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Treatment of Female Lords in their games (save Eirika)


DefyingFates
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This has been rattling around inside my head ever since I played FE15 and keeps coming back to haunt me randomly so I figured I could get my thoughts into the open and see what happens. Also, apologies if this comes across as some hyper-feminist rant. That isn't my intention (though this does bug me).

So...yeah. Out of 15 mainline entries (or 12, discounting remakes), only four of them have a female Lord and even then they always share the spotlight with a guy (I'm not counting Avatars for obvious reasons). Not only is this a paltry amount, three of them don't even matter by the time the credits roll and the "justification" for that can get pretty egregious. I'm going to talk about said Lords (Lyn, Micaiah, Celica and Eirika), so be wary of spoilers for their games (and Fates: Revelation). I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but whatever your opinion I'd love to hear what you have to say.

Lyn: All of these characters are popular to some extent but Lyn is easily the biggest deal of the bunch as the first Lord the West was exposed to. While I like her and her story as much as the next person, my problem is that her story has absolutely zero impact on the rest of the game. At no point does the prologue come up during the "real" story and Lyn herself is reduced to just being another face in the crowd once she reappears. She has no impact on the plot or personal investment in it beyond "I want to help my friends." Heck, even Matthew has more to get out of being with the heroes! I understand that she was only created because the first Western game needed a tutorial arc (hence her existence raising so many questions about FE6), but my issue is that - for a Lord - she does nothing. Even Hector, the other "sidekick Lord," gets his own mode where not only does he have his own story arc, he also gains more insight into the plot than Eliwood does (namely everything to do with 19xx). Again, I get that she's popular, but she's supposed to be one of "the big three" for the game but is just there for the part of the story that actually matters (which is the bulk of it).

Micaiah: Micaiah already suffers from Radiant Dawn's scope, such as the blood pact forcing her into an antagonistic role and her being possessed by Yune for the entirety of Act 4 - the latter of which I'm kinda indifferent to since she still gets to interact with others - but Ike just steals all her glory. Don't get me wrong: I like Ike. He had a great arc in FE9 and I would have been happy to see him here if he had stayed in a supporting role to everyone else*. Instead he becomes the star of yet another game despite not getting any of the development or growth he did in FE9, even taking the lead during the climax of the game despite the final two bosses having much closer ties to Micaiah than him. Think about it: the penultimate boss is Micaiah's ancestor and the source of her strange powers while the final boss is the other half of the spirit that has accompanied her her whole life! Yet not only does Ike get the dramatic final hit on said final boss, he's the one who takes all the credit and goes down in history for saving the country (both in-universe and out) and - worst of all - gets to deliver the poetic monologue to Yune despite her not knowing who he is while knowing Micaiah intimately (again, throughout her entire life)! You can't even use the excuse that Micaiah was possessed at that point, since Yune had left her body at the time!

*I'm not just mad about him usurping Micaiah: I'm also upset that he hijacks Elincia and the Laguz's development time as well. If he'd just had the first few Chapters of Act 3 and the fight with the Black Knight in Act 4 I'd have been happy. Instead we got...well, all the above.

Celica: Radiant Dawn's situation frustrates me, but this is the one that really gets on my nerves. Celica was really promising to me, since she and Alm have almost the same amount of focus for the majority of the game and I actually preferred her story and party to his "charismatic warrior leader nobody" plot. The problem comes in Act 4, where she takes herself out of the story just so she can be Alm's damsel in distress for Act 5 (and of course ensure that he's the one who gets all the glory and goes down in history). Celica's stupidity is such that there's even a fan theory attempting to justify it (though I don't know how widespread this "witch theory" is), but she spends the entirety of Act 4 believing a man who's obviously evil and has spent the entire game sending monsters and henchman out to kill her. Not only this, but she already went to a "surrender to me and I'll spare Mila and your friends" meeting in the swamp where Jedah immediately tried to kill her, yet accepts the exact same offer just a few maps later! And not only this, but she's constantly lying to and hiding things from her friends and family, who are literally the only reason she is where she is today, to do so! Apparently this decision makes a bit more sense if you play Alm's path first but I can't bring myself to play this Act again to verify that. But even Alm being in trouble doesn't excuse the massive leaps in logic she takes here.

