How canonically strong are these characters? - Day 13 (Tailtiu, Ninian, Morgan)

[Fire Emblem Fan]

2 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Why are people bringing up things like intellect and charisma when it comes to overall power/strength of a fighter? I'm pretty sure this tier list is based on who is the better fighter in a 1 on 1. 

Because those things directly impact how good or bad of a fighter someone can be and can absolutely be the determining factor in a 1 on 1 fight.

[Etrurian emperor]

Well that was a pretty successful day one. We had some pretty lively discussions so thanks for that. 

Now lets talk about some girls, some main heroines in fact. Today's characters are Caeda, Micaiah and Celica. 

Caeda: 7,5/10

When Caeda begins her journey she's probably a mere 6 since she's a complete newbie. But throughout the Archenea saga I think there's a lot to be said for giving Caeda an 7. She's always among Marth's earliest companions so after fighting through dozens of battles she should be highly experienced. She might be one of the more capable female sidekicks, she does plenty of recruiting for Marth's army and never needs anyone to rescue her. The people she recruits tend to be enemies so there's the implication she gets to these people by being in the thick of combat, again and again.

There's very little in the story that suggest Caeda isn't up to snuff. More people seem impressed by her rather than patronizing and even Marth's concern for her is more because how dear she is to him rather than any weakness on Caeda's part.

Micaiah: 6/10

I think Micaiah is a lot like Roy. She's a good general and support asset but not the best combatant. Micaiah's powers are often named by her comrades as highly valuable but they tellingly praise her as a powerful seer, not as a powerful Light Mage. Michaiah seems to be a naturally frail person if her petite size and tendency to collapse or feel drained are anything to go by. She also seems pretty vulnerable since she had to play the damsel for Sothe twice. The Black Knight as well thinks Michy is someone to be protected rather than a powerhouse in her own right.

That's not to say she's worthless in combat. She's often in the front lines and things like her refusing to accept the Black Knight using the rescue command or the flashback about Jarrod's words showing a picture of them in combat suggests the writing team really wanted to depict Michy doing her part to fight off Jarrod and his men rather than depend on the Blank Knight, and that she did it sufficiently.

Micaiah being a brains over brawns type of lord also makes her a battle foil for Ike who's undoubtedly extremely powerful but who outsources any sort of strategy to Soren.

Celica: 7,5/10

I think Celica isn't supposed to be as strong as Alm because their paths are so different. Alm is a warrior who goes to war while Celica is a priestess who goes on a pilgrimage. This makes Alm the more experienced fighter of the two. Alm might also spend more time training compared to Celica who really doesn't seem to like fighting. Even if Celica did train dutifully she didn't have Mycen like Alm did and while Nomah might teach her magic she doesn't have a swordplay mentor until Saber joins, and he doesn't seem to be teaching her any combat moves. And Celica needs rescuing a little bit too often to be seen as a fierce warrior

Still there's enough to argue that Celica is consistently competent at least. She might not go to war but she still faces a lot of danger which she proceeds to defeat. And while Celica needs a lot of rescuing this is either due to an ambush, natural disaster or manipulation. Celica never seems in danger of being unable to defend herself under normal circumstances. Celica is also able to use both magic and swords, and she's got a good head on her shoulders so she can be seen as a versatile and skilled fighter.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Etrurian emperor

[omegaxis1]

9 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Caeda: 7,5/10

When Caeda begins her journey she's probably a mere 6 since she's a complete newbie. But throughout the Archenea saga I think there's a lot to be said for giving Caeda an 7. She's always among Marth's earliest companions so after fighting through dozens of battles she should be highly experienced. She might be one of the more capable female sidekicks, she does plenty of recruiting for Marth's army and never needs anyone to rescue her. The people she recruits tend to be enemies so there's the implication she gets to these people by being in the thick of combat, again and again.

There's very little in the story that suggest Caeda isn't up to snuff. More people seem impressed by her rather than patronizing and even Marth's concern for her is more because how dear she is to him rather than any weakness on Caeda's part.

Well, Caeda does say something rather neat to Navarre that kind of indicates that she's gotten plenty strong. In the DLC of New Mystery, "By the sword", she has this:

Quote

Caeda: 
Wait, Navarre! Halt your blade!

Navarre: 
... You again? Begone from my sight.

Caeda: 
No! I won't let you kill Ogma! No matter how you might try to stop me!

Navarre: 
...Then stop me with your blade.

Caeda: 
No! Navarre... I won't kill you, either... I don't want to see you die. Both you and Ogma... are my comrades! And I won't allow my comrades to die! If you must fight Ogma... Then turn your blade on me first!

She basically makes the indication that she would kill Navarre in a fight that Navarre is picking. Like, that sort of says something. And Navarre is definitely one the stronger characters in the Archanea series, given his reputation invokes fear in people and even caused copycats to appear. 

