How does Desaix Know Alm's True Heritage?

[vanguard333]

When I looked back on the story of Shadows of Valentia, I realized something that confused me: how does Desaix know Alm is Rudolf's son?

Rudolf gave Alm to Mycen to protect Alm; his very existence was supposed to be a secret known only to them. Sure, the fact that Rudolf and Mycen were old friends was fairly common knowledge, but Rudolf having a kid at all was supposed to be a complete secret. 

And yet, when Desaix hears from Fernand about a kid named Alm that's Mycen's grandson, he has this to say:

Desaix: …What? Mycen’s grandson?!

Fernand: Indeed. Clive has thrown all of our ideals at the feet of the unworthy. He’s made the boy a figurehead just to leverage some decrepit hero’s name. Well, I say damn them all! There. You have my story. Now kill me and be done with it.

Desaix: But this doesn’t make sense. Mycen didn’t have any… Ah… Now I see this for what it is. Rudolf, you villainous dastard…

 

I understand knowing Mycen never had kids and figuring something was up, but immediately concluding that Rudolf has something to do with it is rather odd. It could be excused as just him thinking Rudolf's sabotaging him and not that he's figured out Alm's true heritage, but, when you defeat him in Act 3, he says this:

Desaix: Damn you, Mycen… You think to…hand Zofia over to Rudolf’s pup…? T-traitorous dastard…!

 

How does he know? It's strongly implied that Jedah doesn't know until he hears about Alm having the brand. Yet Desaix is able to figure it out? How does one jump from "Mycen never had kids" to "this kid is Rudolf's secret son that no one knows even exists". 

[Dragoncat]

I'm gonna chalk it up to the devs not thinking through enough, and just wanting to throw some foreshadowing in.

Really though, how did Rudolf know his kid would have the brand? Who was Alm's mother, and why was there not a celebration involved? Surely the emperor's lady being pregnant would be cause for celebration. It looks like Rudolf had some way of knowing things and hid his partner from the public, as well as the pregnancy.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Dragoncat

[Anacybele]

Yeah, this reminds me of the foreshadowing I used to hint at one of my fic's major characters being an unknown royal. An antagonist spills it, sort of. But I at least also had an explanation for why this guy knew. xP So this is probably just what Dcat said.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Anacybele

[Nym]

It was probably some poor foreshadowing of the devs's part.

Reminds me of the 'double' excuse Slyde spits at you if you defeat Desaix in Act 1.

[BrightBow]

Desaix death quote in the original Gaiden showed that he was aware of the connection between Alm and Rudolf. Which wasn't much of a problem in Gaiden, given the game's barebone script. But here they no doubt struggled to find a natural way for Desaix to learn that story.

Edited December 19, 2018 by BrightBow

[May]

I'm sorry, but referring to someone's child as a pup is throwing me off.

[SoulWeaver]

2 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

Really though, how did Rudolf know his kid would have the brand? Who was Alm's mother, and why was there not a celebration involved? Surely the emperor's lady being pregnant would be cause for celebration. It looks like Rudolf had some way of knowing things and hid his partner from the public, as well as the pregnancy.

Can't speak for the hidden Empress, but there is a Memory Prism of Rudolf handing Alm to Mycen. Considering Lucina has the Brand at less than a year old in Awakening, it's safe to say Alm would have had it either at birth or developed it shortly afterwards, and thus that Rudolf would have noticed it.

As for the OP, it's possible that Rudolf, contrary to Dcat's suggestion, didn't hide his wife, but spread some rumor about the baby dying young after sending Alm away, and Desaix heard the rumor and that Mycen disappeared around that time, and simply connected the dots upon hearing about a particular unmarried man's unique grandson.

[Dragoncat]

10 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

Can't speak for the hidden Empress, but there is a Memory Prism of Rudolf handing Alm to Mycen. Considering Lucina has the Brand at less than a year old in Awakening, it's safe to say Alm would have had it either at birth or developed it shortly afterwards, and thus that Rudolf would have noticed it.

I did see this memory prism. But since Alm's mother was never mentioned, I thought that Rudolf may have known the brand would show up in his kid and hid his wife.

[vanguard333]

12 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

As for the OP, it's possible that Rudolf, contrary to Dcat's suggestion, didn't hide his wife, but spread some rumor about the baby dying young after sending Alm away, and Desaix heard the rumor and that Mycen disappeared around that time, and simply connected the dots upon hearing about a particular unmarried man's unique grandson.

