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Who was your first S support?


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5 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

What can I say, I made Nyx work in lunatic. She was key to beating missions like ch 13 conquest. You don't actually have that many options to deal with all the knights at that point in the game so you need your mages. 

You get an Armorslayer in the chapter before. Laslow, Silas, Corrin (if s/he has swords still), Selena, all of them can reasonably deal with those knights with a defensive pairup (I usually use Silas). 

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3 hours ago, Mandokarla said:

You get an Armorslayer in the chapter before. Laslow, Silas, Corrin (if s/he has swords still), Selena, all of them can reasonably deal with those knights with a defensive pairup (I usually use Silas). 

Relying on one unit with Armorslayer isn't enough for me. I want to kill those knights asap and I need more units to do so. So I use Nyx and Flame Shuriken Felica. I forgot about Ophelia's high luck which does help her accuracy. As for crits, that is a bit of an issue but not that much. Certainly Nyx could use those Goddess Icons. I like to have high luck on my corrin so might as well give Nyx those icons. Seriously, Nyx can be made to work on Lunatic with just a little effort. Between tonics, attack stance/pair ups, and supports, you got everything you need to make Nyx work. 

Edited by wissenschaft
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5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

And with her being cripplingly overspecialized, which you're trying - and failing - to downplay, I'd be EXTREMELY hesitant to consider her usable even in frigging normal mode, let alone Lunatic.

Because unlike Nyx, Ophelia isn't prone to explode from random critical hits, which you failed to take into account (Nyx has trash for a luck stat, and Nosferatu can't do you any good if you die to a critical hit from some mook, after all), and can actually hit worth a damn without needing to stick to Fire.

As I've said, I've made Nyx work on Lunatic without much trouble. But then maybe I like hyper specalized units. Hmm, reminds me of making Lilina work in FE 6, but Nyx takes way less effort. But then I use Peri on Lunatic as well. Maybe I'm crazy. lol Like I said, I like nuking the enemy during the player turn and Nyx and Peri help me do so but yeah, shaky hit rates all around.

Edited by wissenschaft
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4 hours ago, Mandokarla said:

For once I'm actually going to agree with Mir. For the previously mentioned purpose of nuking armor knights, Odin can already do that just fine, you get a fairly early armorslayer from the chest in ch.12, you just don't need Nyx to do that. Mages in Conquest are designed to be either 1.) A player phase hydrogen bomb (Ophelia) or 2.) An early-mid game reliable nostank (Odin). To accomplish EITHER of those goals reliably, against most other enemies, you need to have consistency. Ophelia is a god tier unit because Ophelia with almost anyone magical as her mother (even fucking Felicia, but Elise is her best mom by far) can be set up to absolutely annihilate the lategame. Mine soloed Hinoka's map on Lunatic, it was amazing. Odin is a great unit because he can really hold down important choke points and bait some enemies that are harder to bait otherwise (Takumi and Reina in Ch.13 for example). 

Nyx can MISS WITH A FIRE TOME IN THE MIDGAME. Between shit skill and shit luck, she is so unreliable. If she hits, she does a lot of damage, I'll give you that, but Nyx just isn't great. 

With all due respect, I wouldn't exactly agree with Odin being great - he specializes in skill and luck, which aren't exactly my stats of choice to specialize in, and is a Master of None with regard to the other, more important stats. I'd much rather rely on Dragon Corrin to bait enemies like the aforementioned Takumi and Reina. As for Ophelia, I'd say Elise isn't THAT much better than Felicia for her despite the extra effort needed to pair her and Odin off.

1 hour ago, wissenschaft said:

Relying on one unit with Armorslayer isn't enough for me. I want to kill those knights asap and I need more units to do so. So I use Nyx and Flame Shuriken Felica. I forgot about Ophelia's high luck which does help her accuracy. As for crits, that is a bit of an issue but not that much. Certainly Nyx could use those Goddess Icons. I like to have high luck on my corrin so might as well give Nyx those icons. Seriously, Nyx can be made to work on Lunatic with just a little effort. Between tonics, attack stance/pair ups, and supports, you got everything you need to make Nyx work. 