9 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Celica: 7,5/10

I think Celica isn't supposed to be as strong as Alm because their paths are so different. Alm is a warrior who goes to war while Celica is a priestess who goes on a pilgrimage. This makes Alm the more experienced fighter of the two. Alm might also spend more time training compared to Celica who really doesn't seem to like fighting. Even if Celica did train dutifully she didn't have Mycen like Alm did and while Nomah might teach her magic she doesn't have a swordplay mentor until Saber joins, and he doesn't seem to be teaching her any combat moves. And Celica needs rescuing a little bit too often to be seen as a fierce warrior

Still there's enough to argue that Celica is consistently competent at least. She might not go to war but she still faces a lot of danger which she proceeds to defeat. And while Celica needs a lot of rescuing this is either due to an ambush, natural disaster or manipulation. Celica never seems in danger of being unable to defend herself under normal circumstances. Celica is also able to use both magic and swords, and she's got a good head on her shoulders so she can be seen as a versatile and skilled fighter.

In a straight on fight with Alm as we've seen, Alm had been mostly holding back against her, so Alm would definitely be the stronger fighter. However, 7.5 might be too high for her.  she's skilled, but given that she starts her journey by having Saber act as her bodyguard, it would sort of diminish her prowess. 6.5-7 for me. 

As for Micaiah, I agree there. Micaiah functions less as a fighter and more as a tactician. 

[Sunsurge]

12 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Lucina is the least convincing dude ever.

Well no shit for the audience. It's like saying Team Rocket is the least convincing villains when they dress up. Which duh, is true for the audience. But there's a certain amount of "in canon" it was stated she looked like Marth (who I mean wasn't the most masculine looking dude), and there are plenty of pretty-boys. And it's not like she's Camilla-level bust, so sure "we" the audience can tell because the developers made it easy for us to distinguish (this is a kids game), but the point is that she was convincing in-game.

So saying she beat Lon'qu is very valid in terms of her strength.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Sunsurge said:

she looked like Marth (who I mean wasn't the most masculine looking dude)

I hope you mean in terms of face. Cause Marth actually isn't slim in form. 

[Sunsurge]

@omegaxis1 I mean I don't know what else I would have been referring too. XD Lucina didn't have bulging muscles. LOL.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Caeda: Caeda is tougher than she looks, methinks. As others have pointed out, she could possibly beat Navarre in a fight, and she's in the heat of battle during all of her recruitment feats. Those are both pretty impressive. There's not much else to say about her, really, other than she's proven herself through battle. 7/10

Micaiah: Micaiah is one of the weakest protagonists, in my opinion. In each fighting scenario, she always has Sothe, Ike, the Black Knight, Skrimir, or Yune herself giving her some sort of assistance. She's like Roy in that she's a brains over brawn person, but honestly she really isn't as smart as Roy, and Soren is certainly her equal in tactical prowess. It doesn't help that she's bodysnatched by Yune for the last part of the game, taking away from her accomplishments. She's a good seer and a good tactician, but she definitely falls behind a bit in terms of her battle skills. 5/10

Celica: Celica is the opposite of Alm. While he's a fighter, she's really not. But even so, she is shown to at least be capable of holding her own, despite having Saber with her so often. Training with Alm helped a little as well, I'm sure. Celica does seem to be more skilled with magic than the sword, though, and in Fire Emblem that's a pretty strong thing. She's not the strongest of characters in the series, but she's still probably a 6.5/10, MAYBE a 7/10 if I'm being generous.

[Armagon]

14 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

You're missing one big detail though. This was merely a 9-day battle, which Duma and Mila surrendered. Not lost, merely surrendered. Imagine if they prolonged the fight to further? Two weeks? An entire month? If 9 days was causing serious cataclysmic damage, then had the battle lasted longer than that, the planet would be busted. 

By which only the surface of the planet would've taken massive damage. The mantle and the core would remain untouched. That war was cataclysmic sure but at the end of the day, the foundations of the planet would still remain, regardless of how long the war went on. Whether life would be able to recover from that is a different matter but as they say, life always finds a way.

Again, i doubt the war would've actually, literally, destroyed the planet.

14 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's more of a massive weather phenomenon. Just as there are parts of the planet that as 24-hour sunlight or nighttime, there are things like that.

A quick Google search reveals that stars never shine in the day. One of the few mentioned details of the Ending Winter is that stars were shining in the day. That's different from the 24-hour daytime/nightime experienced during the poles. The only possible day for stars to be visible during the day is if the atmosphere stopped existing, which at that point, every living thing on Earth is just fucked.

You could argue that the part where it snowed in summer was just a weather phenomenon but if science says anything, the stars shining during the day would imply that parts of the atmosphere were straight-up gone at the very least. That's one explanation, the other is that the laws of nature really did get fucked.

 

14 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Odin also described Grima as a "world-eater" and Naga also stated that Grima seeks to add to his power. So if he devours the entire planet, he basically has taken the power to add to his own.

Grima's huge but he's not that huge.

I'll leave it off here because we have gotten seriously off-topic and i need to anwser today's questions.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Caeda: Yeah, the 7 rating's fine. She's not an unbeatable master of the blade but she can definitely hold her own, even against Navarre. 

