Hoenn Does Not Have Too Much Water! ...kinda

[Ronnie]

A common complaint I read/hear from people about the Hoenn games is that there's too many surf routes. They think it's a problem and hinders their journey in the game. I wanna say this is bullshit but I'd need proof. So here's the proof!

This is the Hoenn region:

Now allow me to break down the map in a language that everybody here can easily understand: Color Code!

The red is the mandatory areas and the green are optional areas. You don't get surf until your 5th gym badge. So you're already about half way through your journey. There's a big chunk of land you need to travel through after you get Surf. You get a glimpse of "surfing" when you have to travel on Mr. Briney's ship to get to Dewford Town and Slateport City. However, the actual routes between those areas are 100% optional. No one is forcing you to surf through those routes. Once you're in Slateport, you're back to land traveling.

As for surfing/diving to get to Mossdeep City, Team Aqua's base and Sootopolis City, it's a pretty easy and linear path to get there. To get to Mossdeep City from Lilycove City, it's basically a straight line until you reach Mossdeep. From Mossdeep you just follow the dark water until you reach the shallow square for Team Aqua's underwater base or the giant white rock for Sootopolis. After your 8th badge, fly back to Mossdeep and then surf straight down and to the right to get to Victory Road/Pokémon League. That whole sea route from Sootopolis to Slateport is 100% optional (unless you play Emerald in which case you need to go to Sky Pillar). So if you're playing Ruby, Sapphire or ORAS, Pacifidlog Town is completely skippable.

As you can see, you're not surfing or diving for that long. They're easy and quick paths to get from point A to point B. And I'm pretty sure Surf's speed is the same as the running shoes. Heck, in ORAS you can catch a Carvanha at level 30 with a Super Rod, give it a rare candy and you got a Sharpedo that'll cross the ocean at the speed of light.

[Water Mage]

Honestly I never understood the complaint “Too much water”. I guess some people got lost in such wide space? Regardless I really liked actually! And it made finding Pacifidlog town so rewarding! I still remember how amazed I was when I found it!

[Florete]

Gen 3 has always been my favorite, and "too much water" has never been a complaint of my own, but I understand where it comes from as far as the original games are concerned.

You can show what's actually needed, but on a player's first time, that doesn't matter because they don't know that. The water routes around Mossdeep and Sootopolis are really easy to get lost in because they all look the same, have the same kind of trainers, and checking the map requires going through a few menus. It's easy to see why it would frustrate some players.

This doesn't hold for ORAS, though. The routes were made much more distinguishable, various trainer types were added, and there's a map on the bottom screen always available. 

[Ronnie]

4 minutes ago, Florete said:

You can show what's actually needed, but on a player's first time, that doesn't matter because they don't know that. The water routes around Mossdeep and Sootopolis are really easy to get lost in because they all look the same, have the same kind of trainers, and checking the map requires going through a few menus. It's easy to see why it would frustrate some players.

A player's first time? Well I'd hope the player has the mindset to talk to NPCs because Sootopolis should not be hard to find. There's so many rocks in the way that you're almost forced to go linearly straight down. And once you're nearby the white rocks, NPCs will bring it up or even outright say Sootopolis is nearby. They'll get the idea to dive in the dark water and lo and behold there's an opening at the front. I agree that Seafloor Cavern (Aqua's underwater base) is a little more cryptic for newcomers. Lilycove to Mossdeep really is just a bee line though.

[Florete]

3 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

A player's first time? Well I'd hope the player has the mindset to talk to NPCs because Sootopolis should not be hard to find. There's so many rocks in the way that you're almost forced to go linearly straight down. And once you're nearby the white rocks, NPCs will bring it up or even outright say Sootopolis is nearby. They'll get the idea to dive in the dark water and lo and behold there's an opening at the front. I agree that Seafloor Cavern (Aqua's underwater base) is a little more cryptic for newcomers. Lilycove to Mossdeep really is just a bee line though.

Getting into Sootopolis once you've found the outside of it isn't an issue. Getting to there is the part that can be rough.

[X-Naut]

For all the water routes in Gen III, the devs were kind enough to give us the fastest Surf speed of any game and a pleasant BGM to listen to. You also got Fly before then to minimize backtracking, unless you postponed Winona because of her dreaded DD+EQ Altaria. Plus, the mandatory Surfing routes are arguably the simplest. The worst part about it was probably the universal encounter table, you either popped Repels or you had to deal with a low level Tentacool/Wingull every ten tiles.

[Anacybele]

I'm on the side of too much water. Yes, not all of the water routes are mandatory, yes, there are still more land routes, but if you want to explore the whole region, find all the Pokemon, especially the Regis, etc., you have to see the rest of the water routes. And some of them are hell. And I did get lost in the big wide area between Sootopolis City and Evergrande City.

I also hated the requirements to get the Regis...

