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Who became better / worse in Heroes than in their original FE game(s)?

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5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Yeah, well, I don't really care for any of that, and yet I still would see the mounts getting far more use because having a horse is just that significant an advantage thanks to the maps being bloated. It helps (or doesn't help, depending on your perspective) that enemy quality in Genealogy is mostly pretty low.

Guys like Alec, Noish, and Midir are tedious to use and I've blown thru the game in under 400 turns more than I can care to remember. Sigurd, Lex, Master Knight Lachesis,  and Finn are the only horses with potential to be offensively beastly in Gen 1. I have never had the infantry left in dust except in the opening of chapter2. 

 

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9 hours ago, SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre said:

Guys like Alec, Noish, and Midir are tedious to use and I've blown thru the game in under 400 turns more than I can care to remember. Sigurd, Lex, Master Knight Lachesis,  and Finn are the only horses with potential to be offensively beastly in Gen 1. I have never had the infantry left in dust except in the opening of chapter2. 

And yet, you're overrating just how necessary the supposed "nukes" that the infantry are... Genealogy is quantity over quality when it comes to enemies, as stated earlier. And let's not forget that when it comes to facing cavalry squads, they're most in danger of being swarmed and killed because they cannot retreat after attacking. But according to you, that's supposedly worth risking. And did I mention that when it comes to saving villages, you're going to be relying on the cavalry quite often since enemies often start near, if not on, villages to begin with? As for forests and desert, there's like what, 2 portions of the game where forests are significant? And only one for desert, with maybe two.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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I think discussing this is sorta pointless cause FEH values combat performance over movement in its metagame and factors such as a units join time, growth rates, and bases don't really apply to FEH.

For example, I could easily say a growth unit like Nino or Amelia is way better in Hero's than in their base game, but that's only because factors like training the unit aren't really considered in FEH. It becomes debatable which is better if you consider things like endgame stats, in which case they are neck and neck with their Hero's stats.

Edited by FoxyGrandpa

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11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

And yet, you're overrating just how necessary the supposed "nukes" that the infantry are... Genealogy is quantity over quality when it comes to enemies, as stated earlier. And let's not forget that when it comes to facing cavalry squads, they're most in danger of being swarmed and killed because they cannot retreat after attacking. But according to you, that's supposedly worth risking. And did I mention that when it comes to saving villages, you're going to be relying on the cavalry quite often since enemies often start near, if not on, villages to begin with? As for forests and desert, there's like what, 2 portions of the game where forests are significant? And only one for desert, with maybe two.

The recruiting of Jamke and taking of Verdane will involve Jamke wiping out the Hunters, Deirdre Silencing Sandima with Cuan and Sigurd being the only mounts keeping up  because unpromoted mounts only have 2 mov. Lex and Ethlin are the two unpromoted mounts worth trudging through the forest because of the Hero Axe and having Lex finish the Arena with said Hero Axe. 

The castle in Augustria with Clement can be taken care by the said infantry who were left behind while the horse are Return staffed back into the castle.  

In Chapter 3, the Pirate section is mostly an infantry affair. In fact, Sigurd has to wait for Aideen to reach Brigid before seizing the final castle.  If grinding up Dew, Alec, etc is not neeeded, the Ayra or Holyn can just nuke them all while Brigid and Tailtu nuke the pirates and Fury steals money with the Thief sword and gets rich.

In chapter 4, the mounts completely lose their advantage with Brigid and Jamke dominating the first part(Deetva and Wind Mages) and Forseti Lewyn trivializing the second part. The villages are going to be saved by Fury/Erinys thanks to Deetva causing way too much trouble. Unpromoted mounts can't cross the mountains at all.

Chapter 5 has the Armors being backed up by mages. Both Langobalt and Reptor stymie Sigurd since Langobalt has huge bulk and Reptor has Thorhammer. In both instances, it is basically "wait for Lewyn" .The desert is horse unfriendly and a bunch of Dragon Knights with Horseslayers are coming to the castle.