Micaiah: Lol, never played RD so i can't anwser this.

Celica: Probably like a 6/10 on the power scale.  She's not weak and she can fight well but like, that's mostly it. She has magic, lots of it and if you want to throw Omega Ragnarok into the mix, she can hit pretty hard. All of this drains her health when using it so she has to be smart about it. Although if we're talking sheer magical power, then due to having Ragnarok, one of the most powerful spells in the series, that bumps her up to like an 7-8. 

She'd overall place higher but her greatest strength is also her greatest weakness, which is why she's a 6 on the power scale.

[omegaxis1]

8 minutes ago, Armagon said:

By which only the surface of the planet would've taken massive damage. The mantle and the core would remain untouched. That war was cataclysmic sure but at the end of the day, the foundations of the planet would still remain, regardless of how long the war went on. Whether life would be able to recover from that is a different matter but as they say, life always finds a way.

Again, i doubt the war would've actually, literally, destroyed the planet.

A quick Google search reveals that stars never shine in the day. One of the few mentioned details of the Ending Winter is that stars were shining in the day. That's different from the 24-hour daytime/nightime experienced during the poles. The only possible day for stars to be visible during the day is if the atmosphere stopped existing, which at that point, every living thing on Earth is just fucked.

You could argue that the part where it snowed in summer was just a weather phenomenon but if science says anything, the stars shining during the day would imply that parts of the atmosphere were straight-up gone at the very least. That's one explanation, the other is that the laws of nature really did get fucked.

2

I mean, by that logic, even the Ending WInter wouldn't destroy the planet either, so the rankings of the two would still be mostly about even. After all, even with the Ending Winter, humans adapted to it just fine and suffered nothing from it. It only affected dragons.

8 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Grima's huge but he's not that huge.

 

 Oh, he isn't, but he's definitely big enough to cause massive damage. 

Spoiler

I personally think with the power he should have and the size, his attacks should be able to damage like the Tornan Titan was revealed to have been able to do in the past. 

 

8 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Celica: Probably like a 6/10 on the power scale.  She's not weak and she can fight well but like, that's mostly it. She has magic, lots of it and if you want to throw Omega Ragnarok into the mix, she can hit pretty hard. All of this drains her health when using it so she has to be smart about it. Although if we're talking sheer magical power, then due to having Ragnarok, one of the most powerful spells in the series, that bumps her up to like an 7-8. 

1

You ever get the feeling magic tends to get underplayed most of the time? 

[Icelerate]

I can only talk about Micaiah because I've only played FE6-FE10. I agree that Micaiah isn't a strong fighter compared to other FE lords. Her strengths are her mysterious powers, charisma and being clever. 

Unlike the other FE lords, Micaiah hasn't had any type of military training. Even the other fellow brain over brawn lord, Roy, has had combat training from the veteran knight Marcus so it stands to reason she's the weakest FE lord in terms of being a combatant. RD's plot even shows that she's not exactly a one man army and needs constant protection from Sothe, Black Knight and others more so than the other RD leaders and other FE lords. She also doesn't get a legendary weapon by end game. 

Regardless, Micaiah is quite skilled at using light magic. She managed to blind every single guard and avoided blinding Sothe which goes to show she has great aim and control over her magic especially considering how she was in a dangerous situation where focusing to cast magic would be tough (2:06-2:10). Towards the end of part one, Micaiah is healing wounded soldiers with sacrifice despite it taking a lot of energy but doesn't show signs of weakness despite the fact she's also stressed out with the burden of commanding the army and mingling with people, both of which goes against her isolated nature. 

Spoiler

(Micaiah casts Sacrifice on Daein Soldier)

Daein Soldier:
“It’s amazing… My wound is healed. I give you thanks.”

 

In part 4, when Micaiah gets promoted by Yune. She implies that Micaiah is strong enough to fight most of the opponents by herself, even though they are all Ashera enhanced. 

Spoiler

Yune:
“…And once we get inside, you can leave most of the fighting to Micaiah.”

(Micaiah promotes to Light Priestess)

Yune:
“Something like this should work.”

 

Micaiah and Ike are among the top 11 fighters Yune was talking about. 

Spoiler

Yune:
“They’ll have much stronger forces inside the tower…not to mention Ashera herself. We’ll send in our best 11. Oh, and we’ll want the two dragons! …And one from the heron tribe… And…uh…the empress. Plus, it wouldn’t hurt to have Sothe.”

 

I'll give her a 6 overall. It doesn't look like endgame power is rated as heavily or else people would be giving Roy a much higher. 

[Etrurian emperor]

We have taken a look at both heroes and heroines, so now its time for some villains. Its time we discuss Julius, Nergal and Grima

Julius: 9/10

Julius is a tricky one. He's the Antichrist but he is also a bratty teenager with a history of being sickly.

