seth Seth is Nuts...

[Interdimensional Observer]

On 6/27/2019 at 3:41 PM, lightcosmo said:

I've never had Seliph the greatest fighter, in fact in my first few runs, he ended up slower than Sigurd.

Without the right inheritance, then yes, Seliph is going to be worse than Sigurd at the start, and he'll just be like most lords. As for Speed, to be fair, Seliph has only a 35% Spd growth, Sigurd's was a near identical 30, it's totally possible for the son to be less than the father here. Thanks for the nonexistent growths Deidre. Sigurd's Spd was his lowest non-Magic/Res growth, but it was average by Gen 1 standards, whereas with a well bred 2nd Gen, Seliph will be comparatively slow. 

And I didn't say Seliph would be the strongest, Shannan, Ayra's kids, Forseti boy, and Ares to name just a handful can outdo Seliph at raw combat. I only said that Seliph is "good enough" when trained. Good enough for what is necessary to survive and kill most enemies, which as is usually the case in FE, is less than the highest possible stats for the moment.

And again, I'll stress that the favoritism that gets Seliph a Chapter 6 promotion is based on a belief in getting maps done quicker; not LTC or Ranked necessarily, I'm more a middle-of-the-road FE player and I liked getting Seliph promoted as fast I did. If you don't mind going slower, then Seliph can delay on promotion until like Chapter 10, when he and his extant Res stat become valuable.

 

9 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

That is to say even though Seth still turns out statistically worse than your non-prepromotes if they fully level

At 20/10:

Spoiler

Seth: HP 38.1 Str 18.5 Skl 17.05 Spd 16.05 Lck 15.25 Def 14.6 Res 10.7

 

Everyone else compared against Seth as 20/10 Paladins:

Franz: HP +6.3 Str +0.7 Skl +0.15 Spd +5.95 Lck -2.05 Def +0.4 Res -3.1

Forde: HP +7.45 Str -1.3 Skl +3.45 Spd +3.3 Lck -0.2 Def 0 Res -1.95

Kyle: HP +10.5 Str +3.5 Skl -0.45 Spd +1.55 Lck -4.65 Def +2.4 Res -3.9

Amelia: HP +2.1 Str -0.55 Skl +3.75 Spd +6.75 Lck +9.25 Def -0.5 Res +1.85

So it's mostly HP and Spd, which is basically durability. Since Seth normally already doubles all but of the fastest of enemies, which means mostly puny Mercs and Myrms, outside of the handful of Heroes and other promoted nasties in the Chapters 16-19. So what those Spd leads do most of the time is lower enemy hit rates.

Kyle has 12 Con, 1 more than Seth. Amelia has 9 Con, 2 below Seth. Franz and Forde have the same 11 Con as Seth.

 

At 20/20:

Spoiler

Seth: HP 47.1 Str 23.5 Skl 21.55 Spd 20.55 Lck 17.75 Def 18.6 Res 13.7

 

Everyone else compared against Seth as 20/20 Paladins:

Franz: HP +5.1 Str -0.3 Skl -0.35 Spd +3.45 (capped at 24) Lck -0.55 Def -1.1 Res -4.1

Forde: HP +6.95 Str -2.3 Skl +3.95 Spd +3.3 Lck +0.5 Def -2.0 Res -2.45

Kyle: HP +10.5 Str +2.5 (capped at 25) Skl -0.95 Spd +1.05 Lck -4.95 Def +0.9 Res -4.9

Amelia: HP -0.9 Str -2.05 Skl +3.25 Spd +4.45 (capped at 25) Lck +11.75 Def -1.5 Res +0.35

The leads actually shrink slightly in some places, that's the wrong direction!

[Lightcosmo]

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Without the right inheritance, then yes, Seliph is going to be worse than Sigurd at the start, and he'll just be like most lords. As for Speed, to be fair, Seliph has only a 35% Spd growth, Sigurd's was a near identical 30, it's totally possible for the son to be less than the father here. Thanks for the nonexistent growths Deidre. Sigurd's Spd was his lowest non-Magic/Res growth, but it was average by Gen 1 standards, whereas with a well bred 2nd Gen, Seliph will be comparatively slow. 