Chapter 6 could be wrecked by Oifaye, but given the Jagen role he is in, the infantry are going to need the needs.

Chapter 7 involves desert crossing, Julia tanking with Resire, and Shanan taking on the mage trio and likely Blume. Ishtore is basically a matter of of having everyone else wreck his army while waiting for Seliph to get his ass down to the castle. The bandit is taken care of by Fee/Femina once again. Finn can take care of the Lenster guys, but the enemies are coming towards them anyway.

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On 9/6/2018 at 5:23 PM, FoxyGrandpa said:

I think discussing this is sorta pointless cause FEH values combat performance over movement in its metagame and factors such as a units join time, growth rates, and bases don't really apply to FEH.

For example, I could easily say a growth unit like Nino or Amelia is way better in Hero's than in their base game, but that's only because factors like training the unit aren't really considered in FEH. It becomes debatable which is better if you consider things like endgame stats, in which case they are neck and neck with their Hero's stats.

That's an excellent point. That being said, as I see it, if a character was crippled in some manner or otherwise bad in their original game, I'd likely say they were better in Heroes. Like the aforementioned Arthur, who can't hit worth a damn and often faces crit chances to boot, or Charlotte, who similarly can't hit the broad side of a barn if her life depended on it. (Admittedly, that might not be fair since her being available in Heroes was via a seasonal banner, to my knowledge) Or Ayra, who isn't bad per se, but is compromised by the fact that her original game blatantly favours horses thanks to the giant maps.

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Everyone with major Holy Blood and a horse is arguably worse in heroes than FE 4-5. Them Holy Weapons and Holy Blood bonuses were insane. But I think thanks to Flora's dagger we have an excuse now to bring 30 Mt weapons into heroes. (jk)

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9 hours ago, Ae†her said:

we have an excuse now to bring 30 Mt weapons into heroes.

We already have that in the form of Blade tomes and Laevatein and they have 40+ Mt when fully powered.

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I want to add Boey under worse.

He was one of my best units in SOV but they gave him this huge Def stat and such low Res in Heroes that it's hard to really do anything with him against other mages. Bows are pretty alright but he was a pretty good nuke of anything that wasn't a Dread Fighter in SOV and I feel like I can't do as much with this stat spread they've given him~

I've also been debating with myself whether I find Jeorge worse or more of the same as New Mystery of the Emblem. He was my best Archer in that game but here he's not necessarily terrible, just super outclassed by other units, while I found him to be the best choice in Archers in the former. So, I guess it's kind of debatable since I don't know who is better between him and Gordin in either game~

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1 hour ago, Landmaster said:

I want to add Boey under worse.

He was one of my best units in SOV but they gave him this huge Def stat and such low Res in Heroes that it's hard to really do anything with him against other mages. Bows are pretty alright but he was a pretty good nuke of anything that wasn't a Dread Fighter in SOV and I feel like I can't do as much with this stat spread they've given him~

I've also been debating with myself whether I find Jeorge worse or more of the same as New Mystery of the Emblem. He was my best Archer in that game but here he's not necessarily terrible, just super outclassed by other units, while I found him to be the best choice in Archers in the former. So, I guess it's kind of debatable since I don't know who is better between him and Gordin in either game~

Gordin is largely considered worse in NM since his speed growth is low enough to hurt his progression, whereas Jeorge can auto Parthia and then use some speedwings to catch up later on. The best Archer is usually Draug, Luke, and Ryan with Ryan winning over Gordin due to prologue(since you don't really want to have Gordin in prologue), Luke winning for..... well being Luke, and Draug winning for being ridiculously fast

 

In FEH, Gordin is basically used to be the EXACT point where the Archers are average and below while Jeorge is the original Archer Trinity(Takumi, Klein, Jeorge)

The Tier for Archer was actually something along the lines of Takumi > Jeorge = Klein > Virion = Setsuna > The rest. The list shifts around in places now though, with the only constant being Clarrise is bar none the worst Archer.

