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[FE5] Project Exile - Thracia 776 Script and Menu Translation - FULLY COMPLETE AND RELEASED!

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if safi's name isn't based on the arabic safi/safiya, then that takes all context out of the name, and now we have absolutely no reason to think that サフィ means anything, so correctness and incorrectness fly out the window since there's no meaning behind it and there's no reason not to use something subjectively nicer looking yet similar to the name like safiya, with the bonus that it picks up a more 'correct' meaning taken at face value in english.

 

i dig the parthian shot at the end of the other paragraph, super charming. i still can't see how that refutes what i said, but i agree with the general principle of the paragraph.

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24 minutes ago, De Geso said:

"Latching" is a strong word, I just mentioned it. But you're right, there's no reason not to use Safi. Why Safiya, then? Because the translation team liked it better?

While I personally would've been fine with keeping Safy, Safiya is an absolutely harmless name modification - and they list in the translator's notes it isn't JUST because of SAFY the organization - Safiya is a more natural sounding word for native English speakers. Maybe if they changed her name to something more extreme like Sapphire or w/e this would be worth complaining over, but as it is, its two extra letters to give the name better flow for the intended audience.

Nintendo has done this themselves in almost every Fire Emblem, especially with the handful of "made up" names that include Safy, such as Eldigan (from the literal ERUTOSHAN). I mean if you're in the camp we should've literally used Erutoshan over Eldigan well you do you, but Project Exile's tinkering with a few names is honestly better than what Nintendo of America has done (I really dislike Levin -> Lewyn and Sety -> Ced completely misses the point of his name). Safy -> Safiya is not on the same level as those.

 

29 minutes ago, De Geso said:

"Westerners don't understand Shintoism so I made the dialogue about free will instead because Westerners like free will."

"I thought this guy's dialogue was plain, but what I wrote is better because I said it is better."

"Honorifics are scary, so instead I came up with nicknames."

The only change that is arguable is the last one because some Westerners really are so dim as to misunderstand terms of endearment and nicknames are an easy way to circumvent that. I also never said that the changes were arbitrary - my disliking them is mostly because of the intent of the translator's intent rather than the apparent lack of one.

Project Exile only does the middle one, and only in the barest of senses - again, embellishing one off bandit boss death quotes. You dislike things because they're different, because they aren't 100% The Exact Same As The Japanese, which is.... an impossible desire. At least one impossible to have and also have a script that doesn't read like George Lucas writing romance scenes to native English speakers. Your only true solution is to yes, learn Japanese, and IDK what else to say to you about that.

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25 minutes ago, CappnRob said:

While I personally would've been fine with keeping Safy, Safiya is an absolutely harmless name modification - and they list in the translator's notes it isn't JUST because of SAFY the organization - Safiya is a more natural sounding word for native English speakers. Maybe if they changed her name to something more extreme like Sapphire or w/e this would be worth complaining over, but as it is, its two extra letters to give the name better flow for the intended audience.

Nintendo has done this themselves in almost every Fire Emblem, especially with the handful of "made up" names that include Safy, such as Eldigan (from the literal ERUTOSHAN). I mean if you're in the camp we should've literally used Erutoshan over Eldigan well you do you, but Project Exile's tinkering with a few names is honestly better than what Nintendo of America has done (I really dislike Levin -> Lewyn and Sety -> Ced completely misses the point of his name). Safy -> Safiya is not on the same level as those.

 

Project Exile only does the middle one, and only in the barest of senses - again, embellishing one off bandit boss death quotes. You dislike things because they're different, because they aren't 100% The Exact Same As The Japanese, which is.... an impossible desire. At least one impossible to have and also have a script that doesn't read like George Lucas writing romance scenes to native English speakers. Your only true solution is to yes, learn Japanese, and IDK what else to say to you about that.

Your first points are fair, and I certainly agree that NoA and Treehouse have made some poor localization choices with regards to name (Sety is especially egregious).