Julius is getting a 9 on the basis of having the strongest dark tome of the continent which makes him invulnerable to most attacks too. As an individual fighter I probably would only barely score him a 7. I think being such a brat might really hold Julius back. As a lazy teenager he seems the type to skip training, probably because he's too busy burning kitties or drowning puppies, this unlike his girlfriend and father who take things more seriously. Taking things seriously might be a bit of a problem for him in general. When first encountered Julius describes his fight against the rebels as a ''game'', rather than fighting he's merely ''playing''. Julius getting defeated in Miletos might be more canon than most big villains technically being able to get defeated early on,  its not unlikely that Julius got a bloody nose because he was being too cocky. All in all Julius strikes me as one that has the power of the Antichrist but the skill of a perpetual slacker. And if you got Satan's power to draw on then that might be all you need.

According to Ishtar Julius has always been sickly and he spends some chapters of Tracia pretty much in a coma. Drawing on Loptyr's power makes it worse instead of better so Julius could end up having a stroke on the battlefield. 

Julius is incredibly powerful but also gets carried a lot by his tome and the gimmick it comes with. Without Loptyr shielding him Arvis might even be capable of giving this brat the spanking he so deserves. 

Nergal: 10/10

Few main villains are as hyped up as Nergal. As a boss he ends up disappointing but luckily for Nergal this discussion doesn't take stats into account. The story spends a lot of time establishing Nergal as something really special. According to various characters Nergal is practically immortal, regular weapons don't phase him, fatal wounds aren't fatal but a temporary setback and Nergal can even shrug off a legendary weapon. Despite his dark magic protecting him from most harm he doesn't seem to be completely dependent on that like Gharnef. Nergal has a vast amount of other tricks like the ability to summon a boss gauntlet of some of the most dangerous Elibian fighters or power that surpasses that of a famed archsage. Nergal might even be capable of enslaving dragons though the one who tells us that is Darin after he became crazy so its up in the air whether its true or not. 

On my rating scale I suggested a perfect score could go to the legendary heroes of old. Well, Nergal gets shown to be even stronger than one of Elibe's legendary heroes which is enough to give him a perfect score as well. Other villains are so dangerous because they happen to rule the strongest nation of the continent or because they have the backing of an evil dragon. Nergal manages to be a continent wide treat all by himself. 

Nergal's only weakness is that he's grown senile and insane in his old age. Nergal spending so much time cackling that it gives someone the change to stab him in the back would be completely in character. 

Grima: 11/10

Grima might be lacking in personality but he certainly isn't lacking in raw power. Grima might just be the strongest figure in the entire series. In Lucina's future he managed to win utterly and completely. There were no threats left and no loose ends to be tied up. Without time travel Lucina's world would be doomed forever. 

A lot can be said about Grima but the strongest argument in his favor is that he killed Naga . Just about every treat in the Kaga era is shown to be inferior to Naga and yet Grima still manages to kill her. This already makes him the superior to both Loptry and Duma at least. Grima the dragon is also unbeaten by the Awakening cast. They managed to kill him by attacking the human host instead of the gigantic dragon. And even with that weakness being able to summon a zombie army could ensure no one even reaches the human host. 

Plus he's huge. If all else fails then just stepping on his opponent is enough to do the trick.

[Punished Dayni]

Huh, so Celica's counted for the modern era? Huh.

Caeda: Seems to not be that exceptional if you don't look too much at her. She's obviously brave, is clearly shown to have some ability and of course she has her own personal that allows her to do a lot. Everyone who does ask her to stand back is told "No, I don't think I will", she gets several people to join her, indicating her own charisma and abilities in negotiation and she sees fighting alongside Marth as something that has to be done for the sake of the world, rather than being one to fight just because. I'd think a 7 is the right number, maybe, I could push her to 6, though that's more because I'm trying to find more direct combat stuff in story for her. 

If we were going only on gameplay I would argue 8/10 because the Wing Spear allows her to help Marth with so many enemies and those recruited allies can clearly see just how much blood she's spilled (right?).

I refuse to rate a Tellius character for this until I've played the games, so N/A for Michiah.

Celica: In story terms, I kind of feel she gets shafted a bit. She's clearly well regarded in her training as a priestess. She's also one of the two branded children of prophecy, indicating that her access to Ragnarok isn't exactly out of the story either. While she makes the move to hire Saber, this is offset by the fact that she's otherwise working with three mages, it's not like Alm doesn't have anyone he's working with over the course of his story. She also brings several people in because of her ability, as seen with Valbar and his men or the pegasisters. However, once we come to Zofia Castle, we see Celica needing the help of Conrad twice in quick succession and he comes back to stop Dolth killing her too. She also is quite easily caught and shows almost no resistance to Jedah when it all hits the fan, though those are more issues with her being too willing to listen to Jedah as the one chance she has to bring back Mila. There's also the point that Alm is still holding her off pretty well in the cutscene where they fight each other, but I do think he'd be more in trouble the longer that fight went on, indicating that's she's not massively weaker than him. I'm clearly of the opinion that she's at least a 7, though that's with the caveat that in particular I'm rating her relative to Alm, who's another story.