Edited August 20, 2018 by Anacybele

[Ether]

The main problem with the surfing routes in Hoenn isn't so much the volume of them, so much as they they're mostly all very samey and clumped together with little in-between. From the moment you clear western Hoenn and get surf, look at what's left of the game. Aside from the linear path moving from Mauville to Lilycove, basically everything left in the game pre-E4, when we're just past the halfway mark, is all water. Southern Hoenn near Dewford that just unlocked? Water. The travel from Lilycove to Mossdeep? Water. Diving and finding the box legendary? Water. Sootopolis Gym? Water. Exploring down towards Pacifidlog and the rapids East of Slateport? Water. It's even worse if you're playing Sapphire/AS because if you are, then the Team Aqua fights during this time are even more water pokemon. It wouldn't be a problem if the routes didn't all have the same wild encounters, similar design, and a small pool of trainer types and pokemon. Sure, some of it is optional, but there's a massive section of the game where you're forced onto these sea routes with almost nothing in between, because the game gave you everything to do outside of the water beforehand.

It's not the amount of water that's so much an issue, it's that it's all jam packed into a particular section of the game with little reprieve, literally flooding the latter half of the game.

[King Marth 64]

Wasn't the "Too Much Water" nonsense was started by the IGN review in Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire? I know the "Too Much Water" comment was kinda out of place since I don't think the reviewer knows Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire was a remake of Ruby and Sapphire which I know not all areas in Hoenn have "Too Much Water".

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, Ether said:

The main problem with the surfing routes in Hoenn isn't so much the volume of them, so much as they they're mostly all very samey and clumped together with little in-between. From the moment you clear western Hoenn and get surf, look at what's left of the game. Aside from the linear path moving from Mauville to Lilycove, basically everything left in the game pre-E4, when we're just past the halfway mark, is all water. Southern Hoenn near Dewford that just unlocked? Water. The travel from Lilycove to Mossdeep? Water. Diving and finding the box legendary? Water. Sootopolis Gym? Water. Exploring down towards Pacifidlog and the rapids East of Slateport? Water. It's even worse if you're playing Sapphire/AS because if you are, then the Team Aqua fights during this time are even more water pokemon. It wouldn't be a problem if the routes didn't all have the same wild encounters, similar design, and a small pool of trainer types and pokemon. Sure, some of it is optional, but there's a massive section of the game where you're forced onto these sea routes with almost nothing in between, because the game gave you everything to do outside of the water beforehand.

It's not the amount of water that's so much an issue, it's that it's all jam packed into a particular section of the game with little reprieve, literally flooding the latter half of the game.

Yeah, I agree with this post entirely. The wild Pokemon encounters are boring too. Almost nothing but Tentacrool with the occasional Wailmer. Where are the actual Hoenn Water types at? Like Carvahna, Clamperl, etc?

[Ronnie]

11 minutes ago, Ether said:

The main problem with the surfing routes in Hoenn isn't so much the volume of them, so much as they they're mostly all very samey and clumped together with little in-between. From the moment you clear western Hoenn and get surf, look at what's left of the game. Aside from the linear path moving from Mauville to Lilycove, basically everything left in the game pre-E4, when we're just past the halfway mark, is all water. Southern Hoenn near Dewford that just unlocked? Water. The travel from Lilycove to Mossdeep? Water. Diving and finding the box legendary? Water. Sootopolis Gym? Water. Exploring down towards Pacifidlog and the rapids East of Slateport? Water. It's even worse if you're playing Sapphire/AS because if you are, then the Team Aqua fights during this time are even more water pokemon. It wouldn't be a problem if the routes didn't all have the same wild encounters, similar design, and a small pool of trainer types and pokemon. Sure, some of it is optional, but there's a massive section of the game where you're forced onto these sea routes with almost nothing in between, because the game gave you everything to do outside of the water beforehand.

It's not the amount of water that's so much an issue, it's that it's all jam packed into a particular section of the game with little reprieve, literally flooding the latter half of the game.

You mean the majority of it is optional. I just laid out a color coded map for ya. You're not FORCED onto a massive section of water. Here is a link. This guy timed himself and it's only around 3 minutes of actual water travel for mandatory areas. AFTER the 7th gym, you have Team Aqua/Magma, legendary, and 8th badge. Then you're back on land with Victory Road and E4 and you beat the game. If you want to do all the optional areas then sure it might suck to surf, but for the main story, you're only on water for 3 minutes? It isn't the latter half of the game. Again you don't get surf until the 5th badge and you don't begin the water areas until after the 6th badge and the LONG route to Lilycove.

8 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, I agree with this post entirely. The wild Pokemon encounters are boring too. Almost nothing but Tentacrool with the occasional Wailmer. Where are the actual Hoenn Water types at? Like Carvahna, Clamperl, etc?

Rods and seaweed

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Ronnie said:

You mean the majority of it is optional. I just laid out a color coded map for ya. You're not FORCED onto a massive section of water. Here is a link. This guy timed himself and it's only around 3 minutes of actual water travel for mandatory areas. AFTER the 7th gym, you have Team Aqua/Magma, legendary, and 8th badge. Then you're back on land with Victory Road and E4 and you beat the game. If you want to do all the optional areas then sure it might suck to surf, but for the main story, you're only on water for 3 minutes? It isn't the latter half of the game. Again you don't get surf until the 5th badge and you don't begin the water areas until after the 6th badge and the LONG route to Lilycove.