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I want to add Boey under worse.

Honestly I feel quite the opposite. 
I find him the worst earlygame mage in Echoes because of his low speed, outclassed by Delthea, Celica and Kliff.

In Heroes he's still quite slow, but with his bulk he's easily the best green infantry bow counter in this game. With TA3 and BB3 he does his job well. Sure, it requires investment, but I use him way more in Heroes than I did in Echoes.

Edited by Hecatia Lapislazuli

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54 minutes ago, Hecatia Lapislazuli said:

Honestly I feel quite the opposite. 
I find him the worst earlygame mage in Echoes because of his low speed, outclassed by Delthea, Celica and Kliff.

In Heroes he's still quite slow, but with his bulk he's easily the best green infantry bow counter in this game. With TA3 and BB3 he does his job well. Sure, it requires investment, but I use him way more in Heroes than I did in Echoes.

boey doesnt even need raventomes TA3 or BB3 to do that. a maximized bladetome or owltome boey with tactics buffs and QR will shred any bow user to tears and with close counter even green and blue melees.

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8 hours ago, Hilda said:

boey doesnt even need raventomes TA3 or BB3 to do that. a maximized bladetome or owltome boey with tactics buffs and QR will shred any bow user to tears and with close counter even green and blue melees.

For Arena Assault, hard counter builds are better in my opinion since it is cheaper to build, requires no support, and have no restrictions.

Unless you are building a permanent Arena Assault team, it is difficult to plan out supports since teams are different every time and skills with restrictions are less useful since they may require specific positioning that may drag out the battle or it might not work altogether if the team composition is not right.

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4 hours ago, XRay said:

For Arena Assault, hard counter builds are better in my opinion since it is cheaper to build, requires no support, and have no restrictions.

Unless you are building a permanent Arena Assault team, it is difficult to plan out supports since teams are different every time and skills with restrictions are less useful since they may require specific positioning that may drag out the battle or it might not work altogether if the team composition is not right.

I have 6 fully finished Teams with blessings. They are consistent and dont change and can take on everything (granted some Teams fare against something specific better).

The 7. Team is kinda MIA atm

My +10 Boey runs on Team Fjorm: Fjorm +10, Boey +10, Caeda +10 and Elise +10 (all Tactic buffs team)

Other Teams:
Team L!Ike: +10 LIke, +10 Sanake, +10 Spring Camilla +10 Brave Lyn (Atk drive Spur focused Team with 1 Atk Tactics)
Team Gunnthra: +10 Gunnthra, +10 Clair, +10 Saizo +10 Brave Ike (all Tactics buffs team)
Team L!Hector: +10 Hector, +10 Karel, +10 Effie, +10 Bride Lyn
Team Fallen Robin: +10 Grima (F), +10 Raven, +10 Sigurd, +10 Felicia (all Tactics buff team
Team L!Ephraim:  +10 L!Ephraim +10 Soren +10 Marth +10 Brave Veronica (Drive RES/DEF based Team)

7. Team is currently on the makeing, but i havent found an adequat Legendary unit to fit in yet with a fitting blessing:
+10 Reinhardt +10 Eldigan +10 Kagero and I am not happy with Kagero atm. I think have to scrap this Team or switch out Kagero for my +10 Deirdre.

8. team is +10 Lukas +10 Sonya +10 Roy, Legendary Healer would be welcome for this one -_-

And no Legendary Lyn and Legendary Lucina are atm garbage and dont fit in anywhere (besides they arent +10)

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3 minutes ago, Hilda said:

I have 6 fully finished Teams with blessings. They are consistent and dont change and can take on everything (granted some Teams fare against something specific better).

Not everyone got the resources to furnish lots of permanent Arena Assault team. For those that do not, building mass counters is cheaper as those skills are more readily available.

The point is that building Boey as a counter means that he can do his job without support and without high investment. It is not going to give him great all round performance, but he is going to be really good against the enemies he does counter.

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