21 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

You ever get the feeling magic tends to get underplayed most of the time? 

Don't tell Reinhardt.

Edit: Oh shoot, it's day 3 already. I'll write that up later.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Dayni

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Few main villains are as hyped up as Nergal. As a boss he ends up disappointing but luckily for Nergal this discussion doesn't take stats into account. The story spends a lot of time establishing Nergal as something really special. According to various characters Nergal is practically immortal, regular weapons don't phase him, fatal wounds aren't fatal but a temporary setback and Nergal can even shrug off a legendary weapon. Despite his dark magic protecting him from most harm he doesn't seem to be completely dependent on that like Gharnef. Nergal has a vast amount of other tricks like the ability to summon a boss gauntlet of some of the most dangerous Elibian fighters or power that surpasses that of a famed archsage. Nergal might even be capable of enslaving dragons though the one who tells us that is Darin after he became crazy so its up in the air whether its true or not. 

7

Should be noted that Nergal isn't t first immune to normal weapons. Eliwood's father, an epic badass, manages to fatally wound Nergal that forces him to retreat and is what buys them time. Nergal is mostly considered immortal due to having harvested vast amounts of quintessence from others, which makes sense as to why he's so strong. However, given how strong the dragons are in comparison to him, I feel it should be underplayed, since the Fire Dragon we fight is even stronger than him, and it's a Fire Dragon, not even a Divine Dragon.

Personally, I still hold the faith that the Fire Dragon summoned from that dimension is an Archanean Fire Dragon since 4 Legendary Elibe Weapons and a Spirit Weapon as strong as Legendary Weapon had a hard time against one of them. And this is despite how it's presumed that NInian weakened this dragon, since she used her power to take out two others at the same time. 

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Grima: 11/10

Grima might be lacking in personality but he certainly isn't lacking in raw power. Grima might just be the strongest figure in the entire series. In Lucina's future he managed to win utterly and completely. There were no threats left and no loose ends to be tied up. Without time travel Lucina's world would be doomed forever. 

A lot can be said about Grima but the strongest argument in his favor is that he killed Naga . Just about every treat in the Kaga era is shown to be inferior to Naga and yet Grima still manages to kill her. This already makes him the superior to both Loptry and Duma at least. Grima the dragon is also unbeaten by the Awakening cast. They managed to kill him by attacking the human host instead of the gigantic dragon. And even with that weakness being able to summon a zombie army could ensure no one even reaches the human host. 

Plus he's huge. If all else fails then just stepping on his opponent is enough to do the trick.

As much as I love to hype up Grima, I should at the very least point out that there's a likely chance that Naga's title as Naga cannot die, as another can take her place, or she reincarnates once more. Though yes, props for Grima actually being able to "kill" Naga as it were. But yeah, a definite hype that Grima is the only villain that fully and truly won until time travel was brought in. He's about as big as a threat it can be. 

Though I do criticize that there was never any full explanation as to why Grima didn't just personally kill Lucina and just put it off until Lucina made contact with Naga. So he did technically leave a loose end behind. 

Also, this is how strong I think Grima is and the fact that they were on Grima's body also prevented Grima from just doing this:

Spoiler

 

 

[Etrurian emperor]

15 minutes ago, Dayni said:

Huh, so Celica's counted for the modern era? Huh.

I think it makes more sense to place Echoes in the 3ds era. Kaga came up with most characters but he didn't exactly give them anything to work with. I think most arguments for Celica and all other Gaiden characters will much more likely stem from their portrayal in Echoes then whatever rare words they uttered in Gaiden. I doubt anyone will base their score on their Gaiden portrayal. 

 

21 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

21 hours ago, Armagon said:

 

You ever get the feeling magic tends to get underplayed most of the time?

It depends on the games really. Tellius is all about warriors and physical strength, and in Fateslandia the strongest fighters are physical ones rather than magical ones.  But in Elibe magic is depicted as vastly more powerful than the sword with both Nergal and Athos being able to do more than physical fighters ever could. In Jugdral magic seems more powerful than other continents too as the legendary spells are usually big enough to fill most of the screen and no one has any resistance to speak of. 

[omegaxis1]

12 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

It depends on the games really. Tellius is all about warriors and physical strength, and in Fateslandia the strongest fighters are physical ones rather than magical ones.  But in Elibe magic is depicted as vastly more powerful than the sword with both Nergal and Athos being able to do more than physical fighters ever could. In Jugdral magic seems more powerful than other continents too as the legendary spells are usually big enough to fill most of the screen and no one has any resistance to speak of. 

Yeah, magic is really not that highly regarded so much in the Tellius series, even though ironically, its magic has evolved so strongly that they manufactured Warp Staves that was used in Part 4 to send battalions to intercept the Yune Fighters. 

As for Elibe, the strongest Legendary Weapon is a sword though, being the Binding Blade. Jugdral though did have the strongest weapon be a tome, since the Naga tome is gamebreaking as hell. Though most mages don't get enough credit. I would say that Nergal is the most powerful of the Gharnef archetype only in regards to how he shows off his powers a lot more in story for combat. And this is despite how Gharnef has the invincible tome of Imhullu.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Oh boy, villains now, huh? Let's see...

