Units that are good in spite of their class

[Wuzzy]

Some that come to mind are...

Ayra/Lewyn/Ced (all amazing foot units, the problem is that they are foot units in a game where move is everything)

Duessel (Ephraim route Duessel specifically is very, very good still but, Great Knights are just an awkward class with their move stat)

Louise (would've been a lot better if she wasn't a sniper, she has a automatic A support with Pent, so I can see her being much better if she was in a different class)

[Slumber]

10 minutes ago, Lunarly said:

Duessel (Ephraim route Duessel specifically is very, very good still but, Great Knights are just an awkward class with their move stat)

Are you talking just for FE8? Because Great Knights are good to great in almost all of their appearances in the franchise. 

[Wuzzy]

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

Are you talking just for FE8? Because Great Knights are good to great in almost all of their appearances in the franchise. 

yeah just fe8 Great Knights, suffering an extra 2 move for all 3 weapon types isn't worth it imo

[Ertrick36]

6 hours ago, Slumber said:

This is more a list of units who are bad because of their class, and not good in spite of them.

Oh, right...  I was probably really tired when I typed that, so I didn't read things properly...  That, or I thought those units were better than they actually are.  Don't really remember.

 

In that case, I'd say all the Isaach characters in Genealogy except the substitutes fit the bill.  Their biggest drawback is the inability to move far, but beyond that they all can wreck shit pretty hard.  That still includes Larcei and Ulster - they're ungodly even as-is and especially with someone like Lex as their father.  And Jamka manages to be a better archer than Midir despite the obvious disadvantage of not having a horse - although Briggid is still clearly the best archer of the first generation (and is also held back by lack of a horse - really, every infantry unit in Genealogy is).

Julian in the Archanea games is a pretty solid combatant, and so is Feena, even stuck with the traditionally flimsy classes they are.  They're good enough that they don't need the benefit of class change.

I'd also still list Effie and Felicia.  Effie has solid offense and defense, she'd just be better off being more mobile and oriented towards offense.  And Felicia - by her very nature as a prepromote who levels like an unpromoted unit - is good, but still would be best suited in a magic combat class instead of being forced to grind to knife rank C to have combat abilities outside of healbotting.  Jakob's sort of the same, but in the other direction - he'd work better with a class emphasizing physical combat more, such as either of the cavalier classes he can heart seal into.  And I'd say Ryoma - yes, Ryoma - could be better served in a different class.  Sure, that'd mean removing Vantage and Astra, but in my mind he'd get a class that helped his defense (negating the need for Vantage) and raised his mobility.  Basically, he'd be better off in Xander's shoes - and might even wind up better than Xander for it.

Can't really think of any for Awakening, mostly because the vast majority of Awakening characters are in a general "decent" category (or in the case of children, there's too much variation to make a comprehensive analysis), with only the main characters, dark mages, and pegasus knights setting themselves apart.  I'd maybe say Gaius is good in spite of his class in a similar way as Julian is.  And Frederick - in spite of being stuck with the red-headed step child of the cavalier class line - manages to distinguish himself as one of the better Jeigans, practically being mandatory for Lunatic runs.

Fire Emblem Echoes/Gaiden is an even trickier game to find these kinds of units because a lot of the time it's the class that really makes the unit rather than the other way around, or any of the units that are good (like Python or the older Whitewings) already start in classes that are really good.  I suppose Genny is rather tough for a cleric, and... uh, Kliff's really good in spite of him being a villager?  Gaiden sort of goes by its own rules, so none of the standards from the other games really apply here.  I'd say pretty much every unit in a bad class is equally terrible - and that's essentially referring exclusively to the soldier class line, because that's honestly the only bad class in the game (due mostly to a limited selection of classes more than anything).

[Shadow Mir]

On 12/3/2018 at 10:41 AM, Von Ithipathachai said:

What I meant is that while you say you don't mean to start an argument, you very often do end up starting an argument whenever somebody says Charlotte is anything but hot burning trash.

