chrom is getting reports that Valm's continued occupation of Plegia is causing unrest amid the populace. Walhart is doing everything he can to pull the Grimleal out by the roots, set it on fire, and scatter its ashes into the wind and then the bottom of the ocean. Finding the ends justifies the means, Walhart does crush a few non-Grimleal Plegian toes in the process. Chrom visits Walhart visiting Plegia, asks "What is the meaning of this?", Walhart responds unapologetically and unwavering in his current course of action. Chrom now starts to hear of the details of what Walhart has been doing in the Northeast, amounting to empire by force, tensions rise, somebody blinks, and war begins against Walhart. The war would begin with expelling Walhart from Plegia, then turn to fighting in the Northeast, and then end before the Grimleal take final control of the plot.

Well, that's not bad. But it's sort of a major rehash of Radiant Dawn with Valm playing the role of Begnion and Plegia playing the role of Daein. I was thinking more the plot would be exactly the same, only Chrom and co are aware of Whalhart and think Gangrel mad to be engaging in this war when there's an even larger conqueror on their door stop. It would only need a line or two of dialogue and a little bit from the narrator on the map for the prechapter exposition (seriously, why did they remove that from the series? It was a ridiculously useful tool for setting up the battle of each chapter).

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6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well, that's not bad. But it's sort of a major rehash of Radiant Dawn with Valm playing the role of Begnion and Plegia playing the role of Daein. I was thinking more the plot would be exactly the same, only Chrom and co are aware of Whalhart and think Gangrel mad to be engaging in this war when there's an even larger conqueror on their door stop.

My attempt was to better connect the arcs, and show Walhart trying to put ideological atheism into action against its primary target.

A simple line or three would work, but for the player to really feel a great threat from Valm, enough to get them to understand Chrom's pleas to Gangrel, I'd think we'd need a real sampling of Walhart's might in some way. Insertion of a little accidental border skirmish with Valm could fix that; Walhart would ignore Ylisse afterwards- not yet strong enough for that big fish and he has his lines sunk elsewhere at the moment. Your suggestion of pre-battle narration combined with that would suffice, the narration to be precise would be the world map, with some color for political boundaries. It shows a region of continent with lots of small states (none of which save Walhart's have to be named), shows profile of Walhart's head, and shows that region go from many small states, to one bigger one with some of the small fry remaining, but looking like they're going to be gobbled up.

 

15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

and a little bit from the narrator on the map for the prechapter exposition (seriously, why did they remove that from the series? It was a ridiculously useful tool for setting up the battle of each chapter).

It was Awakening that abolished this right? Shadow Dragon oftentimes had only narration for its pre-battle plot, and it appears New Mystery was much the same, albeit with more non-narration pre-battle plot, if still not a lot and a good deal being just Kris.

Why did Awakening get rid of it? Well Awakening wasn't exactly perfect in its plot, and the sea change it brought... well I don't want to criticize it too heavily or anything- no want to bash unfairly. I can't find words for it.

But if the Archanea remakes pulled back on the characters telling the story and relied more on the narration (in contrast to prior games which balanced the two), then perhaps it could be said Awakening did the opposite? Rather than rely on narration, which also played a role in world building (albeit not always- SS had plenty of narration but a world built on used toothpicks), Awakening chose to rely on its cast of colorful characters instead? Maybe they felt such narration was unnecessary and something people generally ignored for when the plot cut to the case with the characters they loved? 

Fates doesn't have it either right? I've never paid attention to the plot here. Consensus generally says Fates's plot was two Maglevs with nuclear reactors as cargo careening into each other while a 747 and A-380 collide right above. In such a case, it is not surprise they would skip on pre-battle narration. Not to mention it was what Awakening did, and Awakening saved the series and sold like hotcakes, so not having pre-battle narration shouldn't stop sales and a reception as smooth and delicious as a chocolate fountain. You can also brand it laziness in both 3DS games, or a misplacement of writing resources on too many supports (although I'm not sure if the plot writing team and support writing team are one and the same).

SoV, well original Gaiden didn't have such narrations. It'd also be harder to do with the Act format over the usual Chapters, but I wouldn't rule it out entirely, it could work with certain major battles- like the liberation of Castle Zofia, Grieth's downfall, and the Rudolf showdown.

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