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1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

I find that hard to believe. Are you certain you didn't get hit by a Chill, Ploy, Chaos Named, dagger AoE, Smoke, or an enemy structure or trap? There are a lot of sources of debuffs in Aether Raids, and I find it very hard to believe that you didn't get hit by one of them.

Yep, quite certain. I would have noticed any stat debuffs since a red down pointing arrow icon appears when this happens. Traps don't debuff stats, they either deal damage or temporarily reduce movement. And Palla kills traps, they don't affect her. Plus, I hadn't activated any anyway.

Edited by Anacybele
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24 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yep, quite certain. I would have noticed any stat debuffs since a red down pointing arrow icon appears when this happens. Traps don't debuff stats, they either deal damage or temporarily reduce movement. And Palla kills traps, they don't affect her. Plus, I hadn't activated any anyway.

Sometimes I wish the game would record the offensive attempts so you could Analyse it better.I don't always have good attention in a battle. (Especially then I am in a bad mood). There are also the 2 new buildings which could be there, or one skill which is not checked or whatever and you did not recognize it.

A good example for me is what happened from an opponent who challenged me.. At first look it would be likely that his cursed Tiki would survive my Deirdre.
She had 53 speed with all buffs and my Deirdre had 39 speed on view.
But Deirdre had Darting blow seal and her tome effect. Which would make Tiki speed down to 46 again and my Deirdre has 45 speed, but there is more. Deirdres Tome enhanced her speed by 3 and I had setup the Bright shrine which decreased Tikis stats by 3. 
Which made Tikis Speed go down to 43 and Deirdres Speed was 48 on attack. Just barely enough to double her.

The point is, even with my own record I had to look a bit to calculate what happened there and got me the win. It is totally fine AR is a mode which gets on your nerve sometimes and it just happens that there is something overseen. It makes one salty but it happens and is no bad thing. 

And depending on battleskip options the timing you see your own debuff active can be so small. 
 

Edited by Stroud
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22 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yep, quite certain. I would have noticed any stat debuffs since a red down pointing arrow icon appears when this happens. Traps don't debuff stats, they either deal damage or temporarily reduce movement. And Palla kills traps, they don't affect her. Plus, I hadn't activated any anyway.

Status effects count as debuffs. Start-of-turn debuffs also activate at the beginning of enemy phase, meaning it's entirely possible to not realize you were debuffed.

Treats are area-of-effect effects, meaning it's possible to be hit by the area effect from someone else stepping on the trap.

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2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Status effects count as debuffs. Start-of-turn debuffs also activate at the beginning of enemy phase, meaning it's entirely possible to not realize you were debuffed.

Treats are area-of-effect effects, meaning it's possible to be hit by the area effect from someone else stepping on the trap.

...Why would status effects count as debuffs when, you know, they're status effects, not debuffs? That doesn't make any sense.

6 minutes ago, Stroud said:

Sometimes I wish the game would record the offensive attempts so you could Analyse it better.I don't always have good attention in a battle. (Especially then I am in a bad mood). There are also the 2 new buildings which could be there, or one skill which is not checked or whatever and you did not recognize it.

A good example for me is what happened from an opponent who challenged me.. At first look it would be likely that his cursed Tiki would survive my Deirdre.
She had 53 speed with all buffs and my Deirdre had 39 speed on view.
But Deirdre had Darting blow seal and her tome effect. Which would make Tiki speed down to 46 again and my Deirdre has 45 speed, but there is more. Deirdres Tome enhanced her speed by 3 and I had setup the Bright shrine which decreased Tikis stats by 3. 
Which made Tikis Speed go down to 43 and Deirdres Speed was 48 on attack. Just barely enough to double her.

The point is, even with my own record I had to look a bit to calculate what happened there and got me the win. It is totally fine AR is a mode which gets on your nerve sometimes and it just happens that there is something overseen. It makes one salty but it happens and is no bad thing. 

And depending on battleskip options the timing you see your own debuff active can be so small. 
 

Being able to review a loss and see why you lost doesn't sound like a bad idea, yeah. I can get behind that.

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38 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yep, quite certain. I would have noticed any stat debuffs since a red down pointing arrow icon appears when this happens. Traps don't debuff stats, they either deal damage or temporarily reduce movement. And Palla kills traps, they don't affect her. Plus, I hadn't activated any anyway.

I would like to note that the following count as debuffs even if none of your stats are affected by it:
- Panic
- Movement reduction
- Trilemma Triangle adept status
- Non counter
- no Assist (from bride Fjorm)

etc. Those count as debuffs too, because they also let Hrid double.

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1 minute ago, Hilda said:

I would like to note that the following count as debuffs even if none of your stats are affected by it:
- Panic
- Movement reduction
- Trilemma Triangle adept status
- Non counter
- no Assist (from bride Fjorm)

etc. Those count as debuffs too, because they also let Hrid double.

Makes zero sense. I don't understand this when they're not really debuffs.