I guess, but we're talking about the same Charlotte who suffers from most of the typical problems axe infantry suffer from, in addition to other problems that combine with said issues to equal her only being good for warming the bench. 

On 12/2/2018 at 9:05 PM, Ertrick36 said:

I know, I've listed a lot of armor knights, but without the level design to properly complement their strongest values as defenders, they all kind of suck.  It's most egregious in Genealogy and Awakening, the former because it has giant maps and the latter because the maps are usually open enough that there aren't a whole lot of good choke points.

I would say Binding Blade is almost as bad as Genealogy in terms of how bad knights have it - the maps may not be Genealogy-level huge, but they're big enough that knights probably won't get to do much of anything.

[Hawkwing]

Kellam is definitely a reliable unit. He starts out with high defense, the defense bonus he gives his pair-up partner is no joke, and he can easily be swapped out with them to tank the enemy forces if it becomes to risky for his partner. For better or worse, Kellam works best in conjunction with the pair up mechanic to make up for the shortcomings of the knight class. That doesn't mean that he's poor outside of pair-up; He's a good tank through and through, and while Awakenings map design doesn't allow for many opportunities for bottleneck strategies, it does allow for Kellam to take on and defeat enemies that gang up on from all angles. It' is ironic that despite the difficulties his teammates have in spotting him, the player shouldn't overlook using Kellam.

If we're including reclassing, than Gaius and Panne. The thief class is really only useful for the skills, but Gauis has one of the best examples in the game for how reclassing can be done well. Making him a myrmidon legit has no downsides for him, while making Gaius a fighter sacrifices some speed for some much needed strength, and he can eventually promote into a well-rounded hero to ensure his sword rank doesn't go to waste. Meanwhile, while the Taguel class has several double-edged swords (6 move is useful in early game, but becomes the standard when people start promoting. Ignoring the weapon triangle has it's ups and downs, and while the stat boosts aren't as powerful as the ones manaketes get, it also means that Panne and Yarne aren't as reliant on them as Nowi and Nah), making Panne a thief gives her some a useful mobility skill, and in the wyvern class line, there has never been a playthrough of mine where she has not capped strength.

Lukas and Forsyth are also really good units in Gaiden and Echoes. They may not always be able to reach the front lines (although I never really found that an issue, personally), when they do fight, they hit hard and can take a hit, and that's all they need to do. Using Warp, even in its nerfed form in SoV, helps alleviate the mobility issue they have somewhat.

[henrymidfields]

On 03/12/2018 at 12:33 PM, pannacotta__ said:

That's fair, but Swordmasters typically are terrible. Even Fir isn't all that good. 

FE6 is probably the exception where you'd actually want the swordies (and really, any unit that can dodge tank and/or reliably hit like Sue, Shin, or Clarine).

Edited December 9, 2018 by henrymidfields

[UNLEASH IT]

Ryoma. In a game where sub 50-hit rates land more often than not and enemies actually have decent hit rates on harder difficulties, being a frail melee unit that relies on avoid is not a good strategy. Fortunately, Ryoma works around that by essentially not being a melee unit. I've never actually used Hana and Hinata.

Edited March 31, 2020 by UNLEASH IT

[Fabulously Olivier]

Zihark and Shinon in Radiant Dawn. 

[FishyFinThing]

I will also mention Dagda in Fire Emblem Thracia 776.

He's a warrior class unit. Unlike most warrior class who always have hit issue for using axes, Dagda make up for his bad weapon type by trying to hit more. You also have a hero axe in the first chapter to make him even better.

 He's also a prepromoted unit with better base than almost everyone early game. Which mean you don't need to train him as much as most unit.

All of that combine and you have an excellent capturing unit who will go around smacking people and steal all their item.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Geitz, Nolan, and Hawkeye are good examples of great characters in the typically bad Warrior/Berserker class lines.

 

Geitz is particularly notable because the other warriors in FE7 are so poor.