Perhaps. It would've been nice if the game mentioned what happened to Rudolf's wife. If she died during childbirth, it would've been easier for Rudolf to claim that the child died as well. It would've also been nicer if someone brought up whether the kid was claimed to be dead, or if Rudolf never revealed that he existed.

[Acacia Sgt]

I could see this plausible, actually.

First, I'd like to point out that Desaix's line more or less exists in the original Gaiden as well. However, it was from an NPC at Zofia's Castle:

Quote

Man:
You’re General Mycen’s grandson?
But the general shouldn’t have had any kin…
N-no way, that rumor was for real!?
N… No, sorry. I don’t know anything…

This reveals that despite Rudolf trying to hide Alm's birth, it wasn't perfect, and thus rumors began of his existence. This makes it plausible that Desaix could've also figured it out in the original Gaiden. Him having this line in the remake it's to show without a doubt that he had also heard the rumors, thus explaining how he had figure it out by the time you fight him in Act III.

[vanguard333]

9 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I could see this plausible, actually.

First, I'd like to point out that Desaix's line more or less exists in the original Gaiden as well. However, it was from an NPC at Zofia's Castle:

Man:
You’re General Mycen’s grandson?
But the general shouldn’t have had any kin…
N-no way, that rumor was for real!?
N… No, sorry. I don’t know anything…

This reveals that despite Rudolf trying to hide Alm's birth, it wasn't perfect, and thus rumors began of his existence. This makes it plausible that Desaix could've also figured it out in the original Gaiden. Him having this line in the remake it's to show without a doubt that he had also heard the rumors, thus explaining how he had figure it out by the time you fight him in Act III.

That would work, and it would actually help the worldbuilding a lot. But neither Desaix nor anyone else ever mentions any rumours in the remake; he just goes from "Mycen never had kids" to, "Rudolf's pup". They cut the line about rumours, when they should've kept it; maybe even modify it a little and throw it into Desaix's lines, like this:

Desaix: …What? Mycen’s grandson?!

Fernand: Indeed. Clive has thrown all of our ideals at the feet of the unworthy. He’s made the boy a figurehead just to leverage some decrepit hero’s name. Well, I say damn them all! There. You have my story. Now kill me and be done with it.

Desaix: But this doesn’t make sense. Mycen didn’t have any… Could the rumour have been true? Ah… Now I see this for what it is. Rudolf, you villainous dastard… (Serenesforest isn't letting me remove the underline, bold or italicize)

 

Furthermore, they could've fleshed out when Jedah learns the truth as well. It's implied that he puts two and two together when he hears about Alm's brand, but it is never really made clear. Perhaps, during his brief conversation with Duma, they could've added something like:

Jedah: At long last my lord Duma, we have found him: the second Brand-Bearer. The child that was hidden from us has finally been found. Shall I bring him to you, my lord? Or shall we let him come to us...

Edited December 19, 2018 by vanguard333

[Hawkwing]

Foreshadowing on the developers part that they didn't do with the subtlety or thoughtfulness they should have.

The best I can think of how Desaix knew that Alm was Rudolfs son is that he knew that Mycen was formerly very close friends with Rudolf before the former became a knight for Zofia. He also may have known that Celica had the Brand, which a prophesy states only the royal family would have. When Slayde attacked Ram village, they learned that Mycen was protecting Celica, and probably knew of the brands.

It's far fetched, but Desaix put two and two together that if Mycen had a "grandson", the kid would have either been A. some random orphan he adopted or B. someone else's child who trusted him enough to raise their own son. And since the prophesy stated that two children born to the royal families would end the gods, chances are that Rudolfs child would have had to have the brand, and that he''d need to hide his son due to the Duma Faithful being more fanatical and dangerous than Mila's followers. Again, it's far fetched, and requires some deep thinking on Desaix's part, but it's not implausible he came to the conclusion.

3 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

Really though, how did Rudolf know his kid would have the brand? Who was Alm's mother, and why was there not a celebration involved? Surely the emperor's lady being pregnant would be cause for celebration. It looks like Rudolf had some way of knowing things and hid his partner from the public, as well as the pregnancy.

The brand is on Alm's hand. As mentioned above, Rudolf was aware that there was some prophesy regarding two children with brands that would bring an end to the gods. Later, he heard that Celica was born with a brand in Zofia. Even if the Duma Faithful didn't degrade into a cult at that point, Rudolf knew that some of the more fanatical members would be very willing to kill a child if it meant saving their god, and in the Valentian Accordion, Rudolf already knew that Dumas sanity was failing, so he decided that the best course of action would be to send his child away.