But man, first there's no sixth unit allowed on offensive teams, and now this. There's just bad game design all over, isn't there?

Edited by Anacybele
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1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

Makes zero sense. I don't understand this when they're not really debuffs.

But man, first there's no sixth unit allowed on offensive teams, and now this. There's just bad game design all over, isn't there?

This isnt bad game design. They are DEBUFFS. just not stat debuffs, hence they allow Hrid or in your case Yune to double! This is also the reason why my Hrid runs with Wrys-Trilemma and Cancel Affinity.

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4 minutes ago, Hilda said:

This isnt bad game design. They are DEBUFFS. just not stat debuffs, hence they allow Hrid or in your case Yune to double! This is also the reason why my Hrid runs with Wrys-Trilemma and Cancel Affinity.

They are not debuffs. Stat debuffs are the only real debuffs. A unit's stats don't change when triangle advantage changes or movement changes. They can still attack and defend with the same strength as before. That does not sound at all like a debuff. They should be referred to as status changes, not debuffs. If they want a weapon or skill to affect both debuffs and status changes, then by all means. Just make that clear.

So this is bad game design.

Edited by Anacybele
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1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

They are not debuffs. Stat debuffs are the only real debuffs. A unit's stats don't change when triangle advantage changes or movement changes. They can still attack and defend with the same strength as before. That does not sound at all like a debuff.

So this is bad game design.

No this is a case of: you didnt know of it and didnt check on it. So now you know that they count as debuffs too.

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Regarding Yune’s Weapon, Chaos Named, the English text is:

”Grants Res+3. If a penalty inflicted by a skill like Panic or Threaten and/or a negative status effect (preventing counterattacks or restricting movement) is active on foe, grants Atk+6 during combat and unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack.”

I wouldn’t call stuff like Panic a debuff, but rather a status effect. I think it does a good job of specifying that both actual debuffs AND negative status effects satisfy the Atk boost & follow up condition.

Edit: Panic, specifically, is actually classified by the text as a penalty, with status effects being something different. My mistake. Regardless, the intent is clear: negative effects on the unit satisfy the condition.

Edited by LordFrigid
Didn’t interpret weapon text properly
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Just now, Hilda said:

No this is a case of: you didnt know of it and didnt check on it. So now you know that they count as debuffs too.

No, you're completely missing the point. All I'm saying is that only stat debuffs should actually be called debuffs, everything else should be referred to as status changes. This way certain weapon and skill descriptions would be clearer.

1 minute ago, LordFrigid said:

Regarding Yune’s Weapon, Chaos Named, the English text is:

”Grants Res+3. If a penalty inflicted by a skill like Panic or Threaten and/or a negative status effect (preventing counterattacks or restricting movement) is active on foe, grants Atk+6 during combat and unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack.”

I wouldn’t call stuff like Panic a debuff, but rather a status effect. I think it does a good job of specifying that both actual debuffs AND negative status effects satisfy the Atk boost & follow up condition.

...Huh, so this is indeed true. Status effect is clear enough to me. I had looked at her weapon description before, but I must not have remembered those exact words being there. A reasonable mistake to make, nobody is going to remember every weapon and skill description word for word.

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Just now, Anacybele said:

A reasonable mistake to make, nobody is going to remember every weapon and skill description word for word.

Claiming "bad game design" and then backpedaling to "well, it's a reasonable mistake because I can't read" is pretty pathetic, to be honest.

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3 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Claiming "bad game design" and then backpedaling to "well, it's a reasonable mistake because I can't read" is pretty pathetic, to be honest.

Was this really necessary? I admitted to making a mistake, something people used to tell me I wasn't very good at doing, and when I actually do it,  you call me pathetic? THAT is pathetic and rude.

Also, not remembering TWO damn words from a description doesn't mean I can't fucking read. Again, rude. Like I said, do you honestly expect me to memorize every skill and weapon description word for word in this game?

Edited by Anacybele
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Just now, Anacybele said:

Was this really necessary? I admitted to making a mistake, something people used to tell me I wasn't very good at doing, and when I actually do it,  you call me pathetic? THAT is pathetic and rude.

Ana, don't you ever get tired of this same old song and dance? 

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On topic again. Do any of you fine folks have a good counter to L!Alm? Maybe I'm just too lazy to number crunch but he rofl stomps my 'super' tank and I don't really know how to deal with him besides praying I'm not in range of his attack and hope to kill him on player phase (not easy with dancer shenanigans).  TA Gronraven user?

Just now, Anacybele said:

Was this really necessary? I admitted to making a mistake, something people used to tell me I wasn't very good at doing, and when I actually do it,  you call me pathetic? THAT is pathetic and rude.

Because you excused yourself of the mistake by calling it reasonable. It's not the first time you've blamed the game for your own faults.

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2 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

On topic again. Do any of you fine folks have a good counter to L!Alm? Maybe I'm just too lazy to number crunch but he rofl stomps my 'super' tank and I don't really know how to deal with him besides praying I'm not in range of his attack and hope to kill him on player phase (not easy with dancer shenanigans).  TA Gronraven user?

dont enemy phase LAlm, Player phase him. Most supertanks dont survive him or even kill him in their first counter.