As I said before, this is the only example of the bunch that really makes me angry and is the reason I hate Celica (but if you like her, I'm happy for you, don't get me wrong).

I guess it's worth a quick shout-out to the pseudo-Lords, Lucina and Azura before we move onto the end: Lucina was never meant to be in focus since the story was always about Robin and Chrom, so I'm fine with how she was handled. Not so much for Azura, since how useful she is depends solely on how much money you spent on her game and even then all she does in Revelation is get you in and out of Valla.

Anyway, now for the finale:

Eirika: Looking at my profile will tell you I'm a big fan of hers, and this is one of the reasons why. Eirika is the first Lord you play as and the tutorial character, but unlike Lyn, stays relevant throughout the game and even gets top billing - i.e. being the POV character in cutscenes and the twin on the overworld map - throughout Acts 2 and 3 if you choose to follow her during the route split. And even if you chose Ephraim, Eirika still maintains a presence and is just as key to saving the day as he is (and vice versa for Ephraim).

Like Celica, Eirika also has a moment people like to bring up (though not nearly as much as with Celica from what I've seen, though that may just be me) - but unlike Celica, Eirika's decision is actually justifiable without bending over backwards to do so.

The moment is when Formortiss tricks Eirika into giving him Renais' Sacred Stone by pretending to be Lyon. It's a bad move on her part, but it makes sense from her perspective. Keep in mind that she's only been warned by Ephraim that Lyon has been possessed and L'arachel only told her that no one has resisted Formortiss yet (save Latona himself). However, at this point Eirika has already spoken to Lyon who has not only been of sound mind, but has also apologised and warned her of the dangers to come. So when he admits that he's been possessed but says he can break free with help...she's already seen him act normally so of course she believes him.

She doesn't blindly give it over either: she acknowledges the risk of handing over their only hope (at the time) of defeating the Demon King and actually learns more from its destruction than Ephraim does in his version of events: Eirika realises Lyon cannot be saved and must be put out of his misery and takes this resolution with her through the rest of the game, whereas Ephraim does the opposite, becoming unable to do what needs to be done until the point is hammered in some more.

Thanks for your time and again, I hope to hear what you think. A small part of me was excited to hear Edelgard be the the focus of the Three Houses trailer, but with how fem!Lords have been treated thus far, I'm convinced she's just going to be the next Lyn or Celica: relevant for a while maybe, but ultimately irrelevant in the face of the other two Lords.

But hey, hopefully I'm wrong and we get another FE8 instead, with all three sharing the spotlight throughout!

Edited by DefyingFates
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From what I can tell Edelgard might be the main focus of the story so to speak, kinda like how Eliwood was the leader of the Elibe Trio, so that could be interesting. Also it's about time we got another axe Lord, haven't had one since Hector.

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20 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

unlike Celica, Eirika's decision is actually justifiable without bending over backwards to do so.

I disagree here - L'arachel told her beforehand (by which I mean at the beginning of the same chapter this happens) that once someone was possessed by the Demon King, they couldn't be saved. That alone is more than enough to to nullify any justification you could think of imo.

20 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

stays relevant throughout the game and even gets top billing throughout Acts 2 and 3 if you choose to follow her during the route split.

Because "top billing" means getting a filler arc with nothing of note whatsoever happening for most of it and making the single most moronic move ever, right? I'm sorry, but saying Eirika gets "top billing" really bothers me.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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33 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Lucina was never meant to be in focus since the story was always about Robin and Chrom

I disagree with this, Robin was just an attention hog near end of the story, it was never about him in any capacity. It's all about Chrom and Lucina.

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16 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'm sorry, but saying Eirika gets "top billing" really bothers me

I just mean that she's the character you see on the map and usually the POV character in cutscenes.

 

17 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

L'arachel told her beforehand (by which I mean at the beginning of the same chapter this happens) that once someone was possessed by the Demon King, they couldn't be saved.