You are outright wrong about the second point. Read through the .pdfs again - the first one I mentioned comes up in the change to Cyas/Saias's dialogue about not hating "the sword." And again, it isn't just that one bandit boss's death quote - the notes say, "This dude's dialogue is so plain and boring that I scrapped it and rewrote it literally from scratch." I don't care what the translator's opinions of the writing are - keep the script intact.

Edited by De Geso

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in that case we're clearly at an impasse, and you've had your soapbox, so move along i guess

Edited by Integrity

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On 6/11/2019 at 8:17 AM, ThroningErmine8 said:

Any Japanese-English translation worth its salt takes creative liberties, else you get stiff dialogue at best and gobbledygook like "Murder Hollace" or "All your base are belong to us" at worst. Take it from someone trying to teach himself Japanese, Japanese and English are fundamentally different languages - their alphabets work differently, their sentence structures are different, Japanese pronunciation rules are more rigid, the list goes on. Whether you realise it or not, you're effectively complaining that this patch isn't Google Translated.

Never mind the alphabet, they're two different cultures.  Metaphors don't translate literally.

42 minutes ago, De Geso said:

I don't recall Safi being an Arab. I get that the translator found out that Safiya was actually a feminine Arabic name after making the change he already had made, and that's great and dandy, but Safy/Safi is not an Arab so her name being masculine in Arabic means nothing in the context of Thracia 776, which is not set anywhere that Arabic is anyone's first language. There are other examples (though none spring to mind as I write this) of names being masculine in one tongue and feminine in the next.

Does Hector look like he came out of The Iliad?  Is Ninian a literal lake goddess, or the name used for the dancer in FE7?  Does Titania/Tiamat look like a fairy/a monster?

Names and real-world settings don't match up in FE.  Deal with it.

26 minutes ago, CappnRob said:

Nintendo has done this themselves in almost every Fire Emblem, especially with the handful of "made up" names that include Safy, such as Eldigan (from the literal ERUTOSHAN). I mean if you're in the camp we should've literally used Erutoshan over Eldigan well you do you, but Project Exile's tinkering with a few names is honestly better than what Nintendo of America has done (I really dislike Levin -> Lewyn and Sety -> Ced completely misses the point of his name). Safy -> Safiya is not on the same level as those.

For Levin, maybe the translators didn't want people to think that the sword was named after him?

The Sety one grinds my gears, too.

Just now, De Geso said:

Your first points are fair, and I certainly agree that NoA and Treehouse have made some poor localization choices with regards to name (Sety is especially egregious).

You are outright wrong about the second point. Read through the .pdfs again - the first one I mentioned comes up in the change to Cyas/Saias's dialogue about not hating "the sword." And again, it isn't just that one bandit boss's death quote - the notes quite literally say at at least one point, "This dude's dialogue is so plain and boring that I scrapped it and rewrote it literally from scratch." I don't care what the translator's opinions of the writing are - keep the script intact.

Do it yourself.

As in, learn how to edit the patch.  Or patch the ROM and edit it.

But FFS, this is given to you for free.  If you're both the minority and that unhappy, use that energy for something more useful than whining about it.

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1 minute ago, eclipse said:

For Levin, maybe the translators didn't want people to think that the sword was named after him?

The Sety one grinds my gears, too.

given the significant nordic inspiration in jugdral, lewyn is probably just pronounced 'levin' anyway

 

nobody can take this away from me

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6 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Never mind the alphabet, they're two different cultures.  Metaphors don't translate literally.

Does Hector look like he came out of The Iliad?  Is Ninian a literal lake goddess, or the name used for the dancer in FE7?  Does Titania/Tiamat look like a fairy/a monster?

Names and real-world settings don't match up in FE.  Deal with it.

For Levin, maybe the translators didn't want people to think that the sword was named after him?

The Sety one grinds my gears, too.

Do it yourself.

As in, learn how to edit the patch.  Or patch the ROM and edit it.

But FFS, this is given to you for free.  If you're both the minority and that unhappy, use that energy for something more useful than whining about it.