And I didn't say Seliph would be the strongest, Shannan, Ayra's kids, Forseti boy, and Ares to name just a handful can outdo Seliph at raw combat. I only said that Seliph is "good enough" when trained. Good enough for what is necessary to survive and kill most enemies, which as is usually the case in FE, is less than the highest possible stats for the moment.

And again, I'll stress that the favoritism that gets Seliph a Chapter 6 promotion is based on a belief in getting maps done quicker; not LTC or Ranked necessarily, I'm more a middle-of-the-road FE player and I liked getting Seliph promoted as fast I did. If you don't mind going slower, then Seliph can delay on promotion until like Chapter 10, when he and his extant Res stat become valuable.

 

Oh, I understand that, I just thought it was strange he was always so slow, like I had him at 18 speed at level 30? that's pretty bad, really. Seliph is just not as dominant as Sigurd because you have other units that can participate more, I think. Or that's just me, maybe?

[Interdimensional Observer]

14 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Seliph is just not as dominant as Sigurd because you have other units that can participate more, I think. Or that's just me, maybe?

Most definitely true! Relatively speaking, with a well-bred and inherited 2nd Gen, Seliph faces more competition than I think Sigurd ever seriously did. There is what, Lex as the only true rival to Sigurd from the beginning to the end of Gen 1? And not even him really, since it takes 1.75 Chapters to get the Brave Axe.

Even without amazing variable kiddos, Oifaye, Shannan, Ares, and Finn provide four already trained and good rivals to Seliph, two with brokenly good weapons. And Leif when trained can outdo Seliph on raw stats alone while moving just as far (the only issue is status staffs in the final two chapters, Leif might be able to squeeze by them if you left Silvia dead/unwed though and then threw him a Barrier Ring on top of the Barrier Sword). 

 

Uhh.. at least Seth has more competition than Sigurd? Smaller maps, weaker enemies, everyone can naturally double, all things against Seth.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Flere210]

I don't really get the point of rushing a seliph promotion. Oifaye and Ares can do everything that seliph can do earlygame and lategame he would be promoted anyway. It just seems unnecessary.

[Lightcosmo]

13 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I don't really get the point of rushing a seliph promotion. Oifaye and Ares can do everything that seliph can do earlygame and lategame he would be promoted anyway. It just seems unnecessary.

Pretty much to clear/wreck the chapter as quickly as possible, I think? Since when promoted, Seliph is a combat monster. And since he's the lord, he needs to seize, which being promoted makes tons easier.

 

16 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Most definitely true! Relatively speaking, with a well-bred and inherited 2nd Gen, Seliph faces more competition than I think Sigurd ever seriously did. There is what, Lex as the only true rival to Sigurd from the beginning to the end of Gen 1? And not even him really, since it takes 1.75 Chapters to get the Brave Axe.

Even without amazing variable kiddos, Oifaye, Shannan, Ares, and Finn provide four already trained and good rivals to Seliph, two with brokenly good weapons. And Leif when trained can outdo Seliph on raw stats alone while moving just as far (the only issue is status staffs in the final two chapters, Leif might be able to squeeze by them if you left Silvia dead/unwed though and then threw him a Barrier Ring on top of the Barrier Sword). 

 

Uhh.. at least Seth has more competition than Sigurd? Smaller maps, weaker enemies, everyone can naturally double, all things against Seth.

Shanan is competition for Seliph?  I know Balmung is good, but is that enough?

[Troykv]

3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Most definitely true! Relatively speaking, with a well-bred and inherited 2nd Gen, Seliph faces more competition than I think Sigurd ever seriously did. There is what, Lex as the only true rival to Sigurd from the beginning to the end of Gen 1? And not even him really, since it takes 1.75 Chapters to get the Brave Axe.

Even without amazing variable kiddos, Oifaye, Shannan, Ares, and Finn provide four already trained and good rivals to Seliph, two with brokenly good weapons. And Leif when trained can outdo Seliph on raw stats alone while moving just as far (the only issue is status staffs in the final two chapters, Leif might be able to squeeze by them if you left Silvia dead/unwed though and then threw him a Barrier Ring on top of the Barrier Sword). 

