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mangasdeouf

Bad units you said?

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Hi players,

Subaki is said to be one of the worst units in the game. I wanted to see what I could do to help him get awesome or at least good. I searched for spear fighter, basara, oni savage and oni chieftain on the wikia and with his personal growths I decided to make him an oni savage into chieftain in my revelations run. Well, he class changed just after Rinkah's recruitment chapter (which was a real pain in hard beginner because ennemies are designed around MU's fighting ability while your other units are 3 levels or even 4 levels lower than random ennemies level 8 in this chapter, taking 15 damage per attack with those f***ing ninjas all around the map debuffing your def into abyss, MU was literally OHKOing everyone except a few with dragonstone, +mag -lck, while taking little to no damage) and my level 8 Subaki had 17 def, 21 with Rinkah pair up, along with 11 str and 16 with Rinkah, and 9 spd, 15 skl, 27 HP (now 31 level 13, with 12 or 13 str, 17+ skill, 12 spd, more than 20 def, 6 or 7 res). That means My Subaki takes literally 0 damage 5 levels lower than my Corrin. Sure it was a pain getting him through the next chapter's Mjolnir sorcerer but well, he still had around 14 HP after getting hit, and my female servant weakened the sorcerers near the boss so he could kill them in one throwing axe +1 hit (largely overkilling them). He soloed this chapter except for the sorcerers mentionned and the boss (the mjolnir sorcerer's skull got split in half in 1 hit BTW). Subaki's got 3 magic for now, I hope he grows more so I can give the spirit dust to my incoming Basara or something like that Beruka who will marry MU. Gotta spend a few levels as a dark flyer for magic growth and speed+res.

Why hybrid/magic-oriented Subaki and Beruka? I wanted some real tanky units to fit the role of magic weapon users. Magic weapons give -20 dodge (or avoid, can't remember which is what), so giving it to squishy units who double all the time isn't worth. Subaki has darting blow, perfectionnist that makes up for -20 dodge or avoid, Beruka has enough speed as a dark flyer and has more res than Subaki so she can tank on both damage types just from personnal def + Dark flyer res. Subaki has a good HP bar and oni savage makes it insanely high (70 or 75% growth), meanwhile his 30% str get to 50% with oni savage and his magic growth is still 30%, no waste in his already good skill (50% personal) and 65% def growth with 10% res growth (why even waste anything into his forever shitty stat anyway?). Beruka will get both seals from lance fighter and lance master, so she will make any unit that's not dead perfectly trash for the next PP. MU's personnal skill will grant her +2 def/res anyway soa few levels into dark flyer won't hurt too much her def.

Hinata: Samurai Hinata is like samurai Benny (both have innate 15% growth in speed, which is the lowest in the game), why even use it when you have much better units for that role? Blacksmith gives him enough of everything to be a good frontliner (except res but it's not his role). It's the perfect balance between swordmaster and master of arms, good hp, good str, good skl, good def and enough spd to get some spd level ups if needed. Anyway with 55-60% def growth and his base, not many will damage him on the physical front. Also swords are actually his worst weapon type, since Nohrian swords don't give anything while hoshidan swords sacrifice his only good stat (def) aside hp to get his lowest trash tier stat (spd) a +1 bonus (not enough to stay relevant but that -1 res is gonna hurt him and early -1 def isn't too funny to suffer from against those 25 damage axe users in EP). His good HP is helped by blacksmith so why not? Hero is good too but maybe a little too much speed oriented for him compared with blacksmith, correct me if I'm wrong. Class swap Hinata and Oboro and both would be amazing from the get go though...

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Just to point that some units are told to be bad, like it's some common knowledge, while they could outperform many other units which are considered good. Subaki is said to be a trash combat unit, but just reclassing him ASAP into Oni savage makes him a beast (like Saizo). He gains so much from this class that it's just perfectly fit for him, and his legendary bad strength is completely fixed with 50% growth (nearly FE13 Chrom's strength growth BTW, which is said to be good to very good), better base def and str, insane def, he's a knight with 5 movement, better base speed (+darting blow), better HP growth than most of Fates' cast and his high personal skill and growth make him patch oni's skill problems and use effectively all of the clubs (even the great club with 45% acc and 55% crit since he has very good accuracy himself and can benefit from many accuracy pair ups if not paired up with Rinkah for dat insane str/def combination).

His base class set doesn't fit him at all but oni is all he wants (just like blacksmith is one of if not THE best class for Hinata to strengthen his strength while patching the patchable issues, namely his abysmal skill). That's why it has "bad units" in its title.