[vanguard333]

54 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Geitz, Nolan, and Hawkeye are good examples of great characters in the typically bad Warrior/Berserker class lines.

I wouldn't count Nolan; Warrior was improved in Radiant Dawn by being the only class other than archers that can use crossbows, i.e. instant defeat to any flying unit. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

8 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I wouldn't count Nolan; Warrior was improved in Radiant Dawn by being the only class other than archers that can use crossbows, i.e. instant defeat to any flying unit. 

I would still count Nolan. Because even if you consider Warriors good in RD, he's still a great unit in another category known for being bad - the Dawn Brigade.

[vanguard333]

4 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I would still count Nolan. Because even if you consider Warriors good in RD, he's still a great unit in another category known for being bad - the Dawn Brigade.

Good point. In that case, I would also count Edward: the best swordmaster in Radiant Dawn, but he's stuck in the Dawn Brigade. 

[ciphertul]

20 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Good point. In that case, I would also count Edward: the best swordmaster in Radiant Dawn, but he's stuck in the Dawn Brigade. 

I would disagree, Mia is better swordmaster but I’ll say that it might be preference, I say Fiona, while paladin isn’t considered a bad class it is for her. She is a pretty great unit if you baby her for a while.

And Ilyana, her class just sucks for her but she makes one hell of a magical assassin 

Edited April 1, 2020 by ciphertul
Addon

[ping]

I don't think Rutger and the FE10 swordmasters fit the criteria from the OP - while SM is a shitty class in quite a few games of the series, it's not really a detriment in FE6 or FE10.
In Binding Blade, if you're locked to a single weapon type, you would want it to be a swordlock (well, Anima's even better, but Swords are the next best thing) because hitrates matter, 1-2 range (other than Anima) is highly unreliable and swords have the best effective weapons among the three main types. And I actually think the +30 crit is a fairly big deal - with 60% crit (i.e. using a killing edge), the risk not to crit at least once in a double attack is only 16%, so it's something you can almost rely on, given the usual numbers you face in FE6. 😉 With the 45% crit you'd have with the usual +15 crit, the risk of failure would almost be doubled (30%).
And in Radiant Dawn, while swords are the weakest of the three main weapon types, being locked to them is a lot less damning as it is in FE7-9. I like to bring a TB or two in the tower because they don't need Nasir's help to double Auras.

Continuing to be contrary, I don't think Fighter/Warrior is a bad class in many FE games, it's just that the characters in it often suck. Axes tend to be good weapons (starting in FE7, anyway) and Warrior caps are usually quite good. The only fighters that I would say are hindered by their class are Dorcas and Bartre because they don't gain any speed on promotion, which makes their doubling problems even worse. Garcia doesn't have that problem because his Hero promotion does give +2 speed, so I consider him just good (or at least decent) without "despite his class" added.

Units that I think do qualify as "good despite their class":

• Astore. Being a thief means no promotion and therefore no longterm combat potential, but Astore's really quite good on the isles.
• Gonzales. "Good" might be stretching it, but he's honestly not too shabby if you just get him to level 10-15 and promote him, since the lategame is very lance-heavy. Axelock is still a pretty big deal in FE6, which is why this does not conflict with what I wrote earlier. 😉
• Oswin. 4 movement suuuuucks in FE7, but he's really, really good in the earlygame.
• Jaffar. Swordlocked, no horsie, but very good stats, in particular for Cog of Destiny, one of the few instances where speed and accuracy is a real factor in FE7.
• Innes. Only on Eirika's route, tbh, but there he's really pretty useful despite Archer/Sniper being the worst class in Sacred Stones.
• Gatrie. To a lesser degree in PoR where he's similar to Oswin in the earlygame, but nearly worthless when he rejoins. In RD, he's pretty solid despite movement and stat caps (both as General and Marshall) holding him back.
• Volug. In part 1, it's only the lack of 1-2 range holding him back, but in part 3, he's still great despite that and the constant need to grass up because he needs his full transformation bonuses at that point.
• Come to think of it, Lethe, Mordecai, and Muarim are all quite good despite the disadvantages that Laguz have in Path of Radiance. It's not quite as bad as in RD, especially since the Demi Band isn't as crippling as the Wildheart skill, but it's still bad to be locked to a 1 range, steel-tier, unforgeable weapon.