It doesn't matter that it's optional. You still have to explore it if you want the Regis and stuff and it's ANNOYING.

2 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Rods and seaweed

That doesn't stop you from encountering Tentacool after Tentacool after Tentacool after fucking Tentacool.

[Dragoncat]

Hoenn is nostalgia for me so I don't mind it, the generic trainer battle theme is the best ever.

I guess you could call me a Hoenn ho

[Ronnie]

Just now, Anacybele said:

It doesn't matter that it's optional. You still have to explore it if you want the Regis and stuff and it's ANNOYING.

That doesn't stop you from encountering Tentacool after Tentacool after Tentacool after fucking Tentacool.

It does matter that it's optional because you are not required to explore them to beat the game. I'm speaking in terms of main story completion. Whether you want to explore the remainder of Hoenn is up to you. At least Sharpedo is fast and you can use repels and skip trainers. Making traveling on water a speedy and painless process. Not to mention the area between Pacifidlog Town and Slateport are nothing but currents that travel for you.

Also repels, repels, repels. Then use a rod.

[DisobeyedCargo]

“Too much water” is one of the stupidest complaints I’ve ever heard and this proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by DisobeyedCargo

[Anacybele]

3 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

It does matter that it's optional because you are not required to explore them to beat the game. I'm speaking in terms of main story completion. Whether you want to explore the remainder of Hoenn is up to you. At least Sharpedo is fast and you can use repels and skip trainers. Making traveling on water a speedy and painless process. Not to mention the area between Pacifidlog Town and Slateport are nothing but currents that travel for you.

Also repels, repels, repels. Then use a rod.

It doesn't matter because it's still super annoying for those players that DO want to complete the Pokedex, visit Pacifidlog Town, etc. And it's still boring because there's not much to see or do in the meantime while you're traveling on the water.

[Dragoncat]

3 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

“Too much water” is one of the stupidest complaints I’ve ever heard and this proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt 

 

 

Team Magma wrote that IGN review. 

[DisobeyedCargo]

1 minute ago, Dragoncat said:

Team Magma wrote that IGN review. 

Frickin 7.8/10

the surf speed is fast 

you have repels 

I’m fairly sure the encounter rates were Lowered on sea tiles in ORAS from RSE

the music is gorgeous

If you wanna complain about surfing, Diamond and Pearl are easily the worst when it comes to surfing  

[Ether]

Sure, most of the water routes are optional, but if you're dissuaded from exploring a large chunk of the map because it fails to differentiate itself, that's still not good design. And as I said, I don't think the volume of water in Hoenn is a problem, I just wish it was broken up more so that it can be taken in chunks, rather than being all dumped on the player at once with little in-between. If Mossdeep had more content besides a filler town with just a gym and little else, or if Pacifidlog had... well, anything aside from completionism backing it, the game would be much better off for it. Imagine if the sea routes were filled with interesting offshoots like the wrecked ship/sea mauville, and it wasn't a one off area?

[Ronnie]

6 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

“Too much water” is one of the stupidest complaints I’ve ever heard and this proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt 

 

 

Thank you

3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

It doesn't matter because it's still super annoying for those players that DO want to complete the Pokedex, visit Pacifidlog Town, etc. And it's still boring because there's not much to see or do in the meantime while you're traveling on the water.

I'm still surprised people want to complete Pokedexes especially with how many Pokemon there are. Anyways back to the point, surf speed is fast and you have repels. Make your bee line through the stretches of water which can be done quickly. Actually time yourself and see how quick it takes. It's not as bad as the land route from Lavender Town to Fuschia City lol.

[Midnox]

I agree with too much water stuff. That last third of the game is pretty boring, and the distances are rather long. I usually skip trainer battles and hoard repels

[Zapp Branniglenn]

If I recall gen 3 correctly, we all had the experience of too much water because the game prompts you to discover the Team Aqua/Magma base as well as the town with the eighth gym with no clues other than you need to dive into one of 20 or so pockets of water. If you miss the one pocket you need, you may very well make it all the way to Pacificlog town, so it's dubious to call these water routes "optional" unless you're playing with a guide which many of us did not in 2003.

[Re: The weirdo.]

didn't play much of hoenn but i approve of ripping on "emotional and engaging journey" IGN.

so yeah. pretty much an objectively stupid statement, what with all the things said here, so yeah.

[Regalia]

I actually really liked that there was "too much water." I never saw a problem with it. (To be fair though, Ruby/Sapphire was my first Pokemon game). 

[Acacia Sgt]

Personally, I don't think all that water ever bothered me when playing the games (just the original, haven't played the remakes). Just looking at the map when needed, and I was never lost. About the only troubles I had was finding the proper path with the currents to reach the Sealed Cavern. Although I think I did got lost finding the Seafloor Cavern once, but I don't even remember how I got lost. I think I had all three underwater "entrances" (Sealed Cavern's, Seafloor Cavern's, and Sotopolis's) mixed up so I ended up going into the wrong one... but again, I don't remember.

In any case... nope, wasn't that much bothered with a third of the map being water routes.