 

Uhh.. at least Seth has more competition than Sigurd? Smaller maps, weaker enemies, everyone can naturally double, all things against Seth.

Quan has similar power to that of Sigurd actually (More Str/Def, less HP/Spd), but using Lances and lacking a reliable way to double attack hurts him.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Troykv

[eclipse]

While Jugdral and Magvel have some similarities (like an insanely good guy on a horse stomping things flat), this is a Seth topic.

[Lightcosmo]

7 hours ago, eclipse said:

While Jugdral and Magvel have some similarities (like an insanely good guy on a horse stomping things flat), this is a Seth topic.

Apologies about that, it's a bit harder to compare Seth to others when... they don't compare, so it's not as interesting to discuss, I suppose. But your right, so i'll direct the topic back to Seth. Is he really that good or is it just because the game is too easy, really. I mean, on normal mode, the enemies have like 1/2 the stats of FE7.

[eclipse]

5 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Apologies about that, it's a bit harder to compare Seth to others when... they don't compare, so it's not as interesting to discuss, I suppose. But your right, so i'll direct the topic back to Seth. Is he really that good or is it just because the game is too easy, really. I mean, on normal mode, the enemies have like 1/2 the stats of FE7.

It's a little bit of both!

First, compare the stats of the promoted enemies in FE8's Normal with their unpromoted counterparts.  Something went weird during the coding, hence why they're basically walking bags of experience.  Then, compare Seth's bases/growths with another good starting Paladin from FE7 - Marcus.  Marcus starts with slightly better bases but worse growths.  Combine that with the overly easy promoted enemies of FE8, and it means that Seth will have an easier time leveling, which in turn means he can invoke his growths more often.

[Lightcosmo]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

It's a little bit of both!

First, compare the stats of the promoted enemies in FE8's Normal with their unpromoted counterparts.  Something went weird during the coding, hence why they're basically walking bags of experience.  Then, compare Seth's bases/growths with another good starting Paladin from FE7 - Marcus.  Marcus starts with slightly better bases but worse growths.  Combine that with the overly easy promoted enemies of FE8, and it means that Seth will have an easier time leveling, which in turn means he can invoke his growths more often.

Well the enemy amount is much smaller in FE8 as well, so there's much less risk involved in rushing someone in solo. True that Seth is a suped up Marcus, though. The stat standard is a bit better overall in FE8 as well.

Edited June 29, 2019 by lightcosmo

[Shadow Mir]

On 6/28/2019 at 8:48 AM, Shoblongoo said:

He's a Jeigen that never drops off--not just because of his growths--but because the mid and late game enemies in FE8 scale so poorly.

That is to say even though Seth still turns out statistically worse than your non-prepromotes if they fully level--it doesn't really matter, because he still turns out good enough to stomp all over FE8's lategame enemies. The extra stats on units that you have to train up and promote are superfluous.
 
I've always said that if they do a FE8 remake, they have to add a [lunatic] difficult above easy/hard for a mode of play where the game actually pushes you with tough enemies. 

And I'd be curious to see how Seth would hold up there. In a mode of play where he might actually have a late game drop-off point, relative to enemy scaling.  

Yeah - on a somewhat different note, you know something's wrong when a base level Seth can actually put in work against endgame enemies. On hard mode.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Interdimensional Observer]

10 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Is he really that good or is it just because the game is too easy, really. I mean, on normal mode, the enemies have like 1/2 the stats of FE7.

On Hard Mode, let's look at the stats of some enemies in Chapter 15 Eirika version, since SF has those in these forums. That being the last chapter before promoted enemies become more common in the following handful of chapters.

Spoiler

• Lvl 13 Fighter: 34 HP, 13 Str, 7 Skl, 9 Spd, 3 Lck, 4 Def, 3 Res
  • Iron Axe: 21 Atk, 90 Hit, 21 Avoid, 3 Crit

Seth with base stats is just 1 Spd short of doubling. With a Steel Sword (no AS loss) and WTA, he has 23 Atk, for 19 a swing. Provided he got that one Spd proc, he ORKOs. He has a 38% (29% True) chance of getting hit for 9 damage to 30 HP with base stats.