Re Japan versus English: Correct.

Re Hector/Ninian/etc: No, they don't, and I see your point, but my point was that "well it's actually an arabic name so changing it is okay" is a flimsy excuse. It would be like changing Hector to Henry because Henry is a real name. You've missed the forest for the trees - I'm not concerned that Safiya is a bad name in itself, it's that it is a deliberate change.

Re "do it yourself:" Not having a price tag does not absolve something of criticism.

Anyway, I've said what I have to say. I'm not whining for the sake of it, I was just asking about questionable changes. In the future I will be sure to only speak positively as this forum may not be able to handle hearing things they do not like. Apologies for this being an edit rather than in the initial post.

Edited by De Geso

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i'll ignore everything else, only point out that hector is a real name (this would be more like changing a female character named henri to be named henrietta), and restate

11 minutes ago, Integrity said:

in that case we're clearly at an impasse, and you've had your soapbox, so move along i guess

 

Edited by Integrity

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RE: Safiya

I knew this was going to be a contentious change, and if you go back to the chapter 2x PDF and scroll down just a little bit, you'll find that I write a whole, page-splitting paragraph about it!

 

RE: Said dude's dialogue being boring and plain

I only did that for villagers, with whom localizers have historically had large leeway to transform (see: 8-4 and Shadow Dragon). Oh, and Raydrik's boss quote.

 

In what will likely be a vain attempt to move this conversation forward, I would like to recommend this article concerning one of my many translator inspirations, Jorge Luis Borges, and his views on translation. I will quote the closing section in particular (all emphasis mine):

Quote

Borges’ assessments of these translations suggest a very different perspective on the role of translation, not as an instrument to be used to hurl the source text violently at the target language, but as a medium of exchange, through which source text and target culture may be mutually enriched. Obviously, such mutual enrichment cannot take place if translators are to be hemmed in by the supposedly ethical obligation to subjugate all – including their readers – to the supreme sanctity of the source text.

 

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i read this super great translation of some of aristophanes' comedies that localized the jokes and they were great, i'm firmly in the borges camp

in either case though translation is fuckin hard

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Making things understandable to the vast majority of the audience > literal translation of the text

Even if I don't have time to play the patch, I appreciate the work that went into making it.  So thank you.

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8 minutes ago, Cirosan said:

RE: Safiya

I knew this was going to be a contentious change, and if you go back to the chapter 2x PDF and scroll down just a little bit, you'll find that I write a whole, page-splitting paragraph about it!

 

RE: Said dude's dialogue being boring and plain

I only did that for villagers, with whom localizers have historically had large leeway to transform (see: 8-4 and Shadow Dragon). Oh, and Raydrik's boss quote.

 

In what will likely be a vain attempt to move this conversation forward, I would like to recommend this article concerning one of my many translator inspirations, Jorge Luis Borges, and his views on translation. I will quote the closing section in particular (all emphasis mine):

 

I read the paragraph and I disagree with your reasoning, however as I have stated I appreciate your transparency with respect to your changes. And it's well and good that you only did it with villagers, but we can surely agree that your changes only came about because, right or wrong, in your opinion you could write something better. The precedent set by Fire Emblem's other mediocre to outright bad translations isn't something I necessarily agree with but I understand your reasoning behind sticking to that precedent.

I have read that article and as you can imagine I do not agree with Mr. Borges. Perhaps a private conversation between the two of us is in order, so we can discuss our differences in opinion without further derailing previous discussion ITT (and hopefully we can maintain polite discourse rather than devolving into an out-and-out argument). Of course, you are free to turn this invitation down as you will; I'm sure you are busy.

I'm aware that translation is challenging and though it may not seem like it I do appreciate the effort you took in making the patch in the first place. I simply don't agree with some of the changes you made. Also, even if you decided to take a self-satisfied tone, thanks for posting in response to what I have said. I admit my initial post was more callous than it ought to have been.