Julius: By himself, I don't think Julius is all that powerful. He's got some magic skill, but he's sickly and frail. It's really his possession from Loptyr that gives him power, and even then he doesn't take it seriously and acts really bratty. Even so, Loptyr IS very powerful and shouldn't be downplayed. By himself, I'd put Julius at about a 6/10, and at a 9/10 with Loptyr's power.

Nergal: I personally believe that Nergal is one of the strongest characters in the series, and that's without any bias. The story and lore of his game show his raw power and abilities to be as great as Athos and the other legendary warriors of old. Stacking him up against other antagonists of the series, and he's honestly much stronger than most of them. He isn't quite invincible, though, as Elbert gave him a near-fatal wound. But then again, maybe that's just a testament to how strong Elbert is. Either way, Nergal is at least a 9.5/10, possibly even a 10/10.

Grima: I really don't even have to say anything. It took a lot, a LOT, to actually beat him. 10/10

[Heir of Dragons and Beasts]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Should be noted that Nergal isn't t first immune to normal weapons. Eliwood's father, an epic badass, manages to fatally wound Nergal that forces him to retreat and is what buys them time. Nergal is mostly considered immortal due to having harvested vast amounts of quintessence from others, which makes sense as to why he's so strong. However, given how strong the dragons are in comparison to him, I feel it should be underplayed, since the Fire Dragon we fight is even stronger than him, and it's a Fire Dragon, not even a Divine Dragon.

Personally, I still hold the faith that the Fire Dragon summoned from that dimension is an Archanean Fire Dragon since 4 Legendary Elibe Weapons and a Spirit Weapon as strong as Legendary Weapon had a hard time against one of them. And this is despite how it's presumed that NInian weakened this dragon, since she used her power to take out two others at the same time. 

As much as I love to hype up Grima, I should at the very least point out that there's a likely chance that Naga's title as Naga cannot die, as another can take her place, or she reincarnates once more. Though yes, props for Grima actually being able to "kill" Naga as it were. But yeah, a definite hype that Grima is the only villain that fully and truly won until time travel was brought in. He's about as big as a threat it can be. 

Though I do criticize that there was never any full explanation as to why Grima didn't just personally kill Lucina and just put it off until Lucina made contact with Naga. So he did technically leave a loose end behind. 

Also, this is how strong I think Grima is and the fact that they were on Grima's body also prevented Grima from just doing this:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Doing what

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, AzuraxCorrin(M)4Life said:

Doing what

Spoiler

Firing a beam that can destroy nations and continents. They are on his body, so he can't even fire his blasts of energy at full power since he's more than likely hitting himself.

 

[Armagon]

Julius: 9/10. He possesses an incredibly powerful tome, is the vessel of Lopytr, and effectively reduces the damage he takes by half unless struck by the Book of Naga. And he knew that. That's why he told Manfroy to dispose of Julia but Manfroy was a fucking idiot. Had it not been for Julia, Seliph and the gan defeating Julius would've been a lot harder.....or Julius possibly triumphed.

Nergal: 10/10. They hype the shit out of this guy. He's immortal and so powerful that he takes a Forblaze to the face and shrugs it off. He's not immune to wounds and, when caught off guard, can be hurt. But he's too powerful. Realistically, our heroes shouldn't have been able to beat him but the game can't end like that, can it?

Grima: Endbringer/10. This guy won. Like, there is canonically a timeline in which he wins. He's huge enough to dwarf Ylisse Castle and basically sent the world into the apocalypse. He also killed Naga and can't be killed by anyone but himself.

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Personally, I still hold the faith that the Fire Dragon summoned from that dimension is an Archanean Fire Dragon since 4 Legendary Elibe Weapons and a Spirit Weapon as strong as Legendary Weapon had a hard time against one of them. And this is despite how it's presumed that NInian weakened this dragon, since she used her power to take out two others at the same time. 

I think that's only gameplay-wise though (since Fire Dragon is one of the tougher bosses in the series). The reason those weapons were there were originally meant to defeat Nergal, which shows just how powerful he is. And Nergal was at full strength compared to the Fire Dragon.

Not trying to play down the Fire Dragon's strength here btw, i just think the only reason they may have had a hard time against one of them is because they were already exhausted from fighting Nergal.

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Grima: Endbringer/10. This guy won. Like, there is canonically a timeline in which he wins. He's huge enough to dwarf Ylisse Castle and basically sent the world into the apocalypse. He also killed Naga and can't be killed by anyone but himself.

 

Hah! I get it!

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

I think that's only gameplay-wise though (since Fire Dragon is one of the tougher bosses in the series). The reason those weapons were there were originally meant to defeat Nergal, which shows just how powerful he is. And Nergal was at full strength compared to the Fire Dragon.