[Fabulously Olivier]

On 3/31/2020 at 1:41 PM, vanguard333 said:

Good point. In that case, I would also count Edward: the best swordmaster in Radiant Dawn, but he's stuck in the Dawn Brigade. 

I'd call Zihark the best. He's a solid prepromote when the Dawn Brigade really needs one.

[AnonymousSpeed]

2 hours ago, ping said:

I don't think Rutger and the FE10 swordmasters fit the criteria from the OP - while SM is a shitty class in quite a few games of the series, it's not really a detriment in FE6 or FE10.

 

2 hours ago, ping said:

Continuing to be contrary, I don't think Fighter/Warrior is a bad class in many FE games, it's just that the characters in it often suck.

Very well said considerations.

It's hard to say Rutger is good despite being a Swordmaster when Swordmasters are actually good in FE6. When you have very decent prepromoted axe users like Hawkeye and Geitz, it certainly calls into question whether the classes can be blamed for the low speed of the unpromoted examples.

2 hours ago, ping said:

Gonzales. "Good" might be stretching it, but he's honestly not too shabby if you just get him to level 10-15 and promote him, since the lategame is very lance-heavy. Axelock is still a pretty big deal in FE6, which is why this does not conflict with what I wrote earlier.

Elphin Route Gonzales OP, joins at level 11 for instant promoted power.

***

I don't think I have much to say that hasn't been said already.

Armor Knight has always been a strictly disadvantageous class, but Effie is useful for defense pair up bonuses and her excellent attack power.

Lukas is pretty decent, but that probably has a fair bit to do with all the villagers starting out as total scrubs with 4 move. Lukas is a pretty tough dude with 4 move. His stats are serviceable, he makes good use of the Ridersbane against floods of cavaliers, but he still can't handle witches so he falls off pretty hard as the game progresses. I haven't played the original Gaiden but apparently he is quite good in that game because of the Speed Ring and Warp rendering his issues non-issues.

Axe using classes are pretty bad in FE6 (I would agree with Ping that this isn't really the case in later games, but FE6's axe hit rates are problematic for a lot of units), but I actually think Garret is...maybe not a definite "good," but he's alright. He has, like, 16 base skill on Hard Mode and has enough HP to take a few hits. I also happen to like Garret as a character so maybe I'm just biased.

[vanguard333]

4 hours ago, ciphertul said:

I would disagree, Mia is better swordmaster but I’ll say that it might be preference, I say Fiona, while paladin isn’t considered a bad class it is for her. She is a pretty great unit if you baby her for a while.

19 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I'd call Zihark the best. He's a solid prepromote when the Dawn Brigade really needs one.

I simply meant that, in terms of overall stats and growths, Edward is the best of the three. His problem is his poor availability from being stuck in the Dawn Brigade (hence my statement).

Sure, Zihark's a good prepromote, but my Edward is usually close to Zihark's level by the time I get Zihark. 

[Ether]

When both Mia and Zihark will hit all of their important caps naturally, and are easily given whatever small push they might need by bexp,  it's hard to say that the growth unit with a poor early game is better than they are. 

Edward should shine in the late game as a growth unit but in practice he doesn't get any better stats than them despite his worse start because they both hit the same caps as he does. The only relevant late game stat they don't all hit cap for is resistance, which Edward actually has the least of out of the three.

[Shadow Mir]

On 3/31/2020 at 1:41 PM, vanguard333 said:

Good point. In that case, I would also count Edward: the best swordmaster in Radiant Dawn, but he's stuck in the Dawn Brigade. 