In my current playthrough of rev, i'm playing MU with MILF wife (I gave her 1 dragon shield + 2 dusts + 2 herbs and she outperforms many units, on par defensively with Camilla while having more str, spd and mag and even more HP (I think I gave her the robe too, not sure) so she went lv 5 kinshi for dat skill then basara (I got trolled while recruiting Kana though, she had premonition as her inherited skill but when MILF-sama got seal def, it changed before I recruited her...so I got seal def Kana instead of free exp Kana and I was already planning on getting draconic hex...so seal def is rather useless on a unit with magic sword, killer sword and dragonstone (maybe I'll give her tomes so she can use horse spirit like mommy, daddy doesn't need it since he has 24 def as a nohr noble after going through 4 levels of ninja and nearly 10 levels of spear fighter/spear master, but he has only 13 res ughh, plus he'll get level 2 sword soon I'm currently waiting to recruit furballs for chapter 14)))))). Did I close all the parenthesis? Not sure. )))))) Better ^^

I'm pairing Keaton with Kaden while farming Keaton to level 8 (lv 5 wolf then lv 8 hero) for Kaden to get some physical bulk before he goes back to nine tails (and Sol ofc). This way I can give Mozu!Selkie either more survivability or better offence (Mozu 7 villager>archer>sniper>merchant for stats, anyway the inheritance will be quick draw and selkie will go to villager for 1 level to get aptitude, I wonder if better odds+ sol is better than quick draw + gamble, either way she's gonna be insane). Keaton will stay hero (or lodestar but I think hero suits him more) since wolfsegner is uggly, Camille!Velouria will go hero too if I can't get her a ninja support (or maybe great lord or even dread fighter for better balance in bulk and better look as a furry shuriken thrower). Fur wins everyday day.

PS: corrected the awful writing of §3.

Edited by mangasdeouf

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  ... I have so many questions... I don't even...

On 24/11/2018 at 2:11 PM, mangasdeouf said:

(which was a real pain in hard beginner because ennemies are designed around MU's fighting ability while your other units are 3 levels or even 4 levels lower than random ennemies level 8 in this chapter, taking 15 damage per attack with those f***ing ninjas all around the map debuffing your def into abyss, MU was literally OHKOing everyone except a few with dragonstone, +mag -lck, while taking little to no damage)

2 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

(I got trolled while recruiting Kana though, she had premonition as her inherited skill but when MILF-sama got seal def, it changed before I recruited her...so I got seal def Kana instead of free exp Kana and I was already planning on getting draconic hex...so seal def is rather useless on a unit with magic sword, killer sword and dragonstone (maybe I'll give her tomes so she can use horse spirit like mommy, daddy doesn't need it since he has 24 def as a nohr noble after going through 4 levels of ninja and nearly 10 levels of spear fighter/spear master, but he has only 13 res ughh, plus he'll get level 2 sword soon I'm currently waiting to recruit furballs for chapter 14)))))). Did I close all the parenthesis? Not sure. )))))) Better ^^

I'm pairing Keaton with Kaden while farming Keaton to level 8 (lv 5 wolf then lv 8 hero) for Kaden to get some physical bulk before he goes back to nine tails (and Sol ofc). This way I can give Mozu!Selkie either more survivability or better offence (Mozu 7 villager>archer>sniper>merchant for stats, anyway the inheritance will be quick draw and selkie will go to villager for 1 level to get aptitude, I wonder if better odds+ sol is better than quick draw + gamble, either way she's gonna be insane). Keaton will stay hero (or lodestar but I think hero suits him more) since wolfsegner is uggly, Camille!Velouria will go hero too if I can't get her a ninja support (or maybe great lord or even dread fighter for better balance in bulk and better look as a furry shuriken thrower). Fur wins everyday day.

PS: corrected the awful writing of §3.

  Why is this all relevant? Are we talking about bad units or random shit happening in your playthrough? Kaden and Keaton are far from top tier units in their respective games for reasons that don't spare them in Revelations (I'd say the same holds true for Velouria, but I don't know the general consensus about her), are you trying to convince us that they can be good if you grind/farm them? Color me impressed

On 24/11/2018 at 2:11 PM, mangasdeouf said:

He soloed this chapter except for the sorcerers mentionned and the boss (the mjolnir sorcerer's skull got split in half in 1 hit BTW)

  Why are you telling us he soloed a chapter and then you immediately tell us he... didn't really solo the chapter?

On 24/11/2018 at 2:11 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Subaki's got 3 magic for now, I hope he grows more so I can give the spirit dust to my incoming Basara or something like that Beruka who will marry MU. Gotta spend a few levels as a dark flyer for magic growth and speed+res.

  Have you ever heard of bases over growths? With 30% Growth your Subaki will have on average 10 Mag before promotion bonus at 20/10 Oni Chieftain, which is basically the endgame; I don't really understand who's gonna spend "a few levels" as a Dark Flyer but how much difference do you think it'll actually make make? 1 point at 20/10? 2 points at 20/15? Dark Flyer is good for Spd+2, but as far as Mag is concerned you'll be better served by investing in Mag Tonics, +Mag pair-ups and Spirit Dusts

On 24/11/2018 at 2:11 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Magic weapons give -20 dodge (or avoid, can't remember which is what), so giving it to squishy units who double all the time isn't worth.