 

• Lvl 14 Mercenaries: 30-31 HP, 10-11 Str, 15 Skl, 13 Spd, 5-6 Lck, 6-7 Def, 2-3 Res
  • Iron Blade: 19-20 Atk, 102-103 Hit, 25-26 Avoid, 7 Crit, 10 AS
• Lvl 13 Mercenaries: 29-31 HP, 9-10 Str, 14 Skl, 12-13 Spd, 4-5 Lck, 6-7 Def, 3 Res
  • Iron Sword: 14-15 Atk, 120 Hit, 28-31 Avoid, 7 Crit

Seth needs two Spd procs to double the Blade users. But with a Steel Lance, he has 25 Atk, which deals 18 damage a hit with 93 Hit, enough to 2RKO these sans terrain in the worst situation. He takes only 8 damage from the Blades, and 3 from the Swords.

 

• Lvl 13 Mages: 24 HP, 9-10 Mag, 7-8 Skl, 8-9 Spd, 2-3 Lck, 4 Def, 8 Res
  • Thunder: 17-18 Atk, 95-97 Hit, 18-21 Avoid, 8-9 Crit

The most menacing magic users around require one Spd proc at most to ORKO. Takes 9-10 without a Pure Water.

 

• Lvl 13 Wyvern Riders: 31-34 HP, 12-14 Str, 7-9 Skl, 7-10 Spd, 2-5 Lck, 10-15 Def, 2-3 Res
  • Steel Lance: 22-24 Atk, 85-90 Hit, 10-19 Avoid, 3-4 Crit, 4-7 AS
  • Javelin: 18-20 Atk, 80-85 Hit, 14-23 Avoid, 3-4 Crit, 6-9 AS

Seth is getting hit for 13 damage at most, a nasty 3HKO with negligible accuracy. With a Javelin, he doubles for 7-12x2 damage against these bulky foes. At worst, he 3RKOs, but he could 2RKO instead. If he didn't have to contend with Javelins and earned some Spd, he could grab a Steel Lance for guaranteed 2RKOs, possibly ORKO with best circumstances of 31/10 and two Str procs. 

 

This should suffice, Cavaliers and Knights being similar-ish to Wyvern Riders, although the Cavs are much more squishy in Def and open themselves up to ORKO with Steel. Archers, Monks, and Shamans are like Mages.

If we fielded a base level Seth in Chapter 19, what would we find? I choose Chapter 19, as it is the one where enemies are at their strongest actually due to monsters in the subsequent two battles being on the whole a little weaker with pathetic Wights, despite Gorgons and a few other nasties. 

Hard stats for prepromoted (unpromoted enemies also exist) foes in Chapter 19:

Spoiler

Lvl 5 Druids: 31 HP, 20-21 Mag, 11 Skl, 10-11 Spd, 4-6 Lck, 7-8 Def, 14-15 Res

• Luna: 20-21 Atk, 72-75 Hit, 16-20 Avoid, 15 Crit, 6-7 AS

Lvl 6 Druid: 33 HP, 21 Mag, 10 Skl, 10 Spd, 6 Lck, 7 Def, 18 Res

• Nosferatu: 31 Atk, 93 Hit, 14 Avoid, 5 Crit, 4 AS

Lvl 4 General: 41 HP, 16 Str, 10 Skl, 5 Spd, 3 Lck, 19 Def, 9 Res

• *Brave Lance: 26 Atk, 91 Hit, 13 Avoid, 5 Crit

Lvl 5 General: 40 HP, 16 Str, 10 Skl, 7 Spd, 6 Lck, 19 Def, 10 Res

• Steel Lance: 26 Atk, 93 Hit, 20 Avoid, 5 Crit

Lvl 5 Hero: 44 HP, 13 Str, 18 Skl, 14-15 Spd, 6-7 Lck, 14 Def, 6-7 Res

• Steel Blade: 24 Atk, 104 Hit, 28-31 Avoid, 7 Crit, 11-12 AS
• *Brave Sword: 22 Atk, 114 Hit, 32-35 Avoid, 9 Crit, 13-14 AS