I would sooner say he's bad because for all the effort he needs, he doesn't turn out any better than his competition. It doesn't help that there's no way in the seven hells he'll stack up even remotely favorably to Zihark by the time the latter shows up.

4 hours ago, ping said:

Gonzales. "Good" might be stretching it, but he's honestly not too shabby if you just get him to level 10-15 and promote him, since the lategame is very lance-heavy. Axelock is still a pretty big deal in FE6, which is why this does not conflict with what I wrote earlier.

I would say that he's bad because of his class, not good in spite of it. Being axe-locked is just that detrimental in FE6. He's going to be unreliable no matter what.

[ping]

2 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Very well said considerations.

Thanks!

2 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Axe using classes are pretty bad in FE6 (I would agree with Ping that this isn't really the case in later games, but FE6's axe hit rates are problematic for a lot of units), but I actually think Garret is...maybe not a definite "good," but he's alright. He has, like, 16 base skill on Hard Mode and has enough HP to take a few hits. I also happen to like Garret as a character so maybe I'm just biased.

Yeah, he's a decent filler unit with zero investment required (beyond fielding Lilina to recruit him, I guess), which really isn't too bad. I was actually considering Bartre for similar reasons, but since Warrior gives access to bows for when you need the hitrate, it's actually a damn good class to be in for a FE6 character.

57 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would say that he's bad because of his class, not good in spite of it. Being axe-locked is just that detrimental in FE6. He's going to be unreliable no matter what.

Lategame is pretty lance-heavy and HM!Gonzales' accuracy against those is actually comparable to Allen's after promotion. Gonzales with a Killer Axe on a mountain in chapter 21 is a sight for sore eyes. He certainly has his problems: Things become significantly less glorious once his enemy doesn't have a lance and he's too fat to be carried around; and of course he's really unreliable when he joins because it's still Axe Country then, so it's a bit of a pain to get him to promotion.
But once he gets his +5 Skl bonus and as long as he retains weapon triangle advantage, he's pretty fucking bonkers. Awesome Str, awesome Spd, maxed HP, reasonable Def. Really fun unit once he gets rolling. Just don't take him to Sacae.

Edited April 1, 2020 by ping

[Shadow Mir]

58 minutes ago, ping said:

Lategame is pretty lance-heavy and HM!Gonzales' accuracy against those is actually comparable to Allen's after promotion. Gonzales with a Killer Axe on a mountain in chapter 21 is a sight for sore eyes. He certainly has his problems: Things become significantly less glorious once his enemy doesn't have a lance and he's too fat to be carried around; and of course he's really unreliable when he joins because it's still Axe Country then, so it's a bit of a pain to get him to promotion.
But once he gets his +5 Skl bonus and as long as he retains weapon triangle advantage, he's pretty fucking bonkers. Awesome Str, awesome Spd, maxed HP, reasonable Def. Really fun unit once he gets rolling. Just don't take him to Sacae.

You do realize that line of thought is why most underleveled units are bad (ergo, having to endure the bad parts before getting to the good)? Also, this assumes that one, that I'm willing to invest in a unit with Stormtrooper level accuracy in a game where accuracy is actually a concern, two, that said unit is seeing a promotion (remember that he needs the same promotion item as Rutger and Deke), and three, that what he does against lances makes up for being hot burning trash against literally everything else. That's a lot to ask. Too much, as far as I'm concerned. Even in hard mode, I'd say it's easy to do better than Gonzales.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[AnonymousSpeed]

That's why y'all gotta go Elphin Route. Gonzales can then promote as soon as he joins you.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

That's why y'all gotta go Elphin Route. Gonzales can then promote as soon as he joins you.

Which does jack shit to save him being being a pile of trash. Also, promoting him over Rutger or Deke is a flat-out losing trade. Not to mention the low experience gain will prevent him from improving quickly. Even when promoted at 20/1, his accuracy is already dicey; how do you think he does when promoted early? Hint: He's even worse off.

TL;DR Promoting him early is not a good defense, nor is it a good idea.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Shadow Mir