 

1 hour ago, wissenschaft said:

As I've said, I've made Nyx work on Lunatic without much trouble. But then maybe I like hyper specalized units. Hmm, reminds me of making Lilina work in FE 6, but Nyx takes way less effort. But then I use Peri on Lunatic as well. Maybe I'm crazy. lol Like I said, I like nuking the enemy during the player turn and Nyx and Peri help me do so but yeah, shaky hit rates all around.

At the end of the day, that only affirms my stance about Nyx being a high maintenance unit, and I'd go so far as to say a liability.

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Shrug, I never found Nyx that hard to keep alive, she just doesn't want to be attacked and I like to wipe out whole groups of enemies in one turn. I'm often far more worried about my "tanky" units being overwhelmed or debuffed to death (I HATE enemy ninjas). But thats also why I like Fates conquest Lunatic so much. So many different viable ways to play through it.

As a side note more on topic, Nyx has wonderful S supports. Leo X Nyx is perfect match.

Edited by wissenschaft
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16 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

Shrug, I never found Nyx that hard to keep alive, she just doesn't want to be attacked and I like to wipe out whole groups of enemies in one turn. I'm often far more worried about my "tanky" units being overwhelmed or debuffed to death (I HATE enemy ninjas). But thats also why I like Fates conquest Lunatic so much. So many different viable ways to play through it.

As a side note more on topic, Nyx has wonderful S supports. Leo X Nyx is perfect match.

I will say that Nyx has some really good supports. Leo also has some really great supports, he's my favorite royal and maybe favorite character. 

23 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

With all due respect, I wouldn't exactly agree with Odin being great - he specializes in skill and luck, which aren't exactly my stats of choice to specialize in, and is a Master of None with regard to the other, more important stats. I'd much rather rely on Dragon Corrin to bait enemies like the aforementioned Takumi and Reina. As for Ophelia, I'd say Elise isn't THAT much better than Felicia for her despite the extra effort needed to pair her and Odin off.

Fair point about the difference between Felicia!Ophelia and Elise!Ophelia, I think the speed of access for Felicia!Ophelia is worth some slightly lower stats. Best ophelia has corrin as a mom though, but that goes for anyone.

I'm curious, because I don't know if you've ever outright listed it before (at least that I've seen), what are your qualifications for a "great" unit Mir? Everyone on this forum knows what you hate. At length. But what is "good" to you? 

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12 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

Also, I find it very odd that everyone calls Nyx a trash unit while praising Ophelia. They end up very similar characters, both glass cannons with similar growth.


Maybe because of Ophelia's Luck. No, honestly. I have read that Luck does not affect Critical Hit landing, but there is no way that Sorcerer Elise can land Critical Hits with less than 10 Skill if Luck was not factored. Why Sorcerer Odin delivers as many critical hits as Sniper Mozu is inexplicable to me if not because of his Luck. Either that or Odin and Ophelia have a hidden innate extra Critical Hit bonus, independent of their classes, weapon bonuses and Personal Skills. Man, Odin can land critical hits right in Chapter 8 (at L5-6 with Thunder), just like Ophelia does it in her chapter (at L10-11 with Thunder), sometimes during her very first phase!

By the end of Chapter 11, Silas, Effie and Corrinette have already faced tens of phases, and I bet good money that on any given campaign Odin has delivered more critical hits than any of them by then, and probably more than all of them together (a +Skill Cornflakes might be the exception.)

Ophelia is usually mothered by +Mag -Luck Corrin, thus my experience is biased, but she is a crit maniac even as a Dark Knight or Nohr Noble.
I tried Elise > Sorcerer Ophelia once again in my two last campaigns and she still lands crits like crazy. Do not wonder why, it is just her perk.