Edited by De Geso

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If I may, I would agree on the notion that text has to be made more presentable to a different audience if it's deemed necessary. On the other hand, I can say that changing the presentation of the content is a different matter than changing the content itself. I may just be looking wrong; but looking at the discussion here, it seems there's not an enough distinction made between the two.

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33 minutes ago, De Geso said:

I read the paragraph and I disagree with your reasoning, however as I have stated I appreciate your transparency with respect to your changes. And it's well and good that you only did it with villagers, but we can surely agree that your changes only came about because, right or wrong, in your opinion you could write something better. The precedent set by Fire Emblem's other mediocre to outright bad translations isn't something I necessarily agree with but I understand your reasoning behind sticking to that precedent.

I have read that article and as you can imagine I do not agree with Mr. Borges. Perhaps a private conversation between the two of us is in order, so we can discuss our differences in opinion without further derailing previous discussion ITT (and hopefully we can maintain polite discourse rather than devolving into an out-and-out argument). Of course, you are free to turn this invitation down as you will; I'm sure you are busy.

I'm aware that translation is challenging and though it may not seem like it I do appreciate the effort you took in making the patch in the first place. I simply don't agree with some of the changes you made. Also, even if you decided to take a self-satisfied tone, thanks for posting in response to what I have said. I admit my initial post was more callous than it ought to have been.

I appreciate you saying that, and you're welcome to join the PE discord if you want to discuss the script (we're literally discussing it all month).

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1 hour ago, eclipse said:

For Levin, maybe the translators didn't want people to think that the sword was named after him?

which is absolutely stupud because the sword absolutely WAS named after him 8V

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Personally, part of me feels the Levin/Lewyn thing is a result of someone missing that ヴ is not meant to be a w sound, but rather v.

Either way, I kinda like to think the same as Integrity on the matter.

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2 hours ago, eclipse said:

For Levin, maybe the translators didn't want people to think that the sword was named after him?

The Sety one grinds my gears, too.

My thoughts exactly on the Levin thing. Even though it'd be him named after the sword from the perspective of game releases. But not chronologically in the FE-verse, since the sword would come hundreds of years after Lewyn lived. Unless the Bolt Sword of Jugdral has the same characters as the Levin Sword, in which case, why didn't the translators just call it the Bolt Sword? Since the PoR magic axe was called the Bolt Axe, and which Awakening also named its magic axe.

As for Ced, Seh-t is still phonetically feasible from "Ced" I think. However, getting that requires yanking out the name's nails and inserting hot coals into its various orifices- it's a tortured pronunciation and I therefore don't like it that much myself. 

I guess they didn't want to make Seti and Forseti look too similar, and unless the Crusader had a different birth name and changed it upon being reborn as a Crusader, it'd be a weird coincidence the names matched like that. Nonetheless, the change undermines the connection between the tome/dragon "god" and the Crusader too much.

 

All this talk of translation and localization reminds me you don't even need words to have "translation" arguments:

52475_front.jpg52476_front.jpg

:P:

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The Levin Sword has little to do with the FE4 character. A levin is an old word for lightning, and it's likely it was independently chosen by 8-4 to avoid a boring "Thunder Sword" translation, and by the FE4 JP team because it'd be a cool name for their character. Then wehn it came time to localize that na;e for Awakening, they used Lewyn instead, which diffentiates him from the sword, sounds similar, looks closer to a proper name (being a contracted form of Llewellyn), and gives that character a name with a unique spelling, an extremely 8-4 thing to do.

Not that I was there to witness it, but it seems very likely to have been their thought process (and justifies why Lewyn is a really dang good name).

13 hours ago, De Geso said:

You are wrong about what I have and have not enjoyed. [...] For a simple example, Dragonball's localization is wildly different from the original in a number of ways, [...] When I was a child [...], yes, I did like Dragonball [...]

Okay, so I wasn't that wrong, it seems, was I? The fact that you went and looked at the original material and preffered it only says to me that you enjoyed both, but preffered the original, and that's perfectly fine?