Not trying to play down the Fire Dragon's strength here btw, i just think the only reason they may have had a hard time against one of them is because they were already exhausted from fighting Nergal.

For the record, the weapon meant to beat Nergal wasn't the other Legendary Weapons really, but more just Aureola, which Athos went specifically to stop Nergal with. This works as gameplay-wise, it was the only weapon that deals effective damage against Dark Druids. 

[omegaxis1]

@Armagon What do you think? Had a friend made this for me the moment I saw your post:

Spoiler

 

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

They hype the shit out of this guy. He's immortal and so powerful that he takes a Forblaze to the face and shrugs it off. He's not immune to wounds and, when caught off guard, can be hurt. But he's too powerful. Realistically, our heroes shouldn't have been able to beat him but the game can't end like that, can it?

Nergal is not above bluffing, yes he takes less damage from that Forblaze attack than he should have, but then he later says this:

Limstella:
“Shall we begin the process right away?”

Nergal:
“No, I lost some quintessence from the injuries I took from Athos. To summon the numbers I need, I must have more essence. One must be fully prepared when dealing with dragons. If they wrested free from my control and killed me, all would be for naught.”

He should have retained dragon-controlling power after the Forblaze hit if he was so strong. This also points out Nergal's biggest weakness- the man is mad. Sure all FE villains tend to be arrogant and that is a fault they share, but Nergal is outright insane and totally irrational.

He tries to start a war in Lycia, which turns out to have been unnecessary because all he needed was Elbert's quintessence to open the Dragon's Gate. And if he hadn't tried to start his Lycian civil war, Eliwood and co. would never have discovered him and his evil plans. 

 

Precisely for his irrationality, I can't rate Nergal that high. His dark powers are great, and would make him stronger than Ashnard and probably Walhart. But in contest of the big bads, I'm sure Manfroy, although weaker, could do a decent job of restraining him indirectly due to his brains, and Sephiran, being more sane if possibly weaker, could also figure out how to work around Nergal and defeat him. As could Zephiel. Nergal is a wild beast, and unlike Grima, is only the size of an ordinary human.

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Precisely for his irrationality, I can't rate Nergal that high. His dark powers are great, and would make him stronger than Ashnard and probably Walhart. But in contest of the big bads, I'm sure Manfroy, although weaker, could do a decent job of restraining him indirectly due to his brains, and Sephiran, being more sane if possibly weaker, could also figure out how to work around Nergal and defeat him. As could Zephiel. Nergal is a wild beast, and unlike Grima, is only the size of an ordinary human.

I think nothing Nergal did could ever rival the epic fail that is Manfroy insisting on keeping Julia alive.

[Interdimensional Observer]

28 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I think nothing Nergal did could ever rival the epic fail that is Manfroy insisting on keeping Julia alive.

At least Manfroy has total victory in the 1st Gen, Nergal never has total victory. Nergal's attempts at manipulation always end in failure.

This is not to worship Manfroy however, his second gen performance is problematic to say the least, particularly when he, for a moment, with kidnapping Julia, regains his 1st gen invincibility, only to inexplicably lose it again later.

To repost a prior breakdown of Nergal's follies I made:

Spoiler

1. Tricks Ninian and Nils to crossing over the Dragon's Gate. Doesn't summon more dragons. Why? Probably not enough quintessence to control them, which would be reasonable if he was just testing out the Gate when Ninian and Nils came over. If he couldn't lure anyone through the Gate, he couldn't open it and collecting quintessence for the task would be meaningless.
2. An undefined period of time when Nergal had Elbert and N&N, yet he doesn't open the Gate. This opportunity was lost when N&N tried to escape Dread Isle. And despite having Elbert, Nergal still tried to start a war in Lycia, which provided the trail of connections which led LEH to Dread Isle. So, had Nergal abandoned his Lycia plans and just offered up Elbert, all would have gone over well for him.
3. Hector C21- Nergal tries using Ninian to open the Dragon's Gate. Despite not having started the war he was planning to get a massive amount of quintessence from, Nergal is able to get the necessary amount just from killing Elbert. Tries to kill LEH via the Fire Dragon summoned, but Nils interrupts the summoning and the Fire Dragon dies caught between dimensions. Before Nergal can kill LEH and recapture N&N, the dying Elbert stabs Nergal with what must be a random small knife badly enough that Nergal must flee and heal his wounds to the point he can control dragons again by gathering fresh quintessence, this is until Hector C29.
4. Nergal, who must have been keeping an eye on LEH the whole time, comes to take N&N after C29, and despite having the power to take both siblings and LEH, he agrees to Ninian's begging and takes only her. Leaving a "parting gift" of a magical blast that could have killed everyone, but didn't because Athos was there. Athos for some reason doesn't attack Nergal, which could have kept him from dragon summoning. With Ninian in tow and himself in good health, Nergal could have summoned dragons, but he doesn't. Nergal shifts Ninian and lets her run off to Eliwood.
5. This brings up the Hector C30 opportunity, where Nergal shows up after Ninian is killed. Why? Probably to collect the quintessence of her mentioned before, though he does say he's there for Nils too, since Ninian refused to obey him. Needing Ninian's obedience is odd since Nergal didn't need it back in HC21 when he brainwashed her, and the Fire Dragons he planned to summon certainly wouldn't obey him of their own accord. However, in showing up to mock Eliwood in his misery and get Ninian's essence and Nils, Nergal, just as he is about to kill LEH, is attacked by Athos for 5 displayed damage, in response to which he says: Nergal:
   “The purest fire… Flame breath. Very impressive, Archsage Athos. However… However, fire is no longer my foe! Look! Not even a legendary blade can cause me harm! At long last, I am impervious! Ha ha…ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!”