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6 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Most supertanks dont survive him or even kill him in their first counter.

Sharena during her bonus week should have no problem tanking him as long as she got 2 M!Corrins giving her all Stat +12.

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31 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Claiming "bad game design" and then backpedaling to "well, it's a reasonable mistake because I can't read" is pretty pathetic, to be honest.

28 minutes ago, Thane said:

Ana, don't you ever get tired of this same old song and dance? 

This is really childish behavior, shame on your both. Nobody is looking for this kind of shit-stirring, knock it off.

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22 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Because you excused yourself of the mistake by calling it reasonable. It's not the first time you've blamed the game for your own faults.

So a mistake can't ever be reasonable/understandable. Okay, sure.

Edited by Anacybele
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33 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

On topic again. Do any of you fine folks have a good counter to L!Alm? Maybe I'm just too lazy to number crunch but he rofl stomps my 'super' tank and I don't really know how to deal with him besides praying I'm not in range of his attack and hope to kill him on player phase (not easy with dancer shenanigans).  TA Gronraven user?

If you ever tried armor units, they can do special fighter combined with a slaying weapon and bonfire/iceberg to one shot counter.

Infantry with a DC weapon and steady/warding breath+wrath + moonbow/glimmer might work too, but it'd be much closer to failing.

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36 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

On topic again. Do any of you fine folks have a good counter to L!Alm? Maybe I'm just too lazy to number crunch but he rofl stomps my 'super' tank and I don't really know how to deal with him besides praying I'm not in range of his attack and hope to kill him on player phase (not easy with dancer shenanigans).  TA Gronraven user?

Player phase him with a magical nuke (read: Reinhardt) or a Galeforce unit. Brave weapons are also workable but his Defense stat is pretty high.

A tanking strategy is too risky and will often result in losing a unit. Especially if Alm is in a Rally trap where his debuffs get cleared and he gets Gray Waves + Prayer Wheel.

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5 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Player phase him with a magical nuke (read: Reinhardt) or a Galeforce unit. Brave weapons are also workable but his Defense stat is pretty high.

A tanking strategy is too risky and will often result in losing a unit. Especially if Alm is in a Rally trap where his debuffs get cleared and he gets Gray Waves + Prayer Wheel.

39 minutes ago, Hilda said:

dont enemy phase LAlm, Player phase him. Most supertanks dont survive him or even kill him in their first counter.

Figures. I'm still salty about that bow. Caineghis, a unit designed to counter ranged units, shouldn't be hard countered by Alm. It's not right! Bridelia will have to be my savior like she is for 70% of PVE content.

8 minutes ago, Azuni said:

If you ever tried armor units, they can do special fighter combined with a slaying weapon and bonfire/iceberg to one shot counter.

Infantry with a DC weapon and steady/warding breath+wrath + moonbow/glimmer might work too, but it'd be much closer to failing.

Huh, interesting idea. A shame I don't have Special Fighter fodder. I suppose Winter Celica and/or Halloween Jakob could pull off that build but then I'm not sure if they'll survive Ophelia who is also a terror.

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1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

...Why would status effects count as debuffs when, you know, they're status effects, not debuffs? That doesn't make any sense.

The word "debuff" normally refers to an adverse status effect of any kind. In Heroes, there are two different types of debuffs: "penalties", which are decreases to individual stats, and "negative status effects", which are things like Panic and Gravity. Both "penalty" and "negative status effect" are official terminology, whereas "debuff" is not officially used.

I think you're confusing "debuff" and "penalty" with each other.

 

24 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

On topic again. Do any of you fine folks have a good counter to L!Alm? Maybe I'm just too lazy to number crunch but he rofl stomps my 'super' tank and I don't really know how to deal with him besides praying I'm not in range of his attack and hope to kill him on player phase (not easy with dancer shenanigans).  TA Gronraven user?

Fjorm can tank him with Ice Mirror, but guaranteeing killing him on the first counterattack requires a lot of Atk buffs and Atk-boosting skills.

Seliph can also tank him with refined Tyrfing and kill on the counterattack if you have enough Pulse on him to activate a hard-hitting Special (even Reprisal works because Seliph will be at 1 HP) and have some Atk buffs.

Triangle Adept + Litrraven works on pretty much anyone that isn't made of paper as long as you have enough Atk to kill him in one hit on the counterattack.

All of these leave you rather vulnerable to everything else on the map, though.

 

You can also run Vantage Laevatein, which is a bit safer if he doesn't have Hardy Bearing (and you got rid of everything else that has Hardy Bearing).

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@Anacybele

In all honesty, I miss when descriptions were simple and easy to memorize. I think they are trying to increase complexity through skills rather than map size (probably because this makes it easier to sell new units), but I'd much prefer a game with larger maps and simpler skills.

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