I often say that I will record the number of critical hits delivered by Odin and Ophelia, but I never do it. And on those campaigns where I started counting, they both were way ahead of the rest so fast that it was not worth keeping on the log.
Sniper Mozu and her daughter Wolssenger or Berserker Velouria were great challengers, but I still think that the mad mages won.

 

Back to Nyx, she is frailer and more inaccurate than Ophelia at any given point, and Ophelia has the advantage of a handy Personal Skill, a great Personal Weapon, a broken natural skill set (independent of her mother), and grants a VIP pass to Horse Spirit and Calamity Gate. That is why I think people praise Ophelia and not Nyx, even if they play the same role in the party.

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Sorcerer has an innate bonus to crit of 10% and odin's personal skill will give him another 10% crit. The same applies to Ophelia. Certainly Ophelia is stronger than Nyx but its not a vast gap and I never gamble on getting crits. I prefer sure kills.

Edited by wissenschaft
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3 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

Sorcerer has an innate bonus to crit of 10% and odin's personal skill will give him another 10% crit if he is using a forged weapon with at least 12 letters in its name.

Fixed that for you. Personally, with how unwieldy the forge system is, it ain't worth going out of my way for...

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I have first official and unofficial S-Supports

First Unofficial Support for Birthright. Technically the first support: Azura. I deleted my first run of Birthright because I wanted to start a new one.

First Official S-Support for Birthright: Setsuna. I used a Partner Seal on her to change her to Dark Mage and later Sorcerer. After that I changed her again to Witch class. I had a great time using Setsuna as a Witch. My unit's base/Heart Seal class was Mage, btw. 

First Official S-Support for Conquest: Selena. I haven't played another run of Conquest yet. 

But in short, Azura was the first S-Support. 

Edited by Smog
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10 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

Sorcerer has an innate bonus to crit of 10% and odin's personal skill will give him another 10% crit. The same applies to Ophelia. Certainly Ophelia is stronger than Nyx but its not a vast gap and I never gamble on getting crits. I prefer sure kills.


I said that I believed that Odin and Ophelia had a hidden independent extra Critical Hit Bonus independent of their classes, weapon bonuses and Personal Skills. I even wrote it in italics the first time and thought that it was clear, but I should probably have used a different font size. Either that or I need to write that whole sentence in German or Spanish to prevent confusions.

I know the bonuses, man. Odin promotes (in my campaigns) by Chapter 16 or so. Yet he delivers more critical hits than any of his teammates before that point, as a Dark Mage, with his normal not-forged Thunder tome. During Chapter 8, his peers are four or five levels ahead and have equal or higher Skill, yet the only one who delivers critical hits is Odin. Go figure.
In the case of Dark Mage Ophelia, it may be easier to picture because the bonuses from her Personal Skill and Missiletainn are often present, but even then, her Skill is lower than most of her peers and yet she lands way more crits.

 

Let us not make this thread about Odin and Ophelia. I find it interesting that their shown Critical Hit rates do not add to the crazy numbers that they actually deliver, and thus theorise that Luck (or a hidden bonus) is factored. But that is it. You may believe what you want, and I will continue seeing what I see.

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Oh, I knew what you meant. I just think its pure luck. I wish Odin worked like that for me. I'm not lucky enough to have a lot of crits with him early on. I haven't used him a lot though but I have not notice him having an abnormal amount of crits. The fact that only Odin is getting crits is telling me that its pure luck since theres no reason the other characters shouldn't be getting some crits in.

Edited by wissenschaft
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On 8/10/2018 at 9:57 PM, wissenschaft said:

The fact that only Odin is getting crits is telling me that its pure luck since theres no reason the other characters shouldn't be getting some crits in.