6. After this laugh, Nergal teleports away. And then tells Limstella the injury leaves him incapable of controlling dragons now, since he already went through the Black Fang's quintessence reserves. While it seems that Limstella's power augmentations were done shortly before LEH showed up for the final battle, I think this implies the Black Fang Super Replicas made with the BF essences of the originals were done earlier than that, unless they're cheap to make (then why didn't he make more?). Nergal fails to kill the heroes in the final battle, thus losing his final chance to control dragons and the world. His final statement (with the 19xx addition): 

   Nergal: “Why? Why must I lose? More power… I must be… stronger… I… Why? Why did I… want power? ……Quintessence? [No NoA, it's Aenir!] …Don’t…under…stand… but… Gaa… Not like this… I will not die…like this. With my last breath… tremble…and…despair. Hwah ha ha… Ha…ha ha ha…”

 

[Etrurian emperor]

We looked at heroes, heroines and villains so now I'd like to try my hand on some minor characters. I'm curious to see what will happen there. Maybe fans will come out of the woodwork to talk about characters that aren't discussed that often or maybe it being more obscure characters will make participation drop like a rock. Time to find out if people are interested in discussing Azelle, Chad and Frederick. 

Azelle: 7,5/10

Azelle looks like a sissy. He's got the girly long hairs and a face portrait that let some people mistake him for a shota despite being 18 years old. Azelle doesn't seem to have any noticeable muscle on him and his grand starting strength of zero might be there to suggest that Azelle is a weakling. 

Luckily for Azelle magic depends on someone's mind rather than his body. Despite his appearance and meekness Azelle has several things going for him. He's got holy blood which makes him more powerfull than the average individual and magic is supposed to be more powerful in Jugdral. With these things Azelle will always be able to pull his weight. Another reason that might make Azelle more powerful can be found in the personality of him and his brother. Arvis is likely to have personally taught magic to his little brother and he strikes me as a very strict teacher. Azelle is a good boy who must have taken his studies seriously, Azelle is also terrified of Arvis and especially about letting him down. If Arvis wouldn't accept a mediocre student then Azelle would study his butt off to not let Arvis down. Even if Azelle doesn't have the raw power of Lewyn then Arvis would have personally seen to it that his little brother has plenty of skill. 

Azelle has soft features but artwork of him in his Mage Knight class often show sharper features which suggest that Azelle might have buffed up during his adventures which would eliminate his weak body as a weakness in the later chapters. 

Chad: 3/10

I don't think Chad is supposed to be anything other than a weakling. He's a boy even younger than Roy and unlike other shota's he has neither magic, bows nor axes to make him useful in a fight, he just as a tiny knife. As an orphan he is unlikely to have gotten any sort of combat experience and no one taught him the basics of fighting. In one of his supports Chad shows he's very uncertain about not being able to contribute with magic like his fellow orphan amigo's. Its not strictly canon but the manga also has Chad captured by random mooks which isn't a good sign.

So Chad is a wimp....and that's okay. Chad has other ways to contribute. He's a thief so he needs to steal and spy for Roy, something both Roy and even jerky Raigh compliment him on. If Chad ever gets in a position where he needs to fight it just shows he screwed up.  

Frederick: 8,5/10

Frederick is a Jeigan which already suggests he's plenty powerful. You don't get to be the chief guardian of a prince if you're not really good at your job. Unlike other Jeigan's Frederick is still in his prime with neither old age, sickness or wounds to hold him back. 

Its easy to see Frederick as one of the stronger Shepherds, especially in the beginning. He's among the oldest ones, fills out the Jeigan role in the group and seems to be regarded as a leading member. He's heavily armored which gives him defense, rides a pony which gives him mobility despite the armor,  and can wield the three main physical weapons which makes him versatile. Frederick must be in fantastic shape because he doesn't just train rigorously but obsessively which naturally makes sure Frederick is highly skilled as well. 

Fredericks character gimmicks translate well to fighting. If ''Frederick the wary'' is a careful individual then he is going to be cautious fighter, if nothing escapes his notice then he would be unlikely to fall for any trick his opponents tries to pull. If Frederick is a zealot about serving Chrom and Lissa he's going to be a zealot about protecting them as well. Even if the enemies manage to wound him then Frederick would just keep fighting, soldiering on to protect Chrom and Lissa.