I know, I mentioned that too. My point is that Eirika's already seen Lyon acting normally with her own eyes, but I suppose this is something we'll just agree to disagree on.

 

21 minutes ago, Ninjato said:

From what I can tell Edelgard might be the main focus of the story so to speak, kinda like how Eliwood was the leader of the Elibe Trio, so that could be interesting.

I sure hope so! But we haven't heard anything from the others. For all we know, defying the Church of Seiros could be Dimitri/ Claude's idea and Edelgard just agrees with him/ them.

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On Lyn: While I do agree in a sense, I think you're being a little unfair. Yeah, when you think about it, she doesn't have any impact on the plot, but I wouldn't say that makes her irrelevant. She's there and her presence does matter at times. Sure, I would have liked to see more from her, but she wouldn't be so beloved if we didn't even have what we got.

On Micaiah: Nothing to say here actually, I agree completely.

On Celica: I must need to re-read the story of this game. When the moment happened, I recall thinking it was naive, but made sense from her perspective. I also rather dislike Alm, though, which may be putting more of my bias in Celica's favor.

I do think you should give Lucina more credit. She may not be coded as what we understand to be a "lord," but she even has the class, and for good reason. She's basically the one who sets the entire plot in motion. Without her, a lot of things would have gone down differently.

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At the end of the day, it boils down to perspective. Here's my thoughts on the matter.

Lyn - First you have to remember that Lyn's (FE7) game is a prequel to Roy's game (FE6) where Hector and Eliwood were both present. They weren't playable in the main campaign but they were parts of the story as Eliwood is the Marquess of Pherae and Roy's father while Hector was the leader of the Lycian army. A prequel of FE6 revolved around Lycia already had the groundwork laid out for those 2 to be characters in that game. Lyn is basically non-existent in FE6's story and one could argue that her creation was an afterthought and giving her too much relevance, specially with the role she was given in FE7 doesn't really add up when looking back at FE6. 

Micaiah - Yeah, not much to really disagree with there. Ike does take over the spotlight and becomes more relevant than Micaiah as the game goes on.

Celica - I'm not going to argue this one too much because it's been the subject of the debate enough as is. To keep it short, yes, her decisions in act 4 are incredibly stupid to us, the players but the notion that it comes out of nowhere strikes me as misguided and founded on the mindset that "well Jedah is clearly the evil guy so there's absolutely no way someone would strike a deal with him because we'll obviously think he's a liar". Uh, Hi, the United States has a crook for a President who didn't hide his racism. Wrong decisions ARE possible and Celica's decisions, as stupid and frustrating as they are to watch from the player perspective, are in line with the her character flaw that she is too selfless to the point where she puts others above her too much. The fact that she isn't selfish and is willing to put aside what she wants to make the situation better for others is literally established in the prologue when the decision is made for her to go to Novis to hide from Slayde and Desaix. That's her biggest character flaw: she's too selfless to the point where she doesn't want others to worry so she keeps her thoughts and burden to herself and can be manipulated to hastily take a fake solution if it looks like it will save her love from certain doom instead of stopping to think about things critically. As for her relevance in the story, barring the fact that only Alm can end Duma, I think she's just as relevant as Alm in the story if not more so.

Eirika - Yeah, compared to the others she does remain more relevant and basically had more growth and development to show than her brother although part of it is because Eirika starts out (and arguably still is at the end of the story), a character more bland than the others (possibly barring Celica).

Lucina - I agree with Florete on this one but eh, fuck Robin.

 

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1 hour ago, DefyingFates said:

But hey, hopefully I'm wrong and we get another FE8 instead, with all three sharing the spotlight throughout!

How about no, because FE8 was the same game that gave us a hodgepodge of villains that they couldn't write well and had a bunch of filler nonsense? I mean, sure, I'd like all three of the protagonists to be well implemented, but I'm not optimistic because every game with multiple protagonists winds up with one of them getting the short straw, and bringing up FE8, which arguably set more bad examples than any other FE game with regards to writing, isn't helping that.