Lvl 4 Swordmaster: 36 HP, 12 Str, 17 Skl, 17 Spd, 6 Lck, 9 Def, 9 Res

• Steel Sword: 20 Atk, 112 Hit, 38 Avoid, 23 Crit, 16 AS

Lvl 5 Warriors: 48-49 HP, 18-21 Str, 11-12 Skl, 11-13 Spd, 2-4 Lck, 9-10 Def, 3 Res

• Steel Axe: 29-32 At, 88-91 Ht, 20-26 Avoid, 5-6 Crt, 9-11 AS
• Steel Bow: 27-31 Atk, 90-93 Hit, 24-30 Avoid, 5-6 Crit
• Hand Axe: 25-28 Atk, 86-89 Hit, 24-30 Avoid, 5-6 Crit

 

SF doesn't have the stats of the Pallies, Snipers, Rangers, Great Knights, and Mage Knights strangely. But all of the above says enough I think.

Barring the Swordmaster, Seth avoids being doubled by anything and can't double anything either if he isn't losing AS. He gets consistently 2HKO or sometimes 3HKO.

With an Iron Lance, Seth has 22 Atk, which against a Hero to pick a random enemy, is 8 damage, or a 6HKO. A Warrior when armed with a Steel Sword, Seth has 23 Atk and 4HKOs. With the Silver Card obtained and Killer weapons now buyable, Seth could luck out and see the necessary number of hits shrink about a third of the time.

And that on a base level Seth, which shouldn't be the case if you've actually been training him as a combat unit.

 

4 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

The stat standard is a bit better overall in FE8 as well.

If by this you mean growth rates went up, I'm not so sure of that. Using the data I collected some time ago:

Spoiler

FE7 Growth Rate Totals (adding up all of a character's growths together, it gives an idea about how many stat points one should be expected to gain per level up)

• Eliwood: 325 Lyn: 335 Hector: 335
• Sain: 290 Kent: 290 Florina: 305
• Wil: 300 Dorcas: 285 Serra: 300
• Erk: 285 Rath: 285 Matthew: 310
• Wallace: 275 Lowen: 300 Rebecca: 305
• Marcus: 250 Bartre: 295 Oswin: 310
• Guy: 310 Merlinus: 445 Priscilla: 305
• Raven: 300 Lucius: 295 Canas: 285
• Dart: 285 Fiora: 315 Legault: 300
• Nils/Ninian: 345 Isadora: 280 Heath: 295
• Hawkeye: 240 Geitz: 285 Farina: 310
• Pent: 245 Louise: 260 Karel: 255
• Harken: 260 Nino: 330 Jaffar: 235
• Vaida: 240 Karla: 255 Renault: 240

 

• FE8 GRTs
• Erika: 350 Seth: 325 Franz: 295
• Gilliam: 305 Moulder: 270 Vanessa: 300
• Ross: 270 Garcia: 285 Neimi: 310
• Colm: 265 Artur: 290 Lute: 285
• Natasha: 305 Joshua: 295 Ephraim: 345
• Forde: 300 Kyle: 295 Tana: 320
• Amelia: 270 Innes: 290 Gerik: 295
• Tethys: 355 Marisa: 310 L’Arachel: 315
• Dozla: 295 Saleh: 250 Ewan: 275
• Cormag: 300 Rennac: 275 Duessel: 305
• Knoll: 270 Myrrh: 580 Syrene: 320

 

They look fairly similar to me. Unlike FE6 compared to FE7:

• Roy: 325 Marcus: 185 Allen: 290
• Lance: 285 Wolt: 280 Bors: 285
• Merlinus: 325 Ellen: 280 Dieck: 270
• Wade: 270 Lott: 260 Thany: 285
• Chad: 365 Lugh: 270 Clarine: 275
• Rutger: 290 Saul: 270 Dorothy: 290
• Sue: 280 Zealot: 200 Treck: 255
• Noah: 260 Astohl: 270 Lilina: 270
• Wendy: 290 Barth: 267 Oujay: 290
• Fir: 290 Shin: 270 Gonzales: 280
• Geese: 275 Klein: 270 Tate: 275
• Lalum: 285 Echidna: 210 Elphin: 300
• Bartre: 205 Raigh: 260 Cath: 335
• Miredy: 270 Perceval: 215 Cecilia: 235
• Sophia: 280 Igrene: 200 Garret: 200
• Fa: 600 Hugh: 240 Zeis: 275
• Douglas: 205 Niime: 110 Dayan: 150
• Juno: 200 Yodel: 125 Karel: 950

Here, I can see growths are significantly lower. 270 is average for an unpromoted unit in FE6, but bad in FE8. Roy's exceptional 325 total (which is misplaced when broken down stat by stat- which is partly why Roy is bad), is matched by Seth, who looks nothing like an FE6 prepromote not Karel growths-wise.