  Why are you concerned with magic weapons tanking your capability to dodgetank in a game that run true RNG for <50% Hit?

On 24/11/2018 at 2:11 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Subaki has darting blow, perfectionnist that makes up for -20 dodge or avoid

  Why are you so hyped for Darting Blow on an EP unit? Why are you talking like Perfectionist makes up for -20 Avd when it's gonna be gone after a single hit? A hit that Subaki is rarely gonna dodge due to his generally bad avoid and Fates RNG system? Why are you so concerned about Subaki dodging hits a few lines after claiming that he takes 0 dmg from enemies? Why does none of this make sense?

On 24/11/2018 at 2:11 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Blacksmith gives him enough of everything to be a good frontliner (except res but it's not his role). It's the perfect balance between swordmaster and master of arms, good hp, good str, good skl, good def and enough spd to get some spd level ups if needed

  Why are you so enamored with tanky characters? At what pace are you playing the game? And WHAT game are you playing? Why are you not using Ryoma/Scarlet/Xander for tanks with either utility or better offense (god it's been so much since I last played Fates, what other viable tanky characters are there in Revelations? Fuga I think?)?

On 24/11/2018 at 2:11 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Also swords are actually his worst weapon type, since Nohrian swords don't give anything while hoshidan swords sacrifice his only good stat (def) aside hp to get his lowest trash tier stat (spd) a +1 bonus (not enough to stay relevant but that -1 res is gonna hurt him and early -1 def isn't too funny to suffer from against those 25 damage axe users in EP).

  Why are you telling us that Swords are his "worst weapon type" after telling us that Blacksmith is a good reclass for him? What weapons is he gonna use? Those Naginatas for +1 Def/Res that he has no rank for? Axes with his E rank upon promotion? Ever heard of E rank hell?

On 24/11/2018 at 2:11 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Class swap Hinata and Oboro and both would be amazing from the get go though...

  What do you even mean? Would you like for Oboro and Hinata to change classes? I guess Sword Fighter would fit Hinata better (though I have read multiple times that his base Spd is like enough to get him through almost the whole game if you want to, it's not like Birthright units are starved for +Spd pair-ups and the likes), but why would Oboro be better off in Samurai? Why would anyone want to be a foot-locked swordie in a game where dominating sword users like Ryoma and Corrin (and Silas to an extent) exist?

3 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

while they could outperform many other units which are considered good

  Outperform who? Xander? Ryoma? Corrin? Paladin!Jakob? Camilla? Scarlet? When, in which chapters? With how much investment? Is it really worth it? "Outperform" in what sense? Purely combat-wise? Contribution-wise? Or are we just fetishising b i g n u m b e r s here?

3 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

i'm playing MU with MILF wife (I gave her 1 dragon shield + 2 dusts + 2 herbs and she outperforms many units, on par defensively with Camilla while having more str, spd and mag and even more HP (I think I gave her the robe too, not sure)

  What's so special about any random unit performing good with THAT much favoritism? How can you think Beruka outperforming Camilla after you gave her 5 statboosters (possibly 6) to be outstanding in any way? And why are you calling Beruka a "milf"?

3 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

but just reclassing him ASAP into Oni savage makes him a beast (like Saizo)

  WHY THE HELL ARE YOU RECLASSING FUCKING SAIZO AKA RYOMA JR? He already has good jointime+best weapon type in the game+good stats (only needs help with Spd, not difficult in Birthright, I remember jack shit about him in Rev though)!!!!

3 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

This way I can give Mozu!Selkie either more survivability or better offence (Mozu 7 villager>archer>sniper>merchant for stats

  Why are you going Merchant over Sniper for "stats" when Sniper has far superior offensive stats (and skills, and pair up bonuses)?

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@Koumal8 I gotta give you credit for picking apart his arguments. The issue I have with OP is that he tends to contradict himself - well, that, and most of his points don't make much, if any, sense.

On 12/2/2018 at 1:21 PM, mangasdeouf said:

his high personal skill and growth make him patch oni's skill problems and use effectively all of the clubs (even the great club with 45% acc and 55% crit since he has very good accuracy himself and can benefit from many accuracy pair ups if not paired up with Rinkah for dat insane str/def combination).

Why in the name of Duma would I want to use the "Great" Club??? That accuracy alone is a dealbreaker - anything even remotely evasive is likely going to laugh at your hit rates while you're using it. Having an astronomical critical hit chance doesn't mean a damn when your accuracy is laughably bad to the point where you're more likely to whiff than not. Oh, and Oni Chieftain has the lowest skill cap in the game, which doesn't help its case. Just to put things into perspective, with capped skill and a Great Club, you're only looking at what, 81 hit? Accuracy pair ups aren't gonna do much to shore it up, either... at best, I get like what, 4 extra hit? That's not gonna make a difference. 

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