It could be Luck ;)


Edit
I just played Ch 13; Ophelia delivered three crits (one as main, the other two as follow-up, wielding Moonlight) and Odin delivered two more (one as main and one as follow-up [with cousin Lucina].) Both are still Dark Mages and Mjölnir and Odin's Grimoire are unavailable. Considering that they participated in 12-15 battles (most as follow-up), that is a crit every three battles. The other eight units combined delivered only one critical hit on this map.
Of course, a single event proves nothing; but other than the cute interaction with Lucina, the rest was 'normal' for Odin and Ophelia. It was not a super lucky map, it just how they are.

Edit II
Ch 14: Odin & Ophelia landed seven crits; the other eight units combined, one (Kaze.)
Ch 16: Odin & Ophelia got six crits; the eight others, one (Lucina.) Yet the mages were only used on the north-west part of the map, and did not participate after they reached L20.
See the pattern?... The numbers will just go higher as Sorcerers.

Edited by starburst
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My first S supports in Fates were Jakob (when I played as female) and Azura (when I played as male). I'd already played Awakening before Fates, so I knew that I would get to marry someone new the moment I saw the S rank in the support index. I just didn't know that Jakob was a pre-promoted unit, so I ended up deleting that file before I finished my playthrough, and took Takumi instead for my first full run. 

Right now, I have a Birthright/Lunatic run sitting in my files with Kaden as my husband, since I mistakenly thought marrying him would allow me to class into a Kitsune. Though it is fun having two giant foxes as my children, despite the Kitsune being a pretty lackluster class. No ranged attacks whatsoever, weak Defense and permanent weakness to Beast- weapons... Maybe this is why I'm having so much trouble finishing my Lunatic run. 

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On 10/8/2018 at 3:26 PM, Mandokarla said:

I'm curious, because I don't know if you've ever outright listed it before (at least that I've seen), what are your qualifications for a "great" unit Mir? Everyone on this forum knows what you hate. At length. But what is "good" to you? 

In general:

-Good stats in at least one of the important stats (Str/Mag depending on the unit, Speed, Defense) with decent stats most everywhere else

-Enough crit evade to not worry about eating random critical hits from rank and file units

-Utility (mainly the utility related to survival, like healing or stuff like Elise's personal skill)

-Must not actively drag the team down just by being deployed or otherwise be too much trouble to work with

Obviously, not everyone has the third one. Also, some utility just doesn't count for much - just ask Niles.

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My first playthroughs of FE Fates were spoiler-free. I decided I would go with Corrin and Azura since I could pair them in all three playthroughs... Imagine my shock when that reveal happened... 

For everyone else, I didn't care about kids, so I went with who would work best together gameplay-wise in terms of support bonuses and such:

  • Silas & Hinoka (Birthright & Revelations) / Selena (Conquest)
  • Camilla & Keaton (Conquest)

And... those are the only ones I can remember off the top of my head; it's been so long since I last played Fates, and, to be honest, I don't want to play it again. 

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On 10/8/2018 at 1:26 PM, Mandokarla said:

I will say that Nyx has some really good supports. Leo also has some really great supports, he's my favorite royal and maybe favorite character. 

Fair point about the difference between Felicia!Ophelia and Elise!Ophelia, I think the speed of access for Felicia!Ophelia is worth some slightly lower stats. Best ophelia has corrin as a mom though, but that goes for anyone.

I'm curious, because I don't know if you've ever outright listed it before (at least that I've seen), what are your qualifications for a "great" unit Mir? Everyone on this forum knows what you hate. At length. But what is "good" to you? 

Their response is the closest thing I've seen to any sort of contribution to a thread. 99.4% of everything else is just shitting on everything anyone says without giving any examples of what's "better". I like to pretend the posts don't exist because they might as well not exist.

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On 10/16/2018 at 6:59 PM, Shadow Mir said:

In general:

-Good stats in at least one of the important stats (Str/Mag depending on the unit, Speed, Defense) with decent stats most everywhere else

-Enough crit evade to not worry about eating random critical hits from rank and file units

-Utility (mainly the utility related to survival, like healing or stuff like Elise's personal skill)

-Must not actively drag the team down just by being deployed or otherwise be too much trouble to work with

I imagine all the mages fit in the first and fourth categories.