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41 minutes ago, Florete said:

I do think you should give Lucina more credit. She may not be coded as what we understand to be a "lord," but she even has the class, and for good reason. She's basically the one who sets the entire plot in motion. Without her, a lot of things would have gone down differently.

 

27 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Lucina - I agree with Florete on this one but eh, fuck Robin.

Huh. This is a valid point that I never considered and, since I really like Lucina too, thanks!

P.S. I actually like Robin, but that's just how opinions work I suppose :P

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1 hour ago, Florete said:

I do think you should give Lucina more credit. She may not be coded as what we understand to be a "lord," but she even has the class, and for good reason. She's basically the one who sets the entire plot in motion. Without her, a lot of things would have gone down differently.

Huh? She is basically just tagging along.

 

Also, I really don't put much hope in Edelgard. I mean, the entire trailer was her obsessing over "teacher". My money is on her just going to be another poor thing for the player to feel sorry for and wanting to bone, like Katarina or Lucina.

Edited by BrightBow
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Lyn: She doesn't effect the plot in any way but I wouldn't say she's useless either. Lyn has her moments and feels like a natural part of the gba trio(and she should) because of her interactions with the other two lords. However, she is supposed to be a lord but she's not treated like one past the prologue. You could easily remove Lyn and the prologue from the game and nothing would change. That's incredibly weak for a lead. 

Micky: agree 100%

Celica: I also feel like Celica was mishandled as a female lord but not because of her infamous decision(I feel like it made sense for her). Celica's ideals of pacifism and peace are supposed to be a part of the main theme but it's never executed well and she doesn't have the impact that Alm does. In the end, Alm stopped the war/Duma and saved Valentia. Alm does tell he us he would be lost without Celica but this is never shown instead he's a understanding person and he's not afraid to take action when it's needed. <- Alm already strikes a balance between the two countries ideals without Celica. 

Lucina + Azura: Lucina was handled rather well even though she's not the lord. She's integral the plot but this isn't her journey, instead she supports Chrom and understand that she'll never have her true future back. I do agree that Azura is just terrible and that's because she never effects the plot as a character but rather as a plot device. 

Eirika: I agree with you for the most part and it's easy to understand why Eirika made the choice that she did. I just wish the writers did a better job of conveying Eirika's thoughts when she believed Lyon because it can be taken as her being stupid.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I disagree here - L'arachel told her beforehand (by which I mean at the beginning of the same chapter this happens) that once someone was possessed by the Demon King, they couldn't be saved. That alone is more than enough to to nullify any justification you could think of imo.

"Our oldest legends tell us just this?Only one person has ever been able to shake off the Demon King’s domination. Rausten’s founder, Saint Latona the sure-hearted, shattered his fetters. If one possesses a strength of will beyond that of normal men?Only then can one throw off the shackles of the Demon King" This gave Eirika the hope that she could save Lyon because she had absolute faith in her friend's kind nature. Lyon does show remnants of his personality(as the player we know this is a ruse) to Eirika and this only fuels that he's still in there.

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The female lords do kinda get the short end of the stick. Yet they are all pretty well liked. Even Michy who used to be pretty controversial back in the day has her fans after Corrin showed everyone how well handled she was in comparison. 

I'm really curious how edgelord is going to affect the FE treatment for its female heroes. So far she seems to be the most important of the three lords so maybe she'll be the one who's the most impressive and who's always in the right. That she uses an axe might already be a hint that she'll subvert the expectation of the females being weaker fighters than their male peers. 

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16 minutes ago, ChickenBits said:

"Our oldest legends tell us just this?Only one person has ever been able to shake off the Demon King’s domination. Rausten’s founder, Saint Latona the sure-hearted, shattered his fetters. If one possesses a strength of will beyond that of normal men?Only then can one throw off the shackles of the Demon King" This gave Eirika the hope that she could save Lyon because she had absolute faith in her friend's kind nature. Lyon does show remnants of his personality(as the player we know this is a ruse) to Eirika and this only fuels that he's still in there.