I'm not gonna get into the detail of everything else you mentioned, but I'll say you are not making a very good case for yourself by calling out "bad localization practices" and then pointing at stuff that's both commonly accepted  if not outright encouraged in the field, especially these days. Like, culturalization is exactly what Cyas's convo falls into, and it's referenced as far back as Richard Honeywood's guidelines on good localization practices from like, 10 years ago.

I understand that you are quite familiar with the source language, but uh, video games localization (and subs/dubs translation) is literally my job, and what you call bad is not, actually??? It seems what you are describing would be failings in like, technical translation, live captioning or interpreting, which are wholly different approaches that aim for very different results.

Translating and localizing artistic media requires transformations. That's just part of the work, and yes, respectful of authorial intent. Be assured that those recent localizations you decried (also, the Phoenix Wright localizations are a state of the art, wtf) didn't change things without approval from either the artistic director or their representatives. We're not in touch with them in our fan translations, but we can generally infer a lot from just being extremely familiar with FE5 and Kaga's overall body of work (see: Pugi>Bhuj) so... there you go.

Edited by Miacis

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12 hours ago, Integrity said:

if safi's name isn't based on the arabic safi/safiya, then that takes all context out of the name, and now we have absolutely no reason to think that サフィ means anything, so correctness and incorrectness fly out the window since there's no meaning behind it and there's no reason not to use something subjectively nicer looking yet similar to the name like safiya, with the bonus that it picks up a more 'correct' meaning taken at face value in english.

 

i dig the parthian shot at the end of the other paragraph, super charming. i still can't see how that refutes what i said, but i agree with the general principle of the paragraph.

That doesn't explain why Belhalla exists.

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Well, this was an incredibly wild read. I for one am excited about this so some friends can play/understand it, and as someone who is fluent, I find these changes okay(in the context of the notes/discussion i.e name). Direct translations just do not exist for most things. I for one will be replaying w/ patch because I'm excited to see how it plays out as someone who hasn't followed.

On 6/11/2019 at 11:24 PM, Miacis said:

Hello. All the translated Japanese media worth its salt and that you're likely to have enjoyed happens to have followed a similar process. You just didn't know because nobody left you a nice honest pile of translation notes until we did.

Moreover, let me posit that it's doubtful you'd have enjoyed these media nearly as much if it weren't for those changes.

What you do now with that newfound knowledge is up to you.

Also, these are the truest words ever spoken

Edited by ムック
just adding more context

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@Cirosan and crew: just out of curiosity, would you all consider doing a translation of FE6? I read the Q&A on the front page so I know about the interest in programming/SPRG Studio/Berwick Saga/etc from various members of the team. Certainly don't mean immediately but sometime down the road. FE6 is in a place where it has a fully functional translation patch that's nowhere near as rough as the original FE5 translation patch was, but has a problem of being extremely stiff as they went heavy on the literal side of the translation and ends up coming across as rather boring to read with only part of the fault lying with the original writing. It could probably use a translation that takes minor liberties to try to figure out the characterization of the characters and give the game a bit more life and since there is already a heavily literal translation it should reduce some of the bellyaching about "b-b-but my literal translation, y u no gib it too me" complaints that you ran into with FE5. Could even advertise it as such out of the gate (call it a localization instead of a translation) and based on how many GBA FE hacks there are the actual process itself should be much simpler I'd imagine. 

Very much enjoying FE5 still, now bashing my head against 4x because boy did I run through the healing items in the previous chapter. 

Edited by TheNiddo

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I'm a bit confused, FE6's translation didn't seem that stiff to me.  Unless you're referring to the older one where Shanna was still Thany, in which case did you know that there's been a newer translation for a long while now?

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One I'm familiar with calls Shanna Shanna. From what I remember its still fairly stiff, and when I see people talking about the translation its still referred to as being stiff. Maybe its more the game dialogue itself then? 

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Yeah, FE6's story itself is pretty much that simple.  Now you ask if perhaps it could be more than that, and personally I'd rather wait for an official FE6 Echoes to make that attempt.

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