And number two obviously refers to one character in particular that we all know and love.  Where's the justice in this roast?

On 10/17/2018 at 11:23 AM, Centh said:

Their response is the closest thing I've seen to any sort of contribution to a thread. 99.4% of everything else is just shitting on everything anyone says without giving any examples of what's "better". I like to pretend the posts don't exist because they might as well not exist.

That really is how it feels whenever people talk about units.  They just say vague things like "Camilla's the best as a Wyvern Lord" or "Hinata sucks as a samurai" without listing their reasons for why they feel the way they do about these units.  And they'll never talk about any strengths, just pretending they're completely unusable; yeah, Setsuna's completely redundant when you have Takumi, but as an archer she's still usable to some extent.

You don't have to stroke everyone's ego's or talk about advanced calculations such as what the probability is that Rinkah will have a strength of twenty-two by the time Chapter 18 of Revelation rolls around, but you should say more than just "screw this unit" and you should acknowledge whatever positives they have so you can weigh those against the negatives (e.g. "Elise!Ophelia has the potential to deal massive damage thanks to her very high speed and magic stats, but she's always at high risk of getting killed if more than one unit attacks her because her defense is terrible, so I don't think she's worth fielding because I'm placing a liability on the field that I would rather not be babying around just for the payoff that she might one-shot an enemy or two").  I'd think of it as if I were posting critiques in the Creative boards; you can't just say "I don't like it", you need to elaborate.

Also feel the same way for character criticisms in general.

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On 10/17/2018 at 12:23 PM, Centh said:

Their response is the closest thing I've seen to any sort of contribution to a thread. 99.4% of everything else is just shitting on everything anyone says without giving any examples of what's "better". I like to pretend the posts don't exist because they might as well not exist.

I would sooner say that's how character discussions in general go. And didn't you wind up doing this in another thread (singing Niles's praises without so much as a peep as to why he's, as you so say, "baller")?? And you have the gall to post this? That's what I would call hypocrisy.

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would sooner say that's how character discussions in general go. And didn't you wind up doing this in another thread (singing Niles's praises without so much as a peep as to why he's, as you so say, "baller")?? And you have the gall to post this? That's what I would call hypocrisy.

Your posts are straight garbage in any analysis thread. Every single time you start a shit post with multiple users by saying their strats are terrible with either no reasoning or factually incorrect information. It's pointless. It's also hilarious seeing the high esteem and untouchability you pour into each one. I've tried looking to find a way to straight blacklist your content. It's time I can't get back. Please stop.

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6 minutes ago, Centh said:

Your posts are straight garbage in any analysis thread. Every single time you start a shit post with multiple users by saying their strats are terrible with either no reasoning or factually incorrect information. It's pointless. It's also hilarious seeing the high esteem and untouchability you pour into each one. I've tried looking to find a way to straight blacklist your content. It's time I can't get back. Please stop.

That makes two of us - far as I'm concerned, you seem to post bullshit with little, if any, actual substance far more often than not.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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Eventually we will see a Fates thread in which Mir and someone else don't start fighting. I hold out hope for that day. Mir, I do have to say that you tend to set the negative tone a lot of the time -- you come off rather abrasive in a great deal of your posts/responses to others. Idk if that's intentional or if you're aware of it, but that might be part of why a lot of people tend to not like you on this platform. I'm not even going to talk about your argument structures or your beliefs about the games -- that's not the problem. We had someone on this site that tried to argue that Lyn was a good unit, so no belief is really out of place here.  

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Birthright:Caeldori
Conquest: No one
Revelation:Caeldori

In conquest I didn't see a reason to force any S-Supports and in the lunatic runs, was it more important too keep my units at live.

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