Notable that this isn't mentioned in at all Ephraim's route. Which emphases that the purpose of those lines really was to give Eirika the hope that Lyon could somehow be saved.

Edited by BrightBow
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2 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

That's her biggest character flaw: she's too selfless to the point where she doesn't want others to worry so she keeps her thoughts and burden to herself and can be manipulated to hastily take a fake solution if it looks like it will save her love from certain doom instead of stopping to think about things critically. As for her relevance in the story, barring the fact that only Alm can end Duma, I think she's just as relevant as Alm in the story if not more so.

To add to this: The original Gaiden potrays her decison in a more reasonable way.
Unlike Echoes you did not have a choice regarding the scenario at Dragon's Maw. You will get stuck there and have to fight endless waves of Necro Dragons. Here Jedah strikes a deal with Celica to spare Alm in exchange for her life as a sacrifice.

In the end it's the same result of course. She willingy gives up herself to a man who is clearly not trustworthy for the sake of Alm. There was no guarantee he would keep his part of the deal. But imo it's better presented in Gaiden because there is a sense of urgency behind it where as the current Echoes scenario really comes off as she is acting on an empty threat.

3 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

And even if you chose Ephraim, Eirika still maintains a presence and is just as key to saving the day as he is (and vice versa for Ephraim).

Well if we're talking about the way, the game presents it, then yes.
But ultimately if you think about it, Eirika's role really didn't matter in the long run. Jehanna is still in ruins, its sacred stone got destroyed and in the end she had to be saved by Ephraim yet again. Her only contribution is pretty much saving Innes and being an envoy going to Rausten is an afterthought as well.
Her brother on the other hand brought at least a political end to the war by capturing Grado's capital and "slaying Vigarde". Without his side of the story you wouldn't even know what actually sparked the war in the first place and what Lyon's goal is.

Edited by The Priest
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22 minutes ago, The Priest said:

In the end it's the same result of course. She willingy gives up herself to a man who is clearly not trustworthy for the sake of Alm. There was no guarantee he would keep his part of the deal. But imo it's better presented in Gaiden because there is a sense of urgency behind it where as the current Echoes scenario really comes off as she is acting on an empty threat.

I'm not so sure about that. I mean, in the original game there is room for interpretation since Celica doesn't actually respond to his offer. Her following him could simply mean she intended to take him out.

 

But she is not Alm's equal in the original game either. Not only did she not accomplish anything, her dialogue in the final dungeon spells it out that she went out on this journey for all the wrong reasons. Rather then them being two sides of the same coins it seems like she had been intended to embody the flaws of Mila's teachings while Alm as someone born in Rigel and growing up in Sofia is the balanced one.

Of course her realizing her mistake could still be seen as character growth. But in Echoes take I can't even begin to fathom what they were going for with her. Like, Alm's side of the story doesn't work either but it's at least easy to understand what they were trying to do.

Edited by BrightBow
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Honestly, I think one of the main issues with the female lords is that IS just seems really inept at writing for more than one lord at a time, and more often than not it is the female lord who suffers in that case. I'd like to see a solo female lord to see if IS can actually write a female lord if she stands on her own, or if they have an issue writing female leads in general.

Considering that we've had Marth, Roy, and PoR Ike, who had the spotlight to themselves in their game, it's pretty egregious that we haven't had one stand-alone lord who is a girl.

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20 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Considering that we've had Marth, Roy, and PoR Ike, who had the spotlight to themselves in their game, it's pretty egregious that we haven't had one stand-alone lord who is a girl.

I think the reason behind that is the nature of the protagonist makes it easier to connect with the player... and the usual player of this kind kind of stuff is likely into power fantasy stuff or whatever... so... the male character being always the center point makes sense.

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10 minutes ago, Troykv said:

I think the reason behind that is the nature of the protagonist makes it easier to connect with the player... and the usual player of this kind kind of stuff is likely into power fantasy stuff or whatever... so... the male character being always the center point makes sense.