Given that Alm's mother is never mentioned, nor does Rudolf have any other children (Berkut, his nephew, was next in line to the throne, after all), I'd go the route that she either died during childbirth or something else entirely only a short time after Alm's was born. That way, Rudolf could either say that the child died during birth, or of sickness only a while after he was alive.

2 hours ago, Nym said:

Reminds me of the 'double' excuse Slyde spits at you if you defeat Desaix in Act 1.

That was something they probably kept in just because it was so silly in the original. At the very least, it helps establish that Desaix is a coward no matter how you beat the level.

[X-Naut]

Desaix probably knew of Mycen's history as a former Rigelian knight and Rudolf's BFF. It wouldn't be common knowledge, but as a prominent noble of Zofia it's something Desaix would be party to.

(aaand hawkwing just beat me to it...)

[NobodiePichu]

“Gr... Mycen! Is he planning to Give Zofia to Rudolf's brat–? Damn traitor!!”
—Desaix's death quote in Chapter 3 in Gaiden

 

so really its just a case of information that was in the original that could stand to be fleshed out more. Not that im particularly crying mind, i feel they handled it well enough by desaix simply connecting the dots when he heard about mycens 'grandson'. Desaix is a smart cookie after all and it would be fairly well known that mycen was a rigelian knight in the past, hell might have even been plenty of rumors that mycen was good friends with rudolf as well since it seems the kind of thing hard to keep quite.

[Acacia Sgt]

31 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

That would work, and it would actually help the worldbuilding a lot. But neither Desaix nor anyone else ever mentions any rumours in the remake; he just goes from "Mycen never had kids" to, "Rudolf's pup". They cut the line about rumours, when they should've kept it; maybe even modify it a little and throw it into Desaix's lines, like this:

Possible. The man in Zofia Castle is still there, and still brings up as well about Mycen not having grandchildren. He also doesn't bring up the rumors. It's hard to say if it's a retcon or if they didn't want to bring it up as part of the foreshadowing. Keep in mind that Alm now reacts to both the man's words and Desaix's death quote. They probably thought the rumor was uneeded or made things easier to figure it out. Who knows.

Personally, I'd stand the rumor must still exist in the remake, it simply goes unsaid. As others points out here already, there's the prophecy, so if you know one royal family has a brand, then chances are the other could've as well. It's a guess which ended up being right, simple as that.

If I recall, the Valentia Accordeon states Rudolf also has a brand. Considering no brand usrfaced accordinly in Zofia, it's likely this was something expected for a while. The moment both kingdoms get branded children, you know the prophecy has begun. If only one shows up, or none do, then you know it's still not time.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Acacia Sgt

[Etrurian emperor]

Well Desaix has been the most powerful man in Zophia for quite a long time. The Zophian spy network probably reported to him rather than lazy Lima so rumors about a covered up birth at the Rigel court and a mysteriously missing baby might have reached his ears that way. 

[Hanes]

5 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

Really though, how did Rudolf know his kid would have the brand? Who was Alm's mother, and why was there not a celebration involved? Surely the emperor's lady being pregnant would be cause for celebration. It looks like Rudolf had some way of knowing things and hid his partner from the public, as well as the pregnancy.

Because it's a mark? it was a birth mark so that's obvious.

[eclipse]

Before Alm was born, there wouldn't have been much reason to hide the pregnancy.  Perhaps his mom died protecting him or something, which prompted Rudolf to send his son away.

Since I'm positive that there would be spies from Zofia in Rigel, it wouldn't be too farfetched to have Desaix learn of Rudolf's wife passing.  When Mycen shows up with an unannounced grandson, which would be about the right age for Rudolf's son, Desaix assumes the rumor is true (in this case, it is).

Or perhaps Alm looks a hell of a lot like Rudolf in his younger days?

Edited December 19, 2018 by eclipse

[Dragoncat]

1 hour ago, Critical Sniper said:

Because it's a mark? it was a birth mark so that's obvious.

I meant that Rudolf would know the mark would be there before Alm was born.

[Hawkwing]

25 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

I meant that Rudolf would know the mark would be there before Alm was born.

He didn't. Rudolf just put two and two together really quickly when he saw that Alm had the Brand when he was born, and later heard that Celica was born with one too. Rudolf already knew that Duma was going mad at this point in the Valentian Accordion, so Alm's birth reminded him of the prophesy, and he took quick and decisive action to put an overarching plan in place.

[Hanes]

41 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

I meant that Rudolf would know the mark would be there before Alm was born.

But we are never told that Rudolf knew his son would be the branded, and when he handed Alm to Mycen, his son was obviously already born.