 

[Lightcosmo]

12 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

If by this you mean growth rates went up, I'm not so sure of that. Using the data I collected some time ago:

  Reveal hidden contents

FE7 Growth Rate Totals (adding up all of a character's growths together, it gives an idea about how many stat points one should be expected to gain per level up)

• Eliwood: 325 Lyn: 335 Hector: 335
• Sain: 290 Kent: 290 Florina: 305
• Wil: 300 Dorcas: 285 Serra: 300
• Erk: 285 Rath: 285 Matthew: 310
• Wallace: 275 Lowen: 300 Rebecca: 305
• Marcus: 250 Bartre: 295 Oswin: 310
• Guy: 310 Merlinus: 445 Priscilla: 305
• Raven: 300 Lucius: 295 Canas: 285
• Dart: 285 Fiora: 315 Legault: 300
• Nils/Ninian: 345 Isadora: 280 Heath: 295
• Hawkeye: 240 Geitz: 285 Farina: 310
• Pent: 245 Louise: 260 Karel: 255
• Harken: 260 Nino: 330 Jaffar: 235
• Vaida: 240 Karla: 255 Renault: 240

 

• FE8 GRTs
• Erika: 350 Seth: 325 Franz: 295
• Gilliam: 305 Moulder: 270 Vanessa: 300
• Ross: 270 Garcia: 285 Neimi: 310
• Colm: 265 Artur: 290 Lute: 285
• Natasha: 305 Joshua: 295 Ephraim: 345
• Forde: 300 Kyle: 295 Tana: 320
• Amelia: 270 Innes: 290 Gerik: 295
• Tethys: 355 Marisa: 310 L’Arachel: 315
• Dozla: 295 Saleh: 250 Ewan: 275
• Cormag: 300 Rennac: 275 Duessel: 305
• Knoll: 270 Myrrh: 580 Syrene: 320

 

They look fairly similar to me. Unlike FE6 compared to FE7:

• Roy: 325 Marcus: 185 Allen: 290
• Lance: 285 Wolt: 280 Bors: 285
• Merlinus: 325 Ellen: 280 Dieck: 270
• Wade: 270 Lott: 260 Thany: 285
• Chad: 365 Lugh: 270 Clarine: 275
• Rutger: 290 Saul: 270 Dorothy: 290
• Sue: 280 Zealot: 200 Treck: 255
• Noah: 260 Astohl: 270 Lilina: 270
• Wendy: 290 Barth: 267 Oujay: 290
• Fir: 290 Shin: 270 Gonzales: 280
• Geese: 275 Klein: 270 Tate: 275
• Lalum: 285 Echidna: 210 Elphin: 300
• Bartre: 205 Raigh: 260 Cath: 335
• Miredy: 270 Perceval: 215 Cecilia: 235
• Sophia: 280 Igrene: 200 Garret: 200
• Fa: 600 Hugh: 240 Zeis: 275
• Douglas: 205 Niime: 110 Dayan: 150
• Juno: 200 Yodel: 125 Karel: 950

Here, I can see growths are significantly lower. 270 is average for an unpromoted unit in FE6, but bad in FE8. Roy's exceptional 325 total (which is misplaced when broken down stat by stat- which is partly why Roy is bad), is matched by Seth, who looks nothing like an FE6 prepromote not Karel growths-wise.

 

Fe8's characters are a bit better base wise I think as well, also, that list makes me feel bad for Eliwood, barely enough to be as good as Seth, poor Eliwood.

[Mylady]

I thought the topic was about Seth's personality lol 

 

I always do Sethless run, and use him as a rescue boot