Based on the amount of shitty "strong female characters" OCs I've seen in fanfiction over the years, "power fantasy" is definitely not limited to just male players, though. Plus, you'd think that in the span of 15 games they'd have at least one solo female lord. Apparently not.

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4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I disagree here - L'arachel told her beforehand (by which I mean at the beginning of the same chapter this happens) that once someone was possessed by the Demon King, they couldn't be saved. That alone is more than enough to to nullify any justification you could think of imo.

By that same logic of another character telling the protagonist there is point of trusting the villain is the reason why there's no justification for what the hero eventually does, then Celica to you should be at Eirika's level.

Just like Eirika, Celica also had a moment later into SoV's story where a character (specifically her half-brother Conrad) also tells her why she shouldn't sacrifice herself as part of the irredeemably evil Jedah and the Duma Faithful's plan, only the way he does it is far more dramatic than what L'arachel did to Eirika. I've linked and timestamped that scene I'm talking about between Celica and Conrad below (the scene ends at 24:36).

And Celica still decided to trust Jedah and got duped by him in the end despite what Conrad did to her.

Edited by Erureido
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IS should just make a game starring a female lord with no male lords to hog the spotlight already. Bonus points if she's well written!

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46 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Honestly, I think one of the main issues with the female lords is that IS just seems really inept at writing for more than one lord at a time, and more often than not it is the female lord who suffers in that case. I'd like to see a solo female lord to see if IS can actually write a female lord if she stands on her own, or if they have an issue writing female leads in general.

Considering that we've had Marth, Roy, and PoR Ike, who had the spotlight to themselves in their game, it's pretty egregious that we haven't had one stand-alone lord who is a girl.

I disagree because the lords from the games where they have shared spotlight are more intriguing, better developed and better written than Roy, a guy who has the spotlight to himself. 

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1 minute ago, Icelerate said:

I disagree because the lords from the games where they have shared spotlight are more intriguing, better developed and better written than Roy, a guy who has the spotlight to himself. 

Being better developed and better written than Roy is not a badge of honour lol.

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Just now, Refa said:

Being better developed and better written than Roy is not a badge of honour lol.

Being a sole protagonist doesn't mean better writing and the post I quoted mentioned him as an example of a solo protagonist which I'm presuming means he thinks that is a good example. I still don't see how sharing spotlight means the lord is worse than a lord without sharing spotlight. 

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26 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Plus, you'd think that in the span of 15 games they'd have at least one solo female lord. Apparently not.

Doesn't Lyn have an entire mode to herself? Also, female Corrin exists.

 

Edited by NinjaMonkey
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37 minutes ago, Troykv said:

I think the reason behind that is the nature of the protagonist makes it easier to connect with the player... and the usual player of this kind kind of stuff is likely into power fantasy stuff or whatever... so... the male character being always the center point makes sense.

To be honest, I could not connect to a Lord anyway. xD I still think the most connectable character is Ike and even he shows some sort of Leadership character.

That aside, I would be happy about a Fire Emblem game in which they give us just one Female Lord who is the lead. And other games like Tales of Berseria or Valkyrie Profile have a Female Lead which are just right and likable, at least for me. I think Fire emblem can do this too. How nice would a female lead who is a bit more bad ass in Fire emblem be, but I guess this would never happen..they aren't exactly trying to do something like that. And I am quite skeptical about Edelgard at the moment, her Design which is ok aside I just have fear that she is just another Side Kick Lord who can barely shine. 

If they could pull something surprising of while using an avatar I would be happy though, at least her using an Axe may be the first step.

Also I think that Fates was a bit of a missed opportunity for that, Xander and Ryouma are ok as lords but not very outstanding for me. I wouldn't have mind Xander to be switched out with Camilla, of course her character would have need to be adjusted to this position. Still, Ryouma and Xander both lack something for me. I never found Ryouma really interesting. There are some parts in Fates I don't understand anyway from the view of writing. Scarlet was a good support to make Ryouma more interesting and they just messed up big for me, felt like he didn't develop that much.

At least these 2 should be an example that not only female lords suffer, but overall they need to take more care about female Lords, that I agree that they are worse off.

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